I know that this thread isn't exactly about medium bore rifles, but several threads in this forum about long range shooting made me think about this. Most of us will immediately suspect BS when someone starts talking about a 400, 600, 750 yd shot, unless we know and trust the source. I feel fairly comfortable with a good rest, under decent conditions shooting inside of 300 yds. I also feel fairly comfortable judging that sort of distance off the cuff, around here. At least I can look at a deer and know that I have no business even considering this particular shot. I doubt I've ever killed one farther than 200 yds anyway. We do have a 300 yd. range, and I do frequently step off distances that I'm curious about, so I think I know about what a kill zone sized object looks like at 300 or less. I also know that I've been out west several times and couldn't judge distance for beans out there. Maybe it's the lack of humidity, the elevation, or the wide open spaces, but I could see stuff way further than I thought it really was. I remember seeing a town we were driving through across a valley and expecting to be there in a few minutes. It took a half hour. Anyone else noticed this phenomenon, or have something to add.

longrange shots need to be practiced just like shooting shotrange. I cant judge shots very well when I change location, just like you said. diffrent areas present there own set of rules. uphill downhill across valleys wind and bullet drif. thermals, and other weird thing make it difficult. if you are going to shoot long range mak sure you have a real good scop tasco wont do you may even need elevated bases..
learn how to use moa not clicks, get confortable at 4,5,600yrs after 600 the real effect of longrange come into affect.
Dave

I agree about the different locations being hard to judge distances. In areas I am familiar with I can easily look out and know this or that tree is 250yds what ever. When I went to Colorado, I took my rangefinder as I knew I was going to have a hard time. The steep inclines, switchbacks, and mountain to mountain shot possibilities looked endless, until you actually ranged a rock on the other side.

In the woods I am good, or along side differing grasses and such in wide open pastures, throw in hills and mountains, I am good to 100 yards give or take just about anywhere, but much further in a new area, I am as good as lost.

It can trick you sometimes HUH.If you look at power poles and check the spaceing between them,with a lot of practice you can put them in the field when shooting.It works when you do it enough.

It depends on the terrain Dan, in the south of England it usually fairly flat and one usually can guess or work out the distances without too much trouble.

In the more geographically varied areas, for example deer stalking in Scotland or 50 cal shooting in North wales, the distances are much harder for me to judge.

The worst for me is shooting down a grassy slope, no points of reference and I usually underestimate the distance, or across a valley.

This is why I have bought a rangefinder and why I guess first and then range.

The more hunting I do the more the issue strikes me as slightly peripheral, what I mean is that if an animal appears within 200 yards or so, the furthest I would consider taking a standing shot off sticks, there is no need to range it as most hunting rifles will not have dropped significantly at that distance and the very act of ranging is more movement that one doesn't need.

Above that range then one usually has the time to do basically anything in preparation for the shot and so guessing is not necessary, just bite the bullet and pay a couple of hundred bucks for the rangefinder, think of it as a proportion of the cost of a rifle/scope/ammo combination capable at grouping at distance anyway.

The other tip I got was to use a fixed mag scope, mine is a 7x50, and accquire a sixth sense based on how big the animal looks in the objective and against the reticule. This is not a good way of judging distance per se, rather "too far/ not too far" sort of thing.

With this in mind my '06 is sighted 1.5" high at 100 yards with 3" of drop at 250ish 9 at 300 15-16 at 350 and about 24" at 400. If anything appears between 0-250ish yards away , helped by the size of the beast in reticule, is a case of point and shoot, anything further than that get's carefully ranged by laser or something like counting tree spacing on commercial forestry, landmarks etc get's very careful prone treatment, if shot at all.

Yeah, many of theos 600yds shots are closer to 350yds. Judging distance is tough when yo uhave little between you & the target. Knowing the game size helps a lot. You knwo what a deer or elk looks like at certain ranges through your scope. I agree, 300yd shots on game under field conditions are tough. Your rest, judging distance & the wind is the biggest problem. Blow a shot on a target & it's a miss. Blow a shot on an animal & it's a wounded, maybe lost animal. Shoot to your limitations & the conditions in the field. I won't shoot beyond 300yds when the wind is up over 10mph.

quote:

Originally posted by daniel77:
Most of us will immediately suspect BS when someone starts talking about a 400, 600, 750 yd shot, unless we know and trust the source.

600 and 750 yard shots are mostly bologna IMO. There are a few videos with specialsed gear that shoot that far yet you need all that expensive gear IMO. Custom scope's with extreme BC bullets and range finders.

400 yards is also streching it. It is a great distance.

