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 Can anyone explain how such a poorly designed cartridge as the .308 got so popular??  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | ||
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Sure. It was because the .308 was such an improvement over the .30-06 national mistake.  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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 rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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 This must be the source for the theory of why two wrongs could make a right.... Well in all honesty it probably was designed by a committee, and beaurocrats at that... Yeah , it must be junk.  Product Recall Notice AR members with faulty .308 Winchester designed rifles please send them to: 308 Sako 168 X's only group Bolt Action, SA   Member NRA, SCI- Life #358 28+ years now! DRSS, double owner-shooter since 1983, O/U .30-06 Browning Continental set. | |||
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Can anyone explain how such a poorly designed cartridge as the .308 got so popular?? roger I think you are going to need define what features you think are "poorly designed". I do not know the full design parameters of the cartridge, but it was a military cartridge, they wanted M2 ball ballistics in a smaller package. They got it. | |||
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Almost as good as the 30-06 isn't a bad spot to be in, and to be honest it didn't have to beat the -06 to be a great cartridge as it was never intended to be a hunting round (at least not the four legged variety). Where I think the 7.62 pales is when it is compared to such old military rounds as the 7.62 X 54R Russian. The only advantage I can see is that it is sans rim. This old czarist round hangs on for reasons that escape me, but one thing it isn't, is ineffective. Another good, and probably more fair, comparison would be the old 8X57. I am of the opinion that the more modern 7.62 is an "improved" version of this old round. Having said that, playing second fiddle to the 30-06 isn't such a bad place to be in, and therein lies the success of the 7.62 NATO/308 Winchester. | |||
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It offers everything that the .300 savage did and then some... | |||
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Having shot a number of 308 barrels out in Highpower competition I can attest that the 308 is an accurate cartridge. It was well loved in the years that it was the standard 30 caliber cartridge. It is very easy to make an accurate load with the 308. I know it is capable of match winning accuracy with 125 grain through 190 grain bullets. I shot mostly 168's, and with that bullet you will get sub MOA performance (in a bolt rifle) from velocities 2450 fps up to 2700 fps. The upper velocity is pretty hot in most rifles. Barrel life is excellent, recoil manageable. Ballistics are of course inferior to 7mm, 6.5mm's. I personnally think the military should have picked a 7mm, something with more taper. The 276 Pedeterson would have made an excellent service cartridge. Was a bit long. I suspect a 7mm-08 would have been an excellent service cartridge, add a bit of taper and it would have been easier to steer in feeding. Considering that the 308 is now the velocity equivalent of the prewar 30-06, due to better powders, no one should think of it as a weak cartridge. Still it is six of one, half dozen of another. | |||
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The answer of course is that it's not a poorly designed round. It's a superb cartridge, more inherantly accurate than the 30-06 and the parent round of many highly successful siblings such as the 7-08, 243, 260 etc.. If you think the 308 is a poorly designed round I would wonder what you think is a well designed round?....................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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To name the top of my well designed hunting cartridge list: Military: ( By Today's Standards)  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Sure it got popular cause it's not poorly designed. It's a fantastic cartridge. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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bartsche...the 50 bmg is not a well designed cart by todays standards...the 416 barrett is though... the 308 is a please all satisfy few i agree...the best thing to come of it is the 7-08 though and the 6.5 08 a.i. i like the fact the 7-08 will duplicate the 7x57 in performance in a smaller package. the 6.5-08 is rock'n too.  the 30-284 and a 30-350 rem mag would be ideal capacity  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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the decision is terrible, yes. But the performance and accuracy are top-notch! | |||
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Bartch. 1st. you and I agree on lots of cartridgees. But I seen nothing rong with the .308. Its purpose was to near the 30,06 performance wise, (it is, clearly) And to be shorter to funtion better in auto rifles and machine guns. No experence here but allways thought the M-14 and M-60 were very good for the purpose. As far as sporting use , any US military round seems to have sucsess here in the states. And the .308 is very acurate, mild recoil. And it has power enough for most any game in the lower 48. I will have alot of dissagrement here , but I really don't see why the 7mm08 is as popular as it is. Now I am not saying it is,nt a great round ,it is. But It I can't see why its any better than the .308. A we bit less recoil mabye. But to those who say the 7mm08 is flatter shooting, you are right on paper, but I can't see how there is enough difference in trajectory to matter. But I could be rong...tj3006 freedom1st | |||
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Hey now, you can trash the .308 all you want but don't go pickin' on the 7-08. Oh God, it's gonna be a long winter. | |||
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When you compare a 308 to one necked down to 6.5mm, then you can eliminate about a third of the drop at very long range with good high bc bullets. In reality, it may not come to play a lot do to normal combat or hunting distances, but if I knew I'd be shooting over longer ranges, I myself would prefer the 7mm or 6.5mm version as either in my mind has enough bullet to do a good job, but less recoil and drop to boot, while giving very good accuracy. The only disadvantage I see, is true a smaller bore, all things equal has a smaller wound channel, and two, barrel life would be better as you go up in bore size. Still, I think proper bullet selection will address the first concern, second, barrel life is still very good for the smaller bored cousins. I have nothing against 308, it is a very good cartridge, but I am all for the pros you can get with 6.5mm and 7mm versions for what I do. Now if I had to pick one and were roaming in big bear country, yes, I would feel better if I had to stop a rare but potential deadly close encounter/attack with a 308 and heavy bullets. That is one situation I would want it, and better yet, give me a 338 or 358 bore on the same case! | |||
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Hey bartsche. It's snowing here too and I got nothing to do either! New question. Can someone explain the advantage ot the 260 Rem over the 263 Express? And, is it possible that the 6.5x308 is better than both?  I'd answer this for you but my dog wants in and I have to go to the door! | |||
