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This may not be the appropriate place for this controversial viewpoint. If it belongs domewhere else, I hope the moderators will move it to that place. What is the object of hunting dangerous game? I always thought it was to pit one's own skill and bravery against an animal which under ALL the circumstances of the hunt has a very real chance of killing the hunter if he does not shoot with self control and real skill in whatever instance he encounters the animal(s). I never have believed it to be to proove who cxan carry and fire the biggest cartridges, or any rifle which leaves the DG with no real chance of winning the contest in most circumstances. If the hunt is not frought with the real danger of death to the hunter, why not just hunt table fare such as dik-dik or rabbits? I one wants to encounter no REAL danger from the animals hunted, why stop with a .500 Jeffrey, or a .475 M'bogo Smasher? Hell, why not use a predator drone? Then even if the animal manages to straggle away gravely wounded but still dangerous, the hunter will have no risk to his own hide. I'm not saying everyone should use .22 Hornets to hunt lion or leopard or Buff or other thin-skinned DG.... But there certainly is plenty of killing effect on such game with a properly managed .318 WR, .338 Win Mag, or 9.3x62. Is it really necessary to use cartridges which render the hunt only minimally dangerous, if at all? You obviously know my view from the phrasing of the question.... My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | ||
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First of all, there are laws regarding which caliber you can use. Even if one wanted to use something lighter which could probably work, they couldn't, unless it is greater than .375. Secondly, as hunters, we have a responsibility to put down the animal without any undue suffering. Can you honestly say that a .318 WR can kill a buff or a ele at different angles? Even with large caliber rifles, things can and do happen; misfires, jams, bad shots. DG hunting is hardly free from its mishaps, See the link below. Check out the link below: http://www.americanhunter.org/...ng-really-dangerous/ I guess if you really want to live life on the edge, you could fly up to Alaska during the salmon run and cover yourself in fish guts (don't forget to stuff your pockets). Now that you are well equipped to attract your quarry, you should outfit yourself with something appropriate, perhaps a 22-250. Just to make things interesting don't bother to sight in, that might make things unfair (for the bear, not you). There you go, true DG hunting. "though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." ---Thomas Jefferson | |||
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AC I disagree with the premiss of the question. I hunted Cape Buffalo, Elephant and Lion because I wanted to and wanted the trophies, just like an elk moose or bear, not because they were"dangerous". I feel the same moral obligation to make a clean humane kill on that type of game as I do on a whitetail doe. That requires me to use appropriate arms for the hunt. Yes we can have the meat hunter vs trophy hunter argument--till you see the people that show up for a bit of elephant meat. | |||
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Many reasons. I want to hunt a few dangerous game species. You might find the answers on African big game hunting at the top. Same reasons could be said why climb El Capitain with no ropes ect. Man VS wild. To imitate your Heroes or partake in a sacred rite. How will you react when a 4k pound hippo is charging you. Man is instinctually drawn to danger. Thrill. The experience. You can watch a video but it won't replace the act of doing something yourself. I think it is in some way to chase away ones own demons of fear. For some it may be a test of manhood or ones skills. To be alive. I have had about seven near death experiences and they are quite transforming accidental or otherwise. They say the adventure truly begins when things go wrong. No singular reason. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Well, I've never hunted dangerous game, and given my age, know I never will. And this may not be a direct answer to your question, but when I think of hunting dangerous game, I think of how it was done historically. I know things have changed, but it sure is possible to hunt dangerous game with very heavy rifles and still place yourself at high risk (not that that practice has survived). The African professional hunters of yesteryear hunted them with enormously powerful calibers, and if you read the accounts of some of them (John A. Hunter, for example), you easily come to the conclusion that they were brave beyond measure. John Hunter and his clients, for example, killed dangerous game by having them charge. It was his practice for himself and his clients, generally, to shoot elephants, lions, rhinos, buffalos and leopards that way. He used a double rifle (.577, if I recall correctly). I can't imagine hunting them that way. In passing, if anyone wants a terrific account of a professional hunter in old Africa, try Hunter | |||
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Does it not really boil down to how much risk are you will to take and expose the others with you to? If you want to be a 'risk taker' go ahead and use the .270 on a Lion. But then, whats the reply when the traker gets mauled or the lion runs off and kills a kid 2 weeks later. I like to shoot the biggest boomer I can shoot well. Why--- because its fun, its humane to the animal to kill it quickly and I would rather be prepared for 'worst case' than 'best case'. But, do whatever blows your skirt up! | |||
