quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
I am fully aware of the twist rate aspect of this and I do object to nonsense and his remark on the .270 was just that.
......

You're too easy. I've had maybe three 270s that I can remember, and they all shot the 130gr bullet great, and a little less great with the 150gr, but still OK.

I have nothing against the 270, it's just that some attribute more to it than is really there. Right now I don't have a 270 because I want to avoid redundancy of course. Instead, I have two 280s, a 7x64, a 7x57, and a 7mag.

I have tried the 175 gr 7mm in several rifles with a 9" twist. While they generally shoot ok, it seems to me a little like shooting 150gr in 270. In both cases the accuracy opens up a little, especially out at the 200 yds. I think they are not stabilized well. In all the 7mm rifles I've tested with a 9" twist, they all shot more accurately with 160gr or lighter bullets, just as all the 270s I've tested shot the 130gr bullet more accurately than the 150gr. Of course it's not an extensive test, maybe three 270s and four 7mms. Just enough to give me an impression, but certainly not enough to give a conclusion as fact.

When I can get around to it, I'm gonna try some 175gr bullets in my 7x64, which has the CIP specs, long throat and the twist is a little faster than 9". I plan on trying them at 200 yds + as well.

Should be interesting.

KB

Differences between 7x64 and .280 Remington:

280 shoots bullets but 7x64 chutes boolits

280 is perfect for Caribou and the 7x64 is perfect for Reindeer

A 280 is loaded with a 160 grain boat-tail but the 7x64 is loaded with a 10.37 gram Balle "D"

But the biggest difference of all is that the velocity of the 280 is less than a third the velocity of the 7x64. That's because the 280 uses feet/second and the 7x64 uses meters/second and everyone knows that there are more than three feet in a meter.

i guess i don't have a dog in the long range fights .. i don't willingly shoot at unwounded game that far .. and certainly not further .. not a judgement call, just my preference

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
i don't have a dog in the long range fights .. i don't willingly shoot at unwounded game that far .. and certainly not further ..

jeffesso, I generally don't shoot at long range either. I presume you are talking about my comment of 200 yds. I dunno for sure, but 200 yds isn't quite what I consider long range. 300 yds is getting there.

Anyway, shooting game at 200 yds wasn't my point. On one of the occasions when I was testing a 280 with a 9" twist and 175gr bullets, I could get it down to about 1.5" groups at 100 yds, as an example, and felt pretty good about that. Then I moved the targets out to 200 yds. I was expecting the groups to open up proportionately, but that ain't what happened. They went to like 8" groups. I spent a lot of time trying to figure that one out and never did for sure. Later, I went to 160 gr bullets in that rifle and the 100 yd accuracy improved noticably, but the 200 yd accuracy is where the real noticable difference was. The group size at 200 yds was easily half, or better, of the 175 gr bullets. So, rather than shooting game, my 200 yd comment was more in reference to testing accuracy, or perhaps my shooting skill or technique.

I finally figured it was a twist rate thing, and the 160gr were just better stabilized. At least I can't attribute the improvment to skill, so I must have been something to do with the bullet.

KB

KB,
could be .. i've seen funny things with higher SD bullets and "not bigbores" ... i hunt mostly east, central, and hill country texas .. some south texas now and again ... 300 yards is a REAL long shot . i have hit a squirrel at 200 yards .. exactly, in fact .. friends range, tree rat ran out, stood on the fence post... he asked if i could hit him, my son wanted to know, and i was shooting at the target he stopped next to .. bang, head shot ... in season, too! (358 winchester 225gr sierra GK)

that's far for me ... not far for some guys ... i just don't have the trigger time, in the field, to do it right

i've shoot out to 400 yards at formal ranges, and floored at how badly i shot at 800-1000 at lasered only distance ranges ... BAD

quote:

I do not care if someone prefers a 175 gr. bullet, but, I do object to nonsense and his remark on the .270 was just that.

Nonsense it may be.

But in Germany (and in certain countries elsewhere) no current factory USA loaded widely available 270 Winchester is legal for wild boar. The bullet even at 150 grains is too light to be lawful.

I had a 7x64 for a number of years and took quite a few heads of big game with it.

I really liked the rifle but at the range it was'nt much of a shooter off the bench. It sure killed everything I shot at with it though.

The European guns do have a bit of a long throat ( as do most 7mm's and 6.5mm cartridges) and I wanted to shoot 139 gr bullets but I ended up setteling on 154 gr Hornadys. The 160 gr Nosler core locks shot the best.

I've taken several head of game with a couple 7x65's also and it is a great round as well if you want a single shot or drilling.

Spares,
You could be right, though i had always heard the 257 roberts was legal for german boars... do you have a link to those laws, as i would like to update my knowledge there.

FWIW

My .280 Rem loads and 7x64 loads are the same. The 7x64 likes 160-grainers better, the .280 140-grainers.

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:

quote:

I do not care if someone prefers a 175 gr. bullet, but, I do object to nonsense and his remark on the .270 was just that.

Nonsense it may be.

