quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by Eastcoaster:
They returned to manufacture of the CRF action around 1993-94. Id look for something with 5 digit serial number made around that time frame.

The "new FN Winchester model 70" was introduced in 2006-2007. I have one of the South Carolina/American built ones. FN rifles are controlled round feed. Mine is a .270 supergrade. It is very slick, no sharp edges for feeding, holds 1 plus 4, and the best wood I ever had on a factory rifle. They do come with a factory recoil lung bedded. Not the best bedding, but better than none.

Sir: I appolgize for not responding sooner. I just saw this. My delay is not out of disrespect. I realize you were referring to the USRA's Classic.I took the OP as asking about the current "wichester". Everyone hunt well.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
Current production Winchester M70's are truly amongst the finest ever built.
The pre 64's do hold an attraction for nostalgic types but todays model 70 is more than likely a superior product.

Yep, I would rather have a new one, better steel, workmanship equal and I can buy it new instead of used.

FWIW, Mark Penrod told me a few years ago he preferred to build off of Classics and not the FN guns.

Winchester wanted to cut production time and cost, especially to compete with the Remington Push Feed new model. In 1963 they ceased the old production CF action and went to the Model 70 PF. They were accurate but a whole different animal. Around 1989-1990 they began to produce the CRF only out of the Custom shop. In 1993-1994 they began to produce the Classic CRF model in their regular production and even for a few years a combination CRF/PF models.
When Win. decided to close shop in 2006, for several reasons, some of the production records disappeared in the process. Especially the Custom shop provenance.
Pre 1963 production was outstanding, where a lot of individual pride in worksmanship was the norm.
The main change in the newer Classic is:

The addition of the vent holes at the bottom of the bolt similar to a Mauser but not in dimension. It was to route the escaping gas from a ruptured case.
Also The PRE stock had excessive drop at heel to accomodate open sight usage, which was the norm during that era. I personally like them.

I believe the David Miller Company of Tucson AZ. helped Win. redesign the older CRF action/rifle for new production. Many rifleman were demanding it.
Hence the port holes in the bolt. straighter and trimmer stock. Light weight was becoming the fad and newer generation could not carry the 9-10lb. rifle up the mountain.

Win. machinery was at the end of it's life. Tolerances went by the wayside and quality was a hit and miss. Actually more of a miss and relied on reputation which went also and was the reason for companies such as Dakota to be in existence.
Rifles from the Custom Shop and SuperGrades were excellent and worth owning.
2006 FN SC are produced with new machinery and quality is more consistent. Their newer trigger touted as an improvement is marketing hype. FN in more vested in military contracts and not with civilian production. We are not priority. In ten years, they have yet to invest in craftsmen worthy of producing or opening a custom shop. Nor do they produce left hand rifles as did the New Haven plant. Technology got us to the moon eons ago but the bean counters think it's too technical and not worthy of the effort. They will never see a dime of my money.
If you want a CRF American made rifle at a reasonable price. Get a Montana, if you want cheaper get a Ruger.
I have had 4 Dakota M76's and the older ones from Don Allen and Pete Griessel were excellent and still are. They are smooth and not clunky. Fit and finish are exceptional. My only gripe and pertains only to me and that is the stock fit.

If you really want a CRF action, why get a copy, get the original. A quality Mauser 98.

MLFguns has more knowledge than I do on the subject, however, I own 6 of the FN version of the model 70. They all have shot less than 1" MOA out of the box, the triggers are excellent and they have functioned flawlessly. I got rid of a couple of the "pre 64" model 70's as they are not as well built nor as accurate as the new ones. I know that is blasphemy but I have not love for the older guns (over 50 years old is the youngest!).

I realize there is a lot of nostalgia and love for old guns such as the Model 70, but I feel it is unwarranted given the quality you get today.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
get a new one -- they are fantastic and don't require extensive rework

AMEN!!!! I have 6 and they all shoot less than 1 MOA out of the box, great triggers too.

I have had maybe better luck than some but i have five model 70 classics and in contrast to what some people say, they range from very good to excellent. I also have pre 64s a push feed, one FN made in south carolina and one FN married made in US a assembled in portugal. I like the classics real well and the Fns even better but i am concerned about the trigger. They are all very good.I guess what I'm saying is pick a gun you like, chances are it will be very good no matter which era.

