First of all, I know that .45 caliber isn't a mediium bore, but I also know that the "big bore" boys would cry if I put it in that thread. Besides, another thread in this forum had someone posting it along with a .223 for elk, as a joke, but I think the 45-70 would be a fine choice for elk, or just about any NA game within reasonable ranges, and is not at all marginal for elk. What say you?

I have a Marlin GG that shoots quite well w/ 350grJSP @ 1700fps, sub 2" groups @ 100yds. I would use it for elk, but only as a timber rifle, less than 150yds. Other calibers offer greater range & more options.

I don't own a .45-70....never have....never will....

I see no useful purpose for one. It's a short range round and often found in a heavier than necessary gun and has a trajectory like a rainbow.

Yes, I know it can be loaded to useful energy levels, but if one wanted a .458 then he should buy one if 2,000+FPS is on the menu.

There is little doubt that a .45-70 will ruin an elk's day inside 75 yards.....with my luck the elk would be a big 7 X 7 and 200 yards off....just right for a real rifle.....something like a .30-06 and more!

A 45-70 will do just fine on Elk. With a 350-405gr bullet you should be fine our around 200 yards, depending on your skill. In open country a .338 win is hard to beat for elk. Depending on your hunting conditions, a 45-70 can certainly get the job done.

I have a Marlin 1895 Cowboy 45-70 with the 26" barrel on it and have used it for deer hunting with a very successful hunt. The shot was only about 125 Yards and the results were dramatic, it looked kind of like the buck bounced he went down so fast.

I have two loads for mine. One called mild that is a 350 grain Lazer cast bullet out the tube at around 1400 fps. It is fun to shoot and has very mild recoil and if the sun is at the proper angle and you are shooting longer distances, you can see the bullet trail. The other load is called wild and is a Lazer Cast 405 grain bullet at 1975 fps. Recoil is stiffer but my daughter in law has shot it just fine. That load would take anything that you would find in North America. Many of the buffalo hunters used loads in the .45-.50 caliber and at weights from 400-500 grains at around 1350-1600 fps to take these big critters at long ranges. A local gunwriter, Brian Pearce, used a 45-70 on his hunts in Africa for Cape Buffalo and if I remember right he had a pass through on one buffalo and into another one standing behind the first. That article should be available in one of the Stab and Blast magazines.

I would think a 405 grain bullet above 1500+ fps would be fantastic on elk. The trajectory makes it harder to hit stuff at the longer distances but if you get that figured out you should do just fine.

Whenever we go camping in some of the more primitive parts of Idaho, where Grizzly Bears are present, I use my 45-70 as my camp gun and keep it by my sleeping bag at night.

The 45-70 is a fun caliber to shoot and you will enjoy it. Good luck.

In the areas we hunted elk (dark timber north Idaho) My partner used a 45/70 exclusivly, and I used a 375 stainless model 70. I have personally ate 2 elk that fell to the venerable old girl, and they tasted great. Keep in mind using a shorter (if you want to call inside 200 yards short) range wepon requires the use of ones head, feet, and intuition. But that is why we call it hunting not sniping. Steep hills and dark timber requried this set up.

if you can hit them, modern loads will take them cleanly

I'm positive good handloads with added power would work fine for elk. If I was positive my shot would be less that 200 yards and preferably less than 100 yards I might try the 45/70. My problem with it is my poor ability to accurately judge distance and the extreme drop that the lack of velocity exhibits at more than 200 yards. I would much rather use a 338wm and be positive I could hit my target at any range I might be comfortable shooting.

Although when loaded with proper bullets, the 45/70 will give lengthwise penetration on Cape Buffalo out to 500 yards, its slugs simply bounce off the much tougher elk at hunting ranges. Sorry, but someone has to tell the truth around here!

I picked up a little 45/70 guide gun a couple of months ago and have now had the chance to experiment with it a bit. In the heavy timber, I think it would be a superb elk cartridge. If you want maximum penetration, do yourself a favor and try the Barnes 400 grain Buster bullets. Barnes says they will shoot should-to-shoulder on a bison. They are not kidding! Stick a 400 grain Speer flat nose in the tube and four of those Barnes Buster bullets in the magazine all running about 1900 fps and you are ready to go on most any game if you keep your shoots within a hundred yards or so. I know guys just scoff at the idea of taking a cape buffalo with a 45/70 but load this thing with five Barnes Busters and give me a decent braodside presentation at about 50 to 75 meters or so and I sure wouldn't hesitate to try my hand on one.

quote:

Originally posted by daniel77:
First of all, I know that .45 caliber isn't a mediium bore, but I also know that the "big bore" boys would cry if I put it in that thread.

