The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Pros, Cons and Impressions: 7x64 BrennekeGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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One of Us |
I just bought a Ruger M77 in 7x64 Brenneke and am curious what folks views are as the pros and cons of the cartridge and what other impressions folks may have. Thanks. Mike | ||
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| One of Us |
Do you have access to Ken Waters pet loads? Ken has some interesting and informative info on the 7 x 64. | |||
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| One of Us |
I do not, is it an article or a book? Mike | |||
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One of Us |
 The .280 is it's near equal and the 7MM rem. its better. They'll all do the job.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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new member |
Ken Waters info is in both a book-- Pet Loads Complete Volume -- or is in an article in --Handloader #112 Nov.-Dec 1984. As others stated it's just like a 280 Rem. but from 1917. | |||
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Moderator |
Mike grafs has hornady factory ammo for 20bucks a box ... and it shoots great .. this is what i used last season while my shoulder was healing up .. an exceptional round, not beaten by the 280/270 twins .. nil recoil, except HEAVY bullets, and easy to feed .. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Thanks Jeff, I found the ammo on Grafs earlier and bought four boxes. That will get me started. Mike | |||
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One of Us |
I bought a CZ 550 in 7x64 a few months ago, and I've shot it some. Shoots pretty good, but I'm having it restocked in a American Classic style, bedded, tweeked, etc. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna like it. After all, I can't find anything to not like. I've got dies, plenty of brass, and plenty of factory ammo. It's a sweet shooter. I got carried away with the idea, and got a new reamer, just before finding a factory rifle. I'll probably go ahead with the FN project anyway in 7x64, then have two. IMO, it's got to be a prime candidate for an everything cartridge, in the medium game catagory. Subject to changing my mind (of course), right now if I sold all my medium cartridge rifles, except one, the keeper would be the 7x64. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Perhaps the finest, with it's 9.3 sibling, sporting cartridge ever designed and one which I NEED, although I have a pair of .270s and four .280s. If, one could obtain the brass as readily as with .270W, I would choose a Brno 22H-"roundbolt" in 7x64, a Brno ZG-47 in 9.3x62 and with good synthetic stocks, mounts and scopes, gladly hunt anywhere with just these two....well, in North America, anyway. | |||
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One of Us |
Not a lot of difference.  | |||
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Hello european .280. Or, properly speaking, the .280 is a domestic 7x64 since IIRC the Brenneke came along first. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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 Why would anyone believe that the 7X64 is better than a .280? Especially hand loaders. I truely do not understand the rave.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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one of us |
What's not to like? It's a great cartridge. In previous posts mostly relating to the 270, I made the comment I had no 7mm's in my collection, when I do fill that void, it will be a 7X64. The 7X64 was the first high performance cartridge which I had the opportunity to learn to shoot, thanks to an Uncle. Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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| one of us |
I think the 7x64 is the most versatile small bore cartridge ever conceived. Had Brenneke come out with it 15 years earlier, I think it would have been an icredible military cartridge. As it stands, it is arguably the premier sporting cartridge for the world outside of the US. I've owned a half dozen over the years, and found them all to be very accurate. (there is very nice one on GB at the moment)  | |||
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One of Us |
The 7x64 is a good cartridge, granted. The last one I had was a Johann Springer Mauser 98-based Sporter. One thing I did NOT like about the 7x64 wasn't actually the fault of the cartridge, but more so that of the rifles. Mine were all European-made, and the chamber/bore dimensions of mine were not nearly as standardized as the .280 is in North America. So, factory ammo in some of mine was just hunky-dory, while in others it was WAY TOO HOT. That may have changed now 35 years later, but I would be very careful with any older 7x64 rifle I might acquire until proof-firing showed its safety. Actually, what I would do is buy a .280 Remington like the Mauser I now have and get the same performance anyway. | |||
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| One of Us |
There's little to be bewildered about. It's not about the 7x64 being better than the 280. Don't be silly. It's about the 7x64 being a very good cartridge, and the opportunity to use it. I also have a 280, and certainly realize the two cartridges provide practically the same performance. I also have a 7x57, and a 7mm Mag - - talk about duplication, and I like them all. Someday I may decide which I like best, and then maybe not - doesn't matter -- I'll either keep them all or sell them, don't know yet. There's a lot of shooting to do between then and now. Maybe I really need a 7mm-08.  KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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| One of Us |