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I don't hunt DG or any other kind of game because its labeled in a particular way or threatens me in a particular way, I just like to hunt. DG hunting? well, while hunting anywhere for anything in AK you could encounter brown bears so maybe thats DG hunting? In africa a wounded bushbuk could get you, nearly anywhere a snake may strike, while hunting asia or northern africa it may be AlQueda. Danger abounds. Anywhere and anything I hunt I go and do so because it interests me and I use a firearm appropriate for the capable "Reduce to Posession." The choice of cartridge for me is based solely on its ability to efficiently kill and my ability to efficiently use it. I wouldn't feel anymore threatened by an elephant than I would a praire dog and yes I've encountered both. Its not that one isn't more dangerous than the other and its certainly not that I'm any kind of particular brave, its just that the circumstances may or may not conspire against you, you may or may not rise to the occasion, and fate or Gods Will is responsible for the rest. Automobiles kill far more people than wildlife does on a per use basis every year. Bonafied sissies still get drivers licenses. | |||
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The original hunters of dangerous game, or those that lived in countries where dangerous game also inhabited, from the spear hunters to the firearm hunter, used the best weapon they could find to do the job as safely as possible. To those early firearm users the hunting and killing of DG was a necessity of life as they earned a living from obtaining specimens for museums around the World, ivory and skins for sale and later as guides for trophy hunters or cullers for game departments. Most chose the biggest or best gun they could afford and I don't think any of those hunters chose their firearms to give any animal a chance or for themselves to experience any adrenalin pumping high by playing chicken with DG. Bell used small bores like the 6.5, 7mm and 318 to shoot thousands of DG because he found he was such a cool and calm shot and did not see the point in using guns with unnecessary recoil and noise but he did not make this choice to increase the exhilaration factor for him or to give the animals a better chance of turning on him. I do understand your question, and in the light of the fact that today none of us 'has' to hunt dangerous game or hunt any game for that matter, you may well ask why don't we make it as dangerous and adrenalin pumping as possible for ourselves. Perhaps if we were permitted to hunt DG alone as we can still do some other dangerous past-times alone in some countries, we could make the hunting as dangerous as we like but unfortunately today that is not the case as some point out above where rules govern the minimum calibre and govern how and with whom we must hunt. To some they just like to use the big boomers, others like myself prefer a classic 40cal cartridge in a classic gun that has a rich history of DG go getter and others probably would use their favourite medium bore if permitted. Most just want a good stalk and a good clean killing shot and are not thinking about setting up or getting into a situation to face great danger. | |||
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I use big calibers (375 H&H for brown bear, and 500 Jeffery for cape bufflo and elphant (when I get to Africa), becaue I like hunt up close and personal. I like my shots under twenty-fife yards, closer is better. The big bore rifles, if you can shoot them, give you a certain confidence in thick stuff, when your up that close. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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AC I think it helps some guys test what they're made of. A recently dart-hunted white rhino bull at ten yards (with us in an archery ground blind) let me know I didn't like it. Was glad I had a .375 Weatherby in my hand, though. Adrenaline junky stuff... _______________________ | |||
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Not a traditional DG hunt, I feel like late season waterfowl hunting is a very dangerous hunt. Rain, sleet, snow, ice, and high winds, things can go wrong in a hurry. Boats take on water, visibility goes down to nil, fingers stop working and you have to navigate your flat boat through the stump fields to get back to the landing. Sure, you won't get eaten or gored, but drowning and freezing will make you just as dead. ----------------------------------------------------- Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him. Proverbs 26-4 National Rifle Association Life Member | |||
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Only an arm chair bound internet commando without the slightest clue as to what he speaks could possibly think that using a big bore DG rifle somehow evens the odds and gives the animal no chance. Big bores are about the ability to stop a DG animal where a small bore would only wound. Big bores are about a humane kill where a slighter round will only wound. Of course none of this makes any sense to a "man" who is coming at it from a point of absolute ignorance and extreme naivety afforded this luxurious opinion while enjoying the safety and security of his computer screen down in mom's basement. If that man had ever walked in elephant infested Jesse bush and suffered a charge or two or had ever tried to dig a wounded cape buffalo out of the long grass he'd have an entirely different and more realistic view. One ounce of being there is worth 10 million pounds of I read about it in a magazine. PS Why wouldn't you post this in African hunting? | |||