Probably so.

quote:

...I think the 45-70 would be a fine choice for elk, or just about any NA game within reasonable ranges, and is not at all marginal for elk. What say you?

There are 28 WMAs in Southeastern KY with a thriving Elk Herd. Most of those WMAs offer Hunting opportunities where the 45-70 would work fine.

However, they also offer l-o-n-g-e-r shot potential as well. If you have the ability to run through the mountains quietly and still be able to place a bullet accurately, then you "might" get a shot at one you spot off in the distance - maybe!

Then again, you may get all your Hunter Orange on, walk 200yds into the woods and have a 370" class Trophy within 100yds.

As long as a person accepts the limitations of a rifle, then he should use it if that is what he wants to do.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
As long as a person accepts the limitations of a rifle, then he should use it if that is what he wants to do.

Best of luck to you.

This is a good statement.....But who wants to limit themselves to a .45-70?

In the last several years of hunting deer in Wisconsin and Nebraska, I've not seen a single gun chambered for .45-70 or even the .30-30 being used......and for good reason!

For those that insist on using their .45-70....have at it.....it's your call...I'll pass however!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
t.....But who wants to limit themselves to a .45-70? ...

Having "looked at"( ) a lot of Elk, I agree.

I do have a 444Mar which I feel sure would Kill one up close, but it will never have the opportunity to do so. Just because I've been there and "looked at" ( ) a lot of Elk, I've found longer distance, flatter shooting, cartridges(300Mags and up) more to my liking.

But, if a 45-70 is what Daniel wants to use, and he works within it's limitations, then I also agree - best of luck to Daniel.

I shot a large 6X6 elk with my Shiloh sharps 45/70 three years ago.
Approximately 100 yards, Texas heart shot. Recovered the 405 grain speer bullet under the hide in the neck. The load was pretty warm, about 1800 fps.
It dropped in it's tracks.

daniel77,
Take a look at this thread:
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/...hy_a_45_70_pic_heavy

He was using a 45-110 but said that the 45-70 would do the same thing and is fact going to use a 45-70 when he goes back to Africa in Oct. of this year...
Here are links to his two African hunts at the Shiloh forum:
http://www.shilohrifle.com/for...711&highlight=africa

http://www.shilohrifle.com/for...1261&highlight=zebra

It all boils down to how much time and practice you can spend to learn your rifle..

I killed a nice bull a few years ago with a Marlin 45/70 Guide gun. 65yds, 350gr Hornady, clocked at 1850fps. Carried great, kicked like hell on wheels with any load over 1500fps and big slugs (can't really describe the blobs of lead as bullets in the same breath as say Berger VLD's for a 30 cal.)

I was real big on that rifle until I saw a giant 6x6 at close to 300yds the next year in an area that I swear you'd NEVER get a shot over 150yds let alone 250yds. SOOOOO, if you are willing to walk away knowing that you could have shot the bull of a lifetime except for the fact that you were carrying mid-19th century technology around instead of something a bit more modern. (I now hunt elk with a 9.3x62 so I can hardly say I'm on the cutting edge of anything except early 20th century retro-cartridges...) The 45/70 is a good choice, I just don't own one anymore.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by vapodog:

I don't own a .45-70....never have....never will....
I see no useful purpose for one.

It's a short range round ------QUOTE]

Hmmmmm-- short range--

The Report of the Secretary of War, 1880, Volume III, under the chapter titled, "Extreme Ranges of Military Small Arms," had this to say:
"The firing was done by Mr. R.T Hare of Springfield Armory who has the enviable distinction, so far as is known, of being the only person in the world who has hit the 'Bull's-Eye' six feet in diameter at 2,500 yards with three different rifles, and who has ever fired at and hit so small a target as that described in this report at 3,200 yards.

In comparison with this, all other so-called 'long range firing' pales into insignificance. The gun was held under the arm, a muzzle rest only being used."

I used to reload 100 gr bullets for a Sav 99 250-3000 for a old boy who killed anything he pointed at...mostly deer and Elk...mostly one shot, 100yd or less, open sights.

I've taken two Elk with a Lyman 54 cal smokepole, 75 and 125 yds with a round ball at about 900 fs MV...one shot apiece.

I know a few indians AND whitemen who use 22 Hornets or 223 to take deer and elk and I've taken many a deer with a 22LR.

I wouldn't think twice about using my 45-120 loaded with 45-70, 350-450 gr slugs to take just about ANY animal in the world...except the toothy kind.

