quote:

Originally posted by SNAP:

quote:

Originally posted by memtb:
Mike, In true long range shooting the .338 WM (with good high bc bullets) will walk away from the .375 H&H...in retained velocity, energy and wind drift. I have and love my .375’s (an H&H and an AI), but my wife’s .338 (225 TTSX’s started at 2950 fps) will outperform my AI (250 TTSX’s started at 3130 fps)at ranges exceeding 750 yards. If only shots inside the 500 yard range are considered, then the .375 H&H has the edge. Out to around 700...my AI has the edge. As painfull as it is to say, the .338 WM is a little better “all around” caliber! memtb

What load and bbl. length gives a 225TTSX 2950 from a .338WM case? My best to date is 2780 from the 23" Shilen on my early Dakota 76 factory chambered .338WM.

Would appreciate the recipe?

I've found Rel-17 superb with the 225gnTTSX in 338WM. 2820-2850fps in three rifles: two 24.4" Tikka's and one 24" Ruger. All sub-MOA. However, one of the Tikka's had a slightly large chamber and needed 70.8 grains Rel-17. Other two were better at 69-69.5 grains.

As far as I am concerned, the 338 is probably the most useless caliber available today.

It does not offer anything the 300 does, and if I wanted something bigger the 375 is much better.

I looked this years ago when I was developing my own wildcats.

I decide that a 30/404 and a 375/404 would meet every hunting situation I might get into.

And I have not regretted it.

Forget energy.

Energy does not kill animals all by itself.

Destroying vitals organs does.

Reminds me of that old gun writer, Bob Milek.

He wrote that the 243 Winchester is marginal for some deer because it does not have enough energy??!!

But went on an another occasion to say a 357 Magnum is plenty good enough

quote:

As far as I am concerned, the 338 is probably the most useless caliber available today.

It does not offer anything the 300 does, and if I wanted something bigger the 375 is much better.

Again, my reasoning, in reverse.
Instead of having a 300 over one shoulder and a 375 over the other shoulder, I can walk the forest with an accurate 338 over one shoulder. It doesn't get much better than that.

Many consider it ideal for all North America. However, even in Africa it can hold its head high. The 225TTSX can cover all distances 0-400 with a flat trajectory at 2825-2850fps. The 225TTSX is an awesome bullet on all plains game. And the 338 does a nice job on buffalo should the need arise.

The rifle that I see no need for in Africa is the 300. Distances are too short, mostly under 300 yards, so that a longer-range sniper round just isn't necessary. (I've shot game with both the 300WM and 300Weatherby. They are excellent, but I'd rather have 225gn-300gn bullets in a 338 in Africa.)

Truth be told, if I had a hot-loaded 375 (like Saeed's 300gn at 2800fps) then I would agree that the 338 is superfluous. And because of the law in some countries, my wife has a 375Ruger with 250 TTSX bullets loaded up to the magic 2825fps, although her bread-and-butter load will probably be the 200gn GSC at 3100fps. It reminds her of her 270 in the US. No 300 necessary.

Agree with Admin, 375/404 thru both lungs should drop elk. Barnes has the new 250 TTSX

The Barnes, .375 250 TTSX has only two cannelures

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:
The Barnes, .375 250 TTSX has only two cannelures

Actually, those new, two-cannelure bullets are the LRX .338 250-grain and the .375 270 grain. For some reason, the 270 grain LRX gives little BC advantage over the 250 grain .375" TTSX, so in .375" we have gone with the 250 grain.

In .338", the 250gn LRX boasts a .602 BC, so it might be a useful upgrade to the 225gn TTSX, IF IT SHOOTS WELL in the particular rifle. My first preliminary test had the 225gn TTSX shooting better groups so I will try again next year in the US. Meanwhile, I'm happy with the 225gnTTSX.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:
The Barnes, .375 250 TTSX has only two cannelures

Actually, those new, two-cannelure bullets are the LRX .338 250-grain and the .375 270 grain. For some reason, the 270 grain LRX gives little BC advantage over the 250 grain .375" TTSX, so in .375" we have gone with the 250 grain.

In .338", the 250gn LRX boasts a .602 BC, so it might be a useful upgrade to the 225gn TTSX, IF IT SHOOTS WELL in the particular rifle. My first preliminary test had the 225gn TTSX shooting better groups so I will try again next year in the US. Meanwhile, I'm happy with the 225gnTTSX.

