Most of our lives we have been brain washed in the written and verbals word to believe that some guns are bush veld short range calibers and others are long range di no mite...Yes, there are both, but the numbers are wrong. We all agree the 45-70 is short range and the RUMs are long range, but what about the great medium calibers?

For example the 35 Whelen, the 9.3x62, the 338-06, and a few others are alleged to be short range bush veld, timber rifles, not fit for shots beyond 300 or 400 yards, which I find obsurd..

I find that strange and contridictory, and belive they are the step children of certain gun scribes that made those statement long ago and folks with little experience have passed that on for some years now because so and so said so, so it must be.

The fact is everyone of those calibers shoots as flat as a 180 gr. 30-06, a caliber well described and accepted as a near perfect mountain and plains rifle, which it is, no doubt about that to anyone who has used it extensively..

I agree that some of the new 300s are hell benders for long range shooting but if you will do your homework, the difference in the bigger 7s and 30s is really not that much unless you consider a 100 or 200 FPS substantial, I do not! and certainly cannot tell much difference in killing effect on game. I post this because I have never been a caliber person persay, but a stickler for proper bullets and placement, A bad hit is a bad hit regardless or caliber within reason.

Just my two bits, but curious to how those that disagree arrived at there conclusions other than it just has to be true! I do respect anyones option to use whatever they want, that's not the question here.

At my last warm weather shooting session with friends I was firing my M98 9.3x62 at a 12" x 24" target and connecting every time at 330 yards. Long enough range for me. The nine three is my favorite rifle and goes along for everything. 286 gr. Prvi SPs over RL-15.

You can discuss ballistic coefficients, you can plug numbers in the computer, you can even go to the range and shoot away to prove it, but its just too hard to believe that 35 whelens can shoot as flat as 30-06s. Its hard wired.

The good news is that you don't really need to convince anybody accept yourself.

30-06,22 inch barrel, 180 tsx or 200 partition, powder burns on the hair to 400 yards.

brush gun eh! -that would be a blaser - after looking at one you throw it in the brush and run away

brush country gun is a real thing .. brush guns, in my not so humble opinion, aren't a thing, rather a gun writers myth

for example, the oft maligned-by-recoil-sissies - 358 winchester .. light, short, hard hitting.. doesn't "buck" any brush ... twigs still cause misses..

but short, light, and hard hitting in brush country, where it hits game HARD is great...

but most of these rounds can deliver a lethal shot well past "short range".. but some flinchers might not be able to SHOOT that well...

the next writers myth that cracks me up is "a longer barrel is MORE accurate" ..

or people that interchange precise with accuracy.

Here's my brush gun for this next year. Very fast handling, light weight and really points like a dream...not blued steel and walnut but I'm kind of impressed with the little thing. 16" bbl in 458 SOCOM, home made brake, contoured/chambered, assembled by myself and looks like it will shoot about 1 MOA with the 325gr Hornady Flextips at 1700fps. I put a 1-4 Leupold on it and it should do a great job on any shot I've encountered hunting whitetails here in WI. I know I know...blasphemy you say, I like my BLR in 358 or the 71 in 348 too...this is just the latest toy.

Ray, you make some good points. I hand load and wouldn't hesitate to use my 358 Win, my 9.3x62 or my 45-70 out from 250 to 300 yards with the right bullet/powder combination. I am an older hunter and now, my personal max range for hunting large game is around 300 yards. I would consider the calibers to be medium range calibers. While I like them better for hunting brush than my 300 Win Mag or 25-06, I would use them if that's what I had in my hands at the time.

Just noticed this was the 'medium bore' so I'll add that my first memorable 'brush' experience was with a win 70 featherweight in 6.5x55 swede. Maybe a 50 yard shot at an 8pt thru popple brush (thick). Maybe 22 years old, I thought, hell, it's right there and I shouldn't miss. Well I did, and the buck ran across a beaver slough and stood in some light willow brush on the far side with nothing but clear space between us. I estimated where the chest was and shot him through the lungs. When skinning him I found a perfect silhouette of a long 140 gr 6.5mm bullet on his side. Did the job I guess. The next year, same area I shot a doe with a 348 Win Model 71 and 220gr Barnes. Didn't see a small popple in the way and when I took that one's hide off there were TWO entry wounds about 1 1/2 feet apart. One thought the high shoulder, one just in front of the rear quarter. I don't believe there is a brush busting bullet although I have read a 12 ga roundball flies pretty true.

