The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Rifles magazine has special issue covering 6.5mm cartridges only.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
Have the 6.5 creedmoor and 6.5 PRC and the like caused there to be a 6.5mm "all the rage" for all 6.5s? | ||
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And the Swede guys are shaking their collective heads saying we told ya so 50 years ago! | |||
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The most interesting thing is not the bullet diameter per se but the fact that these cartridges are being designed for long range from the high BC bullets to the twist rates to precision rifles all at blue collar prices. The gun industry wants to make especially the 6.5 Creedmoor a success story and it’s making it inevitable to pump life into the industry. If it were being done in the quarter bore the result would be the same. I personally would love to see the 257 Creedmoor become a commercial success and rumor has it that is in the works. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Yes, new things are made to sell more rifles; guys instinctively want something "new" even if it duplicates the performance of something from 130 years ago. Where the Swedes made the biggest mistake is not making their brass from the already available .473 head size of the Mauser 7mm. We feel that pain now in having to use the bastard head size. | |||
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And pretty much every story in this issue has run before. Skimmed thru it while shopping, save your money if you are already a subscriber. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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I agree with your sentence about recreational shooters of the future, otherwise, I have no idea what you are disagreeing with. But I like your handle; it was my favorite TV show in the 1980s. My comment, however, stands on its own, as is. | |||
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"Where the Swedes made the biggest mistake is not making their brass from the already available .473 head size of the Mauser 7mm." It was only eight years between the invention of the revolutionary 8mm 1886 Lebel(230g bullet 650m/s) and 6,5*55 patron m94(156g 725ms) and the Lebel was already antique. | |||
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Alf, The only problem with your post is it's irrelevance to the topic at at hand. Neither the 6.5 PRC or the 6.5 Creedmoor were military developments. Reading comprehension is the first casualty of the internet. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Personal attacks aside, ALF I always wondered why the 6.5x55 and the 9.3x62 wasn't the same case head diameter as the 7x57 and the later 8x57. After all the dimensional differences are pretty slight. It would seem that standardizing on a single diameter while varying the bullet diameters to meet the various countries requirements would make things easier all round. My personal theory is that since smokeless powder was still very much in its infancy and each cartridge design was started pretty much with a blank sheet of paper. So what later ended up being a kind of standard really hadn't yet been decided on. Sorry to drag the thread away from its original topic but I've always been curious about this. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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All of the manufacturers are certainly trying to compete/cash in. My answer to the original question is yes. My concern is: if the 6.5x284 is a 1000 round per barrel PRC competition round (it is), how many folks are going to spend the dough for, and endure the recoil to compete with the 6.5PRC and similar rounds? I can see that round catching on in the hunting realm, but are the long range obsessed really that obsessed! Time will tell. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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Mauser had been in full production of the 1891, 7mm, for 3 years, but the Swedes didn't get the memo and decided to go their own way. I get that. It is just wishful thinking at this point. It wasn't a mistake for them of course; they were not going to try to make brass from German 7mm brass (read 30-06) for our hunting rifles like we would want to do now. For those who also didn't get the memo (Yes, I got some hate mail from a couple of guys who said I was incorrect) The Swede used a.480 case head size. Meaning you can't make brass from any other common size, remember that even the standard US and German military cartridges, and a whole bunch of civilian cartridges, are directly derived from the .473 7mm Mauser case. Yes, not the 9.3 either; It is another bastard size. | |||
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It’s like people buying Corvettes. Yes the new Corvettes are pretty much track cars and performance demons but they’re designed to carry golf clubs because we all know that most people who buy Corvettes are retired golfers who will never use the Corvette to it’s at most performance. Same goes for these accurate cartridges. Very few people actually use them to their utmost performance but they like the idea of it. Knowing that they can somehow makes him feel better or more superior. An inflated sense of performance or maybe a security blanket that will help them on a poor shot.
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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But the CIP spec rims of 7x57 are .476 not .473 of the ‘06 (nor is it the same diameter of the M88 aka 8x57) this is why people using S&B, PPU or even RWS brass often find themselves struggling to fit fired cases into an ‘06 shell holder. Using the same parent case simplifies production, which is good for hunting ammo, making a new case to fit a ballistic criterion and reliable feeding under harsh conditions wins military contracts. I doubt the companies putting in tenders for the new 6,8 round give two hoots about availability of a parent case they can modify when the tender will be for millions of rounds Formerly Gun Barrel Ecologist | |||
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Despite what seems like a 10 thou rim difference, is it possible the 6.5x55 can function in the bolt face of a 9.3x62? I ask because a friend bought a Sauer 200 with a 9.3 barrel and one for the 6.5x57. However, finding the smaller cartridges too hard/expensive to buy, he managed to swap that barrel for one in 6.5x55, which has a big following here since Swedish milsurp rifles flooded the market late last century. | |||
