I love the .308
I have 3 old ones. My 1953 Model 70 Featherweight is very accurate. With lots of bullets.
My 1954 (i think) model 88 is also accurate, but the trigger on those is not for precision shooting.
And i just acquired a nice 1950s vintage Savage 99f. I have loaded up some 150 grain speers over w-748. and would be shocked if i could not get decent groups with that combo,
my point. !
I have other rifles, 06 270 Roberts 7x57 7mm rem mag .338 win 45/70, And i think the .308 is the best of the lot.
Call me crazy but i would hunt any thing in north america except a really big bear.
And truth be told with a good M-14 style auto that feeds a barnes x bullet i think i would come out on top in a fight with big grizz too ! ...tj3006

I was actually running that cartridges ability through my mind just this morning,
conclusion;;- For many folks and their anticipated game and hunting situations, the .308win has it well covered.

-even with the slower 200 accubond, its downrange figures remain fairly impressive if pursuing large game.

one shouldn't doubt the .308win will do the job, iF the hunter does his.

I like my savage 99 in 308 it was my favorite for many years.
Killed a lot of deer with it using sierra match kings before I knew better

Me thinks that if the .308 hadn't been the US governments military cartridge it would not be in existence today. It filled only imaginary voids. roger

quote:

Me thinks that if the .308 hadn't been the US governments military cartridge it would not be in existence today.

I have to agree with that. I am an odd man out on this one. Personally, for my own use I do not like the .270/.308/.30-06.

However, those 3 cartridges, are the ones I recommend when someone just getting started asks for a recommendation.

Even though my preferred two choices are the .35 Whelen and the .375 H&H, for the average hunter the .30-06 will adequately kill anything on the North American continent, providing the shooter does their part. The .308 and .270 are not that much different.

I really like the efficiency and usual accuracy of the '08 cartridge. I have to confess that I don't own a 308 but have had the pleasure of shooting many rounds out of 3 different rifles and have always been impressed. That said, my two favorite 08's are the 7mm-08 and 358 Win. The 243 is no slouch either (they do a number on deer and from what I personally seen, quickly). Yeah, they are slower than their '06 and Win Mag brothers but, I still really like anything in the '08 case.

yup - great round - but of course it is much surpassed by its father the venerable on 30/06

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
yup - great round - but of course it is much surpassed by its father the venerable on 30/06

Tomorrow I will be shooting at 500 yards...you know how many guys shoot an 06 in F class, three position, etc?

Zero. The only thing an 06 does is shoot heavier bullets but then, a 300 RUM does that even better.

Well bartchse ,
I never considered weather a particular cartridge fills a void.
However i often consider weather a cartridge creates a void. Preferably in the heart of a game animal.
And i have found it does a fine job of that , with less powder in rifles i like and at ranges as far as i care to shoot.
Comparing the various offspring of the .308 is cool. But to me the 7mm08 is so close to the .308
that for all practical purposes they are the same round. The 260 is one i think i would like.
The .358 is certainly a good round, but to me a specialty number great for lever guns.
It does my heart good to notice no one here has said anything negative about the performance of the round !...tj3006

You know, I shoot 30-06 and 308 a lot. Shooting 165 grain Gamekings over the Chrono. My Remington Sendaro stainless 26 inch heavy barrel actually has higher velocity (65fps) over my Ruger 77 in 30-06 shooting the same bullet. For me, this means for deer hunting they are completely interchangeable in the field.

The .308 is a fine and very capable round, however it is no 30/06 and a 30/06 is no 300 Win mag and so on. If your .308 is outrunning your 30/06 then you aren't loading your '06 to it's potential, I think it has 8- 10 grains of capacity over the .308.
I have yet to see any .308 push a 180 grain bullet at 2800 fps or a 165 at 2950, however I think the .308 is a peach of a round.
Read some old stuff about how the .300 Savage was the bomb when compared to the 30/30. The .308 is another step above that, I think a .308 shows it's stuff with a 150 grain bullet, if a mono metal is used there's nothing on our continent that is safe!

The beauty of a .308 is its short enough to work in the Savage 88, Win. 88 and 100 and a few others..

It's about a 100 FPS slower than the 30-06 with both 150 and 180 gr. bullets..200 and 220 gr. bullets are too long for the short case and therefore the 06 will walk off and leave way behind..

