150 gr I believe, under 50 yards, both lungs, found adequate blood, ran about 100-125 yards, and darned if the 5 of us got turned around in the dark and spent 45 minutes or so getting back out.

It is thick here in the south and I never am one to advocate excessive power but darnet, I want a SHORT if any, and HUGE blood trail on both sides of anything I hit and for evening hunts, I believe I am going to make it a standard practice to ALWAYS shoot a 338 or 358 bore JUST for a little insurance.

MOST deer I have shot out of 30, ran 30-60 yards at most= a few further, many not at all.

I have used 70gr TNT's in 6BR and killed them with neck shots, 105 gr in same cartridge 400 yards-ran 25 yards, and shot them with up to 200 gr 338/06.

I am SOLD on IF they are going to run, the bigger the frontal area of the bullet going in and hopefully out, the easier and less frustrating my time will be if I have to track them in the dark.

SO, next year it is 338 and 358 bore for all evening hunts because the last thing at the end of an evening hunt I want is to search for drops of blood........

Not that far less power is needed to kill deer, but when it is almost dark and you punch a deer in the chest instead of being able to take neck and spine shots, I want to eliminate a headache from the get go.

So, tonight trailing a hunting buddy's deer convinced me that from now on, I will do my next several hunts with mid bores and likely never go back, at least on evening hunts.

Too bad that deer did not come my way and let me pop it with my 350, I really think it would have died in half the time if that.

If you hit your next deer in the guts with that 338 will it go down faster than hit in the right spot with an '06? It's not (what) you use, it's (where) you hit, and you know that. Save the 338 for a big ol bear.

BTW, a bullet in the 338 cal is more than likely built with a thicker jacket and won't expand as much as a lets say a 150 Interbond, a bullet that is designed to make a BIG wound channel since it expands to over twice the caliber. Jay

In my excperience a large heavy bullet is more likely to give complete penitration. Now, if you gut shoot the deer it going to be a problem period and I don't think you should ever just let fly and hope for the best. But my experience with the 35 Whelen and Nosler Partitions is that they will penitrate period and leave a big hole on both sides of the animal. Will this help, possibly, and it isn't going to hurt anything. Two holes, especially large ones, let air and blood out better than one small hole.

IMHO if you expect a .338 or .35 cal to drop deer faster or give better blood trails on deer sized critters than a .30-06 you will be disappointed.

-Lou

Anything from 24 to 30 caliber throwing any decent expanding bullet of proper weight to caliber at about 2500-3100 fps. should absolutely pole axe any dad-gum deer in North America, IF you you put the bullet through the boiler room. It has not been my experience that these critters are that hard to kill.

Geronimo

quote:

under 50 yards, both lungs, found adequate blood, ran about 100-125 yards

Just sounds like a deer that didn't want to give up the ghost.

quote:

It's not (what) you use, it's (where) you hit, and you know that

I agree, a 30-06 is plenty for deer. A .338 is overkill.

RMiller, perhaps you are right. None the less, yes most 338 bullets may be designed for higher speed, but I do believe a large hole in and out should let more blood out and that is what I want to see if deer want to be stubborn about 'giving up the ghost'

hey, I would love to hunt with just a 6BR or 250 savage all day, but dangit, if you NEED to track/trail an animal, the bigger the hole, I HAVE to believe the better the blood trail leading up to him. Lack of blood trail has been an issue.

Heck, my 7BR-120 gr shot (115yd shot double lung) deer last year ran 60 yards (but w/o a visible blood trail), the '06 this guy used let the deer run about 100-120yds but it laid down blood along the way.

I know they are all different, but I want to use a round to put them down as close to where I hit them as possible, and if not, the BIGGEST blood trail possible.

No, Excessive power is not needed, but a free flowing blood entrance/exit to pour down a trail is nice and easier to follow. This '06 made a better trail by far than my buddy's 243 which also passed thru both lungs. I surmise, the bigger the caliber the larger the hole in and hopefully out.

I like efficiency and not 'overkill' but when you have to go looking for them, when the need arises, it darned sure helps to have a trail leading to them, one that is EASY to follow-at night with a flashlight.

The deer I helped find tonight was center punched through both lungs. That is where I usually hit them myself to minimize meat damage.

I wonder what the 'crime scene' looks like from the 45/70 hunters?