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Canuck, There are a few widows out there right now who might dissagree with your post. There are a lot of people in your party, and the surrounding villages whos safety depends on your ability to dispatch your pray efficiently, and hunainly. | |||
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With over 8300 AR postings under your belt, I would not think that african caliber requirements and cartridge size vs shot placement issues would need to be explained to you! "The difference between adventure and disaster is preparation." "The problem with quoting info from the internet is that you can never be sure it is accurate" Abraham Lincoln | |||
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Canuck Your post is based on an incorrect assumption. Caliber and power does not equal death. Bullet placement is the only thing that kills animals. You can shoot it with whatever you want, if you dont put it in the right place it makes no difference if it is a 30-06 or a 700 Nitro express. The widely held idea that you can physically knock an animal down with a shoulder fired weapon is false. Now, to answer your need for real danger you should go and chat with Mark Sullivan. Dont shoot until the animal breaks 10 yards. The danger and challenge of every hunt is only dictated by the hunters desires. That said, it is his hunt and is only for him to enjoy. We as spectators should reserve our ideas and judgement for places they are wanted. Good luck HQ | |||
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Some of us learned to hunt cape buffalo for the meat and the hunt. On the otherhand, I personally know of one case of a man killed by a reedbuck. Walking the forest of Africa is exhilarating, it is stepping back in time to a different era. But choosing a rifle and calibre should always be done with regards to the most efficient, affordable, achievable weapon. I've shot buffalo with a 338WM, because that was what was in my hands. It works great. I do not feel cheated, though, when shooting buffalo with a 416Rigby. It is a little more secure and I usually hunt without a PH. Nor has this stopped me from building a 500 AccRel. I've never shot an elephant and do not particularly have a desire to do so. However, I respect those who pay the big fees to do so, because that funds the future for habitat and sustainable hunting in Africa. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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For those of you who didn't pick up on it, I was adressing only those who go out actually hunting DG...that is, looking for a fight with a dangerous animal. For those folks, who like to tell all their friends about the mighty animal(s) they brought down with their cannon, I can only add that I''m totally unimpressed by their feats. Nor does it bother me greatly what their heirs may think if the man is out there intentionally putting himself in harm's way. That is his choice and he probably should think first of his family.... As someone else here said, it is not the size of the weapon that kills quickly, but the skill of the hunter coupled with good quality bullets properly placed. If a person does not have that skill, they probably should not intentionally tangle with DG for sport or ego until they have accompanied experienced DG hunters long enough to develop them. If they do have the skills, medium bore rifles (up to .375" or a bit larger if required by law) will be lighter and easier to handle well and will get the job(s) done. A giant super-powered rifle is probably not a truly good answer for a large variety of reasons IMO. Now there are instances in which I can certainly agree a man should use the highest powered weapon he can handle with real skill (and can afford to practice using a lot). Primo on that list are the times when a person is out in the bush NOT looking for a fuss with DG. He may be hunting other prey or just be afoot somewhere and run onto one or more anyway and provoke it/them into an attack totally inadvertantly. Then he is fully justified (in my view) in using whatever he has which will do the job on short, sudden, notice. Another instance would be a farmer located in DG country who needs to protect himself, his family, his neighbors, and his stock. Usually, he probably won't want to be paying the prices of really large bore rifles and cartridges to tote around with him while doing the everyday living out there. And because of cost he may not practice enough with them to get to the point where he can do better than he would with rifles and cartridges with which he could/would practice more. And usually he will have some opportunity to plan a relatively safe way to assure the demise of dangerous pests. But however he manages it is perfectly justifiable in my eyes. Anyway, you guys obviously are all free to think whatever you want. I posted this topic to get some folks who shall remain un-named thinking about just what it is they are trying to accomplish, and what they need to do as either "sport", appropriate caution, or a part of ordinary life in the bush or veldt. Have fun, y'all. | |||
