I just purchased a Featherweight Stainless/walnut clasic in 270 from my local shop. I was charged 10% over his invoice.

I kind of always wanted one. I guess the plant closing pushed me over the edge. I am happy with the rifle. I haven't shot it yet, nor do I plan to in the near future. But this gun is going to get hunted.

I DO NOT believe that this is the end of Winchester. The new ones will probably just have SC, FN, or Miroku stamped on them. Who knows, in a few years they may come out with a completely refined product. Still a Model 70, just post 2006.

Buy two of every caliber you don't already have. Your spouse/estate will love you!

quote:

Originally posted by DavidReed:
The M70 Actions were made in SC but final assemblywas still performed in the New Haven plant.

HP,

It is standard practice with licensing agreements that a certain number of units will be made at x license dollers per unit. This is why there is no longer a Coleman brand of folding trailers. Fleetwood manufacturing, who made the Coleman brand for the last 15 years, was not producing or paying for the annual production figures agreed to by them and Coleman Licensing. A long protracted legal battle ensued and there probably will never be a Coleman Brand of folding trailers ever again.

I don't think that the future is so bleak for the M70 and M94. These designs are way to valuable too Olin. I would be certain that the design rights to the pre-64 M70 and push feed M70 belong to Olin as they were designed when Olin was still in the Firearms game. Same for the M94. As for the newer M70 incarnets who knows.

David:

Patents are only good for 10 years. After that, anyone can copy them. Look at the Harris Bipod knockoffs, some of which are exact replicas.

Last week I looked at 'Safari Express' in .375. Good iron sights, matte finish, barrel band, two cross-bolts, ...., pretty good looking rifle for under 1k. Pat said it would be gone in a week, or less, never doubt Pat!

Anybody can produce a Winchester Model 70. They just can't CALL it a Winchester Model 70. to call it Winchester, they have to be licensed, and only Olin can do that (after Herstal's license expires). For an example, look at the near duplicate of the model 70 that CZ makes.

I've heard people say that Herstal is not really Winchester - Olin is Winchester. Well, by that measure, Olin is not Winchester either, in the sense that it is not the original company, that owned the original name Winchester.

Winchester (Herstal, USRAC, Olin) has had quality control problems for YEARS. BUT - the gun is a truly great gun. A great great great gun. It's historic beyond description. The closure of the Connecticut plant is TRAGIC. I've been in a state of mourning every since I heard the news.

Yeah, there will be Winchester brand firearms made. But that is just not the point. They will not say "Made in the USA", and they won't be made in the original Connecticut plant. It just won't be the same. To many of you, that won't make a difference. To me, it does.

They may be better quality, once made in Japan, Belgium, or wherever. And I will buy them. But the original, Made in USA versions, will be "special" from now on!

AZWriter,

Your correct on the patent issue. Though I think that patent protection is up to 22 or 25 years now. I should have more explicit meaning that Olin owns the design and production blueprints for those particular models of firearms.

You know, what is really sad, is that this could have been very different. Winchester could be making guns just like Kimber and Dakota's guns, and prevented them from taking a good portion of their market.

The Kimber could have been a Model 70 Compact. Winchester makes a compact now, but it is not scaled down in the way a Kimber is. Or the Compact COULD have been the standard model, using the large, original model only for magnums.

And of course, Winchester has almost always had a custom gun shop. Had that been done differently, they could have prevented Dakota Arms from taking the high end of the market off.

Those two makers have had to hurt Winchester big time, taking away lots of sales. After all they are only improved Winchester 70's. (OK, much-improved Winchesters).

And Winchester had plenty of time to see those trends coming and to react.

Hindsight is great (and easy for me), but a companies job is to see the future and make it's own trends. Kimber and Dakota saw markets that Winchester didn't. Winchester lost.

Kinda like GM and Ford didnt notice Toyota and Honda

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

quote:

I'm sorry to see that plant close down, and those workers get laid off. Maybe someone will buy the plant and put it back in operation. Sounds like it's a tough proposition financially to keep it going, though.

SOmeone buying the plant is meaningless. Olin owns the trademarks and Herstal owns the design. Only a fool would pay licenses for both.

As old as the M-70 design is, I really question that any part of it is still protected. This is not meant to offend, but are you sure about Herstal having protective rights to the design.

