I like them both, but....
Is there really any practical difference with bullets up to 165 gr.

This has recently been done in another thread. Look down a ways.

I own several .308's and several .30-06's. However, if you're speaking of factory loads I can tell you very little since I don't use factory loads and don't know what velocities they typically produce in either cartridge.

I can tell you that with the same 150 grain bullet it is pushing it to get 2800 fps from most .308's and is relatively easy to get 3,000 fps from most .30-06's. (The velocity difference in factory loads is probably less, however.)

So, if 200 fps is significant to you, then yes, there is a significant difference.

As bullet weight goes up (and a 180 grainer is heavy enough for anything you might reasonably hunt with either cartridge), then the percentage velocity difference between the two cartridges starts to favor the .30-06 a little more.

Bottom line: If you are hunting deer-size game at moderate ranges then one is as good as the other (or you might give the edge to the .308 since its rifle will likely be shorter, lighter, and more compact). If you are anticipating longer ranges on deer-sized game then the .30-06 offers a bit of trajectory advantage. And if you are hunting larger game (elk, moose, etc.) then the additional energy of the .30-06 is also welcome. But in 95 to 99 percent of hunting circumstances, a .308 would have done the same thing as a .30-06.

quote:

Is there really any practical difference with bullets up to 165 gr.

Yes. Class! LOL!

But, joking apart, a full length cartridge works better in a full length action that does a medium length cartridge in a full length action.

So in anything made using a Mauser 98 action I'd prefer .30-06 to .308, 7x57 (or 7x64) to 7mm-08 and 6mm Remington to .243. It's synergy.

I don't believe anyone can tell the difference up to and including elk between an elk shot with a 180 gr. 308 at 2600 FPS and a 180 gr. 30-06 at 2700 fps..except perhaps on paper and just to start an argument.

I like both rounds !
A lot depends on your rifle. If hou like a light fast handling rifle with a barrel 18 to 22 inches, i like the .308.
But if you don't mind a 24 inch barrel rifle a little heavy,er you can get a bit of a boost from the 06.
This year i hunted one weekend with my easy to carry savage 99 .308 next weekend i took my pre 64 06. My ,308 load is about 150 fps slower than the 06 load i used...tj3006

Yes, practically 100fps or so.

I'll take the extra velocity because it may mean the difference between a bullet lodged in the off side of the body and an exit wound.

Ask Roy Weatherby if 200fps makes a difference.

Well if it does Ive never been able to detect it. but that depends on the size of the hole in the barrel..100 or 200 FPS can make a difference in big bores..but in the 7mm, 25s etc it makes no difference IMO..3000 or 3200 FPS is nada if were talking killing effect and trajectory. Bullet construction does make a diffence.

well, that depends on what you are hunting..
ME.. I'll take my .308 over a 30-06.. I'll take my 7MM-08 over a .280 rem. I'll take my 260 rem. over a 6.5-06 or a 25-06 .. but that's just me..

Funny how a flat trajectory and high muzzle velocity mattered in the days preceding range finders. Now we're supposed to lob > 0.5 BC boat-tailed, tipped whatevers from not even 2700 fps MV to kill stuff at distances I will never attempt.

Dunno. Lacking a range finder, sometimes a measly few inches more drop mattered to me. As in drop/distance was more than I thought. You can have the .308. I'm sticking to what I know - my .300s. Cuz I really don't care whether .300s kill any better than an '06 or .308. Am positive I need to hit something right in order to kill it.

Love the .308 at the range, though.

quote:

Originally posted by vines:
well, that depends on what you are hunting..
ME.. I'll take my .308 over a 30-06.. I'll take my 7MM-08 over a .280 rem. I'll take my 260 rem. over a 6.5-06 or a 25-06 .. but that's just me..

And I'll take my 270 Win shooting 150g Partitions at 3000 fps over all of them as long as I'm not hunting in Alaska.

quote:

Originally posted by Samuel_Hoggson:
Funny how a flat trajectory and high muzzle velocity mattered in the days preceding range finders.

It did; today it is the wind that matters, and while velocity helps, as one guy posts on his signature line, "Velocity dies but BC lives forever."

I used to be a huge fan of velocity, even after rangefinders. But I have noticed the following to be true:
1. Lighter bullets fired faster seem to be more difficult to achieve lower velocity SD. This might be due to the fact I didn't have a LabRadar back in my high velocity craze and didn't document every bullet velocity fired at long range practice sessions. Today I do.
2. Few people can estimate range accurately beyond 250 yards, so what is the point of a flatter vs reasonably flat trajectory? You have a high chance of missing without a rangefinder.