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So is a 10.5 lb., 416 loaded to 6000 ftlbs a 'giant' rifle? It feels pretty good and 'standard' to me. I think of it as Africa's answer to the 270. My son just used one for a guinea fowl, and I just dropped a 201 yard, 35 lb. oribi. They work and are ready for buffalo. Would a 7.5-8 lb. rifle swing up faster? Perhaps. But I'll take the extra power that the extra 0.1-0.3 seconds of timing cost. First shots on buff should always be deliberate and beyond such a split second difference. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I wouldn't think the .416 is a giant. Pretty much a standard factory chambering. I'm talking about some of the humongous wildcat chamberings guys have bought or developed supposedly for more safety specifically in DG hunting. So I'm basically asking whether they want it to quit being DG hunting? Do they want a cannon so large it is no longer dangerous? If so, that is probably a vain hope...and IMO not a particularly good approach to the endeavor. Skill in shooting and hunting both are probably better, though they require more effort on the part of the would-be DG hunter. And my comments were not exclusively aimed at African DG hunting either, though that obviously is where most of the huntable DG is these days. I | |||
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Ok so the .416 Rigby, since its a standard factory chambering, isn't a giant. Does this - not a giant - also apply to other standard factory chambering larger in caliber? Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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While I don't plan on hunting DG, I suppose it is possible that I may by chance, run into a bear while elk hunting. If that happens, my 9.3x62 would probably work fine. Now, if I were to run into an elephant or cape buffalo while hunting elk, I may be a bit under-gunned. Start young, hunt hard, and enjoy God's bounty. | |||
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Easy answer: you use a big caliber/cartridge for big game for the same reason you use a .30-06 for deer instead of a .22 LR. Just because you can kill the intended game with the round you're using doesn't mean you should hunt with it. Another dimension of this argument that I haven't noticed anybody giving (admittedly I only scanned the thread) is that in Africa, you pay for blood. With lion or elephant especially, if you shoot one and it ends up running off and isn't recovered, you've just spent A LOT of money on nothing. And finally, some people just like shooting big guns, and if they can handle the recoil, why not? | |||
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It seems to be a factor of what a person can shoot quickly and accurately. The video of the guys shooting the 577 T-Rex is a humorous case in point. None of those guys would be better off with that calibre because they couldn't hold on to the rifle. On the otherhand, I've been building a 500 AccRel, an inexpensive, lighter equivalent to a 500 Jeffrey. I do expect it to make things safer, should I be stalking some of those crazy buffalo up in the thick stuff on the mountains, without a PH backup. But the 500 is only safer if I can shoot it with non-chalance, as if it were a 270. OK, two-handed non-chalance. Big bores need to be grasped firmly in both hands. If I don't shoot it smoothly and accurately, then my 416 will be safer. The practical rule is carry the largest calibre available that you can accurately and confidently shoot. Period. That is part of our pre-hunt planning and preparation. My son and I enjoy hunting and we do what we can to make it as safe as possible. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Certainly for all-around hunting, in areas where one may wander onto DG, I fully agree with your comments just above. I still have a bit of a logic problem with some of the guys who fancy themselves DG hunters though. It is one thing for a guy to want to test himself. That is not only understandable, but in my view desirable in every adult person. But, why do some of them try to load the DG test in their favor buy building or buying cannons? It MUST be because THEY think those rifles are better killers, Yes? If they are right, what kind of test is it intended to be? One to prove they don't have the skills, the composure, or the cajones to meet their DG with the same sorts of DG cartridges which served everyone during the first half of the 20th Century after effective smokeless cartridges became the norm? Then again, if they are wrong about the bigger rifles being better (easier or quicker) killers, why limit their reflexes and skills with ungainly, heavy rifles or guns? With blazingly fast DG animals, .3 of a second slower total response time can be the difference between who wins the battle...the hunter or the hunted. That's a long time when fighting any animal which can do 50 yards in about two seconds, and .3 second longer almost doubles some folks' reflex times.. I guess it seems to me that some of them want something for nothing, like so many humans in other walks of life these days. They appear to want to be able to say they have faced up to DG on its own ground and have slain it. But they apparently don't want to pay the price of the test...i.e., having it a situation where the odds demand that at least one of the participants on EITHER side of the contest WILL die as a result of the game. .As one of the generals on Omaha Beach reportedly said to invading soldiers cowering behind the dunes (paraphrased) "What the Hell, do you bastards expect to live forever?" and led them back into a successful attack. That famous act may be more apocryphal than true, but it makes my point. As the old mountain oyster joke goes, "Senor, sometimes ze bull, he win!" And it was that possibility that made famous matadors loved and admired for their bravery and skill. It wasn't the size of their swords. | |||