350 yards is about the magic number where things aren't extremely shakey in the scope. 350-400 yards seems much greater than 50 yards difference looking through a scope and its effect on minute shakes.

350 yards also seems to be the magic number where a person can shoot a fixed 4X and be fine.
400 yards through a 4X looks much smaller.

I wouldn't complain if I could buy a good quality, affordable fixed 5X scope and limit the rest of my hunting days to 350 yards. 95% of the shots would be under 300.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
Knowing the game size helps a lot. You knwo what a deer or elk looks like at certain ranges through your scope.

I agree. If you use certain variable power scopes with a duplex type reticule, you can range by knowing your target's dimensions. I learned that for mature whitetail bucks, when my scope is set to 8x, at 100yds the buck's backbone to brisket measurement is bracketed by the tips of the upper and lower thick posts. So if its 200 yds it's half that, 300 yds 1/3 and 400 yds 1/4. This trick only works with scopes that don't magnify the reticule when changing powers.

in high school and college, I played a left full back on the school soccer team. Standing back by the goal and looking down the field, I got pretty good at being able to judge the distance of at least a 100 yds to the other goal posts.

in the field, I often will judge ranges, by visually picking out points that are visually equal to the length of a foot ball field.. works pretty well out to about 300 yds. not always, depends on the size of the game.

I am better at it with deer than with prairie dogs.

Spending a lot of the spring shooting sage rats at distances from 50 to 300 yards also gives one a good idea of distance.. considering yoiu are shooting 2 to 4000 rounds down range.

i've done field work on this .. past about 150 yards MOST people have no clue .. none ...

i like to pick 4 sample points.. 25, 75, 150, and 300 yards... using a standard 8x11 sheet of paper, stapled to cardboard and a stick ...

at
25 yards -- most people are within 10%, no one guess 1/2 or double, on the extremes

75 yards -- still okay... they says 50 yards to about 120 yards ... or expressed in feet, to about the same.. sometimes people do guess more than that, but not usually

150 yards things are begining to break down ., alot.. guess from 100 yards to 250 are common .. most put it at 200 or so... only 2 had put it under 125

300 yards -- no friggen clue.. can't get within 20% .. most frequent guess is over 200 yards.. but its crazy how many times its 400 to 500 yards ... now, wait a second.. i mean the ACTUAL answer is "400 to 500 yards".. a range of 100 yards in an answer, not in a range of answers...

sample group of about 65 people, ALL of them going into the field, or just returned from it, with scoped rifles in their hands .. most of them experienced hunters ....

ONE guy (not me, i couldn't pass the 300 yard one either) got them all within 5% ... and he was better on the 150 and 300 yards ... had been an elk guide... when asked on the 300, he answered "300 long steps.. but you have to tell a client it was over 400... and if you take short enough steps, it was!"

Jeffe I like your post!

Judging distances gets real tricky real quick in broken steep country across small and large canyons or gullies and where large rock outcroppings are. Ever since my oldest son has been hunting with me we played a game while glassing for animals where we would guess the range of rocks or logs or other objects, deer or antelope and then get the range finder out to verify. This has done wonders for the both of us, in most situations my son doesn't miss much by 5-10%.
One thing I kept letting him know though is that out to 300 yards none of this really matters the way we have our rifles sighted in. Yes if the deer or antelope is closer to 300 end of it hold a little higher in the heart lung zone but always shoot in the hair. If its past that we need to take some time getting set up for the shot or plan a different stalk to close the deal. The kid is shooting pretty well now so I know if he fires a shot we have an animal down, if its "iffy" he just won't shoot.
(he had a "lesson" on an antelope a few years back that has really changed his shooting)

Its amazing what a range-finder will do for one's ability to judge range.

In both Colorado and Montana at elevations of 7500' and above I was amazed at my inability to judge distance. I would pick out a tree or a boulder and range it. Being an avid hunter I look through scopes and binocs all the time. I would think the distance to a certain object would be 250 to 300 yds. I would then range it. It more often than not be 500 to 600 yds.
Kind of discomforting. I had zeroed my rifle at 300 yds. At first I'd set up then range. I learned pretty quick to range then set up. Saved a lot of wasted time.
GWB

Well ...

Once upon a time, I was a surveyor. We measured distance almost every day. As a hobby we used to estimate distances (we were pretty bored). If you do it all day, every day, you can generally guess within 15-20%, at comfortable distances.

Once upon a time, I also lived in Nevada. The open desert spaces were almost impossible to judge accurately; there's a reason why the .264 WinMag and the .300 Wby were invented. In the pre-range finder West, flat trajectory was a big, big help.