In June I was hunting in Zim, and we spotted a hyrax on an opposing rock outcrop. My PH said the last client missed a klipspringer on that very rock because he was holding over his back. The range did look rather long so I ranged the rock - it was only 205 yards away.

I will take the .308 Win for deer hunting all day long over the .30-06 just because my rifle is a Rem Mod 7. Shot a ton of deer, five black bears, and four red stag with that rifle. I even prefer 180 grain bullets. If I think I will have to shoot at extended ranges, I grab a .300 RUM.

quote:

And I'll take my 270 Win shooting 150g Partitions at 3000 fps over all of them as long as I'm not hunting in Alaska.

chuck,.. you must have a pretty hot load to push a 150 270 win. at 3000 FPS,
all the friends i load the 270 for are right under 2900..

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

2. Few people can estimate range accurately beyond 250 yards, so what is the point of a flatter vs reasonably flat trajectory? You have a high chance of missing without a rangefinder.

If I think I will have to shoot at extended ranges, I grab a .300 RUM.

Yes, few people can estimate range accurately beyond 250 yds. I'll go further and admit the problem is magnified when outside familiar territory.

I was not arguing for low BC bullets at any MV. But am asking how higher velocity can make hitting more difficult with the same bullet/BC?

I mean, if we're both right about the difficulty judging distance (and we are) why not flatten the trajectory? The question is, for me, not rhetorical. I have killed animals with .300s between 3-400 yds I would have missed with a .308. If someone wants to kick me for not knowing the difference between 350 and 450 yds in unfamiliar territory, so be it.

And what bullet, regardless of BC, drifts less when launched at 2700 fps than when launched at 3300 fps?

quote:

Originally posted by Samuel_Hoggson:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

2. Few people can estimate range accurately beyond 250 yards, so what is the point of a flatter vs reasonably flat trajectory? You have a high chance of missing without a rangefinder.

If I think I will have to shoot at extended ranges, I grab a .300 RUM.

Yes, few people can estimate range accurately beyond 250 yds. I'll go further and admit the problem is magnified when outside familiar territory.

I was not arguing for low BC bullets at any MV. But am asking how higher velocity can make hitting more difficult with the same bullet/BC?

I mean, if we're both right about the difficulty judging distance (and we are) why not flatten the trajectory? The question is, for me, not rhetorical. I have killed animals with .300s between 3-400 yds I would have missed with a .308. If someone wants to kick me for not knowing the difference between 350 and 450 yds in unfamiliar territory, so be it.

And what bullet, regardless of BC, drifts less when launched at 2700 fps than when launched at 3300 fps?

I agree the flatter the trajectory, the better you are IF the BC is equal. Unfortunately, it is not. If flat trajectory is the answer, how come all target shooters shoot heavy bullets, eg, 80 grains in a .223? No one shoots 55 grainers...

I much prefer the 30/06 and one reason is powders. Probably a bigger issue in Australia.

30/06 can and does real well from 3031 burn rate through to 4350 burn rate.

In bench style rifles and both loaded to just before the point where accuracy drops off I put the 30/06 200 f/s in front. Something also nice about sailing over 3000 f/s with 150 grainers.

However I much prefer the 270 and 300 Winchester to either.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I agree the flatter the trajectory, the better you are IF the BC is equal. Unfortunately, it is not. If flat trajectory is the answer, how come all target shooters shoot heavy bullets, eg, 80 grains in a .223? No one shoots 55 grainers...

And again, I was not arguing against having high BC. I'm arguing for as much velocity as I can get with a good, ranging bullet.

How does the 80 grain .223 make hitting at distance easier than the 80 gr .22-250?

How does the 168 gr TTSX in .308 make hitting at distance easier than the 168 gr TTSX in .300 Win?

quote:

Originally posted by vines:

quote:

And I'll take my 270 Win shooting 150g Partitions at 3000 fps over all of them as long as I'm not hunting in Alaska.

chuck,.. you must have a pretty hot load to push a 150 270 win. at 3000 FPS,
all the friends i load the 270 for are right under 2900..

I've been using the same load for over 40 years, when I started loading it was Max, now reloading manuals have gotten much more cautious.

I use Rem brass fire formed and neck sized, Federal 215 (magnum) primers, H4831 (lots of it). Never had any pressure signs, 10 reloads and I throw out the cases even though they look fine. Thats out of a Rem BDL with a 22" barrel too

quote:

Originally posted by Samuel_Hoggson:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I agree the flatter the trajectory, the better you are IF the BC is equal. Unfortunately, it is not. If flat trajectory is the answer, how come all target shooters shoot heavy bullets, eg, 80 grains in a .223? No one shoots 55 grainers...

