Ok, the Ruger thread has gone on for a while; I've heard of problems from all/most of the production builders at one time or another. In your opinion, which PRODUCTION rifle builders don't suck? Who has the most consistent quality and who's doing a good job? To be fair, let's divide the products into Economy, Normal, and Upscale categories.

And don't even tell me that you can't find a decent rifle unless it's custom and costs over $5k.

analog_peninsula

Economy priced rifles, my votes go to Savage, Howa, Stevens.

Normal priced rifles, my votes go to Thompson Center, Remington, and CZ.

I don't own expensive rifles!

In my experience, all be it limited by budget, only TC seems to have a consistant rep for quality in their Contender and Encore. Their inlines are not really trouble free either.

As I've said before, I've had some kind of issue with every manufacturer at least once. Nate

From a European perspective CZ and Tikka build economy rifles which can reasonably be expected to function well straight from the box. This is not to say they may not benefit from a few tweaks, but they will do most things as is. Current new cost in the UK c.£600.

In the middle of the Euro market Sako and Steyr-Mannlicher build pretty decent rifles with good triggers and an expectation of sub-moa accuracy on day one. Unfortunately both these brands suffer from the perception that they have reduced their quality over recent years and model changes. I don't necessarily agree with this, but the view is there. Current new cost £800-£900.

At the upper end of the Euro factory market, Sauer build excellent rifles that need nothing other than cleaning of packing grease, loading and shooting. Very accurate, I have yet to hear of one that won't do near 0.5MOA. Mauser and Heym also build good rifles, I have little experience of them however. I won't comment on Blaser's as I am personally biased against them. Current new costs £1,000-£2,500 depending on wood and engraving upgrades.

I've had no problems w/ the Ruger's, Rem's, or Winchester's. I think it's like anything mass produced today; pay your money & take your cahnces. BTW, this can be said for custom stuff. too. My gunsmith has had to repair several rifles from top name custom guys, so again, pay your money & take your chances.

I agree with Fredj338 - it is like buying a car, you will get a bad one every so often. I have had several guns - the best of the best have been a 12ga Remington Wingmaster 870 , a Model 70 Winchester (post 64) CRF in .300 win mag - both shoot great and have for several years.

I have had several Sako's but always had trouble with the Sako rings staying tight. Sold them.

The worst I ever had was a Winchester Model 21 in a 20ga with double triggers. The triggers never worked right and were loose, plus the soldering between the barrels came loose. Sold it for $900. Best sale I ever made. I have never owned a gun that gave me problems, then got it fixed, that I ever wanted to keep.

No good answer to your question - buy what you like, try it out, if it does not perform - sell it quick on the AR Classifieds.

The following companies are high in my esteem:
Marlin, Smith and Wessen, Howa and their private labels, Browning, SKB, Winchesters (a historic issue now), Mossberg, Ruger handguns, Taurus, Miroku, NEF, Remington (at least the ones I've owned), and Colt.

There may be many more excellent manufacturers but I can't comment on those I haven't owned.

Years ago I swore off Savage, Ruger long guns, Weatherby Mark V, and FIE.

For my money the CZ's get a BIG A+. I have 3 and all are extremely accurate right out of the box. I purchased a new M70 Featherweight in 6.5x55 for my son last year, it's a nice rifle, but it shoots for shit. Should have bought him a CZ 550 American!!

Stevens,,,have 3 all shoot great

I like Browning and Winchester M70. I also have an old WWII german 8mm Mauser that still shoots great.

CZ's, I have three and all shoot sub moa consistently and function reliably everytime.
2nd choice would be Sako/Tikka

For low priced rifles believe it or not Hi-Point. I once broke a firing pin dry firing my 995 carbine and felt I'ed take advantage of the unconditonal lifetime warranty even though I paid $90 for it at a pawn shop used.

In a week and a half I had my carbine back. It had a brand new stock a polished feed ramp a new better trigger 2 extra magazines all of the accecories and a scope mount to boot.

For midrange guns CZ of course.

"Who doesn't suck"

Great question.
As long as untrained masses abuse rifles there is no brand that is safe.


"The trouble with America today is that the stupid are unwavering and the intelligent have many doubts"

I really like Kimbers and Sako's.........DJ

Ill add winchesters to DJ's list, Though both of the sakos i had sucked.

Look around & find an older M70 or M700 or the tang safety M77 & barrel to your choice of caliber. Slap it in a syn. stock if that floats your boat & I'm sure you'll be happy. If you want to spend $400 for a hunting rifle, get a Savage, ugly, but they do shoot.