416Tanzan, For years,I begged Barnes to produce a high BC bullet for the .375 (around 290 to 300 grain TTSX), but they bring out the 270 LRX...which as you stated, is “only” marginally better than the 250 TTSX. I can’t justify changing from the 250!

Running the 225 TTSX in my wife’s rifle...will stay with it as well! memtb

quote:

(although the friend who shot moose five to seven times each with a 30-06 needs to work on marksmanship. Wink )

+1

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Because not everyone shoots small Texas deer from a blind?

Ray, you have had this same rant for the last 15 years at least, and that only covers my history of seeing you rant. The 30-06 is great. So are the 300 Mags, and 338s, 375s, 416s, and 458s. That is not even in dispute. It’s time to let it go.....

BTW my experience is not limited to Texas whitetail. I have experience with moose as well. 30-06 150 grain bullets do the trick.
I have had this belief over 15 years, and I still do. A 30-06 will shoot through most North American animals. Why use half again as much powder with corresponding increased recoil?

I live by this “loosely” quoted philosophy, “ You don’t choose the rifle (cartridge) for when everything goes right....you choose for when everything goes wrong”! memtb

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Biebs,

You don't need another rifle. Tell me an animal that a 7mm mag is not well suited for?

The only ones I can really think of are Brown Bear or DG in Africa and for those the 375 HH mag is better than a 338 WM.

Also, a 358 Win with 225 @ 2425 fps packs a lot of punch out to 300 yards

Precisely!!!!!

I use the properly handloaded .30-06 as a standard for judging others.....and it's now my thinking that if one truly needs more than he can get from the old .30-06.....then he needs to move way up to the old .375 H&H....

It seems to me that the inclusion of the 375 magnum to this matter kind of takes us away from the original question.

If absolute power were the only consideration, why would we stop at the 375 H&H magnum? The problem is that whatever calibre is used, someone has to carry the rifle and be behind the butt.

Years ago someone calculated that the average shooter could only handle recoil comfortably up to that of the .30/06. And yet, to hunt some game safely or humanely, that may not be enough. Extra mass in the rifle can mitigate some of the recoil but then you've got to carry it.

So, if we believe that to safely and humanely hunt big bears, elk and antelope, something bigger than a .300 magnum may be needed. The .338 does have less power than the .375s but it can be had in a more-affordable, shorter action and need not weigh as much to shoot comfortably.

If you want to hunt buffalo and elephant, you'll need something bigger - but with luck you can find someone else to carry it for you.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:

quote:

Because not everyone shoots small Texas deer from a blind?

Ray, you have had this same rant for the last 15 years at least, and that only covers my history of seeing you rant. The 30-06 is great. So are the 300 Mags, and 338s, 375s, 416s, and 458s. That is not even in dispute. It’s time to let it go.....

BTW my experience is not limited to Texas whitetail. I have experience with moose as well. 30-06 150 grain bullets do the trick.
I have had this belief over 15 years, and I still do. A 30-06 will shoot through most North American animals. Why use half again as much powder with corresponding increased recoil?

If I were using my .30-06 for moose in Alaska, I would use a 180-grain bullet. But I use the .338WM with 225-grain 3-Shock Tipped as an all around bullet, and sometimes go to 250-grains Partition.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:

quote:

Because not everyone shoots small Texas deer from a blind?

Ray, you have had this same rant for the last 15 years at least, and that only covers my history of seeing you rant. The 30-06 is great. So are the 300 Mags, and 338s, 375s, 416s, and 458s. That is not even in dispute. It’s time to let it go.....

BTW my experience is not limited to Texas whitetail. I have experience with moose as well. 30-06 150 grain bullets do the trick.
I have had this belief over 15 years, and I still do. A 30-06 will shoot through most North American animals. Why use half again as much powder with corresponding increased recoil?

What difference does it make how much recoil a cartridge generates? I have shot PLENTY of 1/2” groups with loads generating 50 ft lbs of recoil and up. I’ll bet many here have done the same thing. Let it go......

quote:

As far as I am concerned, the 338 is probably the most useless caliber available today.

It does not offer anything the 300 does, and if I wanted something bigger the 375 is much better.

Yeah well after you pack that .375 over a couple mountains looking for large game will you then figure out what a .338 is good for.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:

quote:

As far as I am concerned, the 338 is probably the most useless caliber available today.

It does not offer anything the 300 does, and if I wanted something bigger the 375 is much better.

Yeah well after you pack that .375 over a couple mountains looking for large game will you then figure out what a .338 is good for.