I copied this from the New Haven Register, basically this is the end of the M70's.

"The city of New Haven is working with USRAC to try and locate a buyer."

"DeMennato said if the plant closes down, it will mark the end of Winchester’s most well-known and historic sporting firearms — the Model 70 bolt action centerfire rifle, the Model 94 lever action centerfire rifle (known as "The Gun that Won the West") and the Model 1300 pump-action shotgun.

"Scott Grange, a spokesman for Herstal divisions Browning and Winchester Firearms, both located in Morgan, Utah, confirmed that Herstal has no plans to build the New Haven models anywhere else."

"Grange said it was strictly a financial decision. "After years of attempting to make the facility profitable, our owners have decided that’s just not going to happen," he said. "The bottom line was we were losing money on every gun we built."

"Winchester Firearms will continue to produce some other Winchester lines at plants in Portugal and Japan, he said. The Portugal plant produces a limited number of semi-automatic shotguns and semi-automatic rifles, and the Japan plant makes a limited mber of fully functioning replicas of older Winchester models."

"In the past year, especially, American gun makers have succumbed to overseas competition, fighting to stay alive as manufacturers in places like Russia and the Czech Republic are able to make guns for a fraction of the cost here, said Jim Shepherd, editor of The Outdoor Wire, an online industry news service."

"The city and state have been subsidizing USRAC for the past decade, offering funding through tax abatements and grants. Since 1993, the city has foregone $1.3 million in property taxes for USRAC, though the state has reimbursed the majority of it, resulting in a $773,132 loss."

I would like to make some comments about the article and past Winchester past history. I think Winchester sold the New Haven plant back around 1991 or 1993. It was a hard search to find a buyer because they were not making money. I recall the plant sold for $30 Million. Of course we all know the name Winchester was licensed out for use to United States Repeating Arms Company , the corporation that ran the New Haven plant.

I have no idea why FN purchased USRAC. Maybe they thought having an American Manufacturer would make it easier to win US Military contracts. FN is a European Company. The typical European entity is not interested in increasing the number of firearms in civilian hands. But they are quite willing to sell firearms to the police and military.

I don’t know why USRAC is not making money. But this is not the first time, the whole Winchester product line was re engineered in 1964 because they were losing money on every rifle shipped from the plant back then.

In my opinion Winchester stopped being a product leader when John Browning died. John Browning created all of the great Winchester rifles from the 1885 to around 1920. He really pulled that company from oblivion by giving the public a product line that people wanted. Winchester was able to live off his legacy for years. John Browning was not only a great designer, but also was in touch with his customer base. And I believe the loss of the entrepreneurial spirit, more than anything else, killed Winchester firearms.
Winchester became a great corporate entity. The firearms side of Winchester were a tiny part of the corporate profits. Typically large corporations end up being run by accountants and business majors. These bean counters are there to maximize profits (and their salaries). But most of them are totally out of touch with their customer wants and needs. Most of them have never used their own actual products. To them, what they are managing is just a chip, a chip that can be traded, sold, or tossed away. The less they spend on that chip while they hold it means more money they keep in their pocket. New product lines are expensive, and risky. Lacking an entrepreneurial spirit, the bean counter makes it very difficult to improve a product or introduce new products. And what new items are introduced become diluted by the twiddling of too many corporate dolts, creating a flop. Anyone recall the Winchester Short Magnum series of cartridges? A product line, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Will someone else make the M70? Well if they do they have almost a million M70’s in the used market to compete against. If the price of used M70’s reach astronomical levels, well someone might dabble in the market.

The M70 was a good action, pre 64 and post 64. There are things that could be improved, but as an overall package, it was a good action.

Nice post, Slamfire. Interesting.

A couple comments at the end, however, I just can't let go by without comment.

Are you implying that the Winchester Short Magnum line is a flop? Maybe it is, I've not seen sales figures.

The concept sure is forward thinking, though. The trend is definitely to minimalist, short action, no more weight than necessary rifles. Witness Melvin Forbes Ultralight Arms, Colts attempt, Kimber, and other small manufacturers. Kimber has a whole line dedicated to the short magnums.

And the cartridge is built from the knowledge gained in the competitive shooting arena, such as the 6mm PPC.

The Remington UltraMag series is the "dud", not the Winchester short magnums (at least that is the way it seems to me).