Perhaps he used the wrong bullet if you guys using '06 never have to track one fairly hit that far.........

Do the 'accubond's and other 'bonded' bullets give better wound channel/greater frontal surface area than other bullets?

Sounds like the deer did what a lot of deer do when they are double lunged. They run for a ways.

Heck I doubled lunged one with my 416 it ran about 75 yards.

Unless one head,neck,or spine them they well run some.

when I hunting in thick stuff i use a 35 whelen & shoot for the sholder. when I'm in food plots I hunt with a 270 & shoot for the lungs. if they don't drop in eye sight it's back to camp for a dog. we take turns bringing a lab to camp. they are really excellent tracking dogs.

I gut shot a deer once, it was at 300yds, and right at dark, the 7mm Rem mag killed the buck instantly, just like it allways does

I double lung shot a deer this year with a 338 using a 200 grn Nosler BT. It ran almosr 75 yards into thick stuff. This was in the AM. I was shooting for meat. The blood trail looked like someone poored it out of a bucket.

Last year I shot two with a 30-06. The first iwth a, Speer 150 Mag tip,double lung ran 50 to 75 yards and a nice blood trail. Second, 180 Accubond though the shoulders - dropped - ruined meat in both shoulders.

The previous year, I double lung shot one with a 243 Win (100 Nosler partition) that went 75 yds and had a very clear blood trial. - no meat damage.

I have shot a boat load with a 308 Win in the shoulder with a 150 grain (whatever they had at the hardware store) that dropped dead. But it messed up a lot of meat.

In my experience, lung shot deer run that far - no matter what you use. If you hit the heart it shortens the run. If you want to drop one in it's tracks you have to hit the central nervous system. High in the shoulder is usually does it. Shoulder shots tends to ruin a lot of meat. Shoulder shots can get nasty with a light fragile bullet at high speed (I had this problem with a 270 Win with Sierra 130 BT bullets)

If I shoot for meat, it's a lung shot and normaly in the AM. If I shoot for trophy, it's a sholder shot. As of about 15 years ago, no matter what catridge I use, I select a bullet that will provide and exit wound, even on a shoulder shot.
I stay away from the boat tails and plastic tipped bullets when under 30 cal.

Maybe you and your buddies need to work a little more on your outdoor skills.

No flame intended. Just a polite suggestion.

Rojelio

My son shot stuff with a 7X57 for several years, until he decided he wanted a 7 Mag. Every whitetail he shot with the "little 7" was bang-flop. I handloaded 145-grain Speer Grand Slams for him, and the deer just dropped on the spot. I taught him to shoot lungs, and that is where he shoots deer.

I think the difference is transit time through the animal. The slower the bullet, the more energy is transferred because the bullet is inside the animal longer.

My ideal bullet woule be one that penetrates the hide on the off side and drops to the ground: massive energy transfer and an exit hole...

quote:

I stay away from the boat tails and plastic tipped bullets when under 30 cal.

No wonder you can't drop a deer with a lung shot!!!!!!!!!

If you want the deer to go down quicker, you might try the "vital triangle" shot instead of the double lung. Taking out the top of the heart or the arteries feeding into it have put my deer down either in their tracks or with runs of no longer than 30 yards so far, with most under 20 yards. And half of my deer have been shot not even with a .30-caliber round but with a .260 Rem and 125-grain Nosler Partitions at 2700 fps.

I have been the same moderate(4,800 acres,20 member) size deer club for 30 years & have killed well over 100 deer, our club usually kills 85-120 deer per year & we dress them all at the skinning shed.Over the years calabers come & go in fashion but most of these deer are killed with 270,308,30'06 or 7 remmag. These are my observations..1. after you get over 257 roberts cal doesn't really matter all that much for deer but I want a minimum of a 270 on a 250# hog..2..most lost deer are from neck shots gone bad..3..A shoulder shot usually drops the deer on the spot..4..a lung/heart shot usually means a 30-100 yd trailing job(in the swamp this is a big deal, in the middle of a food plot it's no big deal)..5.. I have never heard of a gut shot deer dropping on the spot, usually after a 30 minute wait you are looking at a 200-2 mile trailing job with the dog...6.. an acidental shot to the spine obviously drops them on the spot.