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I've got an idea. Instead of basing your opinion on guess work, conjecture and ignorance why don't you get your butt off the computer and go do a DG hunt in serious DG country like the Zambezi during the early season like say May. Make sure and do a tuskless cow hunt in the thick stuff. Experience a couple or more charges at close range then you can come back here and post to hearts content about the subject until then your opinion is nothing but mental masturbation based on your total lack of understanding and knowledge of the subject. Because more often than we'd like senior ze bull he does win. Or haven't you been paying attention? | |||
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I gather a good part of the reasoning behind wanting to use super bigBore canons to hunt DG, is to mimimize the risk/danger in hunting dangErous game....in other words; to make DG hunting safer? [presuming the person is sufficiently proficient with the rifle and its recoil, to be of any greater advantage to him] Some folk have accuse people like Gail Selby[who hunted ele with Bells 7x57] and Bow hunters who take DG, ..that they are just 'stunt' shooting. ..and some folk will also tell us that Mr.Bell used small bores on his 700 Buff and 1000 Ele, for cost saving reasons, If Mr.Bell was supposedly so much into economising/cost saving on ammunition on his ivory hunts, why then did he spend so much buying a series [of six] relatively expensive bespoke Rigby rifles, just to fire the most economical & effective chambering? Yes 7x57 rounds were much less costly than the large british express calibres, but considering how much money he made from ivory, combined with his efficient kill ratio, ... you really think he was concerned about the cost of ammunition?....please..  He was known to have ordered and used a 50 round leather belt from Rigby for his 7x57, saying that there were times that it payed to have them. Considering the very high average of miles he traversed on foot for each elephant killed on his ivory safaris, 50 rounds of 7x57 was much lighter to carry than the larger rounds...So would have been the rifle. Some have also claimed Bell only shot unriled DG with his small bores,..which is simply not true. He did acknowledge that the larger bores killed better on some shots, but also stated that the small bores were just as good a killer as the larger bores, on some types of shots. Was he more selective/careful with his shots whilst using the small bores on DG, indeed he was. However, the unique combo of his fitness,anatomical knowledge,marksmanship,cool nerve,high penetration small bores, resulted in great success. Bell with his small bores, successfully managed to look after his own well being and as well as the well being of his African helpers. I like these words from Chuck Hawks: "One does not walk down an elephant in uncharted African wilderness with a tool one regards as marginal and Bell had complete confidence in his ability to harvest elephants with the Rigby Mauser. It was his business and also his hide at stake, especially considering that the amount of money to be made was considerable. To put his efforts into perspective, he wrote of one day when he tracked and shot nine elephants. He estimated that he had earned 877 pounds sterling from the ivory harvested from those nine kills. After one expedition he returned with ivory worth over 23,000 pounds sterling. That was a vast sum of money and converted to today’s currency equivalent it would make your eyes water. One does not risk that kind of money and effort on a questionable calibre." and these words from a previous thread concerning Bells 7x57:
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Come now Trax, Bell was a Scotsman, he did not need any other reason to be a tightwad  No offense to the Scots, just a bit of stereotyping. Actually WDM Bell is my namesake and some of my descendants did come from Scotland, whether there is any relationship there I have never bothered to find out. I do like whiskey and the 7x57 cartridge and often dream of living in those old times of hunting and my life long ambition is to get to Africa. Some published information says he died in 1951, the year I was born(others say 1954 although in Townsend Whelen's introduction in "Bell of Africa" he mentions that shortly after corresponding with his friend Bell in 1950 he received word of his sudden death. Our current cat is called Walter .....Bell (so named by the SPCA where we got him). There seems to be some karma involved here!!! | |||
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Bell was an efficient,practical,clinical approach, professional hunter/poacher pure and simple, where as hunting-adventure spin merchants authors like,one safari wonder Ruark,Hemingway,Crapstick,Osa Johnson, .. all became alcoholics and sacrificed authenticity for profane commercial fame-success. Its the more understated,dedicated,no fuss,highly seasoned professionals like WMD.Bell and H.Selby, that I have the most regard for. | |||
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I never understand the need to denigrate fellow hunters or writers, is it jealousy or lack of talent to do the same? Ruark made multiple safaris, not just one. IIRC he did write a book after his first safari, however he made his living writing. He was also an alcoholic before his first trip to Africa. Without a doubt plenty of writers embellish their experiences, however Capstick generated interest in Africa for another generation including me. Without Ruark, Harry Selby would have still been a great PH, but we would probably never have heard of him. I respect these writers and enjoy their works, even if they are not 100% accurate. One of my favorite books is "Months of the Sun" by Ian Nyschens. He prefered the 450 NE. Sutherland carried a 577 Nitro, and Taylor's tendencies were towards big bores. Nobody can argue with Bell's success, but these hunters definitely had a different viewpoint for their hunting.