I have rifles/pistols from 17 Rem/20gr bullets at 4500fs to 12GaFH/1500 gr SLUGS at 1200 fs and (have or had) at least ONE rifle/pistol in most all of the available cartridges and calibers so I have my pick of "Elk" shooters.

My favorite is a 338-06 with 225 gr Hornady's just because it was one of the first shooters I built FOR ELK, over 40 years ago...that long dead ol'boy I used to load 250-3000's for would spit on my boots everytime he saw that rifle if I didn't watch and jump quick enough...."dumber than a post" he would say..."...wasting all that powder".

It AIN'T the caliber...it's the shooter and where the bullet goes that gets the job done.

Once in a while I watch...through the scope on my Ruger 10-22...a few Elk filtering through the trees 50 yds behind my house...it's so easy to put the cross hairs on an eye while they watch ME.

A lot of men dream about BIG game and BIG cartridges and get a BIG woody...use the right bullet at the right velocity WITH a scope and the 45-70 stops being a 100 yd "woods" gun and becomes a 500 yd "long ranger" without hardly breaking a sweat.

A whole lot of people talk a bunch of schat about generalities and forget or never know there are many roads to Nirvana...maybe you should checkout some ballistic table for bullets with a different shape and higher BC than the usual FN's found in facttory 45-70 loads.

My 30" 45-120 shooting 300 gr spitzer in a 45-70 case has no trouble hitting well over 2600 fs at ~40KCUP...just about like shooting my 375 H&H and very similar trajectory. Sage rats out to about 400 yds are like shooting fish in a barrel...plus there is a crater for the pieces and parts.

You need to think outside the "normal envelope" when talking about the 45-70.

Luck

Foobar, good write up on what can be done with 140 year old technology. At my club, the long range black powder guys can hit the 500 yard Silhouette practically every time. Of course they are not exactly using Marlin guideguns either. They have excellent equipement, fancy sights, a passion for these rifles, and alot of practice with them. Now considering that the I would not expect the average forum reader to put in the time, practice and dedication to become proficent with his modern scoped rifle at 500 yards, I certainly would not expect most hunters to make a clean one shot kill on game at 500 yards with the stock sights on a Marlin guide gun, that they have put less then 3 boxes of shells through it. Under these conditions, a 200 yard limit if probably more realistic.

I took a standard marlin 45/70 loaded to a little over 2000 fps/350 horn to namibia. I had shot it until 200 yds was no more a problem then 300 yds was to an 06. It dropped everything I pointed it at, including eland with nothing traveling over 40-50yds after being hit. It took some paperwork, but the rifle is now with my friend there in namibia. He cant understand why everyone wouldnt bring one to hunt with, there in the brushy north of the country.

quote:

I was real big on that rifle until I saw a giant 6x6 at close to 300yds the next year in an area that I swear you'd NEVER get a shot over 150yds let alone 250yds. SOOOOO, if you are willing to walk away knowing that you could have shot the bull of a lifetime except for the fact that you were carrying mid-19th century technology around instead of something a bit more modern.

I rest my case.....may the jury return the verdict.....?

Now lets see.....where's my .338-06?

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
t.....But who wants to limit themselves to a .45-70? ...

Having "looked at"( ) a lot of Elk, I agree.

I do have a 444Mar which I feel sure would Kill one up close, but it will never have the opportunity to do so. Just because I've been there and "looked at" ( ) a lot of Elk, I've found longer distance, flatter shooting, cartridges(300Mags and up) more to my liking.

But, if a 45-70 is what Daniel wants to use, and he works within it's limitations, then I also agree - best of luck to Daniel.

*************************************************************************

NEWS FLASH HOTSH$T CONFESSION!!!!!!

Old Glenn, aka Hotsh$t & Dumbsh$t finally confessed to the extent of his elk hunting experience...... WHICH IS NONE!!!!!!!!


Respectfully,

O.K. then, can we all get back to the A.R. I used to enjoy?

vapodog..so if using a 45-70 is mid 19th century technology, then wouldn't using later 19th century technology...double rifles to be exact...be as chancy to use for that once in a lifetime trophy cape buff, elephant, or lion?
Sorry, couldn't resist......

Yeah...those "Long Ranger" BP boys are as persnickity with their shooters, equipment and loads as I am with my stuff. I don't do much BP anymore...just one rifle and one pistol...can't afford and not enough time for too many hobbies.

We all need to know our limits...my eyes are so bad now I NEED some kind of scope!!!! I still shoot well enough with open sights to hit what I point at out to about 50 yds, but that is more from instinct and all the powder I've burned than anything else.

The average hunter is just that..."mediocre to average"...and no flame intended...lots of reasons why and they read more gun rags than good data so get constantly blind sided with BS.