Funny, ya know the way I read the dimensions of those two drawings, though the two cases are very similar, any capacity advantage for handloading just might be in favor of the .280 Remington. To the base of the shoulder, the 7x64 is .029" longer. But, at the base of the shoulder, the .280 is still .016" larger in diameter...which is multiplied by pi to get the true area advantage at that point. But then in the shoulder itself, the 7x64 tapers more quickly (has a sharper shoulder), which means that at the top of the .280 shoulder the "fatness" advantage of the .280 has continued long enough that it is now also .020" longer than the 7x64 to that part of the case. So, the .280 is not only fatter for a longer distance through the body, but the whole empty .280 case including the neck ends up .040" longer than the 7x64. So which has the greater capacity? It doesn't appear to be the 7x64, unless it has a lot thinner brass case walls...which should reduce strength. There may be an advantage to the 7x64, but if there is, I don't find it in the figures. Maybe I did my math wrong? My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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One of Us |
There is no advantage, they are both great cartridges. If it was me, I would stick to the .280 on this side of the pond if for no other reason than we're set up for it. I don't have either, I have a 7mm-08 and I don't feel the least bit disadvantaged with it.  | |||
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That is pretty much a practical view. In the same vain, we stick primarily to the 7x57 mm in South Africa, not that it is better, but it has a lead over the 7x64 and the 7mm-08 is basically non exitant here by us. That means their cases are scares or simply unavailable, and that makes them a non starter. On top, the 7 mm Mauser has a nostalgic lead over the others stemming from the Anglo-Boer War (1899-1902). Warrior | |||
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If you're looking for a capacity advantage, compare to the 7mm Mag case. The appeal of the 7x64 is nostalgic, and appreciation of a real innovation. Whereas the 280 was about marketing and selling Remingtons - capitalism. Why didn't Remington just chamber in 7x64? Since we already had the 7x64, the world didn't need the 280. Yet Remington introduced it anyway. The 280 was advertised to supposedly be the answer to the wildcatter's 7mm-06, but the 280's shoulder is moved forward to prevent it chambering in a 270. So, it's not a 7mm-06. It's fatter at the shoulder so it won't chamber in the 7x64 either. I think the 270 and the 7x64 will chamber in a 280, but I've never tried it. In a way, to me the appeal of the 7x64 is in protest of Remington. I won't own a 700 for the same reason. I do like the 280 cartridge, but I could sell my 280 (Mauser ) rifle and wouldn't miss it.KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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| Moderator |
no nostalgia for me .. the 280 was on my "bucket" list since i was 22 ... then i learned about the 7x64, and a friend made it easy for me to get the 7x64 i am "indifferent" as to which .. just wouldn't bother with the AI of either... now, i do have to say, normally the 7x64 would be in a faster twist barrel, and therefore heavier bullets .. and ammo is CHEAP opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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One of Us |
The 7x64 is my main stalking round. That is if I don't grab the 425.. | |||
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| one of us |
Ironically, Remington made a run of 700's in 7x64 a few years back. They have also been the biggest producer of 7x64 ammunition on this side of the puddle. With the 7x64 being around for nearly 100 years, I never saw a need for the .280 either (or the 7mm-06, .270 Win...) | |||
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| One of Us |
 Contemporarily your statement has validity! In retrospect, however, when the sales for the .280 & .270 was happening (40s through 60s and into the 70s), any rifle or ammo with a mm suffix was not popular and was not in demand in the States. The 7mm REM Mag. in the 60s somewhat changed this. The 6mm Rem could have help but it's original introduction as the .244 in slow twist rifles screwed that up. Had there been a reasonably large following for the 7x64 Brenneke in the States prior to the introductions of the .270 & .280 I'd throw in with you, but I never saw it. The 8th edition of cartridges of the world states " The 7x64 is unique in that it is one of the few cartridges in modern times made by American manufactuerers to meet Europian demand without a significant demand in the U.S. In 1991-92 Federal cartridge Co. added the 7x64 to its premium product line." Personally I think that the English and Europian designed cartridges are for the most part done right and I prefere "most" to our home grown. If my memory serves me right there were only three accross the pond cartridges before say 1960 that ever made a real dent in the American market; the .300 H&H, .375H&H & the 9mm Parabellum. It would seem that if it wasn't Home Grown it stood little chance of selling in the states. For those that can't understand the existance of the .280 rather than the 7x64*** That's why. The 7mmx61mm Sharp and Hart failed also and that cartridge was about as good as it gets.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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We're picking far too many nits! What one will do, so will the other. Pick the one you like. TT | |||