The 1st buck I ever shot weas a large forked horn mulie. I hit him just as he turned and the 180 grain partition from a 300 win broke a bunch of ribs. The buck walked a few feet and most of his guts fell out of the hole, and he still went about 50 yards after that.
If you are in thick stuff and you want a good blod trail get a marlin guide gun, 45/70 or 450 marlin. Winchester has a new 94 take down in 450 marlin that has a ghost ring site and a scout scope set up...tj3006

quote:

I have never heard of a gut shot deer dropping on the spot

You have now! My brother also gut shot a buck, it dropped in it's tracks, the caliber was a .243, it had a small entry hole, and his entire guts were blown out the other side.

I seen gut shot deer drop on the spot. Dosen't happen on a regular basic. I seen them run for a very long time too.

quote:

I seen them run for a very long time too.

That's what I normally see, have had to help many guys track a gut shot deer, it always happens when they are using a heavy slow moving bullet.

For double lung shots, the .338-06 will offer little improvement over the 06 on deer. Now put the bullet through a leg, heart & lung, down deer. That's when your .338-06 will shine.
Doubless, it just doesn't work that way, "energy dump" is a nice theory but blood loss & organ damage are what kill. Put a 175gr 7mm through both lungs & your deer will go along way, small hole in & small exit, slow blood loss, minimal lung damage.

quote:

175gr 7mm through both lungs & your deer will go along way, small hole in & small exit

Not if driven to magnum velocity!

I would humbly suggest the problem here is not with the caliber, but the shot placement. If you do not want your deer to run any distance wait for a side shot and place your bullet on the point of the shoulder and use a bullet that will penetrate fully thus breaking the offside shoulder also. Deer find it very difficult to run any distance with 2 broken front shoulders. generally you also get the heart or spine with this placement and they fall dead on the spot or maybe "snowplow" for 10 feet and die.

LOTS of great feedback, hey, I am no 'injun' but we were fine tracking the deer, but it is no fun searching for small drops of blood where I hunt.

A blunt/round nose I believe would punch a nicer entrance hole for blood to more easily flow.

As to the 'energy transfer' I have felt the same myself, that slower projectiles transfer energy longer, and asked a physics professor once, but he not being a hunter avoided trying to answer.

I double lung where possible because my 1st deer was 30 yards, and 145 speer BTSP and DESTROYED The entire shoulder.

It did not go far. Of course my 338/06 deer went no further and MUCH less meat damage.

I think for evening hunts, as someone suggested, if it is a NICE buck, go for the shoulder to add more DRT chance,

BTW, my buddy's black lab 'accidently' found 2 of his deer, so perhaps we need to start bringing that dog out when a deer is hit.

What made the hunt really aggravating was the guy went to get the 4 wheeler after we found the deer and when we headed back we missed our road and got turned around, so we had to find our way out, (did not take long but was another aggravation), I never hunted in that area and did not know my bearings not having used my compass before heading into the thicket after the deer as I never expected him to go that far.

Guess in the past, my double lunged deer might have had more internal damage and bled out faster. I did see the exit wound under the hide and it was not spectacular, much less than say a 270 or 7/08 with ballistic tip OR a 243 with 85 BTHP.

None the less, I want to maximize my having a blood trail on evening hunts so I intend to use a 338 or 358 bores. I read the Speer flat tip 180 and 220's work well on deer in 35 so perhaps I will try them next year and there are always round nose bullets which killed tons of game before 'modern' bullets were invented.

I gather I cannot expect a deer to necessarily drop close with double lung, but I can choose how big a hole goes in and out the hide where the blood can pump.

Do like they do in the hunting videos!

Aim for the top of the shoulder, about 6-8 inches down from the top! This will take out the spine!
If you hit there with virtually anything, 22 cal center fire and up, your deer will be right where he was when you pulled the trigger!

I have seen quite a few deer hit there with 22 Hornet and 223 Rem and most times, they fold up their legs, then fall!

quote:

Originally posted by tom ga hunter:
when I hunting in thick stuff i use a 35 whelen & shoot for the sholder. when I'm in food plots I hunt with a 270 & shoot for the lungs. if they don't drop in eye sight it's back to camp for a dog. we take turns bringing a lab to camp. they are really excellent tracking dogs.

