Sadly for over 128 years 35 cal cartridges have been introduced and failed as a marketing item,yet they just kept coming. The list of currently listed by some are:

35 Remington

.356 Winchester

.358 Winchester

35 Whelen

.350 Remington Mag.
Considered Obsolete American 35 caliber cartridges:

35-30 Maynard-1882

35-40 Maynard-1882

35WSL-1905

351WSL- 1907

35 Winchester-1903

.350 G&H Mag.1930s

35 Newton-1915

.358 Norma Mag.
Each has an individual history but taken as a group it seams they represent a type or catagory and the .35caliber catagory is that which did not catch on.
Would some of you like to share your knowledge or opinions on this apparent failure?? roger

Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone..

Not sure over 30 caliber has ever been popular in the states. The 338 Win Mag and the 375 H&H may be the exception.

Americans get suckered in to energy numbers which squares velocity. Instead of using a bigger bullet, they push them faster. That is why there are so many 30 caliber magnums and they all tend to sell.

Europeans tend to like mid bores with bigger bullets. I think like Europeans. Give me a bigger bullet at moderate velocities.

Well, I can think of two reasons.

1. There isn't anything you can do with any of these rifles you can't do with the more popular .338 Win Mag.

2. To small to legally hunt DG in much of Africa. So, if the guy who hunts Africa has a .375 H&H, what would he need a .35 anything for, unless it was the handy .35 Rem in a Marlin 336? Maybe that's why the .35 Rem is still hanging on after 104 years?

I think many of these 35 cal cartridges are great hunting calibres.

I had a 350 RM for a while, and it was very good. Also I hve done a lot of hunting with a 9,3x74R.

I think these medium bores should be a lot more popular...

The reason they are not is SPEED.

Most Americans have been led to think speed is "Mo Betta".

quote:

The reason they are not is SPEED.

And ballistic Coefficent!

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.358 Norma Mag.

Its not obsolete.

quote:

Originally posted by Nordic2:

quote:

.358 Norma Mag.

Its not obsolete.

One of the better magnums in my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by cobra:

quote:

Originally posted by Nordic2:

quote:

.358 Norma Mag.

Its not obsolete.

One of the better magnums in my opinion.

It sure is and it can stand toe to toe with the old .375 H&H any day.....however....I, personally, have owned four .375 H&H rifles and have never seen a .358 Norma!

Maybe the Europeans buy them but they sure are rare here in the US

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Sadly for over 128 years 35 cal cartridges have been introduced and failed as a marketing item,yet they just kept coming. The list of currently listed by some are:

35 Remington

.356 Winchester

.358 Winchester

35 Whelen

.350 Remington Mag.

It's strange but one hardly ever sees one in used gun section and when gun in non-obsolete .35 cal shows up it does not last long. What is reason for that?

35 Whelen=Nostalgia
I had one many years ago because of Col Whelen. No other reason.
As a kid, I loved reading his writings.

Can't explain the lack of popularity except the "perfect woods rifle" label most have. Seems like everyone now needs to shoot MOA to at least 500 yards.

I have several 35's and for me have found them to be the easiest caliber to find a consistant performing load.

While they may not be popular, used ones don't lastlong in gunshops!

yeah.. all dem 35 caliber failures
38 special
38 smith
357 mag
9mm

9x57
358 winchester (according to winchester's custom shop, THE most requested caliber)


35 rem? give me a break, the ONLY 35 rems one sees for sale, at less than book+ are the autoloaders

356? ever try to pry one of those out of someone's hands?

now, 223, 243, 308 .. those calibers must SUCK, as they are always up for resale

I'd say they have had a rough go of it because of three things:
1. The gun rag hacks not writing "Blowhard Hero Stories" about them. You used to see a short piece about them, but the writers had other favorites.
2. Cost and availability of factory ammo for the average guy.
3. They were not Military Cartridges, with lots of Surplus Ammo/Cases available.

I've had all of these at one time or another:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

35 Remington

.358 Winchester

35 Whelen

.350 Remington Mag. ...

Still have a 350RemMag which is a serious Thumper.

