Vapo,
Goodonya Mate.
Should I ever find my self in Nebraska I'll stop by and take you up on the offer.

Asti,

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions; I appreciate it very much...Rusty.

It's a legitamate question, the answers are not..

Bottom line is from a hunting or practical standpoint or any other dicipline, the two are equal in every way..Its like comparing Vanilla ice cream to Vanilla icecream. Both are excellent cartridges...

Guess I better go hide for awhile, but I keep a getaway horse tied outside at all times.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:
Take two identical 180-grain bullets and load them to their maximum MV in both calibers. Next, shoot identical bull elk in the exact same spot with the two calibers. Then perform an autopsy of each dead elk, in which you give a detailed examination to the wounds made by the two bullets.

I guarantee you will NOT be able to tell which caliber made which wound based on the examination of the wound alone!

I find a lot of beleivabilty in what you say.

Now lets take identical 220 gr. hand loadeds in 06 and .308.both are loaded to the same max. pressure level only today the game is grizz. Which one would you choose ElD if those were the only 2 choices? No now. roger

You have to use handloads here, because ther ain't no 220-grain .308 factory load. But I have loaded mine to 2350 FPS with a 220 grain bullet-using 48 grains of N205 (or 48 gr of MRP). Now handloaded, the '06 can top 2600 FPS with the 220, so of course you have to give credit where it is due. BUT, I am not sure if there'd be much difference in the wound channels caused by identical 220-grainers either, with only 200 FPS difference. And the FACTORY '06 220-grainer is moving 2400 FPS at the muzzle, only 50 FPS better than I can load a 22" .308 with the same bullets.

Again, I say: This controversy makes even less sense than the .270 vs .30/'06 debate which has been going on since 1926..........


IF I were going after any of the really big bears, I am not sure I'd opt for a .30 caliber of ANY sort. More likely a .375 or 416!

quote:

I've never gotten that thinking... the 30-06 runs a strong 150+ fps with ALL bullet weights over the 308. I've handloaded for five 30-06's and six 308's so my opinion isn't pulled out of thin air.

No argument here. The velocity difference is there, all right! But the terminal performancee in flesh is so similar, that I believe that 150 FPS difference in MV will not produce a recognizble difference in the wound size or shape. In fact due to the characteristics of the wounds caused by slower bullets with greater sectional density (longer, more narrow, smaller in diameter holes, it might very well prove even more difficult to distinguish a .308 wound from a 220 grain bullet at 2300 FPS and one made by an identical 220-grain bullet fired from a .30/'06 than it would with lighter, faster slugs!

When it comes to penetration, I believe both would produce penetration that would prove more than adequate if shooting a 4-diameter non-expanding bullet in either round. I remember Jack O'Connor reporting getting complete perforation on a grizzly bear, shooting 180-grain bullets from a .30/'06. He saw the bullets kicking up sand on the far side of the bear after going thru the bear. No 220 needed!!

Late in his life, the great elephant poacher W.D.M. Bell stated that he thought the new (at that time) .308 Winchester round, firing a 4-diameter solid bullet, might prove to be the best elephant killer of all for the method he used in the early days, when he killed over 800 with a 7X57mm Mauser (aka ".275 Rigby").

The reasons Bell gave for this were: the .308 would fire a 4-diameter solid (220-grain) bullet at 2300 FPS (which he considered the optimum velocity for going thru elephants' heads!!), could be used in a short-stroke bolt action for fast, sure repeat shots, and the .308" bullet resisted bending in heavy bone better than 4-diameter .284" (175-grain) or .264" 4-diameter bullets (.256 Mannlicher).

This idea was contained in an article by Bell that was published in the American Rifleman some time in the early 1950's.

Is there anything that Maryann can do that Ginger can't?
Take your pick, they will both work as well as the 7X57

I have had both. Both are fine. I can't tell much difference in them in "on-game performance". I like the .308 Win for its shootability. It is just a good accurate cartridge that always gets the job done about right and is shooter friendly. Most .30-06's I have shot, kick like a .300 WM. Just not as fun a gun to carry and shoot all the time. If I was not it a "dangerous" situation and had time to pick my shot, I would shoot about anything with my .308 Winchester with good bullets. Just my humble opinion. The .308 Win is a jack of all trades master of none.

Alberta K-nook,
Either one would work as well as the other, in fact you would get a bit better performance with the ever so slightly slower .308, better penetration and most bullets perform better when slowed down a tad, not that it would make any difference at all in this case.

So put me in the bush with either one and I will come out smiling or chewed to pieces!

El deguello,
WdmBells words are of interest, and of true substance no boubt.

