I know they went to push feed a long time ago and then came back to CRF in recent years. But I am not sure when. I would like something as close as possible to the pre-64 "riflemans rifle" without paying the absurd pre-64 luxury tax and I have no idea as to the quality of their product today. Any suggestions as to which circa M-70's might also be decent actions?

They returned to manufacture of the CRF action around 1993-94. Id look for something with 5 digit serial number made around that time frame.

Thanks Eastcoaster. Has their quality been fairly consistent since then? Im pretty much a Mauser nut and havent kept up with Winchester stuff.

If you're just looking for a complete factory rifle and not just an action for a build, I would suggest you take a look at the current model 70 Alaskan. It's crf, blued steel, and even has the "donut" on the barrel where the rear sight is mounted. The walnut stock is decent but not fancy, and the Monte Carlo with no cheek piece is reminiscent of the 50's and early 60's, I think.
Everything fits and works well, and the locking lug contact is superb. Mine in .300 Win Mag shoots ridiculously small groups. The action is smooth and will no doubt get better with use. Conventional wisdom has it that these new production guns may be the best made model 70's ever.... take a look.

YES, a new one, I have a 7x57 featherweight I bought 3 years ago, that is very well done.

get a new one -- they are fantastic and don't require extensive rework

I got nuthin more than jeffeoso.
I wouldn't hesitate to buy a new Winchester mod.-70

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
Thanks Eastcoaster. Has their quality been fairly consistent since then? Im pretty much a Mauser nut and havent kept up with Winchester stuff.

No quality was not consistent with the Classic,and that's the problem. I can't tell you which ones to avoid except in a very general sense and doubt anyone else can either.I've probablyowned 30 of them and can only state that the pre 64 rifles were generally more consistent in accuracy and function.

That said, I have had some good Classics but the best were those I had used the actions for custom rifles......which is cheating.


I've had 5 of the newer FN rifles and agree they are more consistent and generally better built/assembled than the Classic. The barrels are floated,the bedding appeared good, the extractor is steel instead of a MIM casting and the rifles (in 300 WSM) functioned far better than any NH 300 WSM I ever played with. All of those I shot were also very accurate with no tuning.

I think the newer rifles (current) are better overall but don't care for the new trigger vs the M70 original.So that leaves me with the pre 64 or the classic. Right now I am down to nothing but pre 64's and one custom built on the Classic action.

FN Herstal acquired the rights to Winchester a few years ago and built a new production facility for that purpose. I think it is in Oklahoma, but I could be wrong. The FN M70's I've shot have been excellent in every respect. The New Haven Classics (I have three) tend to be crap shoots.

Wstrnhuntr I just listed a pre 64 Winchester model 70 in the classifieds that might be of interest to you.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1078981/m/6971009322

The new M70's are assembled in Portugal. But the components of the rifle are made here from what I understand.

FN was assembling them in South Carolina until a year or two ago. Those seem pretty good. That same factory is where they make the military and law enforcement sniper rifles based on a M70 action, so they have some experience in house. I don't know what the split is between SC and Portugal, but I suspect the metalwork is mostly done in the US, and wood and finish fitting done in Portugal. I gave one a pretty good one over, and it's tight. I'd consider one for the right price. That pre-64 on the classifieds is a great price, and probably better than you could get new for the same money. If I wasn't already heavy with 30.06 there woulda been a check in the mail for it.

Id jump on Bolieps offer, that pre 64 is under priced and less than a new mod. 70 and comes with a scope..Ive owned several of the new ones, but I still like the pre 64 better than any rifle made with the exception of the Brno mod. 21,22...

Thanks for the replies guys. Appreciate the input, you've given me a lot great info. Some interesting offers on them pre-64's for sure. Both of them..

you can buy a clean P64 for $650 to $860 if you are willing to shop around a bit. They will be worth the search. I just bought a featherweight 30-06 for $850.

building on an Old Model 70 is never a mistake. Get somebody like DPCD, or Jim Kobe, or Duane Wiebe and you will never look back a year later and "I should have saved $500 and used a 700...".