High-end - Blaser

Midrange - Remington & Winchester

Economy - Savage

O.K., I'm left-Handed so I'm biased to manufacturers who make rifles & shotguns for me.

I'm a Blaser fan. Yeah, high end and the love/hate thing just abounds but an R93 with five barrels and a single-shot K95 have me very satisfied. Gave out big $$$ but have never had an issue with their equipment and they all shoot sub-moa right out of the box. They make the ONLY equipment I ever purchased from a manufacturer that I haven't had to tweak some way or another; they're all factory as-issued after many years.

Happy with the L/H 870's and 1100's but unfortuneately my biggest disappointment from a major manufacturer was a long sought-after Left-Handed short action Remington Model 700 BDL in .243 Winchester. A special order and when it arrived I've absolutley no idea how it got out of the factory. The short list would have been what was right with the rifle - what was wrong would cover half a page - Ugh! Sold it, try to get a rifle sent half-way around the world factory serviced, no way.

Economy vote goes to Savage. I love 'em and always have; even years ago when I took alot of stick. They invariably shoot fantastic and are great value but many have required some tweaking primarily Savage's weak points, stocks and older triggers, not the new AccuTrigger.

My next aquisition will be a T/C Encore Pro Hunter with additional barrels, their relibility reputation solid and accuracy expectations are also apparently good. It's nice to read the above comments about them.

Gerry, I just bought a Steyr .222 which I have not even had a chance to fire yet, I will get it zeroed at the weekend. When I was looking at .222rem rifles in the shop, the guy showed me a new .222 Remington, I think it was a BDL. It had a black plastic stock and the metal was finished in some matt black substance, possibly bead blasted first. This was a worst new gun I have ever had in my hand. It looked woeful. The bolt was a rough as gravel. The fit if the action to the stock was a joke. I won't even talk about the trigger pull. If the guy had been giving it away, I would not have taken it home.

The problem I see is that the bulk of American rifle buying public, who make up a large proportion of the world's market, would rather have 15 cheap rifles that cost under $500 each new, than a few well chosen top quality pieces. The US based manufacturers are feeding that market. They are supported by gun magazines and the likes of Walmart. The discerning customer is then left to look elsewhere. The alternative, and we hear it on this site all the time, is where guys view a new rifle as a starting point to get to somewhere they want to go.

Somebody used a car analogy earlier. Who wants to buy a new car and spend as much again to get it to work satisfactorily?

quote:

Originally posted by Claret_Dabbler:
Gerry, I just bought a Steyr .222 which I have not even had a chance to fire yet, I will get it zeroed at the weekend.

Hey Claret_Dabbler,

What model Steyr did you get?

As my signature may imply I'm a Steyr Mannlicher fan.

Steyrl, I just bought a new Steyr-Mannlicher classic delux. It's the SBS system with the twist barrel ad upgraded walnut stock. Absolutely gorgeous. We'll see how it shoots in the next few days.

quote:

Originally posted by analog_peninsula:
which PRODUCTION
analog_peninsula

Production? Like I would know!!

but I like ruger's for doners these days

jeffe

My experience with used guns is somewhat mixed.
Of used hunting rifles the most trouble free have been circa 50s FN Mausers and model 70s. Of the dozen or so I've owned and the keepers, I've done nothing to make them shoot except custom reloads. Of the ones that threw flyers, it took no more than sandpaper and linseed oil to fix them. Remington comes in third except for varmint rifles which were a different story as Remington is the clear winner here in my opinion.
Regarding new guns, I have three favorites that have proven themselves. CZ and Remington's Sendero, then the Kimber on the high end.
Last, but not least, are early Sakos. I can't badmouth a single one as all I have owned, or shot were great rigs. From 17 Remington, to 338 Winchester, the single biggest criticizism against Sako is their magazine -especially the replacement cost.
My favorite handguns revolve around either S&W, or Sig. The worst were series 80 Colts and a Browning Challenger. The last two in particular were the biggest POS I have ever had the misfortune of owning, worse even than the wartime junkers and parts guns normaly traded at gun shows.