[QUOTE... The .308 Win is a jack of all trades master of none.[/QUOTE]

same has often been said of 375H&H and 9.3x62, but the 9.3 like 308win is usually a nicer rifle to carry and fire.

Reading an article on recent test of a tactical308win stumpy 16"bl,
had 168gn loads from Blkhills/Rem/Fed/Win, clocking between 2540-2590fps....175hp clocking around 2540fps(IIRC).

I recall an article some yrs ago testing a 300WeathMag...they loaded 165fs around 3100fps and proceeded to drop wild horses at a little under 500yds.
Winchester site shows 300win165Fs@3120mv....2100v/1620e(400yd)..1885v/1300e(500yd).

You guys are still pissing about this? Sheesh get a life!



Isn't it funny how 150 fps difference makes the 30.06 vastly superior to the 308 but a 150 fps increase over the 375H&H is insignificant if it is done by a 375 Ruger?

quote:

Originally posted by TerryR:
Is there anything that Maryann can do that Ginger can't?
Take your pick, they will both work as well as the 7X57

Well, maybe.......

El Deguello,

Isn't thet the name of the music that Santa Anna played for the men in the Alamo? Something about "take no prisoners"?

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty Hook:
No average distance for the first hit was given in the data I read.

As for the bigger is always better school, here is the info for the 338 Wm, 358NM, the 9.3s, the 375 H&H, 416 Taylor, 458 WM and the 460 WBY:

338 WM..111 moose killed, 1.5 rounds required, 31 meters traveled until down.

358NM..192 moose killed, 1.2 rounds required on average, 36 meters traveled.

9.3 x 62..306 moose killed, 1.4 rounds required, traveled 36 meters.

9.3 x 64..5 moose killed, 1.6 rounds required, distance traveled on average 50 meters.

9.3 x 74..7 moose killed, 1.2 rounds required, 32 meters traveled.

375 H&H..265 moose killed, 1.4 rounds required, distance traveled 30 meters on average.

416 Taylor..17 moose killed, 1.3 rounds required, 27 meters traveled.

458 WM..18 moose killed, 1.3 rounds required, 18 meters traveled.

460 WBY..3 moose killed, 1.3 rounds required, 70 meters traveled.

As can be seen, bigger and faster didn't kill significantly better. Dogs are required to track and find wounded game, so almost no game is lost. Before a hunter can get a tag, he has to demonstrate an acceptable degree of accuracy on a running moose target to a specified range. So the firearms proficiency for Swedish hunters on average is probably better than it is for American hunters. Swedish citizens are limited to owning a total of 5 fire arms.

And for the 270 and 7MM Remington magnum fans that feel they have been left out, here is your data:

270 W.. 7 moose killed, 1.4 rounds required, average distance traveled 64 meters.

7MM RM.. 75 moose killed, 1.4 rounds required, 47 meters traveled...Rusty.

I question the use of moose to evaluate a cartridge. Reason being that most of the time, a moose will walk off a ways before dropping from a well-placed bullet, regadless of what the bullet is or what cartidge it was launched from. I except the humongous African cartridges of .500 up to 2-bore, as there is not enough data concerning the use of such things on moose to be meaningful......

My old Canadian hunting buddy used to shoot a moose for meat every fall-with his pump-action .30 Remington. Usually, one shot, a 45-minute smoking break after the shot, and usually no more than a 50-yard walk to the dead moose..... But ALWAYS the walk to get to where it fell.

quote:

I also suggest to you that a .44 Mag can sometimes be almost worse than nothing in the situation described. Except with some really good luck, the odds are that sometimes it may just throughly piss the grizz off when you cause him/her some pain with it but don't down them immediately.

I agree! My counsel would be: NEVER shoot a big brown or grizzly bear with a handgun of ANY caliber, unless:

A. There is no other option to try to save your life; or, B. you are actually hunting bear with your handgun, AND ARE BACKED UP BY A PROFESSIONAL HUNTER who is carrying a big stopping rifle!

quote:

Incidentally, I spent years in the Army too (25th Infantry, "Tropic Lightning" Division mostly), and I cannot recommend most DI's or small arms people in the Army as a good source for accurate information about either internal or external ballistics, even for service cartridges. There are some truly knowledgeable ones, but no more than at the typical civilian rifle range, was my experience.

I concur with this statement also. For example, I once heard the Army Sergeant who was the sponsor of a high-school rifle team insist that the "clicks" on the micrometer rear sight of a Martini .22 caliber target rifle would produce a 1" change in point of impact at 50 feet. He was no doubt thinking of the M1 and 100 yards! When I told him that it would take more like 24 of those .25 MOA clicks to move the POI 1" at 50', he about had apoplexy....