To me a brush gun is just a quick handling rifle or carbine.
Most of my hunting arms fit that description.
My 308s are handy in the brush , but sure can shoot a 300 yard shot if need be. Same withe my .257 Roberts, its a ruger rl 20 inch barrel 3100 fps with a 100 grain barnes, will shoot as far as i want too,
I had a whelen , and it can be versatile, but i sold it cause its as heavy as my .338 Win and the 338 shoots flatter.
...tj3006

Ray,

While my .358 Winchester is indeed a neat woods rifle I see that the .35" bullets it uses just don't have the ballistic shape that the 180 gr or similar .30 calibers do!.

The 'best' bullet I see in the Nosler book shows that the 200 gr .358 Accubond has a ballistic C. of 0.365 and the 180 gr .308 bullet has a BC of 0.507!

That's quite a big difference! That means that the sleeker bullet will drift less, drop less, and be going a little faster which may aid expansion at long range!

I have been woods hunting with the 358 since 1966. I use the 30-06 etc. for longer ranges.

Here's my brush gun

quote:

Originally posted by dean119:
You can discuss ballistic coefficients, you can plug numbers in the computer, you can even go to the range and shoot away to prove it, but its just too hard to believe that 35 whelens can shoot as flat as 30-06s. Its hard wired.

The good news is that you don't really need to convince anybody accept yourself.

Yes, the 30-06 has to be flatter.

But to the point of the thread:
my idea of a brush gun is something that is so accurate that I can thread a needle and slip a bullet between some branches to reach a stationary animal. Keeping the arc to a maximum of 2.1" inches over the line of sight is important. Likewise, 1" MOA or better allows one to shoot alongside a tree that is blocking part of the animal.

A reasonably good scope is also a must because it allows one to see the branches on the way to the animal. In medium thick foliage a 200 yard shot is just about at the extreme edge of visibility, and many times visibility will be limited to 50-100 yards. 7 to 10 power magnification is plenty to avoid branches out to 200 yards.

Calibre? They are all good. Though I tend to prefer hunting between 2600-3100 fps. Most of my hunting includes openings that go 300+ yards, so I like "flat" and using a short +2" radius trajectory-tunnel out to the game.

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
My idea of a brush gun has little to do with what cartridge it shoots and everything to do with fast handling and target acquisition...

A .308 win with a 24" heavy varmit/sniper barrel, a 6x24 mill for scope is a big "no thank you" for most of my hunting..

A Browning 81 BLR .308 with a 2x7 heavy duplex will get the nod from me on the still hunting where brush is involved.

Todd

BINGO!!! x2

I love how guys get so whacked out on having the exact perfect rig for the exact perfect situation at the exact perfect time and the exact perfect place, only to be such a lard ass that they are winded by a flight of stairs.

Mod 760 ,30-06 , 18" barrel, Scout mounted scope. roger

I don't know about brush guns but I have some opinions on rush scopes. No more that 3, but preferably 2 power at the lowest setting. And fit so you cash shoot it quickly off hand.

I think everyone peeing down their legs about "brush guns" needs to stop and thing about what constitutes a grouse and woodcock gun.

The vast majority have 28 inch barrels. A few have 26 inch barrels. Fewer yet have 24 inch barrels. A vanishingly small number have shorter barrels than 24 inches.

People who pontificate that "brush guns" must have short barrels are funny. If the gun fits, if it's decently balanced and has a quick sighting system, it'll do as well as anything. As for caliber, if you shoot sticks/twigs you'll lose a lot of money betting on where the bullet goes from anything you can fire from your shoulder.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by miles58:
I think everyone peeing down their legs about "brush guns" needs to stop and thing about what constitutes a grouse and woodcock gun.

The vast majority have 28 inch barrels. A few have 26 inch barrels. Fewer yet have 24 inch barrels. A vanishingly small number have shorter barrels than 24 inches.

Shotgun barrel length is arrived at by different parameters than that of the rifle.
If the rifle has a scope than sight radius is of no consequence.
The rifle velocity is not as dependent on barrel length as the shotgun .
Reduced barrel weight can be significant on a long days hunt.
The long barrels are definitely more difficult to drag through the tamaracks and oak brush .
As for shooting thru brush , for most knowledgeable hunters that isn't what fits the definition of " Brush Gun " .
Kind a reminds me of a comparison of Kentucky Wonder Poles and Bananas. roger

And the real reason to get a brush gun is so that you can justify buying another gun.

Face it we are collectors of firearms for made up reasons.