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| One of Us |
Thanks for all the good feedback. I am really looking forward to getting the Ruger M77RS and taking it out to the range. Sounds like I may have found my rifle for deer season this year! Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
Roger - Some good points for thought you have posted above. Some other reasons Americans never really took to the 7x64 might include: 1. Americans were already primarily .30 oriented when it came to rifles...vis the .30-30, .30-06, .303 Savage, .300 Savage, et. al. 2. At about the same time, folks here who wanted a powerful 7 m/m already had two to choose from...the .280 Ross which was here by 1910, and the .275 H&H, at the same time. The Ross in particular was good enough it was also loaded and sold in England as the .280 Kynoch, (and some might argue, was born there). As to where it was sired, I can't dispute that. I was not present at that feted event. I do know the Ross was an excellent cartridge if loaded with the right bullet for the use(s) at hand. I have fired many, many rounds of it loaded with the .288" 180 gr. Barnes bullets. 3. Another thing which played against the 7x64 in the U.S., big time, was WWI. That was not really "our" war, but we had an awful lot of American boys killed in it. Not as many as did half a dozen or so European and Brit Empire countries, but a lot none-the-less. That brought much of Europe into contempt in the U.S. Cities called Berlin in various states had their names changed, the German-American Bunds were shut down, and goods from European combatants were more or less boycotted in some locales. The deja vu of WWII didn't help either. Finally, probably through the Marshall Plan, Germans and Americans patched up their formerly close friendship to late 19th Century levels, and things European became popular again. Then Americans began to hear fairly often of the 7x64 again too. Still, though it was (is) an awfully good cartridge, it didn't/doesn't really have anything greatly superior to its rivals. And Americans were still basically .30 people for big game, getting into the .308, the .300 Wby, etc. Good as the 7x64 is, for me (and maybe many typical Americans), if I needed a 7 m/m game rifle, I think I'd probably pick on the basis of the rifle itself, not whether it was the 7x64 or something close. If it was a gun I liked, and it was easily to be had in one of 7x57, 7x64, 7x65-R, .280 Rem, .280 Ross, 7 m/m Rem Mag, 7x61 S&H, 7 m/m STW, whatever, I'd buy whichever one I could most easily get and buy or make ammo for. And I'd be happier than a pig in poop. Best wishes & my respects to you, Sir. (And now that we're looking at it...amazing how politics plays so heavy a long-term role in all our lives and daily choices world-wide, isn't it?) AC | |||
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| One of Us |
I surely agree with what you said there, AC. Part of the reason I got a 7x64 is because I like the CZ 550 medium action rifle, and a good guy had one for sale in Anchorage. The time coincided with a trip to Anchorage, and I arranged to take a look at the rifle. It wasn't real cheap, but a fair deal, and I just couldn't walk away without it. The bonus was it came with dies, and a bunch of RWS and Norma brass, and some factory ammo. Since then I picked up a bunch more from various places, including AR classified. I found several boxes on Norma factory loads for $20 a box in a gunshop in Anchorage too, and I bought them all. I had forgotten about the fact that Remington made factory ammo for the 7x64 at one time, and so did Federal, and Speer. Much of that ammo is still available on the shelves somewhere, enough to be quite common. Now Hornady has made it, and at a good price too. I also now remember looking at a NIB Remington 700 chambered in 7x64 several years ago, and it looked pretty there in the box, all shiny and dressed up in walnut. It sure was tempting to relax my attitude about 700s just this one time. But then I thought - Williams bottom metal, Sako style extractor, three-position Winchester style safety, new trigger -- hummm -- cha-ching $$$. It would be like driving a yugo with chrome wheels, but it's still a yugo. So, this one time patience paid off, and I got a modern Mauser style action, CRF, three-position safety, excellent factory trigger, steel bottom metal (after CZ sent me a new floor plate). I was thinking about having a 7x64 made on one of my FN actions, and still may do that, but the cost will be at least twice that of the CZ 550. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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| One of Us |
The 7X64 rocks! Long neck, long throat, long live the 7X64! | |||
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| One of Us |
I don’t see a difference between the two of them. If 1.1 grains H2O of total case capacity makes one a powerhouse over the other, then the 7x64 is the winner. I think that when Remington developed their 7mm Express, they used the 7x64 as their model. As “wasbeeman” suggested, the 280 is probably just an American version of the old Brenneke round. | |||
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| One of Us |
As I remember, the 7mm Express was another of Remington's infamous marketing efforts to revive the 280. The 7mm Express name didn't last, and they went back to 280, but either way the farce bought some publicity. Exactly as you said, it was my understanding that the name 7mm Express caused the average goober so much confusion that they couldn't figure out which ammo to buy. They simply couldn't tell the difference or remember the actual name of the cartridge. It's pathetic. And no, Remington didn't use the 7x64 as the model, instead supposedly they used the 7mm-06. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I don’t remember that it was the 280 before it was the 7mm Express but so what, it’s the 280 now. You are right, there was ammunition confusion. Isn’t it interesting how a cartridge (280) born of a 7mm-06, looks like a 7x64mm? | |||