Plus not everyone has spend 60 years playing with shooters, experimenting, asking those questions very few can answer...so you do your own work to GET the answer.

Hardly ANYONE will question the status quo, the "Good ol' boys" or conventional wisdom and they all get pumped full of "stuff" when it comes to what to use for a once in a lifetime "African game" Safari.

We're all human with all the problems and baggage that comes with being human.

Every once in a while I run across a like minded individual and it is sure enjoyable to just discuss gun things without the tank getting filled with testosterone "Hi-test" or other adolescent posturing.

To me the joy is in the hunt...not in the killing...and many more times than not I just watch, then leave the animal to live another day...I'm a long way past having to prove anything to anyone...besides...I've done way more killing in my life than I care to think about...except sage rats...something about rodents brings that blood lust urge out 1000%...hahahahahaha.

I subscribe to the "take plenty of rifle" point of view and "hit'um where it counts"...the rest is just smoke and mirrors.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
vapodog..so if using a 45-70 is mid 19th century technology, then wouldn't using later 19th century technology...double rifles to be exact...be as chancy to use for that once in a lifetime trophy cape buff, elephant, or lion?
Sorry, couldn't resist......

Except that no serious hunter of DG shoots them beyond 100yds IMO, closer is the point after all. Also JMO, but banging steel @ 500yds is not hunting. I can hit 12"sq steel @ 220yds w/ a 44mag, doesn't mean I want to stretch it to taking elk.

Build the double and show us how it's done VD. roger

With my luck, if I took a 45-70 elk hunting, I'd see a bull like this one at 300 yards.....



You tell me what I'd be muttering all the way home!!!!!

Decent for elk, best for Cape Buffalo.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
With my luck, if I took a 45-70 elk hunting, I'd see a bull like this one at 300 yards.....


You till me what I'd be muttering all the way home!!!!!

Obviously you didn't check out those links I posted above, eh Vapo?
If you knew your rifle, trajectory and used a range finder 300 yds would be a chip shot for a 45-70 even at 1325fps ... Our range is only 300 meters long and I can tell you no animal would be safe at that distance when a friend is there with his Shiloh Sharps using a 425-500gr cast bullets, black powder with a kicker and his tang site.. Between him and another friend who uses a 45-70 to feed his family, I have a renewed interest in the 45-70...
Vapo, I am not saying that the 45-70 is better than your 338-06 for taking elk, just different and as good if you take the time to learn your rifle and load!
FOOBAR,---------------------------------------------------------------------------
It AIN'T the caliber...it's the shooter and where the bullet goes that gets the job done.
A whole lot of people talk a bunch of schat about generalities and forget or never know there are many roads to Nirvana...maybe you should checkout some ballistic table for bullets with a different shape and higher BC than the usual FN's found in facttory 45-70 loads.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like the way you think!
To my way of thinking "conventional wisdom" as you call it or "common knowledge" as I call it, is what people (mostly old farts like myself) use to keep others at their level..
To me all this is suppose to be fun!
And I hear you about needing a scope... Try one of those Leupolds with their new CDS turrents set up for the trajactory of your load in your rifle...

Humm, let's see: IF you know the range. OK, so how many times have you had over three seconds to make a shot? Deer and antelope, lots for me, majority, but there were a significant few like the last nice buck I shot.

I was watching a group of does across a small canyon (thought it was about 250yds) when a nice buck strated walking through the trees away from me! No time, first shot low. WTH? hold for the top of the back as he gets ready to bolt and DRT. NOW, out comes the range finder, 335yds. Opps. Obviously the arm chair experts would say that I should have ranged the does, whatever; the whole incident took less time than it just did to write it, and I touch type!

Elk in black timber where you MIGHT see a big bull thourgh the trees at 300yds for maybe 3 seconds? Yeah right...

IF know your rifle. Ok, if your 45/70 does 2300fps with a 350gr slug and if you're sighted in at 200yds the drop to 300 is: approx.15" If your 45/70 does a more realistic 1850fps with a 350gr slug the drop is 24 between 200 and 300. Not to leave out the 500gr at 1325fps the drop between 200 and 300 is around 44 inches. Sooo, where to tape the drop chart, on our stock, on your sleve...

There is nothing wrong with using a 45/70 for anything you might what to hunt with it. It works. Just be realistic and play out in your mind whether or not missing out on a 6x6 at 300 or 350 is actually going to haunt you.