I have pre64 and New Haven Classics and FN Classics. There's nostalgia in the true pre64 but I personally like the later rifles better. That said no reason to not own a pre64.

I have several New Haven Classics (around 92 onwards and made crf and pf simultaneously early on).

I'd say the FN QC is better. But I've got some great shooting NHavens even if a little rough.

The new FN's are very nice. They have several improvements over the earlier ones. IMO the new triggers are the best feeling ones ever on a m70. Good part is the price is pretty reasonable.

I have an early 1993 375H&H action SS classic, It wears a HS-Precision Sporter stock and is chambered in 375 Weatherby. The quality on this rifle is very very good.
I had a late 1999 built 338WM that the barrel wasn't in line with the action centreline, quite a bit of windage was needed to bore sight the rifle as it was. The action was true, it was the barrel shoulder that was out around .008".
As has been said, quality differed in these rifles.
The new FN made rifles are a huge step up in quality, I have 2 EW's, and they are very very well made.
I wouldn't hesitate recommending one of these.

Cheers.

The only problem with the MOA trigger is limited adjustment. Putting an Ernie the Gunsmith spring kit in is simple and solves the problem. The QC since FN took over is very good IMO.
The only reason to pick a P64 over the newest version would be appreciation.

I know I'm a terrible bore but the M70 was so badly degraded in 1964 that there has not been anywhere to go but "up" since then.Progress has been slow and spotty.

I was along on a cold and snowy hunt with two guys whose enclosed triggers and exposed safety mechanisms froze solid and two rifles would not discharge. The only one of our three that would was my old pre war 30/06 which was encrusted in ice....but the open trigger still functioned and the rifle went "bang" when asked.

I have seen these enclosed triggers fail from dirt or ice 2-3 other times. A left handed pal ( a match shooter and savy guy)asked me to help him find a left hand Classic. Seems the enclosed trigger of his rifle froze up under harsh conditions...on a hunt.

For these and other reasons the "new" rifles will never be the equal of the pre 64. I also prefer machined steel parts vs castings,magazine boxes suited specifically to the cartridge,feed rails machined to the receivers instead of stamped magazine boxes,and one piece bolts/handles vs the slip on and solder bolt handles of the Classics and FN rifles.

Small items but like many great things it's the accumulation of many small things that count.I also like that the old rifles were coddled, not allowed to leave the factory unless they were actually shot and checked for perfect function.You don't get that today.

I would not build this on anything made after 1964........

Damn Eastcoaster.. Gorgeous. Is that Turkish walnut?

Westrnhntr;Thanks!

It is European walnut but I cannot say if its Turkish, or Circassian or whatever...it is nice though

very nice stock. And rifle!

I have one of the newer CRF models, a Safari Express 458 WM that was rechambered in 458 Lott. I have not had it out below freezing, or on a truly crappy day, but so far, so good.

There aren't many rifles that are perfect out of the box but I think the new model 70 is very close.

The trigger can be changed.

I've heard of no problems but we don't hunt below freezing here very often.

Sound like a lube or grease got in there (or factory applied) and got thick. Whether that is a rifle or lubing fault is also a question but then the factory should address that.

Current production Winchester M70's are truly amongst the finest ever built.
The pre 64's do hold an attraction for nostalgic types but todays model 70 is more than likely a superior product.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
Current production Winchester M70's are truly amongst the finest ever built.
The pre 64's do hold an attraction for nostalgic types but todays model 70 is more than likely a superior product.

We can check that in 30-40 years. I won't concede it after only a few years of production and limited use.

We have to remember that most of the changes to the M70 were for the purpose of saving money in manufacture.....not to make it better.