No flies on the .308 it is what it is and that's a great 30 caliber with a 150 gr bullet at 2800 in a lever gun and 2900 in a bolt gun, and that's plenty. It will shot a 180 gr. Nosler at 2600 FPS and that will kill any bear in the world with proper bullet placement and the .308 has killed a ton of elephants, and it used for culling them in many cases,mostly in simi or automatic rifles. I would hunt any animal on earth with it, if that's all I had.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
The .308 is a fine and very capable round, however it is no 30/06 and a 30/06 is no 300 Win mag and so on. If your .308 is outrunning your 30/06 then you aren't loading your '06 to it's potential, I think it has 8- 10 grains of capacity over the .308.
I have yet to see any .308 push a 180 grain bullet at 2800 fps or a 165 at 2950, however I think the .308 is a peach of a round.
Read some old stuff about how the .300 Savage was the bomb when compared to the 30/30. The .308 is another step above that, I think a .308 shows it's stuff with a 150 grain bullet, if a mono metal is used there's nothing on our continent that is safe!

I shoot 180 gr bullets in my .308. From 200 yards, I come up 10.5 MOA at 500 yards. My hit rate on a 10 inch by 10 inch gong is above 95% shooting sitting with a sling Harris bipod. It has been a while since I missed and that was a wind call. Last week I guessed 1 MOA for wind and fired two shots, each of which hit my 2 inch aiming circle. How do you get better than that? Accuracy counts a lot when it comes to allowable windage error. I will take accuracy every time over velocity. An 06 that shoots five inch groups at 500 has less wind error than a .308 that shoots 2.5 inch groups but is 200 fps slower.

I will admit at 800 yards the wind is starting to really blow my .308, but then it would blow a .30-06 too. Then I break out my Lapua with 300 grain bullets - sort of a super sized .308.

There really is no practical difference between the 308 and 30-06, but the 308 did fill a void. It feeds reliably and shoots more accurately in a more compact open-bolt machine gun. Less powder, less brass, less weight. It translates to a hunting rifle that is...easier to carry, more accurate, and cheaper to shoot. Ironically, it is only the second best round to come from that case. Second to it's red headed step-child the 260 Rem.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The beauty of a .308 is its short enough to work in the Savage 88, Win. 88 and 100 and a few others...

True enough, Ray. But so is the .300 Savage. It had a truly modest following long before the arrival of the .308 and with today's powders, primers and such would perform on the same level as the .308.
This was my thinking when I said imaginary void.
In 30 caliber we had 32-20. 30-30, 30-40, 30-06 and .300 H&H, plus a hand full of foreign military and commercial rounds.
Sure , it gave us another toy; something new to play with, and a whole lot of cheap, continuously available brass at one time.
IMHO had the us government been using modern thinking and technology they'd have come out with a .264 X 1.75"or .270 Brit and we'd be extolling its virtues rather than the .308.
roger

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
yup - great round - but of course it is much surpassed by its father the venerable on 30/06

Tomorrow I will be shooting at 500 yards...you know how many guys shoot an 06 in F class, three position, etc?

Zero. The only thing an 06 does is shoot heavier bullets but then, a 300 RUM does that even better.

When I go to an F-class match, the thing that strikes me as funny is that the .308 guys all know that they have the worst caliber at the meet unless someone shows up with a .223. (That might be me, but I shoot for my own reasons) If it weren't for those two having their own class there wouldn't be a single example of either.

Away from the range, .308 shooters always want to point out that target shooters use them. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

I had one years back, a Musgrave K98 model, but I sold it. Will put down Duiker to Eland no problem. Very accurate too. I was not loading ammo at the time and used nothing but 180gr factory loads and never wounded anything with it.
Anyone know what Winchesters original bullet weight/s were?
Thanks

I have both the '06 and the 308, both in several versions. U never much thought about anything else past accuracy in both. By that I mean that if the 150 grain bullet is most accurate, then that's what I shoot in that particular rifle, regardless of '06 or 308. In my three '06s, they TEND to like the 165 grain bullets better, while the three 308s TEND to like the 150s better. There are exceptions; my BLR likes 180s in 308 and my Colt Light Rifle likes 150s on '06. My point is that for me, they are pretty much interchangeable.

If the truth be known, I prefer the 6.5s over either.

I've always found that you have to push the .308 pretty hard to get 2800 fps out of a 150 grain bullet. Conversely, I've found that it is never difficult to get 3,000 fps with a 150 in a .30-06. That's not to say there is anything at all wrong with the .308 (and it does fit in a handier length action), but the .30-06, when loaded to similar pressures with appropriate powders, provides more velocity and is the more practical with heavier bullets.

I am puzzled at why anyone felt it was necessary to re-invent the .300 Savage, which has a sharper shoulder of larger diameter and achieves virtually the same case capacity as the .308 in a shorter case. I suppose that someone looked at the Savage round and decided that it might not always feed reliably through automatic weapons, but I doubt that they really tried it. I've measured the case capacity of both cases and the capacity of some .300 Savage brass is actually greater than that of some .308 brass.