There seems to be some discussion on "opinion" vs experience, I've killed 27 elk, seen at least that twice that number shot and seen the results of dozens more over the years. I've guided elk hunts and yes, for the last few years in Montana you could shoot 2 elk if you had a mind to, and I did. Mostly cows, a few nice 5x5's and a few rag horns. (Still waiting on my big 6x6 they're not behind every tree on public land like they are on Turner's Flying-D.) Deer, hundreds, no, not BSing, I really don't know, used to fill my grandma's, mom's and occationally my dad's tags as a well as my own growing up. (Save the lecture on ethics, they were on our land, in our crops, they were OURS PERIOD.)Antelope, about 60. Rifles used, as I recall, 22LR & 22Hornet (deer only) 223 (deer and antelope), 243 (deer and antelope) 7x57 (deer, elk, hogs) 7mmRem (deer, elk) 30-06 (deer, elk, antelope) 308 (deer, antelope) 35 Whelen (deer, elk, antelope, plains game) 9.3x62 (deer, elk, antelope, plains game) 45/70(deer, elk, bear) 44mag. pistol (deer, elk, bear) 338 Win mag. (deer, elk, antelope, bear) 270(deer, elk, antelope, plains game). I think I've killed most of my big game with a 270. And I used a bow for a few years until my arms and shoulders go screwed up. (deer and elk)

Guess what?

They all worked. Some better than others but compared to running them down and stabbing them with a sharp stick WAY BETTER!

Yes, it's the nut behind the wheel. If you are a great shot with a 223 (or even a 22LR for that matter) you can kill anything. If you are not a great shot then you're probably just a jack-ass trying to impress who knows or cares what or whom.

quote:

Obviously you didn't check out those links I posted above, eh Vapo?
If you knew your rifle, trajectory and used a range finder 300 yds would be a chip shot for a 45-70 even at 1325fps ... Our range is only 300 meters long and I can tell you no animal would be safe at that distance when a friend is there with his Shiloh Sharps using a 425-500gr cast bullets, black powder with a kicker and his tang site.. Between him and another friend who uses a 45-70 to feed his family, I have a renewed interest in the 45-70...
Vapo, I am not saying that the 45-70 is better than your 338-06 for taking elk, just different and as good if you take the time to learn your rifle and load!

A .45-70 at 1325 FPS will still be close to four feet low at 300 yards even if sighted at 200 yards...

There's no denying that the shot can be made by a competent marksman.....however the ft-lb of energy will trail off to roughly 900 at the 300 yard mark and most folks will say that 1,000 ft-lb is a minimum for even deer! Even with a 500 grain bullet, the 1500 ft-lb threshold for elk is lost by 100 yards.

45-70 for elk?...No thanks....I want a real gun!

I wonder how many Bison have been killed with a 45-70?

I would never take mt 45-70 as my primary Elk gun. I have much more suitable guns for the purpose. I do however shoot my Guide Gun quite a bit. The load I'm useing now is a 420 hard cast g/c at slighly under 1700 fps. We were out last weekend doing some longer range off hand practice, with a 416, 338 and STW. We also had the GG along. I was surprised at how little hold over it took at 250 yds. This gun will shoot under 1" groups with the 405 Rem and a scope. I'm actually thinking about thowing the 1.5 x 5 back on it. Kinda seems all wrong to have a scope on a lever gun but it really changes how you see it from an accuracy standpoint. Open sights it's a 150 yds max gun for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
I wonder how many Bison have been killed with a 45-70?

Good point.

And one that goes hand in hand with "I wonder how many Bison have been wounded (and lost) with a 45/70?"

It's 2010, not 1870 and things are just a bit different out here on the edge of The Great Plains...

quote:

Originally posted by ACRecurve:
Although when loaded with proper bullets, the 45/70 will give lengthwise penetration on Cape Buffalo out to 500 yards, its slugs simply bounce off the much tougher elk at hunting ranges. Sorry, but someone has to tell the truth around here!

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
I wonder how many Bison have been killed with a 45-70?

Good point.....thank God for the .45-70! If all those early buffalo hunters would have had .300 Magnums, there would not be any buffalo left...

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
I wonder how many Bison have been killed with a 45-70?

Good point.....thank God for the .45-70! If all those early buffalo hunters would have had .300 Magnums, there would not be any buffalo left...

How far was that shot at Adobe Walls that killed an Indian chief, or his horse? Wasn't it about a mile and wasn't it a 45/70?

quote:

Originally posted by ACRecurve:
How far was that shot at Adobe Walls that killed an Indian chief, or his horse? Wasn't it about a mile and wasn't it a 45/70?

You know.....every time I hear this story, the distance gets farther and the status of the Indian escalates...and yes, the cartridge changes to match the current need!.....

There was a similar shot at the Wagon Box fight, reported right at a mile, but that was with a 50/50 conversion.