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Why not get a 6.5x57 over the 6.5 Swede?  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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In reality most American ammo companies don't use correct head size 6.5x55 brass for their factory offerings. They use 7x57 brass or the equivalent. I've read but don't actually know because I've never owned an American factory rifle chambered in 6.5x55, but supposedly they even chamber their rifles to use the smaller diameter brass. My rifles are a Kimber of Oregon sporterized Husqvarna and an original military Carl Gustav M96. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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Getting back to original topic; all the 6.5's have a lot going for them or they wouldn't have survived from the beginning of the smokeless era until today. They offer much more than the 6mm's which is why all the new cartridges have come out for the target shooting crowd and have been adapted by hunters. But the oldies haven't lost anything by comparison. Bottom line is choose the one you like and go for it. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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There is enough “slop” in Sauer, Mauser, Merkel and Blaser boltheads that a 7x57, 6,5x55, 7x64 and 9,3x62 all fit in the “standard” .30’06 bolt head. The WSM and H&H cases both fit the same Magnum bolt head Formerly Gun Barrel Ecologist | |||
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"I doubt the companies putting in tenders for the new 6,8 round give two hoots about availability of a parent case they can modify when the tender will be for millions of rounds" One of the companies developing 6,8mm rounds Sig Sauer actually use the same .273 headsize as 7,62nato and 3006. I doubt they can get the wanted speed and weight reduction with their round but thay can use standard equipment for ammo and rifletools for the bid. https://www.thefirearmblog.com...en-ceo-of-sig-sauer/ | |||
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Interesting link Nordic, Sig are playing the “steel and brass is more eco friendly than polymer” and “compatibility with 7,62Nato would be handy” cards. Textron on the other hand have convinced H&K and Olin to help them in mass production https://www.thefirearmblog.com...6/textron-talk-ngsw/ (We should probably keep this in the other thread but it is strangely relevant. Did the Swedes have an ammunition plant already mass producing .473” diameter cases when they adopted the 6,5x55, I don’t think so) Formerly Gun Barrel Ecologist | |||
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Skultuna Messingsbruk had a production of brass/cupper for the older Remington rolling block rifles but it seems like there was a huge gap in production capacity then the new 6,5mm was introduced. Nordiska Metall Aktiebolaget was founded 1897 their main production were copper pipes and brass bolts, in early 1900s they bought machines for production of 6,5mm cases and 1902 their production reached 7000000 cases. They also had production of 6,5mm and 8mm bullets and ammunition, with a loading station and shooting range outside their factory. | |||
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Most of the 6.5 cartridges are ok for shooting light to medium game at 150 to 200 yards, however,because bullet diameter is small the potential for wounding increases beyond these ranges. A lot of game is wounded and lost with 6.5's and smaller cartridge but we don't hear about it. There are far bigger and better cartridges available than the various 6.5's possibly with the exception of the .264 magnum and the 6.5x68 The good old 30-06 with 180 grain bullets is probably the best for all-round use, certainly far superior to the 6.5 Swede or newer varieties. | |||
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This is funny stuff right here.! Actually a lot of game is wounded and lost by POOR SHOOTING with any cartridge. This attitude that bigger is better and Magnum speed with same size bullets is the kind of horse crap that wounds game. A poor shot is a poor shot. Good shooting kills game not "Magnum Speed". | |||
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The hunter who wounded most moose in my old hunting team used a 3006 probably with 180g bullets as they are the most common in Sweden, its not the cartridge fault he was a bad shooter and afraid of the recoil. On Scandinavian moose you have difficult to tell the difference between the effect of 6,5*55 and 3006 the both calibers have a average running distance of about 40m. | |||
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I said the various 6.5's were ok for shooting at game out to 150 to 200 yards, after that the possibility of wounding an animal increases even if hit in the right place. Using larger cartridges with bigger and heavier bullets is better because it provides greater versatility depending on distance,terrain and weather conditions etc. I have used the 6.5x55 extensively and know its limitations, what concerns me is the inappropriate use of the cartridge at extended ranges beyond its capabilities. I remember what Gregor Woods said in his very fine book ''Rifles for Africa'' saying that he uses the .375 for everything because it takes the doubt out of hunting and everything he hits with it just falls down. Using the 6.5 is fine within its limits but use it enough and stretch its limitation and eventually failure will occur resulting in lost game. | |||
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I got my copy of the magazine today. A 6.5 loaders dream giving over 500 loads for my PRC and many more for all the 6.5’s. Also great commentary on powders and all components. If you shoot a 6.5 and load it is must have reference. Good Shooting. phurley | |||
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Fixed it. I am back from a long Hiatus... or whatever. Take care. smallfry | |||
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I have 6.5 TCU 6.5 Grendal 6.5 Jap 6.5 x54 6.5x55 260 rem 260 rem imp. 260 AAR (6.5x57 imp ) 256 newton 6.5 Gibbs 6.5 284 264 mag and maybe one or two I've forgotten, shot and hunted with them for 40 yrs, using 1-7 through 1-10 twist barrels. 77 grn bullets to 160's. All I ever ended up with is a huge pile of dead animals..... must be doing something wrong? | |||
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your probably flinching the bullet over a couple of inches hitting vital organs. | |||
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You might be right Lamar, I usually try to hit them half way up and half way back, a perfect gutshot. Alas, at times I hit them in the heart or lungs, and like hit with anything there, they die.  | |||
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I subscribe to a number of rifle/hunting magazines, but not 'Rifles' magazine. Due to this thread, I bought this magazine issue off the news stand, and I learned a lot about the various 6.5s. I only own a 6.5x55 Swede caliber, so the rest was instructive. Thanks for the heads up on a good issue!  | |||
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The 264 win mag and 260 rem are my favorite 6.5 cartridges .They both are awesome cartridges that are both super accurate .I don't need any new 6.5 rounds these are just fine ! | |||
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I agree wholeheartedly. There is a difference when measuring 6.5x55 rim diameter of American made brass (Winchester and Remington), vs. European brass, (NNY, Norma and PPU). Yet all seem to function properly in my Howa, FN commercial Mauser and in my Swede milsurp. Shoot Safe, Mike NRA Endowment Member | |||
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