Would have had a pristine condition .356 Winchester Marlin but missed out on it by about 1 hour. I'd seen it at CSA in Charlotte with a 4x Leupold on it for $300. Called 5-6 buddies and told them about it since I had a wad of 35cals at that time - no one was interested.

Thought about it some more. Decided the owner, Eric, "might" cut it 10% for me since I did so much business with him, which would make it $270. Then sell the weenie 4x scope for $100 and have less than $200(with the TAX) in the Marlin. Oh yes, good deal.

So, during lunch I went to get it. Should have "called" first. As I was going in CSA, I held the door open for a guy coming out with his arms full - he had the rifle!

35cal in different Cases has served me well. And I hope they continue to in the future.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
yeah.. all dem 35 caliber failures
38 special
38 smith
357 mag
9mm :

As always, you're right Jeff! Should have said rifle cartridges. My silly error. roger

Went to the range yesterday to check the zero on my "obsolete" Sako 358 Norma mag, 23" Douglas barrel. After plunking 3 225 gr. Nosler Partitions (also obsolete,) on top of each other, I chronoed two rounds at 2997,2996 fps uncorrected 20 ft from the muzzle.
Yup, gotta love those obsolete rounds.
sbsmith

Dear Bartsche:

I have not looked at sales volume for the .35 caliber cartridges and firearms, so I don't know why they don't sell as well.

But after loads of research, I'm building two 35 Whelen AI's. They should be good killers of moose, bear and the larger Africa antelope like eland. And they fit and feed from an 8x57 Mauser box magazine with only a little adjustment with four instead of three magnum rounds in the magazine.

Actually, John Taylor really liked the 35 caliber cartridges, particularly the 350 Rigby and 350 Rigby magnum. He liked them better than the 9.3's.

Also, I cannot find even one bad opinion about any of these .35 caliber cartridges from the 35 Remington to the 35 STA or 350 G&H magnum.

I would hazard a guess, that for most hunting in the lower 48, a .35 caliber cartridge is not essential, if you own a 30-06 or one of the 300 magnums.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Who said the 35 Whelen is a failure? I didn't notice my 35 Whelen when it crossed over.

KB

Yale ----- Thanks for mentioning the .358 STA, what a great round. Bullets from 185 grains up to 310 grains and a 270 grain North Fork at 3000 fps, check it when compared to the .375 H&H. I shoot two STA's extensively and have taken one to Alaska, Africa, Colorado, and Alberta, and couldn't have been better armed for what I was hunting. It is the .358 Norma with 200 fps extra on each round. I will agree it is not needed for the lower 48, but it sure is deadly on Elk when shot by a shooter that can handle it. It does take shooting to handle it properly, maybe that is the rub. IMO it is the perfect Brown Bear chambering. With the Whelen and the STA, one would be armed for anything in North America. Good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by Yale:
Dear Bartsche:


Also, I cannot find even one bad opinion about any of these .35 caliber cartridges from the 35 Remington to the 35 STA or 350 G&H magnum.
Chris Bemis

Personally I think it is a great caliber. I have twoo wild cat 35s; a .358x41 and a .358x.404 IMP. The .358x41 will deliver a gas checked 300 grain bullet at over 2200 fps. that equals the energy level of the 30-06.
The .358x404 IMP surpasses the energy level of factory .375 H&H.
The former would be a great short range cartridge up to elk size game. As was said ;not many look to short range cartridges.
In the lower 48 the latter is a bit much and really not needed. It was also pointed out that in many countries in Africa it would be illegal for dangerous game. Also found out that you had to be really sective on what scope to mount. A number were short lived. So again limited usfullness.
Also do you remember any strong marketing effort to promote any of the 35s? The environment having little if any 35 caliber propaganda certainly would have an ill affect on hunter's acceptance.
The 35 Rem was kept alive by the old slide action group. But in the 50s with the introduction of the Mod. 760 and it's more powerful cartridges it seems that the 35 Remington started loosing it's charm.
The lack of heavy bullet selection through the years may have played a roll. Why for example did we have early on 300 grain bullets in the .338 and few if any in the 35 caliber?
To make matters worse the plethora of new ( more modern???)cartridges that has hit the market in the last 12 to 17 years has contributed to the 35s lack of popularity.
There have been a number more of sound reasons posted on this thread and probably more to come.
Oh! the two original lists that were posted were in the indicated catogories as published in Cartridges Of The World. Sorry if they had some favorites published as obsolete. See if you can get in touch with Frank Barnes. roger

quote:

The lack of heavy bullet selection through the years may have played a roll. Why for example did we have early on 300 grain bullets in the .338 and few if any in the 35 caliber?