Having owned a few M70s I'd answer the OP's question like this. Find a good pre '64 in the caliber you want/need and buy it. It will be the best buy over the long haul both in resale value and overall satisfaction/function.
My son has 2 of the newest versions, a Super Grade 270 plus a 300Win mag EW version. Both very nice rifles, but neither one is easy to coax accuracy from, being very picky about bullets and powders. I'd call them one trick ponies! They are of much better overall quality than the Classics or SGs from the '90s but after many range sessions I've seen what they are capable of, straight out of the box. Maybe he got 2 bad ones, maybe not but I won't be spending any money to try another one! Any of my pre '64s will print tighter groups on a consistent basis and don't seem to care what bullet I choose to load. None but my 375 have been glass bedded but several have had the trigger worked over. I'm sure others may have different experiences or opinions, and that's fine by me. After collecting, shooting and hunting with anything M70 for almost 50yrs there is no question in my mind.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
FWIW, Mark Penrod told me a few years ago he preferred to build off of Classics and not the FN guns.

Penrod, Simillion and Echols all like to build off the Classic action. I would not interpret this to mean the Classic, as it comes from the factory, is a "better" rifle. These guys do so much work to a Classic it bears no resemblance to what it was.It just provides them more flexibility for action length and the receivers are somewhat more square, probably because they were not heat treated like a pre 64 M70 was.

In general the assembly of the Classic was only what I'd call "fair'. I would NEVER trust one for a dangerous game hunt without having someone like Darcy or Simillion go over it one end to the other for function.At a minimum you will want to ditch the MIM extractor,and function may be less than flawless.



Of course we all know a pre 64 does not shoot. :bsflzg:


Just add a good stock and bedding job; don't touch the metal, and accuracy will be great, function flawless.They were really bench made rifles; not mass produced from stamped parts and castings.

Wow that's impressive....
Here is a picture of how my crappy inferior pushfeed shoots, absolute junk.

:bsflzg:


The PF was a POS....

There is a reason for the fanaticism of the old pre 64, it became such the hard way, it earned it in the field, at the bench and every other place it was used. It was judged by a million Americans, it became Americas rifle, and it will always be so..It wasn't nostalgia, it was quality..

I like them both, the new and the old, but push come to shove the pre 64 or better yet the pre war mod. 70 is my choice, they get so smooth over a couple of ions... I think the pre 64 trigger is the best hunting trigger ever. I even use a high dollar mod. 70 knockoff on my Mausers..after all the mod. 70 pre 64 is the rifle by which all others are judged..

To each his own, that's why they make Fords and Chevys.. There is no reason to down grade either, both are good rifles for the job at hand and that's punching holes in big game.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
I know they went to push feed a long time ago and then came back to CRF in recent years. But I am not sure when. I would like something as close as possible to the pre-64 "riflemans rifle" without paying the absurd pre-64 luxury tax and I have no idea as to the quality of their product today. Any suggestions as to which circa M-70's might also be decent actions?

Above was the OP's post, I think it was answered quite well.
Someone should start a "new" post about what a great rifle you can custom build from a pre 64 action.
By the way you don't have to have a pre 64 to build a custom or shoot tiny groups or have a reliable rifle the new ones do it just fine, I have a pile of Supergrades and sporters that shoot just the way they came from the factory in sub MOA and in several cases .5", several do it with factory ammo.

I bought a Classic M70 as soon as I heard they were making them back in 1994. The only function issue I had is that the bolt would bind a bit just before closing if worked very slowly. If it was worked vigorously, it functioned fine. This never happened in the field, only at the range, and I would retract the bolt, and it would then seat the round without an issue. This was when it was new. Since then, I have noticed no problems. My rifle was a 7mm mag with a 26 inch barrel, and it shot 1 inch to 1.5 inches at 100 yards with Federal 160 gr Nosler Partitions. Not target rifle quality, but more than enough to hunt with. I put a laminated stock on it last year, and brought it to Africa. It is now my go to rifle, though I am seriously thinking of buying a brand new M70 in 7mm08.

To add a bit to my last post, I went to Kittery Trading Post today, and handled a number of used rifles with Mauser actions. I handled CZ rifles, Kimbers, Ruger Hawkeyes, and a couple of FN mausers, and none could compare in the feel and smoothness of the Model 70. I like what I like, and you may feel differently. You may certainly find another brand that shoots smaller groups on the range, and if that makes you happy go for it. I have handled the newest 70's, and they all have had that smooth handling that is a trademark of the 70. They aren't cheap, but you get what you pay for.

They only made 581 thousand pre 64s, so that is all the people who enjoyed a new one. Not a million.
I remember well, 1964 and the redesign of all the Winchesters, the 70, 94 and 12. It was a sad year but the fact is/was that these guns were all designed to be made by cheap labor doing a lot of hand fitting, and by 1963, Winchester was losing money on them all. Only when CNC machines came in could they be made profitably again.

I don't see that one of the original questions has been answered: when did Winchester change production from push feed to CRF. the answer is: they made both for a few years. this followed several years when they made push feed only with claims that they would "never" return to CRF; then there were a year or two where push feed was the norm and a few CRFs were made as special production, followed by years with both as production guns. Apparently Winchester finally figured it out and discontinued the push feed= unfortunately it was too late to correct the companies financial page.