I do enjoy hunting dangerous game, in particular elephant and buffalo. The disappointment of endless hours of tracking and stalking of prey that mostly ends in failure is offset by the exhiliration of finding that old dugga boy or the elephant you have been seaching. The idea that animal can kill me if I screw up does make it more exciting. Hunting any game we should always use a firearm that quickly dispatch the animal we hunt. I carry a 470 Nitro Double and a 375 H&H bolt gun when hunting in Africa. I have killed DG with both. Is the 470 a cannon? I do not think so. Does the 470 work better than the 375? IMO yes, it hits harder and will put down a large animal quicker. I am also planning to build a 505 Gibbs. Is that a cannon? Some of us are not only hunters, but are also rifle "nuts". How many deer rifles you own? A 30-30 or 30-06 work fine why are there so many out there? If you believe a 577 Nitro eliminates the danger of DG hunting, you have never been there. If you want to shoot a 577 because it is your favorite round, go for it. Same goes for the 375, as it is minimum in most countries, a decision made by men with far more experience than any of the keyboard commandos on AR. Why do I hunt DG? This is from my hunting report in 2011. "On the 4th we hunted for a buffalo cow all day (for leopard bait). While we saw many cows they all had young calves. I almost had to shoot a cow that charged but she stopped about 30 feet away when Shaun shouted her down. We crossed a road during the day and crossed it again about 90 minutes later. We found a nice set of leopard tracks on top of our tracks. Now the pressure was really on. We were in and out of buffalo all day and walked back to the truck in the dark but were unsuccessful. Those are the days I love. We hunted hard and walked quite a few miles. We were chased by elephants, watched a herd of a hundred buffalo stampede, and took a quick nap in a river bed during the heat of the day. It just does not get any better." BTW I leave in less than two weeks for Zim. Elephant and buffalo only. | |||
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I hope you have fun and come back safely with well-filled permits. It was not my intent at all to denigrate DG hunting and specific hunters...simply to point out the core of the sport strongly enough that folks would perhaps think about it a bit more... that the less dangerous they try to make the game, the less meaningful facing down the danger is. Sort of a (to me obvious) logic that if there is no great potential loss, there can be no great potential honour for having succeeded at it. For that reason, when hunting dangerous game as a pure and simple sporting test of one's self, I always encourage them to use the same smokeless cartridges the guys used in the 1900-to-1940 era.... then if the current DG hunters succeed, they are putting themsdelves onto the same plane of accomplishment that those old-timers did...if not in number of kills, at least in quality of the experience. And, at any rate, I thought it was also obvious that I was speaking of thin-skinned dangerous game, as all the ones I cited ARE considered thin-skinned....lion, leopard, buff were mentioned specifically, but the big bears and others are in there too. For elephant and rhino larger cartridges are needed both traditionally and appropriately...traditionally mainly from .450 to .577, but not at great velocities. Most of the old-timers felt the .600s and up to be generally impractical for a variety of reasons, though they all granted that they killed well when used well. What brought this all to the fore in my thoughts was the thread the other day asking if a .338 Winchester Mag was adequate for leopard and a response or two to that question. More and more on AR I am seeing the thought that bigger is always better, especially with DG even if it is light skinned and not of humongous size. I just can't buy into that. In my opinion it subtracts from the essence of the sport. For protection on general hunts and for culling, protection of life and property of neighbors, family and self, game management, and many other forms of DG shooting, I don't care what is used to to accomplish the goal(s). Those are instances of folks doing what must be done. But DG hunting as a sporting test usually does not HAVE to be done. I am certainly not against doing it, but I do think it should be done as a real test. Sure, Ze bull may win some of the time, but Zat is why it is called DANGEROUS game hunting. None of us wants to see any specific hunter die, but I do not want to see the danger of the sport die bit by bit either. Our forbearers could cope with that reality, perhaps because they had to, but they did cope with it. To test ourselves as their equals, why not play the game under the same rules? Tuskless cows were common then too, and were reportedly just as big and mean. But they fell consistently to the rifles of the day from the .375 H&H through the factory .400s, 450s, 475's and 500's....pretty much all pushing slugs of 300-to-500 grains or thereabouts at speeds of 2,000 to 2,350 fps. And, as to hunting DG, I've already done more of that than I will ever want to do again. I'm not thinking of the hunting seasons I did alone and on foot in the grizzly country of Northwestern Canada, armed with no more than a 7x57 or .30-06 (and a couple of years a .308). I'm thinking of when the game wore quilted winter clothing or black pajamas (depending on locale) and could shoot back. It often outnumbered our forces and was better adapted to the realities of kill or be killed. No thanks. I've had enough tests. Anyway, I wish you well. | |||