You can easily go < 9 lbs. on an H&H, and it still be very comfortable to shoot without a brake. That said... a 338 is a great caliber! memtb

A few years ago I took a 375 H&H and a 338 WM to Africa. I took 10 animals, 5 each. Large plains game, Zebra, kudu, etc. There was absolutely no noticeable difference in the killing power of these cartridges. 300 mags have noticeably less killing power than these two. IMHO the 338 WM is a fabulous big game cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:

quote:

As far as I am concerned, the 338 is probably the most useless caliber available today.

It does not offer anything the 300 does, and if I wanted something bigger the 375 is much better.

Yeah well after you pack that .375 over a couple mountains looking for large game will you then figure out what a .338 is good for.

Good points, and that's why the .375 is not as popular as the .30-06, .300WM, and .338WM in the interior of Alaska. Out of the box any of these three are lighter than a .375H&H, and can shoot a lot flatter too.

That said, there is nothing wrong with a .375H&H. It's a wonderful cartridge. I just have no idea why some people think that, for example, "my .30-06 will do all that the .300 will do, and that my .300 will do all that the .338 will do." These cartridges aren't the same.

Ray Alaska--Yes I'm aware most using the 30-06 go heavier than 150 grain bullet, but I like the 150's and they worked for me.

INTJ--I'm real proud of you shooting those small groups with 50 lbs of recoil. To repeat your question, what difference does it make how much recoil is generated? What did you gain? What shot did you make that absolutely could not have been made with a 30-06? Many folks might shoot small groups with 50 lb recoiling rifles, but I'd bet a lot more would start jerking their shots.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Ray Alaska--Yes I'm aware most using the 30-06 go heavier than 150 grain bullet, but I like the 150's and they worked for me.

I understand, and you are correct. I was referring about moose in Alaska. Over here the .30-06 is quite popular, but lots of hunters use 180-grainers for both the .30-06 and .300WM, because of the greater SD over the 150-grain bullets.

By the way, the new breed of monolithic bullets such as the Barnes 3-Shock Tipped in a lighter weight is just fine.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
INTJ--I'm real proud of you shooting those small groups with 50 lbs of recoil. To repeat your question, what difference does it make how much recoil is generated? What did you gain? What shot did you make that absolutely could not have been made with a 30-06? Many folks might shoot small groups with 50 lb recoiling rifles, but I'd bet a lot more would start jerking their shots.

All depends on the person. For example, the wife of one of my former supervisors reloaded and tested ammo for his .338's. She didn't have any trouble shooting his rifles. I have seen a little lady (petite, around 5' tall) shooting a .375H&H at a local range a few years ago. I asked her if the recoil didn't bother he's, and she said, "my dad introduced me to the .375 when I was younger, and I got used to it."

I started hunting late in life when retiring from the military, and the first hunting rifle I ever shot was a .338WM. The recoil doesn't bother me at all when hunting or shooting it a few times, but when developing loads for it I use a lead sled when shooting my .338s for extended ranges of time. Of two of my .338's, one has a muzzle brake, and this one I can shoot for extended periods. The other does not, so I shoot it a few times, take a break for a couple of days, and then shoot it again.

In reality, all you are doing by going from a .30-06 to a .300WM (using the same bullet weight) is stretching the distance of the shot, along its energy. The same if shooting a .300WM versus a .300RUM, or just a .338WM versus a .340 Weatherby (or RUM).

Another example: A lot of people believe that the Marlin .45-70 with heavy loads kicks like a mule, but to me its recoil is nothing compared to a 12-gage shotgun and a 3" Magnum slug. I have no idea why I find the shotgun to kick harder. Maybe it's all in my mind, but I can shoot the .45-70 all day long.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
A few years ago I took a 375 H&H and a 338 WM to Africa. I took 10 animals, 5 each. Large plains game, Zebra, kudu, etc. There was absolutely no noticeable difference in the killing power of these cartridges. 300 mags have noticeably less killing power than these two. IMHO the 338 WM is a fabulous big game cartridge.

Our beloved Admin took the thread in 375 direction and I am glad. I believe a 375 H&H would thump elk. 375 Ruger probably a better choice except significantly more recoil velocity with the 375 Ruger and a brake warranted.

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
A few years ago I took a 375 H&H and a 338 WM to Africa. I took 10 animals, 5 each. Large plains game, Zebra, kudu, etc. There was absolutely no noticeable difference in the killing power of these cartridges. 300 mags have noticeably less killing power than these two. IMHO the 338 WM is a fabulous big game cartridge.