But you really blew me away, calling the M70 "a good action". That's like calling the Himalayas a good mountain range. For target shooting, I'll take a Remington design, but for hunting?

Nothing compares to the M70. Look at how much it's copied. Look at the percentage of custom guns made from the M70 action. Nothing else even comes close.

I'm not saying it's perfect. But boy does it have "soul".

It's amazing how much that "soul" is tied to the controlled-round feed extractor. The custom hunting rifles are made on Pre-64s and the Classics. You just don't see them made on the push-feeds. I own one push-feed that has unbelievable walnut, but missing the big extractor really downgrades the rifle.

Well put, MikeG. I, too, am tired of the WSM and WSSM bashing. Granted, some of the calibers are selling better than others(the 7mm WSM appears to be the least popular), but overall a great new line of cartridges. I think most of the "anti" crowd feel threatened by these new choices, when they should be grasping the positive differences. If I had a .270 Winchester, would I have traded it for a .270 WSM? I can say definately not, but since I was looking for a .260 -.280 sized rifle, the .270 WSM was my choice. I did not purchase it to try and belittle the .270 Win. or the .270 Wby, had either of them been available in my area they would have both been given strong consideration.
Back to the thread topic, I bought two M70 Super Shadows (I am sure I will be belittled for buying a "Walmart" gun), a WSSM and a WSM, and I am very happy with both rifles.

MikeG50: Thank you for the kind comments.

I just completed a Google search on the Winchester Short Magnums. There have been a lot of debates on whether the series is better than the cartridges they ballisticaly duplicate. I don’t think I could really add much of value to what has been said.

I have noticed, before the Winchester going out of business sale, that one ad in Shotgun News was dumping every Winchester rifle variation of the WSM at below dealer cost. It will take time to finally find out the sales figures, but I think the WSM series of cartridges are going to be collector items in the near future. Just my opinion.

As to action design features, a read of Vol 1 and V02 of “Bolt Action a Design Analysis†by Stuart Otteson, was a real interesting read for me. Even before Vol 1 came out, I was real fan of the 98 Mauser. That action has to be the best “all around†bolt action ever made. It has so many safety features that were totally deleted from later bolt actions. It is incredibly reliable. I have one target version of a Columbian 98 Mauser in 30-06 that has seen at least 50,000 rounds through the action plus an equivalent of dry firing. I had to replace the bolt because the case hardening had worn out of the cocking cam. Nothing broke on that rifle. If I short stroked the action during rapid fire a cartridge would sometimes pop out forward of the extractor. I modified the extractor to snap over the cartridge rim and that stopped any jams.

I recommend in all claw extractor type actions to feed the round from the magazine, allowing the extractor to snap over the rim will cause a fatigue fracture. It may take several barrels of ammo for it to happen, but it will.
I have three target rifles built on M70’s, one a National Match pre 64 and two classic rifles. I asked the local target shooters what the best action to build a match bolt rifle around, and the preferred actions were the Remington and the Winchester. For the Winchester group, the pre-64 was the favorite, but the push feed Winchester was the most commonly used action. A pre 64 cost a lot more. A push feed Winchester was a smooth, reliable, action. Its main weakness was that the extractor would wear. The wear would show up as a failure to extract or eject from the magazine well.

The Remington was the basis for an excellent target rifle, I saw lots of them on the firing line. Its weakness was its small bolt face extractor. It would wear and fail also.
Unfortunately the M98 Mauser was not a superior target action. It was not as smooth in bolt manipulation as a M70 or M700. It required much more force to open the bolt, meaning I had to roll around much more in the rapids; breaking your position just ruins your accuracy. Also the action was not as rigid as a M700 and M70. The M98 was much more sensitive to action bedding. It also had a long firing pin fall, but that was not a major issue for me. You just have to work harder on your position.

I like a claw extractor, because I like opening the action and easing the round out. A push feed action will pop the round out in front of the firing line, or under my shooting stool. Functionally that is about the difference for me. I believe the positive feelings that shooters have for the claw extractor is due to advertising and the self serving rantings of gun writers. The claw extractor is used in very few mechanisms. The majority of action designs use “push feed†mechanisms. Just off the top of my head, the M1 Garand, the M1 Carbine, the M14, the FN/FAL, the M16, the M60, SKS, SAKO AV action, Marlin M1894, Ruger Mk 1 .22LR, etc. The push feed system is reliable when designed properly. And I believe it is less sensitive to manufacturing tolerances. I recall one gunsmith stating a controlled feed mechanism requires tighter tolerances than a push feed. I know my push feed rifles will feed upside down, sideways, etc.