Again, this is not to demean the .308, simply to call attention to how overlooked the Savage case is.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

I am puzzled at why anyone felt it was necessary to re-invent the .300 Savage, which has a sharper shoulder of larger diameter and achieves virtually the same case capacity as the .308 in a shorter case. I suppose that someone looked at the Savage round and decided that it might not always feed reliably through automatic weapons, but I doubt that they really tried it. I've measured the case capacity of both cases and the capacity of some .300 Savage brass is actually greater than that of some .308 brass.

Again, this is not to demean the .308, simply to call attention to how overlooked the Savage case is.

10-4 roger

quote:

Originally posted by lal:
I had one years back, a Musgrave K98 model, but I sold it. Will put down Duiker to Eland no problem. Very accurate too. I was not loading ammo at the time and used nothing but 180gr factory loads and never wounded anything with it.
Anyone know what Winchesters original bullet weight/s were?
Thanks

I believe the original/early Winchester loadings were 110, 150, and 180 grains.

My first deer rifle was a left handed Remington 788 in 308Win that was my only hunting rifle for about 10 years and it took game from California to South Carolina to Idaho. I still have it in the safe and after about 10,000 rounds it has over a 1/4" of jump to the lands but it will still put three 165 grain Hornady Interlock with 46 grains of IMR4064 into an inch at 100 yards.

tjroberts,

I agree with you, the 308 is a great cartridge. It very economical to reload, accurate, has mild recoil, and versatile given the range of bullets it can use. I love mine. Of the elk I've killed, my two largest have fallen to that 308.

In addition to being a great caliber itself, it's also lead to a wonderful family of other versatile rounds that share it's same attributes.

I don't do much with the long-range matches, etc. I'm sure there are better calibers for that use, but for a hunting rifle, it's very good!

Stonecreek !
I am curious about you dificulty getting 2800 fps with a 150 grain.308 In a bolt gun i have had little trouble getting 2900, from a 22 inch barrel.
What powders have you used ? And how many rifles have you loaded for ?
My favorite powder for the .308 is W-748. However IMR 4064 is very good too. ...tj3006

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
I am puzzled at why anyone felt it was necessary to re-invent the .300 Savage, which has a sharper shoulder of larger diameter and achieves virtually the same case capacity as the .308 in a shorter case.

as I recall, the neck was too short. the simplest mod would have been to use a longer neck, but

quote:

I suppose that someone looked at the Savage round and decided that it might not always feed reliably through automatic weapons,...

that sounds plausible, if not probable. so the 300 savage was improved (for military purposes), spec'd with better (modern) powders than the '06 or 300 were designed using, and the result was the 308 win.

just like any other caliber, the 308 doesn't have to be the best today to have been the best at the time it was on the drawing board.

quote:

Originally posted by tjroberts:
Stonecreek !
I am curious about you dificulty getting 2800 fps with a 150 grain.308 In a bolt gun i have had little trouble getting 2900, from a 22 inch barrel.
What powders have you used ? And how many rifles have you loaded for ?
My favorite powder for the .308 is W-748. However IMR 4064 is very good too. ...tj3006

I've used mostly WW-748 (or its spec twins, BL-C2 and WC-846) in my .308's. I've loaded for enough .308's to conclude that you've probably got a "fast" barrel in your .308 -- or you're comfortable with higher pressures than I am.

I have recently tried CFE-223 and find that it delivers a marked increase in velocities in my .308's at pressures apparently very similar to that I've been running with the W-748 clones. The fastest loads with CFE-223 under a 150 grain bullet will run around 2900 fps, but I backed off just a bit, finding that 2850 fps was about as stiff as I wanted on a regular basis.

I own several .308s, and far from knocking the cartridge I appreciate its qualities. However, when loaded to equal pressures it certainly does not and cannot equal the power of the .30-06. Velocities of common factory loadings of the two cartridges by Remchesteral may not be all that different, but then the name of this forum is, after all, "Accurate Reloading".

I also love and respect the 06.
I will also admit that what you say about equal pressures the 06 has more power.
But i pretty much never go over book loads in the .308. My old featherweight model 70 may well have a fast barrel. And some barrels are much faster than others.
My 20 inch Roberts is usually 150fps faster than my 24 inch with the same loads...

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
The .308 is a fine and very capable round, however it is no 30/06 and a 30/06 is no 300 Win mag and so on. If your .308 is outrunning your 30/06 then you aren't loading your '06 to it's potential, I think it has 8- 10 grains of capacity over the .308.
I have yet to see any .308 push a 180 grain bullet at 2800 fps or a 165 at 2950, however I think the .308 is a peach of a round.
Read some old stuff about how the .300 Savage was the bomb when compared to the 30/30. The .308 is another step above that, I think a .308 shows it's stuff with a 150 grain bullet, if a mono metal is used there's nothing on our continent that is safe!