I've read that the average range estimate is off by 40%; I don't remember the source, but I recall it being very scientific and authoritative. That estimate also reflects my personal experiences.

Unless a distance has been paced or lasered, I take it with a healthy grain of salt.

I use a range finder.

Fjold,

I believe that young lady on your avatar looks as good today as she did six years ago.
Never tire of watching her strut her stuff.
GWB

I agree that distance is harder to judge based on the country you are in. My hunting partner and I play the "how far do you think that is?" game when we are spot and stalking. We bet the usual beverage and both use Leupold range finders on the target. We have hunted this big country here for over 20 years and unless we have ranged it from our setup spots, we are usually well short. Incredible how hard it is to judge across canyons.

quote:

use a range finder.

Leica Geovids!
Range it, dial it, shoot it...as I've seen stated here before

I have a tough time judging distances where there are no trees or other landmarks to help with perspective. I shot a 5x5 muley buck with my 7mmRemMag back in '71. I held at the top of the shoulders and hit mid-chest. I guessed him to be about 400 yards. It turned out to be 375 paces, including mild rises and falls in elevation. I have no idea how far it actually was, but I'm guessing it was probably closer to 350 yards. It was the wind that got me. The bullet hit right at the diaphram, about a foot further back than I aimed. I would not take that shot today. I have too much respect for live game with my poor range-guessing and wind-doping skills, not to mention that it is difficult to maintain a steady sight picture in the field at that range. At least for me.

quote:

Jeffe I like your post!

I'll second that Alright!!

When I set up for shooting sage rats, I pick a spot, usually a little uphill or down hill from where I will be shooting.

I'll walk straight out from my field of fire, and pacing off distances, I put a field surveyor stake in the ground, with a ribbon on it that will show me which way the wind is blowing.

I put one at approximately 50 yds, 100 yds, 150 yds, 200 yds, 225 or 250 depending on how many I set out and what rifles I have with me.. If I have a 22.250 then I go out to 300, if only 223s, then I keep it limited to 250 yds... sometimes the 225 limit is based on the handloads I have with me. I load some rifles to lower MVs than some of my others..

The stakes were like $1 to $1.25 at the local hardware stock, and the fluorescent ribbons are like $2.50 for a roll of 100 yds or so of it.
So it is a cheap solution.. only other thing needed is a rubber mallet to knock them into the ground if the dirt is hard.. which usually is not the case, since we are shooting on farm fields of alfalfa.

Occasionally a buddy shows up that has a range finder, and this method I am usually not off a whole heck of a lot. Going back to using that old military 30 inch marching step they drilled into us so well.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
in high school and college, I played a left full back on the school soccer team. Standing back by the goal and looking down the field, I got pretty good at being able to judge the distance of at least a 100 yds to the other goal posts.

How old are you? It is 120 yards from goal post to goal post. Has been for quite some time...

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
in high school and college, I played a left full back on the school soccer team. Standing back by the goal and looking down the field, I got pretty good at being able to judge the distance of at least a 100 yds to the other goal posts.

How old are you? It is 120 yards from goal post to goal post. Has been for quite some time...

well back in the 1960s, stateside where I played, we used 100 yd fields.. a lot of the time it was off season football field, with the goal posts changed is about all..

when I learned to play in Europe, I know the fields were longer and wider..that was between 1963 and 1966...

As I've stated in the past judging distance is the largest factor in bad hits and misses. Certain animals and experience makes it easier but on large animals I've seen distances wildly misjudged. I agree with your inside 300 yard thoughts and admit when I hear about 500 and 600 yard shots/kills I'm not impressed, I'm thinking about how many wounded animals are left out there. I would love a physics genuis to figure out how little you need to weaver to miss at 100 yrds, 300 yrds and 500 yrds. The range is one thing but in hunt conditions?????

Judging distance can be learned with practice, but actually shooting beyond 500 yds is tough when you are looking at an 8-12" vital circle. Using a 308 as an example, the difference between 450 and 500 yds is over 8". Things that come into play when computing drop are Barometric pressure, temperature, humidity, actual velcoity, and of course wind. Even harder to gauge is wind drift. Wind varies considerably across that 500 yds. I am dubious about most claims of over 300 yds and almost all over 500.

John

Mil Dot and range finders. These days there are pocket size electronic ballistic calculators. Technology has taken a lot of the guess out of range estimation. "Modern Sniper" on the Mil. Channel the other day was showing the Army M 24 (Rem. 700 heavy barrel, .308 Win.) "doping the scope" with a calculator out to 700, 800 measured yards.