I like the M70, just don’t want to be behind it when a primer pierces. When it has, my glasses gets coated with all the grease and oil that reside in the bolt. Without glasses I think I would have lost my vision in the right eye. Unfortunately safe gas handing is one of the features that few modern actions retain. I believe my M77 Ruger is well designed to protect the shooter, and I think the M700 is a good one too. (Don’t have a M700) But most actions today will funnel cartridge gas right into your eyes.

I humbly defer to your experience, which is much greater than mine.

I hunt, and occasionally shoot for pleasure. I will never wear out an extractor (I don't think) of any kind.

I've owned a few Remingtons, which were good in every way. Had one Ruger, which I hated immensely. Several push feed Winchesters (all gone except the one with truly exceptional wood).

I simply love the claw extractors. It goes back to "soul". It "puts" the cartridge into the chamber, instead of the cartridge just getting there sort of accidentally. It amazes me how those push-feeds just accidentally get the cartridge there every single time - never did have one get lost on its way in. I love machinery. The claw extractor bolt works like a machine should. Everything works and everything has a purpose. The push feeds just get lucky (albeit, every time).

If I shot as much as you, I guess I would demand "more" of my machinery!

Don't even get me started on how much I love the 3 position safety (especially when it's worn in).

I love Model 70s and 94s and have several of each. I doubt they will be gone for long. As for those who are simply speculating with them at present, I sincerely hope all get burned.

I, too, went and bought another Winchester just yesterday. Been looking for a Model 70 Classic FWT in 270 WSM for some time. Check the auctions and they all have been going for something around $800 by the time I pay postage and having an FFL do the paperwork. So, just out of no where I called the Anchorage Sportsman Warehouse and they had one. $659. Needless to say.....it is now in my gun safe.

Paid 689.00 for the lh feather weight in 270 wsm. Haven't shot it yet but should make a good bean field rifle for Whitetails down south. I may take it to Namibia in July, any ideas on this cal. for plains game?

I would stick to calibers not offered in original per-64 Winnie.

I'm so kicking myself for not buying a stainless FWT in 6.5x55 when it first came out. I saw one NIB on line yesterday for @$800 with shipping and taxes, nearly twice the price I would have paid three or four weeks ago. Then I'd have to lighten the trigger and re-stock it with a composite stock bringing it to substantially more than a stainless Tikka T3 Lite. ...And thats more than I can bring myself to pay. To soon we get old, and to late we get smart.

holgauze,

You might be surprised with the stainless you're considering. Based on the poor stocks I'd seen on the USRAC rifles lately, I also thought I'd have to replace them. I just bought one and looked at some others, and I'm leaving the factory wood stock on, even on the stainless. The thing is inletted more acurately and the action on it is far smoother than the blue steel models I've looked at lately. I'm keeping the stock, with its factory Pachmayr recoil pad (another savings). The trigger does need work, though.

Jaywalker

I just got too shoot my new 243 WSSM yesterday. It's a great shooter, just used a card table for a rest, and with wind gust's too 25mph, it was sub moa at 100yds with Win factory 100gr powerpoints That's awesome in a 6 pound rifle sold at Wal-Mart for $350

I was in a rather nice sporting goods store yesterday. The cheapest Model 70 they had in the store was marked at $900.00. There was a sign above that explained that these were the last of the "American Made" Model 70s. Made me kind of happy that I purchased an absolutely minty Stainless .338 CRF a month ago from Cabela's for $400.00!!!

quote:

purchased an absolutely minty Stainless .338 CRF a month ago from Cabela's for $400.00!!!

I will give you you're money back!

quote:

Originally posted by MajorCaliber:

quote:

purchased an absolutely minty Stainless .338 CRF a month ago from Cabela's for $400.00!!!

I will give you you're money back!

Not only was it stainless, it was one of the early low serial number one ones with the little screw in the cocking piece. I couldn't give it up because then the minty blued one (also low serial number) sitting next to it in the safe that I paid $425 for would get lonely.