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| One of Us |
Gee, lets get a drawing of a 7-06 up and see how closely it resembles the 7x64. Which came first, the chicken or....... Aim for the exit hole | |||
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| One of Us |
It seems from various reports, and even here on AR, that the 7x64 mm is the main stay in Europe. Not too small or too big for their type of game and it has very manageable recoil. Since it has the same fast twist as the 7x57 mm, it can handle 175 grain bullets comfortably, unlike other 7 mm calibers with slower twists, such as 1-in-10.5". Truth be told, it is so close to a 30-06 throwing a 180 grain bullet that the 30-06 hardly feature in the popularity stakes in Europe, being a foreign caliber as well as an imperial one. The 30-06 is in fact banned in quite a few European countries. Warrior | |||
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| One of Us |
I don't know all the facts, but I've read that in some countries, any cartridge that was used by any military is banned. That includes 6.5x55, 7x57, 308, 30-06, 8x57, and other good ones. Of course the 280 and the 7x64 are not military cartridges, never were, and have always been sporting/hunting cartridges. Since the 7x64 came first, it appears to be as popular in Europe today as it has ever been. Besides, metric cartridge designations are not a problem or the source of confusion to Europeans. It seems that most of the metrically challanged European goobers immigrated to the US long ago, and multiplied far and wide. Rumor is that the decendants of those immigrants are now mostly Republicans. But I don't know anything about that.  KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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| One of Us |
+1. The 280 is the better cartridge. But so is the 6mm Remington the better - much better - cartridge than the 243 Winchester. In Europe where there is a choice you would find that the 7 x 64 was favoured in bolt action rifles as these were "home grown" and the 280 Remington in self-loading rifles as these were not "home grown". But I have never seen a bolt action 280 in a European gun shop. The shelves are full of 280 cartridges...but for use in imported American self-loading rifles. Either way both attest to the popularity of a 30-06 class round but in 7mm with the capability to handle a 175 grain bullet. And both, for that one reason, knock spots off the 270 Winchester! | |||
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| One of Us |
What utter hawgwash, a 175 gr. bullet at 2700 fps-mv. in either the .280Rem. or the 7x64B. is NOT the optimum choice for either round and a .270Win. will do ANYTHING on heavy game that eiher of them will. There is NO real difference between these three rounds, other than personal preference, on any animal one would ordinarily use one for. Elk, Moose, Caribou, any deer and Black Bears are all appropriate quarry when using any of these rounds loaded with a good, controlled-expansion bullet of 150-160 grs. at 2800-2900 fps. In fact, most of the most sudden kills I have made and witnessed in BC and Alberta hunting came from exactly this load combo. I saw an old family friend, now gone to "Valhalla" calmy put a 150NP "old style" into the lungs of a decent Grizzly in the "Flathead Valley" of BC over 40 years ago and it went TU forthwith, no problemo. I see no reason, except bullshit, that any African quadruped would be more "bullet proof" than an equal sized North American Cervid and, the vaunted Lions are HALF the size of a BC Grizzly with skeletal structure to match, so, the old mantra about needing these heavy slugs for some game is just balderdash and poppycock. | |||
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| Moderator |
dewey, with respect, you are partialy correct.. the 175 is not "optimum" for the 280 or the 270 .. it is, however, an excellent choice for the 7x64, due to classic twist rates .. thanks, i'll keep my personal preference, and not call BS on someone that prefers lighter bullets faster. the 270 is not on my list of favorite calibers, but i've hunted with it .. it kills em dead .. so does a 7x57 with 1891 loadings .. that's NOT the point, though, is it? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
I am fully aware of the twist rate aspect of this and was largely directing my comments at the closing remark in "enfieldspares" post. I do not care if someone prefers a 175 gr. bullet, but, I do object to nonsense and his remark on the .270 was just that. I have two 7x57s now and have had about 10 in my life and mine which are Husqvarna 4100 and Brno 21 and 22 and ZKK rifles have never given even close to the consistent performance on game of the dozen .270Ws I have had and the half dozen .280s. I would suggest that, these three rounds, including the 7x64, are probably the most capable for most hunters as damm few I have seen can consistently shoot a .338WM or .375H&H nearly as well and that is what is really crucial. The next thing some guy will be telling me that you need the 220-.30-06 to kill Mule Deer...oh, some guy already did, long ago...... | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Pros, Cons and Impressions: 7x64 Brenneke
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