Our beloved Admin took the thread in 375 direction and I am glad. I believe a 375 H&H would thump elk. 375 Ruger probably a better choice except significantly more recoil velocity with the 375 Ruger and a brake warranted.

I certainly wouldn't classify the Ruger as having "significantly" more recoil than the H&H. It has maybe a little more. Shoot it first than decide.

Ray, I was speaking of moose in Alaska and I used 150 grain bullets which I know many prefer heavier. Fact is, it killed those moose and what a heavier bullet would have done on those moose is pure speculation that can never be proven.
I understand at least on paper a .300 mag will extend the range over a 30-06, my question is, what range would you shoot a moose with a .300 mag but not a 30-06?

What branch of service did you retire from Ray?

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
INTJ--I'm real proud of you shooting those small groups with 50 lbs of recoil. To repeat your question, what difference does it make how much recoil is generated? What did you gain? What shot did you make that absolutely could not have been made with a 30-06? Many folks might shoot small groups with 50 lb recoiling rifles, but I'd bet a lot more would start jerking their shots.

Well any reasonable person would practice before going on a hunt so more recoil doesn't really equate to "jerking their shots".

Beside those who think that a .30-06, of which I'm a big fan, has the same effect on game as a .300 magnum (.300 Weatherby in my case) has either not hunted with one or is afraid of it. There is a very definite difference in killing power especially with heavy bullets on large game.

If you want to pop stuff with light bullets in your -06 all well and good but don't try to make it into something it's not.

Anyone who seriously thinks one caliber actually kills better than another is daydreaming!

Or has not hunted much!

Having shot and killed hundreds of animals, the dik dik to elephants, and have seen so many reactions to the shot, one cannot pass judgement that one kills better than another.

How can you kill an animal more than dead??

I have seen impala shot right through the whole length of its body stand around for a while before dying.

I have impala drop dead from a shot that barely broke the skin!

quote:

Anyone who seriously thinks one caliber actually kills better than another is daydreaming!

Or has not hunted much!

This is too general. Actually, one can observe that one caliber can be better than another.

Think big. Start with broad strokes then work down to where differences are negligible.
The 270 is much better than a 222 on hartebeest and impala or cob/puku.
The 338 is much better than the 243 on elk.
The 458 is much better than a 30-06 on buffalo, etc. etc.

However, when things get close, like the 300WM and 338WM, then you are correct, there is considerable overlap, with sliding scales of applicability on the margins. Ultimately, caliber recommendations should deal with situations where things are going wrong, that is where the margins come into play. And there may not be 'one' answer, because recoil tolerance affects choice as well as rifle carriability.

The 375 was legislated as the cut-off for some dangerous game. Not everyone agrees with the cut-off line, but some line had to be drawn because as calibers go smaller, tragic incidents increase. Some countries included the venerable 9.3x62 as buffalo-legal (36 caliber) and had the 338WM been around from the first half of the 20th century I am confident that it would have rated at least inclusion with the 9.3x62, being marginally better in some respects. Should the 30 calibers have been included? They certainly kill buffalo, but this is a sliding curve of percentages. They shoot 30-caliber bullets. Lines need to be drawn to help helps make better choices.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
INTJ--I'm real proud of you shooting those small groups with 50 lbs of recoil. To repeat your question, what difference does it make how much recoil is generated? What did you gain? What shot did you make that absolutely could not have been made with a 30-06? Many folks might shoot small groups with 50 lb recoiling rifles, but I'd bet a lot more would start jerking their shots.

Yes, recoil is an issue. A serious one. But I'm not so sure that a choice on 300's and 338's should be decided on a recoil issue. They are moderate and fairly similar. (My scale: light [under 20ft# recoil], moderate [20-45 ft# recoil], heavy [45-75 ft# recoil], and unpleasant [anything that slaps a cheekbone and/or 75ft# and up].)

Yet one can learn to handle recoil. Here is this month's test group at 100-yards before ferrying over a 500 AccRel that generates 60-70 ft# recoil:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


I decide that a 30/404 and a 375/404 would meet every hunting situation I might get into.

And I have not regretted it.

Forget energy.

Energy does not kill animals all by itself.

Destroying vitals organs does.

Saeed, how do you feel about the 9.3 x 62 for frontal area killing power?

Your 375/404 must recoil heavy.

quote:

If you want to pop stuff with light bullets in your -06 all well and good but don't try to make it into something it's not.