Bart, this is probably a pretty big factor. You probably have twice the bullet selection in .338. But considering the .358 STA will shoot a 225gr bullet at 3100 fps, well, that would certainly cover all of NA, and alot of Africa. It never ceases to amaze me how an initial marketing blooper can doom a cartridge, or in this case, an entire caliber to the back pages of the loading manual.

When I first started deer hunting near Tofte Minnesota, the woods was thick and finding a place for a long shot was almost nonexistent.

The year was 1961 and the rifle of choice was the M-94 in .30-30 and quite a few M-99 in .303 or .250-3000 or even .300 Savage. Almost no one at that time hunted with a .30-06.....at least in that area.

It seems there was also quite a few with Marlin levers in .35 Remington as well as other Remington rifles in that same chambering. The .35 caliber was in deed represented in the north woods......and almost all deer hunting at that time was in the woods!

I was the rebellious one with a Remington 760 in .270 Winchester and with a K-6 scope to boot.....a real rookie by most standards.

My older brother then bought a Remington 760 carbine in .30-06 and everyone from that time on went up in power....velocity....The 1917 Enfields and '03 Springfields started to hit the market and became the more common rifle in the woods......and then we saw the new regulations..... BUCKS ONLY and telescopes became common as hunters wanted to look for horns to be sure.....

Hi-line wires was then run through the woods and all of a sudden there was a lot of long distance shooting available where there wasn't before.....My father traded his worn out M-99 in .303 for a M-99 in .308 Winchester.....it was I who talked him into the .308 instead of the .358 and I must say that it wasn't a hard sell.....he agreed easily. That gun would be very valuable today had he bought it in .358.....sai la Vie!

My point is simply that the environment changed.....deer became far more plentiful and expanded into the plains where a lot longer shots were common......and even the .30-30 went by the wayside.....slower than the .30-06 and many of them unable to hold a telescope.

Many things spelled the doom of the .35s.....and this is certainly one of them....

Had uncle Sam not dumped a ton of surplus .30-06 rifles on us.....which then became the standard for hunters!

I'm surprised that we lament the lack of popularity of the .35 calibers.....the .30-30 is lost to history as well.....I haven't seen one while hunting in at least twenty years!

GOOD SHOW, VD. roger

358 Norma? Obsolete? Joke? Yes!
Mine is a former 308 Norma mag mod `98 re chambered to 358NMetc,SS Mab barrel,full length ally B+C stock, let me say it is accurate as all shiteit is a hammer!

I`m running Woodleigh Hydro`s 225grs in her.

Here she is having a rest on a wild cherry,a favourite rub tree for sambar stags.

She doesn't sit in the safe,she go`s hunting.

quote:

Would some of you like to share your knowledge or opinions on this apparent failure?? roger

IMO there are many that do not want to "hunt" anymore. They would rather shoot from 400 yards, then move closer with in the effective range of the 35's. Many deer hunters today believe that sitting in the tripod stand all day is hunting, while they may shoot their deer with a highly accurate rig, it is not hunting.

They got pretty bad press from sportswriters of the 50s through 70s, especially Jack O'Connor. Not sure why.

If you looked in my safe, you would find a 35 remington, 35 whelen and 2 350 remington mags,

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
They got pretty bad press from sportswriters of the 50s through 70s, especially Jack O'Connor. Not sure why.

and back to ole 270-jack and sissies

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:
358 Norma? Obsolete? Joke? Yes!
Mine is a former 308 Norma mag mod `98 re chambered to 358NMetc,SS Mab barrel,full length ally B+C stock, let me say it is accurate as all shiteit is a hammer!