This is a silly post. How about if your watching it when it runs out of eyesight how about try to track it a little past that and if you dont find it soon then maybe go back and get the dogs.

I try to be nice most of the time. But this post is ignorant.
Whoopthy Do the deer ran a whole 100-125 yards and was double lung shot. That is very common when shot like that.
Im not the greatest tracker in the world and where I hunt is thick really thick and AI can follow one for a 100 yards.

everyone has their own ideas and arguements, but shot placement is the biggest factor.
but out side of a central nervous system shot(brain/spine), there is still no guarantee with any calibre.
the furthest a deer ever ran on me was a little roe doe, broadside lung shot at about 60 yards, with a .308 soft point. i could"nt have asked for a better shot, she never saw me at all, and she still ran downhill in heavy cover for over 100 yds.
if you want to have predictable results every time, and be home in time for dinner, go to a range and shoot paper!
i hate shooting deer in the evening!
good shooting.

I figured out a long time ago that it was asking for trouble to shoot when when it's just getting dark in thick brushy woods. It's not like I'm in danger of starvation, so I'll pack it in earlier.

It never fails that deer here are often only coming out and being shot very late with poor light in the evenings.

yes the '06 worked, yes it left blood and we found the deer, but I would rather them go down asap.

Last year I had a deer go down within 60 yards in the evening out in a field. 2 of us looked for 1.5-2 hours and I had to come back the next day and see where the buzzards had found the darned thing. Double lung again.

None-the-less I got some of the backstrap and front shoulders but the buzzards ruined the hind quarters.

The deer was less than 15 feet from our 4 wheeler and truck tracks. Grass was up to 1-2 feed high, and there was water 8-12 inches in the field.

The deer was in a ditch and we never saw it.

If I had used a larger diameter bullet, there should have been a blood trail.

I had none and the above is the result.

I guess I could get an infrared scope and shoot them in the head/neck and forget about what I use, but I don't even know if that is legal, and certainly not always practical/possible.

Brass thief, I appreciate your posts, I am not expecting any 'guarantees' just trying to give myself the best odds of No to little tracking vs losing an animal or wasting time in the evening looking for one instead of doing something else I prefer to do.

Obviously some people have been fortunate not to have problems finding deer.

I can and have followed blood trails but if you don't have to, why would you want to if your choice in the ctg you shoot can avoid it?

Thanks for all the posts

If a wanted to drop a deer on the spot with a double lung shot, I'd pick either a .270 with 130 gr. Hornady spire point , or a an '06 with 150 gr. Sierra. Would probnbly be able to put my entire hand in the exit wound with each.
Sure wouldn't want to shoot it in the "ham" with either one, though.

Some bucks just don't want to die.

About a month back a buddy of mine (we are on the same lease) knocked the same buck down 3 times with a 30-06 180 grain remimgton core-lok crap - this was about 5:00 PM.
After the 3rd knock down he said the buck stayed down so he climbed down from the stand and just came back to camp, wanting to give the buck time to bleed out.
4 hours and a 12 pack of beer later we go back to find his buck before the coyotes do. We're going through the woods with flash lights and a S&W .40 when we here some leaves crunching. We kill the lights and listen to where the crunching is coming from.
We both turn to the sounds, hit the lights and there is this ghostly looking buck about 30 feet out there looking at us as he disappears into the dark thick cover. This son of a bitch looked dead already and he's walking around.
We look at each other like what the f#*^ and get the hell out of there - so not to pressure the dead buck.
Back to camp for more beer, something to eat and a story for the rest of the fellows.
The next morning we sleep in - my buck has already been through the butcher shop & his ???
At 9:30 AM we go back to the last place we saw him. This time he has my pistol in front of him like some cop making an arrest. When up ahead we can see the buck laid out and looking plenty dead. I say all right Chuck! he's dead. No sooner had I said that when this buck turns his head, looks at us and jumps to his feet. Chuck knocks him down for the 4th time with 2 shots close to the vitals from the .40 S&W. After a short celebration the buck starts moving again and wanting to get up but he can't. I start feeling sick about the whole damn deal and think to my self "this is why I use enough gun sighted in with the best bullets I can get" Chuck had to shoot him 1 more time point blank through the heart and he seemed to live for another 3 or 4 minutes.
He had hit this buck 3 times right in the middle of the neck with the 30-06 the day before.
This was a damn tuff buck but I still blame him for the demise of this animal:
He never shoots to hoan his skills or to check the rifles accuarcy and he is to cheap to buy a good bullet.