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I did not see that thread. A good leopard is an honest 150# maybe bigger or a little smaller depending on area. It does become a little silly if people feel a 338 Win Mag is not enough for that size animal (I did not read the thread you referenced). I have enjoyed your posts in the past, this one just seemed a little different. Thanks for your service. | |||
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Mike - I appreciate the thought behind your thanks for my military service, but I deserve no thanks. I was young and loved my countries intensely, as all the young folk in our Italian/Portuguese-American area of California did back then. (We all thought of ourselves as simply "Americans" in those days). Anyway, I was young and invincible, and just knew I would live forever! Our country needed us, so many of us joined up rather than waiting for the draft. I was "R.A. all the way". I also believed that if I worked hard and became a top soldier, I would have a better chance of coming home whole after serving for a whole career. I soon found out war doesn't work that way. Even the best soldiers, doing exactly what is the right thing to do according to their training, fall victim to the Red Gods' perverse humour just as often as the worst F-up in the outfit. God blessed me, and gave me the glorious chance to serve most of three hitches (all but 5 months of it overseas) before sending me home on a MATS med-evac flight and disabling me out after a few months in stateside hospitals. It was always my privilege to try to help my countries when I could (I'm dual Canadian American citizenship). I only wish I could have done it forever. No matter how much they bitch at times, there are no more loyal Americans anywhere than in the Armed Forces, and it was a joy to live among them in those days. Again, have a good hunt. ----------------- (Oh, and BTW, a man who really deserves our thanks is my good friend,, the late Lockwood Spafford of Scottsdale, AZ. "Lock" was an original member of the "Devil's Brigade", the first ever Special Forces unit of the U.S military (it was actually a joint American/Canadian unit.) Lock was a Canuck who came to the unit in its' very first days, and fought his way through Italy and France and into Germany with the Brigade...and was severely wounded 5 times along the way. I'll never forget him. He was one of the politest, thoughtful men I ever knew. He died just over two years ago. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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Trax please tell us what your actual hunting experience is--- You bad mouth people all the time but never will put up your facts-- Man up or shut up. | |||
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The AR forum is loaded with praise and criticism on a whole variety of subjects relating to hunting. People have said Synthetic stocked custom rifles are not worthy of being called true customs. People have highly criticised Mr.Echols proprietary custom mount system. People have criticised how much others spend on custom rifles. People have crticised-gone to town on PH Mark Sullivan on several occasions. People have criticised SCI People have criticised hunting in fenced areas. People have criticised those who rely on the safety catch for safety. People have criticised Bow hunters for choosing to use such equipment to take DG...or using a rifle as back-up on a bow hunt. People have criticised resting ones firearm on the vehicle to take a clearer,more steady-accurate shot at game. People have criticised Saeed for hunting Buff and Ele at the longer ranges he does,saying its not in the true spirit or tradition of DG hunting. People have spun absolutely unfounded claims about Mr.Bell,in an attempt to discredit him, simply to support their own personal argument. [Harry Selby I gather was approving of his daughter Gail taking Ele with Bells 7x57, so I gather the critics of Bell have similar neg.view toward Gail & Harry.] People have said H.Selby was not the best person to ask about stopping DG when things go wrong, because Harrys high level of proficiency as a PH meant he wasn't exposed to as many situations as the less proficient PHs, in having to stop the clients beast. Ask Saeed if he has ever really felt in any real danger on all the occasions that he has hunted DG, and also ask him if he has ever felt undergunned with his .375 medium bore. IIRC, the primary reason for Saeed having a more powerful .375, is to accommodate the much longer ranges he sometimes takes shots at. IIRC, he stated that he does not believe his more powerful .375 to be any better killer than .375H&H at the ranges most people hunt at. Has anyone ever heard Harry Selby state that he felt he needed more than .416 bore, in his 53 full seasons as an Africa based PH? Pondoro Taylor said his 350Rigby killed just as effectively as the more powerful .375H&H, out to a certain distance[150yd] I can easily get a .338/06 to fire [a select bullet] of the same speed,retained weight and expanded dia. as Taylors .350 Rigby. So it should in effect kill just as well as the .350rigby & .375H&H,..out to 150yd. If people are content to be fuelled by the profane creative writing spin merchants of hunting[of which the degree of spin and manufactured drama can vary] that be their choice, I personally prefer the more clinically tempered-proffesionally seasoned,no fuss approach and reporting types, in the hunting industry and in huntings history.