But in Germany (and in certain countries elsewhere) no current factory USA loaded widely available 270 Winchester is legal for wild boar. The bullet even at 150 grains is too light to be lawful.

I have to correct you. A .270 Win. with a 150grs. bullet is perfectly legal on any wild boar you can imagine in Germany.

The limitation is, that the minimum diamater must be 6.5mm and energy @ 100m must be 2,000 joule or higher.

I find it very interesting to read about the growing populatity of the 7x64 in NA.

Let me give you some insight on the European (or German, if you like) view on this cartridge:

First of all, we hardly ever use the extention 'Brenneke', we simply call it the '7x64'.
It used to be very polular in after-war Germany. It was marketed as the 'THE universal round'. What was primarily considered to be an advantage is its flatter trajectory compared to the traditional 8x57IS and 9.3x62.
As a result there are very many used Mausers and others like Mannlichers and Kricos (to name just a few) on the market.
But every generation wants its own. The most popular chambering in new sporting rifles is definetely the .30-06.
Reloaders in Germany who are trying to revive grandpa's old 7x64 are actually facing a severe problem. Most American made bullets are somewhat smaller in diameter than the German 7mm bullets (SAAMI vs. CIP !!!). In combination with the relatively long throats on 7x64 CIP rifles this leads to rather mediocre accurary.

Most of the above is also true for its rimmed sister, the 7x65, with the exception that it is still quite popular in newly sold combination guns.

quote:

I have to correct you. A .270 Win. with a 150grs. bullet is perfectly legal on any wild boar you can imagine in Germany.

I will stand corrected then!

I had been told, a number of times, by German shooters that at 150 grains it was too light as it was not the minimum TEN GRAMS in weight? Which is 154 grains.

Maybe a small and insignificant difference but so was the half a mile I was over the speed limit when fined doing 30.50mph in a 30mph limit in my home town some five years ago!

So does this TEN GRAMS bullet weight minimum no longer apply for boar in Germany?

It's a fine euro cartridge but ammo for both .270Win and .30 spr can be had at places like Walmart. Not long ago I was able to purchase 150 'gr and 180gr '06 Winchester brand ammo at Dick's for $13.97 per box. Asking for a box of 7x64 ammo at local store might bring about barrel of laughs and laughing is very therapeutic.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
I had been told, a number of times, by German shooters that at 150 grains it was too light as it was not the minimum TEN GRAMS in weight? ...
So does this TEN GRAMS bullet weight minimum no longer apply for boar in Germany?

This minimum never existed. But I can well imagine where it comes from.
If you talk to older hunters, they regularly tell you that a heavier bullet is always the better bullet on wild boar. Those poeple shoot their pigs by the book, meaning that they will make low shots, because of the location of the heart on a boar. Or they will go right for the middle of the silouette. You have to consider that boar hunt is usually conducted at night, so light conditions are usually quite limited. Furthermore, shooting skills among German hunters are commonly not what one would call sniper-like.
Shot placement is therefore suboptimal in many cases, so the beasts usually take a hike after the shot. Going after them is facilitated by a good solid blood trail, which is more reliably produced by heavier than 150 grains bullets.
This is the origin of the 10 gramm myth. Legally it is non-existent. I've taken 90% of my hogs with 150 grainers from a .308.

Took the rifle to the lease this morning and fired just a couple of rounds to check everything out. Topped it with a 2.5-8x32 Zeiss. Was getting between 2500-2600 fps with the Hornady factory rounds with 162 grain bullets. Recoil was non-existent. Tomorrow I will take to the range to sight it in 1 1/2 inches high at 100 yards. Then I am ready for deer season. The Ruger holds four down and feeds and ejects like clockwork. Looks good with the fixed sights too.

Be sure to give is a range report.

KB

IIRC the 7x64 was considered by the German Army as a specific Sniper round just prior to WWII, however logistics determined that the 8x57 remain in place.

I don't think this distinction has ever been awarded to the .280 or .270.

That is the only real difference between the three.

If you'd like to infer that the 7x64 may contain some kind of inherant accuracy I would not argue the point.

I never heard about the military use of the 7x64!
Right is, that the mother of the 7x64 Brenneke, the some years older 8x64S Brenneke, was first developped from Wilhelm Brenneke to replace the 8x57 for the german army (answer to the .30/06). But it was never adopted by the military.

quote:

Originally posted by Monastery-Forester:
, was first developped from Wilhelm Brenneke to replace the 8x57 for the german army (answer to the .30/06). But it was never adopted by the military.

and wisely so! roger

Roger, ya just gotta get one of these 7x64s to believe it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7x64mm

KB

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I just bought a Ruger M77 in 7x64 Brenneke and am curious what folks views are as the pros and cons of the cartridge and what other impressions folks may have. Thanks.

Do you know what the barrel twist is?
I'd be more than happy if I had a 7x64, and would base bullet selection on the twist of the rifling.
I don't look at doing a big comaprison with other excellent 7mm chamberings and I currently have several 7x57's, a 284, a 7-08, and a 7mm Mag. I think there's a place for the 7x64 in my line up.
Kudos on the great acquisition of the Ruger 77, 7x64. Don't see many of them around.