I think the 26 inch barrel vs the 22 is a big reason. Also, I load for accuracy not maximum fps. I have a 300 H+H and a 300 Ultra mag if I need to go faster, but for deer hunting.... really does not matter. At a maximum of 130 yards where I hunt, they are the same.

quote:

Originally posted by tjroberts:
And some barrels are much faster than others.
My 20 inch Roberts is usually 150fps faster than my 24 inch with the same loads...

I have a .270 and a .243 with very "fast" barrels. The .270 (24")_won't take anything like "book maximum" loads, but achieves 3200 fps with a 130 grain bullet using about 3% less than book maximum. The .243 (23") is similar, easily getting 3100 fps with a 100 grain bullet. So the phenomenon certainly exists.

I haven't been as lucky as you to run across a .308 with a "fast" barrel; but surely among the seven .308 rifles I own (one 20", three 22", and three 23") not all of them have similarly "slow" barrels.

I have, in the rack, 308's, 303's, 30/06's and 30/40 Krags. All perform within the same spectrum as far as field use is concerned.
For "F" class shooting, I think the 308 is every bit as good as the 6BR but it is more difficult to shoot. It is not as good in the wind as the 6.5's or 7mm's but that doesn't matter much if the shooter is capable of dealing with the wind. If he is not, he will drop points with anything. Regards, Bill.

308 Win. works for me!!



nary a problem killin' stuff with it.



JAPMF,

GWB

Love the wood stocked one.
I had a styer similar to the black one but had a green stock.
Shot very well but never liked the look of it.
I would love to have a Full stock .308 as pretty as that..tj3006

quote:

Originally posted by tjroberts:
Love the wood stocked one.
I had a styer similar to the black one but had a green stock.
Shot very well but never liked the look of it.
I would love to have a Full stock .308 as pretty as that..tj3006

Perhaps the most famous full stock rifle was the one John Wootters carried so often, a SAKO. He was a great guy...

Not a 308, but one that followed me home recently.




Steyr Mannlicher Classic, 270 Win.



I do not have especially big hands. I luv the Sako Mannlicher, but it is a skosh wide/thick at the point of balance. The stock on the Stery is somewhat slimmer. I do like that.

JAPMF,

GWB

I like those Styer classics.
To expensive for me though. But one in any of my favorite rounds would be great.
...tj3006

in my early days I looked past the ever so common an what seemed boring, 308 win cartridge, as I got older I got one an realise its proberly the perfect cartridge for me.

I reload 150gr accubonds at around 2750 fps an it does the job on the big deer down here.

I rekon its the perfect overall combination of size of projectile, case, powder, velocity an energy.

If I had too, would sell all the others an keep the 308.

cheers

WL

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The beauty of a .308 is its short enough to work in the Savage 88, Win. 88 and 100 and a few others..

The beauty of the .308 Win is that you can make it into a .358 Win and chamber it in the above mentioned rifles and the Sako Finnwolf.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Me thinks that if the .308 hadn't been the US governments military cartridge it would not be in existence today.

The same could be said about the 30-40, 30-06, 30 carbine, and probably many others.

Bartsche,
I won't argue your post as I agree with you.

We can compare the .308 with all the 30 calibers however and until you get to the handloaded 300 H&H there just isn't a hell of a lot of difference in any of them as far as accuracy ( that is determined 100% by the individual rifle, not caliber) trajectory between all of them is probably within 3 or 4 inches at 300 yards, and killing power on game is hard to measure but they all work the same with proper bulllet placement and proper bullet choice for the game hunted..

My point is these discussions deal with subtle changes at best and it boils down to the 300 Savage can be handloaded to .308 factory specs and the 308 can be loaded to 30-06 specs and the 30-06 can be loaded to 300 H&H factory specs and the 300 H&H can be loaded very close to 300 WBY spec, ALMOST ANY WAY.

Therefore I am of the conclusion that the .308 is best for the short action lever and auto rifles, The 30-06 is best for med action bolt guns and with each of the above mentioned calibers the larger of the two does better with heavier bullets than the latter..BUT NOT BY MUCH! and everything in between is just more of the same!

quote:

Originally posted by Pa.Frank:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Me thinks that if the .308 hadn't been the US governments military cartridge it would not be in existence today.

The same could be said about the 30-40, 30-06, 30 carbine, and probably many others.

You got the picture.Now we will all go out and buy short action .300 Savages. Right? roger