I've had no beef with the quality of the M70 stocks I've seen or had. But I see a gun as more a hammer than a work of art so I just don't see much point in a wooden stock. I've got Gortex so I can hunt in the pouring rain and I don't want to be worrying about where the aimpoint will be after the woooden stock has been wet a while. I had some bad experiences with wet wooden stocks years ago so I've replaced most of them with composite. I keep the wooden stocks in the closet just in case I want to sell the gun. Good composite stocks just seem to work better for me.

The stock on the LH 300 Win Mag I picked up at the news of the closing is VERY UGLY. The walnut looks more like poplar. The grain is wide ,open and bland. The wood had obviously been stained darker to cover up both the poor grain pattern & the amount of heart wood that the stock has. It also has patchy areas where the stain had run & dried into dark patches around the bolt handle slot. It appears obvious that Winchester was past the point of caring when they let my stock through the line. I can see why their sales were projected to drop by 30% for 2006...........causing the closing of operations. This is the 3rd Left handed M70 that I've owned. But the quality of the current one is vastly inferior to the others I bought just 6 or 7 years ago.

For my purposes this rifle will work. As a donor rifle for a big bore project. The stock, barrel, bottom metal and cast extrator will all be replaced.

FN is a huge company. They already had military contracts, they have had them since the 1960s. They are the manufacterer of the M60, M249, and a whole host of other military firearms.

They have made every high end Browning for years either in Belgium or in Portugal.

I think they did it to have all three original companys together.

I could give two shits about the M70 being dead. Winchester hasn't made a decent M70 rifle since 1963.

Someone will produce a good M70 for $1000, it will take at least that much to give out the kind of quality that Winchester gave in the 1960s.

I guess we will see what happens.

iron Buck,
That is a dreary report. I guess I didn't know things had gone so far down hill. The two SS. M70's I bought about 97 are great. I haven't bought one since. So it goes.

holgauze,

I don't think they've gone downhill - it appears to me to be more of a rollercoaster, and in the past has likely reflected a company which is having troubles, financial as well as quality.

The two new stainless models I bought last week, however, are simply superb. These are new models with what appears to be carbon followers. The stock inletting is straight, the wood is fair on one and very nice on the other. The machining is what sets them apart, however. The bolt throw is much smoother than the current crop of Sako M75, approaching that of my pre-Garcia Finnbear.

While I certainly don't claim that all are of this high quality, my personal, and recent, experience is that the USRAC Featherweight Stainless Steel M70 is a very worthy purchase.

Jaywalker

quote:

I don't think my $$$ is wasted on a Winchester

Me either but Walmart had it marked down to $150 about two months ago when I purchased it. I'm not jumping too high though, not much quality there.
GeoW

I recently got a new Safari Express in 458. It's a better rifle than either of the two pre-64's in 458 I had in years past. I destroyed a beautiful Supergrade stock in a pre-64 with factory ammo and came to find that ALL pre-64's in 458 (and, according to Finn Aagaard, all in 375H&H) will split their stocks if fired enough. The new ones will not! Accuracy in my new one is much better than either of my old ones as well. Feeding and extraction in the new one (standard with Williams extractor) is flawless, unlike either of the old ones which tended to be tempermental. The current Winchester company actually listens to people and tried to make their product better, such as better stock design, Pachmeyer Decellerator pads, bedding both recoil lugs, changing to Williams extractors, buying ERA iron sights from NECG etc., whereas the older Winchester company did not. There is a current author of gun articles who worked for Winchester in the mid 50's. Prior to release of the African model in 458, Winchester sent several early models to Africa to be tested by PH's and there were several problems with both the rifles and the ammo that were relayed back to Winchester, but the corporate decision was to go ahead with the release of the rifle, problems be damned!

I hope you folks that are being ripped off by being overcharged for your Winchester purchases remember to not to deal with when you buy your next rifle. And jacking the price up is a rip off.

iwzbeeman,

Is moving the rifle up to "suggested retail" a ripoff?

Actually, while I'm sure there's some price gouging going on, I've seen a lot of places that still have M70 rifles at the pre-closing-announcement prices. I didn't see many M70s at the "Nations Gunshow" in Chantilly Virginia last weekend, but the ones I did see didn't appear to be inflated.

Jaywalker