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
What makes a 308 Win different from the 30-06 Spr is essentially the twist rate, which is 12-inch vs 10-inch. That means the that the 308 should stop around 165/168 gr bullet weight vs 220 gr for the 30-06, as the faster twist rate can stabilize a longer & heavier bullet. And this is basically why in practice their application differ. Needless to say then that momentum & energy values will differ. Due to the bigger case of the 30-06, it is then able to deliver more velocity per bullet mass.

Warrior

It is true that the .308 with a 1/12 twist will not stabilize a spitzer boattail 220=-grain bullet very well. But it WILL stabilize a 220-grain flstbase round nose. I proved that to my satisfaction by shooting both Hornady and Sierras of this configuration from my pre-64 Win. M70 Feaherweight using 48 grains of N205, or Norma MRP. And, contary to popular rumor that such a load has too littel expansion for shooting deer, I found that it was a real killer on whitetils up to 150 yards, producing a number of one-shot drop-on-the-spot kills.

Another thing many people misconstrue. Lower velocity does NOT mean less penetration. Yes, "energy" increases as the square of the velocity, but so does friction, both as the bullet moves through the air and as it moves through any other medium-including bone and flesh. In addition, an expanding bullet expands MORE the faster it goes. This effect reduces sectional density, and hence penetration. This efect is added to any drop in penetration caused by velocity increase alone, even with SOLIDS! I bet that a specific 220-grain softpoint round-nose bullet striking at 2300 FPS will penetrate deeper in a bear than the same bullet striking 300 FPS faster. Same for a solid of the same weight!

Are we still bitching about which is better ?.

I surrendered Albert !. I still say comparing the two is useless , a 150 FPS isn't enough to worry about .

Animal is DEAD DEAD DEAD Either way !.

For all practical purposes their equal up to a 180 grain projectile . I still believe that .

In order to determine which delivers a more effective wound channel , some body shoot some gel . I don't feel the need personally , I've killed animals with both and never have seen a difference !. Bang , start to run , plop drop stagger Done !.

Given all other things being equal , Shot placement is more critical for myself than an extra 150 FPS velocity !.

Then again what do I know !. I shoot once so I don't have to track ! I also practice it day in and day out !.

I prefer ambush shooting I'm not as young as I once was . I will shoot under 500 yd and will not drop the animals on the down side of a mountain ravine that's not accessible by vehicles or horses . Been there done that plenty of times . I may not know it all but sure as hell know better now !.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.K:
Are we still bitching about which is better ?.:

NO! not at all. The premise was to note advantages of one to the other in light of modern bullet construction. The bullet construction can work in favor of both but the truth is the usefull case capacity in the 06 is greater than that of the.308. advantage 06.

Because of this ANY bullet can be delivered out of the 06 at a hiher velocity and energy level than the .308.Advantage 06.

With any bullet the 06 has a flatter trajectory than the .308 and can reach out a bit farther . Advantage 06.

Case in point; "The so-what? I can do anything with my .308 than anyone can do with a 30-06" was never an issue. And really who cares? Some are making this a justiication for pesonal preference based on subjectivity for a comparative marginal performer. NOTE THE WORD COMPARATIVE.

What I gathered from the original post was a quest for evidence in the form of phisical properties,laws and comparative numbers with no emotional flavoring. Not exactly what we've been getting.Oh well! Back to de roger another observation

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:
... I bet that a specific 220-grain softpoint round-nose bullet striking at 2300 FPS will penetrate deeper in a bear than the same bullet striking 300 FPS faster. Same for a solid of the same weight!

I believe I will take that bet. While I understand your point regarding the softpoint roundnose 'opening' more quickly at higher velocity and therefore ultimately retarding penetration compared to the slower round, this is just plain wrong with regard to the solids. What mechanism could possibly cause the faster solid to penetrate less than the slow one, all other things (i.e. other than the velocity) being equal. Sure, the faster solid is going to lose velocity more quickly than the slower one, but the point is that it's going faster to begin with. The rate that the solid loses velocity will be proportional to it's current velocity at any point in time, not it's initial impact velocity. Therefore, the faster bullet will eventually slow down to the velocity of the slower solid. However, at that point it will be losing velocity at the same rate, but it will already have penetrated some distance. So it will maintain it's 'lead' and end up penetrating further - assuming that both bullets don't impact some material that neither can penetrate, which stops them both there.