There really is little comparison between todays M70 and the pre 64. If you want something closer to a pre 64, the Dakota would be closer

quote:

There really is little comparison between todays M70 and the pre 64. If you want something closer to a pre 64, the Dakota would be closer

Well I'm not going to have a running argument on the absurd but your above statement is a long long stretch, I'm guessing you've not handled a recent M70, maybe in the last 30 years. I own both modern production M70's and Pre 64's and I'll still say the Modern M70 is a fine tool. You are not fooling me by comparing pre 64's to Dakotas they are not comparable weapons in my eyes.
I have several Super Grades that are far superior to any production pre 64 I've ever laid hands or eyes on.
I guess we have differing opinions and tastes, don't get me wrong I like pre 64's but I don't think you should trash the modern M70 based on nostalgia or the hate you've dragged around since 1965 for Winchester, they are a great weapon.

quote:

Originally posted by Eastcoaster:
They returned to manufacture of the CRF action around 1993-94. Id look for something with 5 digit serial number made around that time frame.

The "new FN Winchester model 70" was introduced in 2006-2007. I have one of the South Carolina/American built ones. FN rifles are controlled round feed. Mine is a .270 supergrade. It is very slick, no sharp edges for feeding, holds 1 plus 4, and the best wood I ever had on a factory rifle. They do come with a factory recoil lung bedded. Not the best bedding, but better than none.

LHeym: I of course was referring to the M70 Classic. You are talking about the SC made rifles (BACO).

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:

quote:

There really is little comparison between todays M70 and the pre 64. If you want something closer to a pre 64, the Dakota would be closer

Well I'm not going to have a running argument on the absurd but your above statement is a long long stretch, I'm guessing you've not handled a recent M70, maybe in the last 30 years. I own both modern production M70's and Pre 64's and I'll still say the Modern M70 is a fine tool. You are not fooling me by comparing pre 64's to Dakotas they are not comparable weapons in my eyes.
I have several Super Grades that are far superior to any production pre 64 I've ever laid hands or eyes on.
I guess we have differing opinions and tastes, don't get me wrong I like pre 64's but I don't think you should trash the modern M70 based on nostalgia or the hate you've dragged around since 1965 for Winchester, they are a great weapon.

Ok. You say they are better. What makes them that way?

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:

quote:

There really is little comparison between todays M70 and the pre 64. If you want something closer to a pre 64, the Dakota would be closer

Well I'm not going to have a running argument on the absurd but your above statement is a long long stretch, I'm guessing you've not handled a recent M70, maybe in the last 30 years. I own both modern production M70's and Pre 64's and I'll still say the Modern M70 is a fine tool. You are not fooling me by comparing pre 64's to Dakotas they are not comparable weapons in my eyes.
I have several Super Grades that are far superior to any production pre 64 I've ever laid hands or eyes on.
I guess we have differing opinions and tastes, don't get me wrong I like pre 64's but I don't think you should trash the modern M70 based on nostalgia or the hate you've dragged around since 1965 for Winchester, they are a great weapon.

Snellstrom: you take this stuff personal...


I've had ample time to compare them. Guess I've owned and shot 60-70 pre 64 M70's and maybe 30 Classics. I have also built a good many custom rifles on the actions of both.

Along the way I came to refer too Classics as a "project in a box".....meaning there was no way to tell how how they'd perform in actual shooting and hunting when you got them. Oh..I could turn them into something decent with a fat check book and some work and a good smith. Usually I was better off tossing stock and barrel and using them for a build.

The laundry list of problems include: egged chambers, rifle that would not go into battery and jammed up, broken and bent MIM extractors, safeties that fell out. I even examined a 300 Win Mag that was missing a portion of its rifling....(!)

Indifferent and balky feeding, followers that changed design and material month to month ( it seemed).

Like I said.....you can turn them into something good...but out of the box? As a rifle to trust on any hunt? Never.


OTOH, the pre 64's required nothing in the way of metal work. Maybe some bedding and a ew stock ( mostly synthetic) to become a first class hunting rifle. This is because if you know anything about them you also know they're practically custom in the way they were assembled, coddled,and leaked. The barrels are easily as good as most production stuff today, function is generally flawless,and accuracy only gets better with a new stock.