Ok Cougarz I'll bring those moose, caribou, antelope and deer back to life so that it wasn't made into something that it is not.

quote:

Anyone who seriously thinks one caliber actually kills better than another is daydreaming!

Or has not hunted much!

Having shot and killed hundreds of animals, the dik dik to elephants, and have seen so many reactions to the shot, one cannot pass judgement that one kills better than another.

How can you kill an animal more than dead??

I have seen impala shot right through the whole length of its body stand around for a while before dying.

I have impala drop dead from a shot that barely broke the skin!

Saeed--That reinforces one of my thoughts that nobody can argue with. You don't know until you have pulled the trigger. What a different gun would have done is pure speculation. I think your comments are right on.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
INTJ--I'm real proud of you shooting those small groups with 50 lbs of recoil. To repeat your question, what difference does it make how much recoil is generated? What did you gain? What shot did you make that absolutely could not have been made with a 30-06? Many folks might shoot small groups with 50 lb recoiling rifles, but I'd bet a lot more would start jerking their shots.

It’s not just me. It’s a common occurrence to shoot good groups with heavy recoil. Most people who would jerk their shots as ones who need to learn how to shoot. So rather than criticize someone for not using a 30-06, why not criticize people who have never learned how to shoot properly, which means handling recoil?

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
A few years ago I took a 375 H&H and a 338 WM to Africa. I took 10 animals, 5 each. Large plains game, Zebra, kudu, etc. There was absolutely no noticeable difference in the killing power of these cartridges. 300 mags have noticeably less killing power than these two. IMHO the 338 WM is a fabulous big game cartridge.

Our beloved Admin took the thread in 375 direction and I am glad. I believe a 375 H&H would thump elk. 375 Ruger probably a better choice except significantly more recoil velocity with the 375 Ruger and a brake warranted.

None of my 375 Rugers have brakes. They are as light as any 338 WM. I would not want them any heavier or lighter. The stupid looking brakes is why I do not own more.

I think the 338 and 375s are kissing cousins with a lot of overlap. The 300 WM I have no use for, but if sherp hunting only in high mountains I see it as the biggest cartridge that makes sense.

INTJ--You obviously didn't answer any of my questions. I'll answer yours. How many folks have the false belief that you can hit em anywhere with a .300 mag for example and they are going to drop? Not true, they don't increase the size of the kill zone. My opinion is if you need more than a 30-06, you need a larger bore, not a faster .30 cal. It may be common to shoot small groups with heavy recoilers, but it's a lot more common to not. I've seen a lot more that can't than those that can. Two questions remain for you. Tell me about the shots you have made with your 50 lb recoiling rifle that could not have been made with a 30-06. What range have you taken shots with a .300 mag that could not have been made with an 06? If the .300's are extending the range, by how much?

375 H&H AI would be nice. Can you buy real AI brass? Ruger probably more common in Alaska where grizzlies can get nasty.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
A few years ago I took a 375 H&H and a 338 WM to Africa. I took 10 animals, 5 each. Large plains game, Zebra, kudu, etc. There was absolutely no noticeable difference in the killing power of these cartridges. 300 mags have noticeably less killing power than these two. IMHO the 338 WM is a fabulous big game cartridge.

Our beloved Admin took the thread in 375 direction and I am glad. I believe a 375 H&H would thump elk. 375 Ruger probably a better choice except significantly more recoil velocity with the 375 Ruger and a brake warranted.

None of my 375 Rugers have brakes. They are as light as any 338 WM. I would not want them any heavier or lighter. The stupid looking brakes is why I do not own more.

I think the 338 and 375s are kissing cousins with a lot of overlap. The 300 WM I have no use for, but if sherp hunting only in high mountains I see it as the biggest cartridge that makes sense.

Ultra or Weatherby 300s are best for sheep or goats.

I have no use for the 300 Winchester Magnum. Why would I want to shoot a 300 Winchester Magnum when hollowed 300 Weatherby case gets 200 fps more with little more recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:
I have no use for the 300 Winchester Magnum. Why would I want to shoot a 300 Winchester Magnum when hollowed 300 Weatherby case gets 200 fps more with little more recoil.

What is a “hollowed” .300 Weatherby?

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:
375 H&H AI would be nice. Can you buy real AI brass? Ruger probably more common in Alaska where grizzlies can get nasty.

Yes just ream out to a .375 Weatherby in a good 26” pipe. All the Improvement you’ll ever need and you can buy head stamped brass.