Hell, I'm building a .338 Lapua and have a very accurate .340 Weatherby in my safe. But damn it, I need a .338 Lapua or I am not a complete man.

Jeremy

quote:

Shotgun barrel length is arrived at by different parameters than that of the rifle.

Bullshit! They are measured exactly the same way.


oldIf the rifle has a scope than sight radius is of no consequence.

Nobody is arguing sight radius, but the fact that you don't comprehend that doesn't slow you down any more than the bartrel length ignorance.

Roll EyesThe rifle velocity is not as dependent on barrel length as the shotgun .

See the answer to the above.

WinkReduced barrel weight can be significant on a long days hunt.

And precisely what has this to do with mythical "brush guns"?


FrownerThe long barrels are definitely more difficult to drag through the tamaracks and oak brush .

Explain to me how they're so much harder to drag through an aspen cutting than a 28 inch shotgun barrel that need to handle much faster moving game please.

As for shooting thru brush , for most knowledgeable hunters that isn't what fits the definition of " Brush Gun " .
lol Kind a reminds me of a comparison of Kentucky Wonder Poles and Bananas. beer roger

Kind of reminds me of people who post a bunch and don't have a clue about what they are saying.

quote:

Originally posted by miles58:

quote:

Shotgun barrel length is arrived at by different parameters than that of the rifle.

Bullshit! They are measured exactly the same way.


oldIf the rifle has a scope than sight radius is of no consequence.

Nobody is arguing sight radius, but the fact that you don't comprehend that doesn't slow you down any more than the bartrel length ignorance.

Roll EyesThe rifle velocity is not as dependent on barrel length as the shotgun .

See the answer to the above.

WinkReduced barrel weight can be significant on a long days hunt.

And precisely what has this to do with mythical "brush guns"?


FrownerThe long barrels are definitely more difficult to drag through the tamaracks and oak brush .

Explain to me how they're so much harder to drag through an aspen cutting than a 28 inch shotgun barrel that need to handle much faster moving game please.

As for shooting thru brush , for most knowledgeable hunters that isn't what fits the definition of " Brush Gun " .
lol Kind a reminds me of a comparison of Kentucky Wonder Poles and Bananas. beer roger

Kind of reminds me of people who post a bunch and don't have a clue about what they are saying.

YOU WIN ! roger

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by 16Bore:
I love how guys get so whacked out on having the exact perfect rig for the exact perfect situation at the exact perfect time and the exact perfect place, only to be such a lard ass that they are winded by a flight of stairs.

Hey... I resemble that remark... What gets me is how this conversation went from brush guns to one dude thinking only skinny folks have a valid oppinion but that is certainly your perogotive... If you like checking out guys who are we to say anything about that?... It's obvious the physical appearance of other men matters too you. More power too ya..

Todd

I am fairly certain his point is that being in shape is a lot more important than having the exact rifle for the exact type of game in the exact condition.

One thing no one mentioned is that a short barreled rifle makes a smaller "arc" when you swing it in a tree stand, making it a bit harder to detect by some unsuspecting deer.

As for the .35 Whelan being a long range gun, the wind drift alone kills any excitement I might have. Kind of like getting a .338 Lapua and shooting 185 or 225 grain bullets.

there ARE a lot more 400+ yard hunting rifles than capable 400+yd owners...

I hunt in a lot of brush and big timber country my favorite is a model 99 24 inch 300 sav 165 gr at 2450 and a 1.75x5 scope.

tomorrow that might change but the 99 has worked well for the last dozen years or so.

I also do a lot of brush / thick woods hunting, and my preferences are either a drilling loaded with two 12 gauge slugs and a 196gr 8mm bullet, or my 9.3x74R double rifle.

I have a Savage 99f in .300 Savage with a Redfield 2X7 on it. It's sweet on stilts.

But it's my consolation rifle: I had a chance at two M88 Wins with 2.5X Weaver scopes, one in .308 Win the other in .243. I could have had both for (if memory serves) about $1300 - $1400. Both were in excellent shape.

Sigh . . . the two I stupidly let get away . . .

But that 99f has eased my pain.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
there ARE a lot more 400+ yard hunting rifles than capable 400+yd owners...

ON THE NOSE .Rich roger

Bill, i recently got a 99f in .308
When i shot it i quickly sold my w88 in the same round.the 88 is a stronger action, and not a bad rifle but the trigger is not near as good, and its just not as well balanced ,
lever guns are cool though !
...tj3006

Ive got short range guns, long range guns and my own 800 yard shooting range. On a typical day we will will shoot a variety at progressively longer distances, and it becomes pretty obvious which ones become a handicap first, and which will go the distance. Those midrange mediums get packed up early.