Sorry I have only owned 5 of the FN rifles, All were accurate (but no better than a pre 64),all functioned well ( but no better than a pre 64)and they have an inferior trigger,plus a two piece bolt(thats another minus), unlike a pre 64.

As to the Dakota, have you owned any? I like them...but don't care for the bolt release. But they don't offer much over a well stocked pre 64 M70 in accuracy, function and performance.



Sorry you feel so offended. Appears you don't know rifles as well as you have led yourself to believe....

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:

quote:

There really is little comparison between todays M70 and the pre 64. If you want something closer to a pre 64, the Dakota would be closer

Well I'm not going to have a running argument on the absurd but your above statement is a long long stretch, I'm guessing you've not handled a recent M70, maybe in the last 30 years. I own both modern production M70's and Pre 64's and I'll still say the Modern M70 is a fine tool. You are not fooling me by comparing pre 64's to Dakotas they are not comparable weapons in my eyes.
I have several Super Grades that are far superior to any production pre 64 I've ever laid hands or eyes on.
I guess we have differing opinions and tastes, don't get me wrong I like pre 64's but I don't think you should trash the modern M70 based on nostalgia or the hate you've dragged around since 1965 for Winchester, they are a great weapon.

Ok. You say they are better. What makes them that way?

He has no idea....

Eastcoaster I have more than an idea
Of the M70's I own, (pre 64 and current models)
the new models have better wood, better wood to metal fit, better accuracy out of the box and a better stock design (layout appearance etc).
I'm not taking this personal either but we all have an opinion and yours is no better than mine, but if you make a ridiculous statement I will call you on it.

Eastcoaster you are off your meds if you claim the Dakotas are an equal comparison to the pre 64's. Stop before you flap your gums and think about how ridiculous your statement is....

I think the OP's question has been answered, now you are just trying to force your opinion on others and not everyone is buying it, we get it you are hung up on pre64's no harm no foul, I'm not hung up on the old ones. Like I said I have both.

To be clear when referring to a "new" M70, I'm thinking FN. How are they better? How about CNC machining to closer tolerances so they don't HAVE to be hand fit in order to function? How about modern metallurgy? Believe it or not there have been advances in steel making in the last 50 years.
The P64's are not magic, neither are the FN's. They are all just rifles. The post 64's were not that bad, yeah they were heavy and ugly but they shot good, at least mine did.
To each his own but Winchester did not cease to exist in 1964, contrary to the beliefs of some.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
Eastcoaster I have more than an idea
Of the M70's I own, (pre 64 and current models)
the new models have better wood, better wood to metal fit, better accuracy out of the box and a better stock design (layout appearance etc).
I'm not taking this personal either but we all have an opinion and yours is no better than mine, but if you make a ridiculous statement I will call you on it.

Eastcoaster you are off your meds if you claim the Dakotas are an equal comparison to the pre 64's. Stop before you flap your gums and think about how ridiculous your statement is....

Hope you're nicer in person than on the Internet? pretty insulting.....anyway.

How would you know how the wood to metal fit is better on an FN than a pre 64, "out of the box"? Do you own any pre 64's that are NIB?

If a factory stock is the limits of your exposure, you know less than I thought. LOL! Stocks come and go based on style, and like rifle barrels are replaceable to suit your taste. Big deal.

Take a look at the picture I posted above. That's what a rifle stock should look like.

The stocks on pre 64's Classics, and the new FN are functional, even if tasteless,clunky, and uninspirational. I toss them ALL in the trash...pre 64, Classic. I'd toss an FN stock and replace it too, but don't consider the trigger worthy of building a custom rifle.

The pre 64 is a semi custom rifle like a Dakota.That's the way they were made, with lots of hands on coddling, unlike FN's and Classics.I will admit, the FN is better assembled than most Classics.

The only thing on a Dakota "better" than a pre 64 is the stock;and the breaching is more Mauser like than any M70..but, you know that, Im sure. Having owned a Dakota? Right?


If you like:

A factory rifle with an indifferent,clunky stock.

A two piece bolt with the handle sweated in place(that's REALLY GOOD!)