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Load and clear!  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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It's a lot easier to re-write history than it is to write it. The 7.62x51 is a military cartridge first envisioned in the 1940s and finally developed in the early 1950s. Considering the requirements of that era it was a logical and well designed choice. Never intended to be a commercial cartridge and not designed by bureaucrats, BTW. Winchester happened to be looking for something new to boost sales and since they had $$$ invested in tooling to produce the 7.62x51 it was a logical choice. They beat Remington to the punch because I'm certain Rem was looking at the same idea. Winchester, BTW, intended to introduce the new cartridge in their Model 80 lever action high powered rifle, a concept ahead of it's time in the 1950s. The Model 80 never came to be but the Model 88 did. The first 308 cartridges were called the 30-80 WCF and are now valuable collectors items. We can go back as far in history as you want and ask the same question about just about every cartridge. Why on earth would Springfield Armory even consider a dinosaur like the 45-70 and then, later, the 30-06? And that pitiful little 5.56x45? It's not snowing here but it's just a matter of time. We got a measured 36" in one day last March. Ray  Arizona Mountains | |||
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It ain't snowin' in Temple City!  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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I find your posts always to be informative, refreshing and intelligently presented. rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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bartsche, I think somebody gave you a $20. and you drank a bottle of whiskey or maybe you are too old and don't remember what a great cartirdge is-- namely 30-06 or 308. you can have them pop-gun rounds!  | |||
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I'll tell you how the .308 came about - the Army, after about 50 years, finally discovered that they had been wasting about 1/2" or brass on '06 cases which was filled with air, not powder. So they cut the '06 case off 1/2", renecked it, and put the SAME POWDER CHARGE AND BULLET back into it! Voila! The .308. Same ballistics, same bullet, same powder charge, but alot less storage space & weight; plus a length that was much better suited to automatic weapons, not to mention better accuracy! (But I fail to see how anyone with half a brain, which I assume you have, can call it "poorly designed"!) The .308, and all its offspring from the .243 up to the .358 Win., are so well shaped (not to mention efficient!!) you can't really even improve hardly at all on them with an "Ackley" treatment! However, I personally prefer the 57mm case- length rounds like the 7X57mm, just like you seem to favor! However, since I now use single-shot rifles almost exclusively when I'm not shooting a flintlock, case length no longer matters to me at all....... "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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In the spirit of freindly debate (and nothing better to do at the moment) I'll offer up a few comments for criticism: 222, Nice accurate round that's been nearly totally supplanted for Varmint hunting by the slightly more powerful and vastly more common 223. It's been completely dominated in BR shooting by the PPC's since the day they came out. I'd have to consider it Obsolete. 244-6mm, A sad twisted tale since they were sad when they used the wrong twist. 257 Bob, I plan to build one of these someday but it seems that the AI version may become more popular yet. With the AI version as popular as it is how well designed was it in the first place? 6.5x55, Very Sweet round, too bad it won't fit in a short action and is really too short for a long action. True "Medium" actions are all too rare. In this case it might be more that the actions aren't as well designed as the case goes. I need another one of these. 7x57, Again it really needs a Medium action as it's too long for short and too short for a long action. Classic round but it's renowned for being a finicky accuracy wise. It's hard to shoot 120 to 175gr RN bullets well. The 308 is a far more accurate round and fits into a short action. The 7-08 is nearly a ballistic twin and fits into a short action. The rifle I'm builing now is a 7x57 though  .8mm Kurz, Groundbreaking concept that revolutionized military rifles. Never shot one. 7.62x39 - If it's such a well designed round why has it been replaced in almost identical rifles by the country that developed it? 50 BMG - How could a round that has dominated as many battlefields for as many decades as the 50 BMG has be considered anything but a superb round? Fire away...  ...........  ....  ...  .......DJ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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My tongue was definately in my cheek regarding bureaucrats in my above post. I stand corrected for reasons of accuracy, and not wanting to be mistaken for a Zumbologist. Member NRA, SCI- Life #358 28+ years now! DRSS, double owner-shooter since 1983, O/U .30-06 Browning Continental set. | |||
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Anybody that would ask a question like this about the .308 Winchester cartridge must need need the name of a good psychiatrist! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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It's popular because the military used it. Plain and simple. Look at the history and popularity of these military cartridges. .45-70 .30-06 .308 .223 .303 brit 7x57 8x57 6.5x55 just to name a few. If the military decided to chamber the .264WM we would now be discussing that cartridge. So adoption by the government does not really mean good design. Just what was useful at that particular time in history. ______________________ Are you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie? | |||
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roger As VD said DING, DING, DING,We have a winnerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Reminds me of some years back I built a custom 280 for a client who was going to Russia to hunt taur. Hir rifle disappeared somewhere in baggage (I'm sure some ex KGB agent is hunting with it today) and he had to shoot his world record taur (sp?) with an old 7.62 Rusky moisin rifle. Later at the Safari Club meeting he was recognized for the trophy but couldn't bring himself to admit what he shot it with, in front of all those high rollers.
"You can lead a horticulture, ... but you can't make 'er think" Florida Gardener | |||
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45 You could say the same thing about Remchester too! Ray Arizona Mountains | |||
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Yo!  Why are you talking down that sweet little cartrige 308, with low recoil, accurate, capable at killing a moose with no problem, lots of componets, rifles, and factory loading available whereever you are, and right down sex to look at??? Johan (A complety objektive point of view) There's plenty of room for all God's creatures. Right next to the mashed potatoes. | |||
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