A very good friend has a Ruger Frontier in 358 Winchester. A pretty ideal big game rifle. My wife's Ruger Compact in 308 is pretty ideal also. Tho I don't like 30 cal. It is a very easy to have with all the time rifle. The 20" barreled CZ 550 in 9.3×62 was very sweet and would make a great all around big game rifle out to 400+ yards with a more American Classic style stock and an appropriate optic. The real trick to stretching the range is accurate range estimating and being able to rest the rifle properly.

I tried the compact Brush gun theory,
Remington model 7, Ruger ultralight, Marlin 444, marlin 44mag,

yet then I found I really preferred to carry my 8lb 24" .270WBY
I found its length never really hindered or bothered me when I took in country much like this.

I never got tripped or missed game bcause my 24" barrel got snagged.
and i only missed game simply cause I blew the stalk!

of course I've been in other pine forest areas with trees so close,undergrowth so bloody dense and in steep country,
that one truly did prefer something really light,compact & handy,,,...FreedomArms 7.5" .454 casull ...
but they were rare occasions.

Some types of country look thick & difficult, but it really depended on the actual type of growth & foliage thats there
as to how much it really hinders or interferes....once you get into some of these places, the regular size-length rifles
may not really cause any real pain or hassles.

As is more often the case than not this boils down to opinion and taste. Hopefully those are based on ones personal experience where they hunt rather than what some gun scribe decides is "good and proper".

Where I hunt 100 yards is a long shot. I have a passion for old firearms, some black powder cartridge and others early smokeless cartridges. I prefer an aperture sight to a scope yet most of my rifled firearms wear open sights. I still hunt more than sit in a tree or in a stand. The absolute best "brush gun" I own is the one I choose to hunt with at that time be it drilling, double rifle, single shot or pre-war bolt rifle chambered in a cartridge from the 9.3 X 62R BP cartridge, (yes, that's 62mm, not the more common 9.3 X 72R), up to my 450/400 and its reduced, cast bullet, smokeless loads that duplicate my 40-70 Shiloh Sharps....or a myriad of other old, obsolete and obscure cartridges. They all work admirably....I suppose because I have yet to make the acquaintance of any game animal that has studied ballistics tables.

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3 X 75R:
They all work admirably....I suppose because I have yet to make the acquaintance of any game animal that has studied ballistics tables.

talking about numbers,
I had a hunting guide tell the he uses a larger calibre to overcome his perceived 'increasing intelligence' of primitive animals,
and thus the advantage they were gaining over him,
which now makes me seriously question the intelligence of some humans more than I do animals....

A brush gun should handle quickly and penetrate well enough that even a Texas heart shot will get the job done. It should have enough bore diameter that you get a big blood trail. I like for this work just about any rifle 30 caliber and over starting with the 300 Savage as a baseline for muzzle energy. In the thirties a 180 gr. Partition is hard to beat. In the 35 calibers just about any 250 gr. bullet will do just fine.

I have used the Remington M600 for years and have decided to rebarrel in .358 Winchester like my Bessie Ann. That's my Savage 99 in 358 Win. The 600 has a custom synthetic stock. Both guns shortened to my specs in LOP. Both absolutely reliable.

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
brush gun eh! -that would be a blaser - after looking at one you throw it in the brush and run away

I couldn't agree more! Probably land next to a savage bolt gun.

Dean119,
You need to buy a chronograph..I have tested my 06 against my 35 Whelen..My Whelen with a max load gets me 2669 FPS with a 250 gr. bullet, and near 2770 with a 200 gr. bullet..My 06 gets me 2660 with a 200 gr. bullet and 2700 with a 180 gr. bullet...That's about as close as one can get, and all loads are max or near max. The 35 is packing a bunch more lead when it gets there, and has less wind drift so it gets the nod..

All that said, I am a dyed in the wool 30-06 fan, its my most favored caliber ever, and the one I hunt the most with, but facts are facts, however both will do the same work in the field.

My idea of a brush gun is a rifle that points and swings like a shotgun and hits like a hammer. That said, my CZ 9.3x62 with a 20 1/2" barrel wearing a NECG peep sight is just such a beast.

Use whatever works for you.

quote:

there ARE a lot more 400+ yard hunting rifles than capable 400+yd owners...

Idaho Sharpshooter.... How true you are.