Cast cocking piece and cast safety instead of machined steel.

One size fits all magazine boxes stamped out of sheet metal that dents under heavy recall from big rifles. Pre 64 boxes were cartridge specific. Check it out.

Feed rails bent into lips on the sheet metal mag boxes, instead of being machined into the receiver itself.

A tin can trigger with little springs and levers in a sheet metal container that will NEVER withstand the abuse of the original M70 trigger, Far more reliable than any enclosed trigger..

An outsourced extractor ( at least the FN is steel and not that MIM used in the Classic.They bend and break and often are so ill fitted the cartridges fall off the bolt face.

The entire receiver of a pre 64 is case hardened , not just the camming surfaces.

And, of course you enjoy paying full price for a rifle that's worth half as soon as you walk out the door (sucker).

Then, I guess the FN is your rifle, and your taste in rifles is skin deep only.Ive gotten as detailed as I can. Go do some more research. Your info is based on assumption and innuendo and not facts

Truth is, there has not been a single "improvement" to the Model 70 since 1964 that served any useful purpose other than to make the rifle cheaper to produce. If you know of one please name it. You won't because it does not exist.

Personally I think the FN is a decent rifle. I'd never hunt BG with one. I bought mine to play with and dispose of after the amusement. I'd never hunt with one....

I am not interested in swaying anyone,,,least of all "you". I know when I'm talking to someone who knows what they are talking about when it comes to M70's....you ain't it.. Just want to get the facts straight and you have failed to tell me in what way the FN is superior.

It's just another mass produced, second rate BG rifle. Absolutely nothing special.

BTW....ever owned a Dakota? Tell me all about it? I'd like to hear how that's better than a pre 64 , too.....laffin. See picture above...

posted 13 August 2016 22:26

Here is the OP's original question:
"I know they went to push feed a long time ago and then came back to CRF in recent years. But I am not sure when. I would like something as close as possible to the pre-64 "riflemans rifle" without paying the absurd pre-64 luxury tax and I have no idea as to the quality of their product today. Any suggestions as to which circa M-70's might also be decent actions? "

I think you are well off the reservation Eastcoaster. Now you are backsliding on your argument and talking about custom built rifles based on pre 64's not production rifles. That's okay just keep moving the goal posts and you are sure to win an argument. I'm pretty well done with you, you are an insulting sort who can't stick to the facts. I typically don't deal well with that east coast Jersey attitude and yours is showing.
Have a great evening I've learned enough about you to know that despite your experience your goal is not to share knowledge and help others but merely to convince all to "your way" and I ain't buying it sorry.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
posted 13 August 2016 22:26

Here is the OP's original question:
"I know they went to push feed a long time ago and then came back to CRF in recent years. But I am not sure when. I would like something as close as possible to the pre-64 "riflemans rifle" without paying the absurd pre-64 luxury tax and I have no idea as to the quality of their product today. Any suggestions as to which circa M-70's might also be decent actions? "

I think you are well off the reservation Eastcoaster. Now you are backsliding on your argument and talking about custom built rifles based on pre 64's not production rifles. That's okay just keep moving the goal posts and you are sure to win an argument. I'm pretty well done with you, you are an insulting sort who can't stick to the facts. I typically don't deal well with that east coast Jersey attitude and yours is showing.
Have a great evening I've learned enough about you to know that despite your experience your goal is not to share knowledge and help others but merely to convince all to "your way" and I ain't buying it sorry.

The truth is the truth. If that offends you there isn't much anyone can do about it.

Chuck
If I were to build a full blown custom rifle on a M70 action I would use a pre 64 action for the job because if I had to sell it there are people out there that are nuts for pre 64's and resale value would be improved,
But (there is always a big but)that wasn't the OP's question now was it>?
He asked about current and POST 64 production rifles and their quality......
I have no argument with you Chuck so I'm not sure why your hackles are up.
I'll stand by my answer to the OP I think current production M70's are the best they've ever been and I advise that he buy one.
He never asked which action to buy to do a full blown custom, that would be another topic for discussion.