And again, I was not arguing against having high BC. I'm arguing for as much velocity as I can get with a good, ranging bullet.

How does the 80 grain .223 make hitting at distance easier than the 80 gr .22-250?

How does the 168 gr TTSX in .308 make hitting at distance easier than the 168 gr TTSX in .300 Win?

I agree, but even with the same BC, velocity is second fiddle to accuracy and low MV SD. The more accurate your rifle, the more allowable error you have in estimating wind. For example, if you are trying to hit a 10 inch target at 500 but can only keep your shots within 2 MOA at 500, you have absolutely zero allowable wind error if you intent to hit every time. SD is the same in terms in vertical "surprises" - the longer the range, the more it matters.

But if accuracy and SD are all the same, then I agree, the higher the MV the better, as long as the brass isn't taking a beating.

This long range business aside, to me the difference is more about the platform then the ballistics.

A .308 fits nicely into a smaller, lighter rifle. My wife has a Remington 660 that she loves. I on the other hand won't ever trade my Winchester m70 featherweight 30-06. She uses 150-165 grain bullets while I tend to stay with 180 grain projectiles.

Each does just fine and any differences between them is pretty minimal in real life. Neither of us take shots at long range, instead we just get closer which is what hunting is after all about.

The fact is the 308 has taken the place of the .270, that was popular gun nut conversation for several decades..Neither of which make any sence at all..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The fact is the 308 has taken the place of the .270, that was popular gun nut conversation for several decades..Neither of which make any sence at all..

Huh?!

++

quote:

Originally posted by A.J. Hydell:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The fact is the 308 has taken the place of the .270, that was popular gun nut conversation for several decades..Neither of which make any sence at all..

Huh?!

+1 Huh?

Huh what? The only reloading die that sells more than the .308 is the .223. Last stats available show the .270 in fifth place.

Simply because most shooters today aren't hunters. Instead they punch paper, many with their tacticool rifles. So popularity in this case doesn't transfer much to hunting calibers.

FWIW the rifle I seem to drag out more than any other is my LH NH Classic in 06 with 180 rn core lokts. It ALWAYS kills deer dead.

I had this thought prior to reading Jack O'Connor having the same thought in his book The Hunting Rifle. The beauty of the .308, being a short cartridge will work better in actions other than bolt than a long cartridge 30-06. If going bolt, there is no good reason to not get the 30-06. Other actions hands down the .308. Game will not know the difference.

I have a .308 in an 18.5 and a 26 inch barrel. 30-06 in 20 inch, 22 inch and 26 inch. With the same weight bullets, the longer the barrel the faster the velocity and head to head the 30-06 is faster by between 100 and 200 fps in my guns.

[quote]head to head the 30-06 is faster by between 100 and 200 fps in my guns.[/quote

100 fps with a 150 grain not that big enough difference to me out to 400 yards..

First of all I know that the 06 is a great cartridge as is ,almost, the .308.

The 06 and close behind it the .308 are in my perception just a bit over kill at ""reasonable""ranges for the lower 48 .

I would opted for something like a 6.5 X55
roger

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The fact is the 308 has taken the place of the .270, that was popular gun nut conversation for several decades..Neither of which make any sence at all..

Many years ago in Australia, maybe 20 or 30 years, can't remember exactly, the 308 was invariably sold in cheap rifles like Howa and Ruger as well as some ex military bolt action shit. It was also often owned along with the 223. On the other hand the 270 was in M70, Sako, Rem 700 etc. and often along with the 22/250.

These days the 308 is a far big seller than the 270 and also in M70, Rem 700, Sako, Mark V Ultralite and Blaser and Sauer.

I believe one of the reasons is the now much greater use of factory ammo. Don't know about America but the difference in price between factory ammo and reloading is nowhere like it used to be for the common calibres.

Personally, while I would always choose a 270 and reloading and a rifle bedded etc. if I was restricted to factory ammo and using a rifle as it came out of the box then I would choose the 308.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
Simply because most shooters today aren't hunters. Instead they punch paper, many with their tacticool rifles. So popularity in this case doesn't transfer much to hunting calibers.

I dunno Cougar...I would bet the .308 Win outnumbers the .270 Win even for hunting. Most "tacticool" rifles are 5.56, not .308.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
Simply because most shooters today aren't hunters. Instead they punch paper, many with their tacticool rifles. So popularity in this case doesn't transfer much to hunting calibers.