Probably most here would agree that the .358 Norma is really a great well designed cartridge. Sadly the the vast majority of US hunters are little aware of it and have almost no insentive to go out and buy one.Many avid hunters I know don't dote on such things as we are discussing. They have their .270, 7mm or 30-06 and just go out and do it.Than there are those who are swayed buy whatever is the latest and greatest the market has to offer. The gunners such as we are in the market minority.What we hold as warm and wonderful is of little meaning to either camp.
The listing of the .358 Norma being obsolete was in the 8th edition 1997 Guns Of the World.That's a few years ago!!
Have you seen anything happen since than to generate any additional sales in the US or anywhere else? Many years of enjoyment to you and your .358 Norma roger

quote:

Have you seen anything happen since than to generate any additional sales in the US or anywhere else?

Just because some mag suggests they are obsolete means Jack with me.
I do know that the calibre is a hammer and out performs the W.338` ,keep`s alongside the 375 H+H for energy and will shoot flatter with 180 grainers than most of the usual 30 cal`s as in `06/300 mags.

I feel that there are many out there that are of the persuasion that "oh yes I had one it was a good rifle but I sold it" did so because they boot a bit on the other end and lets face it there are many amongst us that don't particularly like that aspect.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
They got pretty bad press from sportswriters of the 50s through 70s, especially Jack O'Connor. Not sure why.

O'connor was a Western hunter and he was not really curious about all types of firearms nor did he appear to like shooting just for the hell of it. I like to shoot almost anything that provides a learning opportunity that I can afford.

Gryph, Obsolete just means it's not longer chambered in a new factory gun. It doesn't mean it will not get the job done. Modern bullets and powder can only make them better.

Ladies and Gentlemen:

If my memory serves me correctly, Jack O'Connor thought the 338 Win. Mag was superior to the 35 Whelen. He also scratched his head in print, and wondered why the 358 Winchester fell flat in sales.

He really liked the 358 Winchester and the 35 Remington.

So, except for the 35 Whelen, which I really like, he had praise for the rest of the 35 cartridges.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
Gryph, Obsolete just means it's not longer chambered in a new factory gun. It doesn't mean it will not get the job done. Modern bullets and powder can only make them better.

I have idea Schultz and Larsen or other Euro manufacturer`s build in that cal...anyway she will do me for a while.

I have a 350 rem mag ruger 77mk2 its great on pigs, its a "stay down rifle" may not kill em first
shot but not many get up to run off like the 270,
7 mm,& 30s.

Have also thought about having a 358 NM made. Swift makes a 280 gr (SD .312) and North Fork makes a 270 gr which probably has about a .30 SD. They would be great bear performers and plains game.
Like a few have said. I really do not know what is to gain with the 375's shooting 300's at the same velocity and ammo available everywhere. Pretty hard to find any 358 norma on the shelf here in North America.

Serious experienced hunters will often choose .35caliber rifle. They vanish quickly from used gun racks. Even Mossberg .350 went fast. Yes, Mossberg bolt rifle from early 70s went fast out the door.

A couple have mentioned how fast 35s ddisapear from gun racks. Does this indicate that there is a market for 35s out there that is not being served? What's the story? roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
A couple have mentioned how fast 35s ddisapear from gun racks. Does this indicate that there is a market for 35s out there that is not being served? What's the story? roger

Not a chance.....if there was a market for .35 calibers the market would be flooded with them.....

I've seen a few but only a few at the used racks and they do disappear but only to collectors.....they are priced right and wanted by only a few.

How many of them do you see out deer hunting?

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:


How many of them do you see out deer hunting?

I have seen one.......oops that is the one I carry.

quote:

they are priced right and wanted by only a few

Often times the reason they don't last is they are a "double deal".

Imagine a sporterized Mauser in .35 Whelen sitting in your typical guns store. Average Joe will have no idea what he's looking at, so the shop owner has to discount it once for being an odd caliber, and again for being an unusual build. A sharp eyed forum member will recognize it for what it is....the best deal in the shop and snap it up! Now since only us knowlegable odd balls would build something like that is the first place, chances are it's a real shooter, and the new owner will be hooked on the .35 cal forever.