NorthFork states its pills typically reach max. mushroom dia, at 2100fps impact velocity, so would not a pill striking at 2600fps have potential to penetrate further than one at 2300fps impact vel.? if not,then please explain what happens to that extra momentum?
(That is not to say that .308win does not have sufficient penertation at fair& reasonable range)

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
NorthFork states its pills typically reach max. mushroom dia, at 2100fps impact velocity, so would not a pill striking at 2600fps have potential to penetrate further than one at 2300fps impact vel.? if not,then please explain what happens to that extra momentum?
(That is not to say that .308win does not have sufficient penertation at fair& reasonable range)

Hey woodjack

Penetration often decreases with increased velocity as shown by these 4 charts from rathcoombe research






You can notice that with the premium bullets the penetration is almost the same depth and does not decrease much with increased velocity.

However, I do consider the 30-06 to be a step up from the 308 just like the 7 mag is a step up from the 280 just like the 300 is a step up from the 30-06 ya-da ya-da ya-da ad infinitum. I generally shoot the 200 gr Accubond out of the 30-06 at 2700 fps and I do not think the 308 would do that. I'm sure the 308 would shoot the 150 or 165 gr bullets at a comparable speed to the 30-06 (or almost) but I don't care for light/low sectional density bullets so it's the 06 for me.

Thank You ( Woods ) !. Point is well taken !.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

You can take your "magic" bullets and put them where the sun don't shine. If I get in a serious situation, I want the heaviest piece of metal I can get, traveling at the highest velocity possible. That snake oil saleman that said "oh hell yes, that 120gr bullet will do anything that 180gr bullet will do" ain't gonna be around to get his ass chewed up.
Like the man said, get an animal involved that can take you head off and stuff it up your ass and then decide which one you want. And what size bullet.

WooDs,
thanks for the link, I will do an indepth read of it soon.
But in the meantime, can you give a more straight forward explanation based on the following simplyfied example:

A NorthFork Bullet reaches max expansion diameter at 2100fps impact velocity.
Identical bullets are fired into a block of ballistic gelatin or wet pack at different impact velocities ie; 2100,2200,2300,2400fps.That covers the 300fps difference mentioned earlier. We can use the 200gn.30calNF as example.,cause it shows that weight retention from 2100-2400 remains much unchanged.
Now taking into account that:
1./each projectile is identical,
2./ weight retention remains constant through given velocity range.
3./projectile mushroom dia. remains constant from 2100-2400,
4./ Ballistic gelatin/wetpack medium remains constant in density/structure.

Q./?
With those stated constants, why would the bullets travelling at the higher velocities/higher momentums (with same expanded dia.and retained weight as the slower projectiles) not penetrate further than the slower projectiles?

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
But in the meantime, can you give a more straight forward explanation based on the following simplyfied example:

A NorthFork Bullet reaches max expansion diameter at 2100fps impact velocity.
Identical bullets are fired into a block of ballistic gelatin or wet pack at different impact velocities ie; 2100,2200,2300,2400fps.That covers the 300fps difference mentioned earlier. We can use the 200gn.30calNF as example.,cause it shows that weight retention from 2100-2400 remains much unchanged.
Now taking into account that:
1./each projectile is identical,
2./ weight retention remains constant through given velocity range.
3./projectile mushroom dia. remains constant from 2100-2400,
4./ Ballistic gelatin/wetpack medium remains constant in density/structure.

Q./?
With those stated constants, why would the bullets travelling at the higher velocities/higher momentums (with same expanded dia.and retained weight as the slower projectiles) not penetrate further than the slower projectiles?

WoodJack

I would say that your example is analogous to the Swift A Frame in the last chart.

In your link to NF it appears to me that the bullet may not be reaching full expansion until the 2600 fps photo. At 2100 fps the diameter of expansion may be as large as it ever gets but there are gaps in the circumference of the mushroom that would mean that it has less surface area than the mushroom at 2600 fps. Less surface area of the expanded meplat will lead to greater penetration.

Also in your question you limited the discussion to 2100 fps to 2400 fps. At those velocities the penetration should be fairly constant like the A Frame because even though there is an incremental increase in velocity to increase penetration there is a corresponding incremental increase in mushroom surface area to impede penetration.

From 2400 fps to 2600 fps I would posit that the mushroom surface area and velocity have reached an offsetting point where the maximum penetration is achieved.

What is puzzling to me is the decrease in penetration at the higher velocities. It would seem that the only viable explanation would be that the bullet is losing weight upon impact and that would impede penetration. There may be other factors such as the properties of liquids and the increase in resistance with increased force (the reason you die from jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge but have a nice swim when jumping from a lower height into a swimming hole).

I do believe that the man did do a test and honestly reported his results so until someone can convince me with another test that shows differently, then I will take his results as the best I have seen so far. However, I will certainly listen to any other theories, examples and explanations and continue to form my own opinions.

What do you think?

IMO these two family of cartridges are the most practical of all.
Just look at what has come from both, do we really need any more?



Just recently I acquired a beautiful little 7mm-08Rem, my my I must say I've really come to luv this round.