I dunno Cougar...I would bet the .308 Win outnumbers the .270 Win even for hunting. Most "tacticool" rifles are 5.56, not .308.

Definitely the case in Australia I would say more so than in America because the 30/06, while reasonably popular it is limited as never been our military cartridge. In other words the 308 has the game to itself.

Tacticool would be 308 in Australia because semi autos are banned so no AR 15s.

I often see pictures on Australia's biggest guns/hunting forum of a tacticool 308 and the rifle looks to me at first as if it would be a 338/378 or similar nd not a puny 308.

quote:

McGuire:
However I much prefer the 270 and 300 Winchester to either.

That resonates with me, the 270 in light mono-bullets is FAST and FLAT, and penetrates deeply on medium and large antelope and deer (elk). Why? Because a person gets equal to better penetration even after dropping 10-20% of bullet weight. The bullet doesn't lose weight, so the 10-20% lighter bullet is actually equal to the heavier lead-core bullet that only retains 80% of its weight. That means that a 270 hunts like a magnum at 3100-3350fps in a lightweight, little 22" barrel.

Having said this, I just bought my first 30 caliber in my life.

A Kimber Hunter in 308. I needed a rifle for grandkids.

The Kimber starts out at 5# 7oz in 308. The 30-06 is 4 oz. heavier at 5# 11-oz. A person has to carry the rifle, and kids have to hold them up steady.

So why 308 and not 243/260/7-08? Because .308" is the most practical diameter in the short brass case for walking around in Africa. I'm thinking of loading 130gn .308" GSC-HV at 3100fps. 3100fps is more than enough velocity to hunt with in Africa. The 130gn GSC-HV at 3100 can penetrate an eland broadside so it should work as a training rifle for antelope of all sizes. Some PH's have had surprisingly good success with this load. When the kids grow up, we have other rifles available and I tend to favor more diameter when things get serious.

why do kids always need "more rifle" when they grow up?
if it killed elk or whatever before it surely will do it now.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
I much prefer the 30/06 and one reason is powders. Probably a bigger issue in Australia.

30/06 can and does real well from 3031 burn rate through to 4350 burn rate.

Powders in this comparison is actually an interesting point. They both have numerous powders specifically manufactured to perform in them. The 06 is very versatile, but the plethora of powders that will make a 308 do magic tricks is second to none. For slugs 165 gns and less I kind of prefer the 308, simply because it is so easy to get excellent results from.

quote:

why do kids always need "more rifle" when they grow up?
if it killed elk or whatever before it surely will do it now.

Lamar, kids don't kill animals that read the internet. When the kid gets older, the animals they hunt read the internet, thus a bigger gun required.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:


I can tell you that with the same 150 grain bullet it is pushing it to get 2800 fps from most .308's and is relatively easy to get 3,000 fps from most .30-06's. (The velocity difference in factory loads is probably less, however.)

That has not been my experience. Maybe because comparing "most" 308's to "most" 06'es typically means a shorter bbl for the 308. I have two 308's. one with a 22" bbl and one with a 24" bbl. The 24" has no problem keeping up with my 06'es up to 165 gns.

A footnote from the Speer 13 manual;

"We've had many callers ask why the 308 velocities shown are equal to or better than some of the 30-06 velocities shown. They ask if it is a mistake. No, it's real, and there are two reasons.

First, a compact case and a higher pressure limit give the 308 an edge with bullets up to 150 grains. Things are about equal with the 165 grain bullets, but the big 30-06 case's ability to hold a lot of slow burning powder gives it the upper hand with heavy bullets.

The second reason is the sporting rifles we used to record final velocities. Both have 22" barrels and were bought at the same time. The 30-06 sporter barrel posted velocities about 50-100 fs behind the 24" pressure barrel. That's normal . On the other hand, the 308 sporter barrel was consistently equal to or better than the pressure barrel."

Such was their result after comparing with pressure testing equipment. Most handloaders dont go that far.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
why do kids always need "more rifle" when they grow up?
if it killed elk or whatever before it surely will do it now.

Some things are adequate, but not great or best. When kids grow up they can weigh the options and decide if they want a 338 for elk or a 416 for buffalo, etc.

The 270 and 308 are about a toss-up for most hunting and it becomes an issue of the platform and package. That 5 pound 7 ounce Kimber looked attractive as a super light rifle and nothing bigger was available at that weight and price point than a 308. So it is a good compromise platform.

The 338WM is hands down better, no question. And it can be found in a pretty light package in a Tikka. We've had a couple in TZ. Great rifle. But the lightweight 338 jumps too much for a 10-13 year old novice. Hence the even lighter 308.