CZ for absolute, positvely dead certain. I own two, talked to my little bro and he now owns three of them. I just located a CZ 527 in .223 Remington used, but in like new condition, from a gunshop, for a friend for $300 out the door. Not a bad deal at all. Both my CZs are by far, the most accurate and downright nice looking rifles that I own. My CZ 550 American in 7x57mm is an honest to goodness three shot, half=inch grouping rifle at 100 yards with my 162 grain Hornady SST handloads. Tom Purdom

for reliablity it has been hard to fault winchester classic stainless m70s and Marlin 1895 guide gun. I have had a couple of the winchesters and they have performed flawlessly. They would definately be my go to rifle.

With Rugers most have been veryr reliable, only had one problem child in 35 whelen, but questionable on accuracy.

Aside from the extractor on the Rem 700 I have found them to be very accurate, reliable, and normally fairly light compared to the others. Its fairly simple to get the extractor converted to sako or AR15 style extractor.

Oh ya

MI Garands do not suck,,,,

and Im partial to my carbine krag,,,,but it is a weak action just keep the loads low.

since when, does the price of a piece of equipment--GUARANTEE you that it will place every bullet thru the same initial hole??????

some one has their ideas on backwards, examine your thoughts.

My Rems, all do good, Sako is good,WBY, is good,
Win gave me alot of trouble.

I've got a bunch of SAKO's and Sauers, and none of them approach 'sucking'!

As to rings slipping around, I've never had that issue, I mostly use Talley's, some of SAKO's optilocks, and a few sets of Warnes--no issues with any of them. All my Sauers have Talley's except the integral base lightweights, which have Warnes on them.

This comment fits the economy class. I punch a time clock and cannot afford spendy guns.

The only production bolt action I purchased in the last few years is a Howaby (Weatherby) Vanguard. I am very impressed with the fit, finish and overall quality. To be fair to Savage and Stevens, I was all set to get a Stevens 200. The Vanguard was clearanced at $299 making the purchase of the Vanguard a no brainer.

While shopping for the Vanguard I looked at several guns. I was impressed with Stevens and Savage. Not impressed with Remington and the late unlamented Winchester.

ZM

I like Sakos (not the M995 TRGS) and Matos (although they are no longer in production).

Don't have any Kimbers yet but they are on my "next to buy" list.

Pre-64 Winchesters don't suck, maybe that's why they are still so valuable.

Brownings don't really suck in the accuracy department, but their actions are a rattle-trap.

I think any rifle that has such a short mag so you can't load out to the lands suck!

I really like Kimber.

Who sucks:

Marlin
Remington
Ruger
Savage
Weatherby
Winchester (all post 64)


Who doesn't (IMO):

Blaser
FN
Husqvarna
Kimber (after being re-worked because initially it sucked)
Mauser
M-S
Sako
Sauer
Tikka
Some custom gunmakers

If I were asked to recommend a factory rifle that would be MOA or better accurate, reliable and quick and handy to use - and all of those things right out of the factory box - and if price were not an issue, I would recommend the Blaser R93.

SAKO ROX!

Friedrich Wilhelm HEYM GmbH. Repetier built at Heymhoff 'lock, stock, and barrel'. They use excellent outsourced components from ERA, Timney,.... when prn.

Mauser don't suck, Winchesters don't suck, CZ's don't suck, Howa doesn't suck, Sako doesn't suck.

Remington sucks BIG TIME

I like Rigby rifles and Holland & Holland rifles. Just wish I could afford one. Now that sucks!

Unlike some of the others, I have a bunch that don't. These are Remingtons, Rugers, CZ's, FN's, MKX Zastavas, Weatherbys, winchesters, and a pair of Whitworths. I have of course owned some that were not perfect or were less accurate than some others. Most can be made to shoot pretty well with just a little tinkering.

my EX-wife...!

quote:

Originally posted by Claret_Dabbler:
Steyrl, I just bought a new Steyr-Mannlicher classic delux. It's the SBS system With the twist barrel ad upgraded walnut stock. Absolutely gorgeous. We'll see how it shoots in the next few days.

I don't know what you mean by "TWIST BARREL" but if you are refering to the spiral on the barrel, those are the smoothed,and ploished markings left on the barrel from the rotory hammers during the cold hammer forgeing of the barrel over the rifleing mandral. These are normally turned off on the lathe, on most hammer forged barrels. Steyr leaves them on their LUX models, and some people don't like that look, I personally love it!

Why I asked about your statement above about the rifle haveing a "TWIST BARREL", is, where I live in the USA, a "TWIST BARREL" means a Damaskus, or "TWIST STEEL" barrel. A matter of semantics, I'm sure.

I saw the pictures of that Steyr on another string, and it is a beautiful rifle!

Congratulations!