Empirical evidence well shows that Large DG can die just as quick when hit with a small bore as when hit with a much larger bore....and and relatively small animals can die no quicker than large DG, despite both of them being hit with the same .375 supermagnum. | |||
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I just returned last week from a DG hunt in Zim for tuskless elephant, buffalo bull, and male lion. I used a 9.3x74R double for small animals and the lion. I used a 577NE for the tuskless and buffalo. I've done several DG hunts in the past using a 375H&H, 416 Rigby, and 500NE. With all due respect, and I do mean that, I don't understand the motivations behind the OP. And I really don't think the OP understands my motivations for hunting DG and using big bore weapons. Firstly, I've never approached the hunting of or been motivated to hunt dangerous game from a standpoint of "testing" myself or any other macho mentality. I hunt things like elephant and buffalo because they are fun to hunt. Period! Most of the time, any dangerous animal will turn and flee at the sight or smell of man, just like the whitetail deer on the back 40. But every once in awhile, they will make a stand. Most of us who hunt do so because we enjoy that bit of adrenalin rush we experience when we catch that first glimpse of a big buck (buck fever). When a DG animal makes a stand, or threatens to make a stand, I get a similar feeling. It's fun and enjoyable. However, I don't see it as testing my personal metal. To state that there is something macho about it reminds me of the antis' chants of "Does it make you feel like a big man to kill a little deer?". Statements such as that do nothing but reinforce the ignorance of the antis' understanding of the subject! As far as the use of the 577NE or 500NE that I've used in the past, I hold the same sentiments as above. To say that the 577NE eliminates the danger factor is silly. Hit an animal wrong with it and you'll just get a pissed off animal! Again, I don't use the big bores or ultra bores because there is anything macho about it. I simply enjoy shooting guns of all types and sizes. And I like shooting big animals with big guns because they match up well together and seem appropriate for each other. Call me crazy but I like to go to the range and shoot the big boomers for the sheer fun of it. Recoil doesn't bother me at all and I like the challenge of controlling that power. Again, not because it's macho but rather because it's fun, pure and simple. AC, think what you will of me and my motivations. I really don't care. I don't care if you are impressed with my hunting adventures or not. Why? Well ... because I don't do it to impress anyone, including myself. I pursue big and dangerous animals with big guns because I think it is fun to do so. Nothing more and nothing less. Impressing anyone in the process has really never entered my mind. To think like that is again the "Does it make you feel like a big man to kill a little helpless, defenseless, INNOCENT animal?" mentality. I know the anti thinks he is scoring a moral / high ground victory with those statements but I just look at them with a "Huh? What are you talking about?" reaction. To put a fine point on it, the assumption of machismo motivations associated with hunting, whether it be cottontails or elephants, using a pellet rifle or a 700NE, totally misses the "logic" mark and IMO, shows a lack of understanding of the subject in total. | |||
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Machoism involves having a strong or exaggerated sense of power or the right to dominate. Biographies indicate writer E.Hemingway, was driven by a desire to express his machoism. His father instilled into Ernest from a young age, a strong monolithic hyper-masculinity. It could appear from his writings, that the killing,danger,tempting/cheating death theme, was prominent. Hunting was like a proving ground for ones manhood. Hemingway would not be the only person to have ever behaved or feel that way when DG hunting, or, - to use DG hunting as an outlet of expression of such. The emotive nature of hunting stories by Hemingway,Capstick and the like, can fuel some peoples minds to encourage some sort of drama-confrontation. Hemingway was disappointed when he shot a lion and it just died,and thats all..... I gather most level headed DG hunters and PHs, would be very pleased with such a relatively uneventful result. | |||
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Threads as this one are the main reason I rarely take part in them anymore.  | |||
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Never hunted DG and probably never will. Ive always had a desire to try for a coastal Grizz, but dont see it happening. That said, I enjoy reading about fellow hunters and their exploits. Sometimes I can almost feel the hair stand up on the back of my neck just reading about close calls such as with a charging Buff, Elephant, Bear etc due to many different reasons. Taken by suprise, equipment malfunction, whatever the case may be. When seat belt laws first came about my reaction was that sometimes they (seat belts) can instill a false sense of security and lead to complacency. The inherint danger is still present and very real! Most of the time I gravitate towards non-magnum calibers. And if I won the lottery and went to Africa that probably wouldnt change. But to berate guys for using "too much gun" on a DG hunt.. Sorry, but that is just wack to me.. Why stop at a 375 or a 9.3? Why not take the attitude that they need to "man up" and use a spear? Im sure ego comes into play for some hunters. Personaly, I hunt because I love it! And I dont give a damn about impressing anyone.. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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all the above is a healthy attitude and non-magnums are fun to shoot. As many on the list have said, when you've been in the midst of them there is no such thing as too much gun, unless the hunter is intimidated by his own firepower. So I like the word "man up". Why stop at a 9.3? A flat shooting, handloaded 416Rigby, or even a 450Rigby or 500 calibre gives some added punch, and you never know when that would have made a difference between a close call or marginal shot and tragedy. A month ago I shot a buffalo 1.5" under the left eye that went under the brain and apparently did not hit the spine anywhere. Nevertheless, the buffalo collapsed on the spot and only needed a finishing shot. The .416 bullet was travelling 2825 at muzzle and about 2650+ at impact. The 5500 ftlb impact energy and the overall speed may have contributed to a massive, paralyzing shockwave to the nervous system. Would a 338 have done the same thing? Maybe. Would a 30-06? Maybe. But as the calibre and energy grow smaller, the probability of the that reaction grow smaller, too. PS: there was no back-up rifle in that situation. While that may be uncommon when coming over for the once in a lifetime hunt, it is the mindset that needs to be in place. A PH can be blocked from the ensuing action, fall down, and they, too, can have mechanical failures. So your advice to 'man-up' can apply to calibre choice and pre-hunt practice, too. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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