Wait a minute ! What about the 284 Rem ?? Let's be fair and include it .

Range report. Once I got the scope zeroed in, the last group (3 shots) was .725" center-to-center at 100 yards off the bench. Ammo was the Hornady factory 162 grain SST load. Nice little rifle, not sure of the twist, but it seems to have no problem stablizing the bigger bullets. Recoil is very manageable. It is now ready for the deer blind.

Very good. I've burnt a lot of powder, and range time, testing custom barrels and handloads to get less than an inch group. Here you do it with a Ruger factory barrel, and factory ammo. Great. !!!

I see that you are in Texas, so surely you don't have to wait for deer season to test it on hogs. Keeping us waiting for a field report just ain't right.

KB

Mike,
just wait ... as much as people hammer the rugers, they just get to shooting better ... but sub moa with factory ammo out of a "mater stake" aint bad!! mine is right there, too .... and the factory ammo is cheap brass, to boot ... fireformed to your rifle, for the same price as new brass!

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Very good. I've burnt a lot of powder, and range time, testing custom barrels and handloads to get less than an inch group. Here you do it with a Ruger factory barrel, and factory ammo. Great. !!! KB

Something at Ruger must be happening right again.Friday at the range we were having a discussion about what rifle my cousin should buy. He wants to stay with a factory rifle and he is sold on Ruger. The .257 varmint tange safety Ruger is still Moa most of the time but starting to open up. Of three other Ruger varmints we have ( .223,.243, 22-250 )they all are well below Moa. None of these rifles are more than 5 years old. I bought the .257 in 1972.
It looks like he'll get another Ruger in 6.5 Creedmore. roger

One of the Remington 7x64 rifles is listed on GB.

I've been studying some more on this 7x64. Yesterday, I got out the reamer that I bought with the thought of maybe proceeding soon and sending it to a gunsmith along with parts. Upon inspection, I was surprised to see such a long throat. I mean I figured it was long, based on info from others, but I didn't know it was this long:



Why is the throat so long? I'm presuming it's intentional, and based on research, European research. I don't know enough about chambers, throats, cartridges to understand this.

Let's continue the conversation - please.

KB

For what it's worth, I have had nothing but joy from my own 7x64. I got to own the rifle in a sort-of roundabot way. It's a custom rifle by two the most talented riflesmiths here in SA - metalwork by Danie Joubert and the woodwork by Faan de Vos.

It was built for an other customer around a VZ-24 Mauser action, a top-qaulity Walther barrel and an absolutely fantastic piece of Claro walnut. When just about 99% done, the original customer backed out and I stepped in - sort-of. The long and the short of it was that I bought a world-class hunting rifle for about 25% of what a new one would have cost me. Silly me!

I haven't had time to wring the best out of the lovely beast as yet in terms of accuracy but I can testify (thanks to a few well-spent days in the Eastern Cape in June) that a 139-grain Hornady Interbond is absolutely the beans when it comes to red hartebeest (nice bull at exactly 200 metres) as well as gemsbuck (big old dry cow at 284). Both dropped just about instantaneously.

Locally, PMP loads ammo (I think PMP is shite, just by the way, but for the sake of completeness I had to mention it) and 7x64 stuff is not really hard to come by at all, if slightly more pricey. I invested in a set of RCBS loading dies and 250 Norma cases and thst should keep me for a while.

Thus far I think the 7x64 is a death-ray! easy to load for, a .270 plus 30% and 90% of a .30-06, plus the added bonus of guys asking "A seven by what...?" every now and then. Strangely, the last part's pretty imporatnt to me - perhaps that's why the other point of my heart is a 1927-vintage .318 Westley Richards!

My apologies! Blame the spelling mistakes on 10-year-old Aberlour single-malt! Hick!

The .270 trolls just couldn't stay away... or stay quiet.

Without looking, I seem to remember one of my load books states that .280 loading info could be used in the 7x64.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I've been studying some more on this 7x64. Yesterday, I got out the reamer that I bought with the thought of maybe proceeding soon and sending it to a gunsmith along with parts. Upon inspection, I was surprised to see such a long throat. I mean I figured it was long, based on info from others, but I didn't know it was this long:



Why is the throat so long? I'm presuming it's intentional, and based on research, European research. I don't know enough about chambers, throats, cartridges to understand this.

Let's continue the conversation - please.

KB

I would also like to know why the long throat on a seemingly "standard" reamer. I have an 8x68S reamer with a very similar leade and cannot figure out the reason for it.

Traditionaly, European loadings for the 7mm use long, heavy bullets. Often around 175 grains. The Barnes Original was 190 grains, as I recall.

Well, I found an article that talks about my question. It seems informative. Hopefully it will liven up the conversation.

http://www.bellmtcs.com/FAQ/ChamberThroats101.htm

At least it taught me enough to look at the reamer drawing specs more carefully. I finally figured out how to convert from an excel file to jpg, but I think I see what appears to be some errors in there. I have to call about that.

Also, it looks to me that the area named the lead (.2882) is .0042 bigger than bullet diameter, supposedly .284. Anyway, something to think about.



KB