The only load that I've ever used that would consistently drop them on the spot with a lung shot was 140 grain ballistic tips at 3200+ out of a 7mm rem mag. Out of about 40 deer I shot with that load, only one didn't drop on the spot. However, you get a lot of meat damage, and rarely an exit wound. The insides just turn to mush. With a tougher bullet, they're going to run if you lung shoot them. I lung shot a doe with a .338 win mag last year and she went about a hundred yards.

A 30-06 is PLENTY for deer, heck it's overkill. You're not going to see any better results from going to a bigger rifle. I've shot them with everything up to a .375 H&H and they all work the same, if you shoot them in the right place they drop, if you don't then they run. A 125 yard run is normal for a double lung shot deer, if you don't want to trail them that far then bust the shoulder, they'll go down a lot quicker, though not necessarilary on the spot. Leave the neck and head shots to the annie oakley wannabees who watch too many hunting videos.

A neck shot is useless if you don't hit the spine.

Geronimo

Well, the last shot demonstrates to me the problems associated with neck shots when you fail to hit the spine more than it illustrates what a crummy bullet the core-lokt is. I seriously doubt he'd have different results with a Nosler Partition.
Here's the thing...I don't care what bullet you use, I don't care what caliber you use. I don't care how good your shot placement is. If you hunt long enough and shoot enough animals you WILL have an animal run a long way. There are simply too many variables involved with shooting a living animal that will guarantee a bang-flop or a bang-run 30 yards--flop...everytime. Certainly it will happen in a large percentage of animals. But even when you do everythig right, put the shot where it belongs, the bullet performs perfectly (whatever that means) from time to time you will have a deer that runs.
It might have been exhaling when it should have been inhaling, or his hear was setting in his chest 2 inches lower than a normal animal, or he had alot of adrenalin, or that silly hole you put in his lung clogged up... But if you hunt enough it will happen.
The natural, and wrong reaction is to look to using a bigger gun.

6.5:

My bet is that the 150 grain bullet used didn't get a chance to open up all the way.. probably going too fast or was too hard of a bullet.. say like a Sierra....

I think the 06 with a 150 grain bullet would be just fine for anything in Georgia..... with keeping the MV at under 2700 fps.... that seems to be where bullet construction has a point of being enough or too much!

A ballistic tip at 2500 fps or so.... even at 2250 fps, with a 3.5 inch high zero at 100 yds, it will be dead on at 200....

heck, I shot a 650 lb elk in Montana, with a 165 grain ballistic tip at 2250 fps... it was a large cow elk.. it ran 60 yds or so and was down gasping when we got to it.. it was shot at 175 yds....

the bullet penetrated and destroyed half of the right lung, all the left lung, cut the esophagus in half and destroyed the upper 1/2 of the liver.... I am surprised the Elk made it as far as it did with the internal damage...

a ballistic tip at 2250 fps also impressed me on how much damage it managed to do.... on that big of an animal.. i am sure it would put a world of hurt on the biggest deer to walk around good old Georgia!

cheers
seafire

Can't seem to get any shooting done !
The weather here in Portland Oregon ust sucks latly !
I have been top my range twice latley, and its about 25 miles across the colimbia rifler in washington, and the first time, I fired 1 group and buy the time i got to the target it was so wet it fell apart when i pulled it off the tacks,(good group though, so I duplicated the load, so I can still get the results of the poll I put up a while back. I went yesterday and it was so foogy they would,nt let us shoot ! They are afraid a deer will walk onto the range and get shot cause we can't see it.
I will try again in the next week or two...tj3006

Why not use a Barens TSX in the caliber you want to hunt with and be done with it! I have been using the TSX's and will not be using anything but. Yea, I tried the Hornady Interbond and their no TSX!

quote:

Originally posted by T/C Nut:
Why not use a Barens TSX in the caliber you want to hunt with and be done with it! I have been using the TSX's and will not be using anything but. Yea, I tried the Hornady Interbond and their no TSX!

Cuz they're better than the TSX. Overpriced, no expanding bullets.

Lets compare wound channels.