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They should be banned for life :)
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One of Us
Picture of Mike_Dettorre
posted
Given that the cartridges below have their identified invented/adopted dates:

- 6.5x55 and 7x57 both before 1900
- 30-06 was adopted in 1906
- 416 Rigby in 1911
- 375H&H in 1912
- 50 BMG in 1920
- 35 Whelen 1922
- 270 Win in 1925
- 308 Win in 1952
- 243 Win in 1955
- 458 Win mag 1956
- 340 Weatherby 1963
- 5.56x45 in 1963

the above taken as whole being absolute proof Big Grin that no cartridge in the last 50 plus years has represented a material change in performance; therefore, the argument of...

“why do I need XYZ cartridge when ABC cartridge already exists” is hereby officially deemed “silly” and anybody who uses it should be banned from this site for life Big Grin

(oh what ¾ retirement can cause one to do)

Big Grin stir horse sofa coffee killpc

Question:
Should we ban the curmudgeons for not recognizing that "need" has nothing to do with new cartridge invention or let them stay because they are old and senile and have no place else to go and you feel sorry for them? Vote Yes to ban, No to spare them.

Choices:
Yes
No

 


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10163 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
You left the 9,3x62 off your list. That should get you banned Cool


"A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience, rather than by a mob of onlookers. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact."
 
Posts: 131 | Location: Umshwati, South Africa | Registered: 20 April 2010Reply With Quote
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Picture of Wstrnhuntr
posted Hide Post
You need to get out of the house and do some shooting Mike. May I suggest the 30-06.. Big Grin



AK-47
The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like.
 
Posts: 10188 | Location: Tooele, Ut | Registered: 27 September 2001Reply With Quote
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Picture of Grenadier
posted Hide Post
You also left out the .45-70 and the .300 H&H magnum. shame

But, pray tell, which of your cartridges will do what the 6.8 SPC will do in the rifle it is designed to be shot from?




.
 
Posts: 10900 | Location: North of the Columbia | Registered: 28 April 2008Reply With Quote
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Picture of Crazyhorseconsulting
posted Hide Post
Maybe when today's gun cranks stop openly stating the latest XYZ whizbang ALMOST duplicates a cartridge that has been around since 1925.

I seem to remember 3 or 4 articles touting the .260 Remington almost duplicating the .270 Win.

If a person is going to come up with something new, by all means do so, but why duplicate an existing cartridge.

This from a person that owns or has owned a .300 Win. Mag and a .300 Weatherby Mag. and a .7mm Rem. Mag and a .338 Win. Mag and a .349 Weatherby Mag. and a .264 Win. Mag. and a .375 H&H and a .458 Win. Mag. and a couple of .45/70's, most of them all at the same time. Hell of a lot of overlap there and having used all of them to kill game, I really never could tell that much difference on the performance of any of them as long as I placed my shots accurately.

It is great to know that people are still searching for that Holy Grail of rifle cartridges in this day and time, but when the best that can be expected is a cartridge that duplicates or barely exceeds an existing round just does not seem to make sense, especially when one looks at all of the various ultra mags/short mags/WSM's/WSSM's and so forth that the various firearms manufacturer's have brought out that have faded into the sunset.


Even the rocks don't last forever.



 
Posts: 31014 | Location: Olney, Texas | Registered: 27 March 2006Reply With Quote
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Picture of Von Gruff
posted Hide Post
I cant/wont reply to your poll as you left the 303 British off the list and you included the 270 so it is nonsensical IMNSHO dancing


Von Gruff.

http://www.vongruffknives.com/

Gen 12: 1-3

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


 
Posts: 2693 | Location: South Otago New Zealand. | Registered: 08 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Picture of Fjold
posted Hide Post
You forgot the 220 Swift 1935


Frank



"I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money."
- Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953

NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite

 
Posts: 12753 | Location: Kentucky, USA | Registered: 30 December 2002Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
....and the 7.65x53 Argentine. Hey, where's the .318?




.
 
Posts: 10900 | Location: North of the Columbia | Registered: 28 April 2008Reply With Quote
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Picture of Blacktailer
posted Hide Post
And the 30-30?
How you likin' those long winter nights up there Mike?
What round did Jimmy Buffet use to shoot his freezer?
Confused


Have gun- Will travel
The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark
 
Posts: 3831 | Location: Cave Creek, AZ | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
...and the .348 Win!!!




.
 
Posts: 10900 | Location: North of the Columbia | Registered: 28 April 2008Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
The opening list of universally popular cartridges left off the
338 Winchester Magnum, from 1958.

And to be honest, the 50BMG is not a shoulder-carried hunting cartridge, so the various .510" and .500" hunting rounds that only produce 6000-8000 ft pounds muzzle energy certainly have a place among DG and buffalo hunters.


+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
Posts: 4253 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
posted Hide Post
Yes, indeed in my delusional state I should have:

included the 220 swift

included the 300 H&H

not listed the 35 whelen and listed the 9,3 x62 instead. I went back and forth and don't remember what caused me to decide

I purposefully did not list the 338 win mag because it was surpassed by the 340 Weatherby.

30-30, 348 win, 338 win mag were all superseded by 30-06, 35 whelen, and 340 weatherby. I drew the line at 200 fps.

While this post is all written with tongue firmly planted in cheek, I did try to identify only cartridges that from a practical performance perspective have not been superseded since there invention/adopted or offered some other significant benefit.


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10163 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of ramrod340
posted Hide Post
Maybe it simply an age issue. In my 20s a couple rifles covered everything I hunted. By my 50s had 30+ rifles at any one time. To cover pretty much the same hunting. Now in the 60s heading back to just a few.

But think how boring the hunting camp or even this site if we all used the same couple of cartridges.


As usual just my $.02
Paul K
 
Posts: 12881 | Location: Mexico, MO | Registered: 02 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Picture of Crazyhorseconsulting
posted Hide Post
quote:
But think how boring the hunting camp or even this site if we all used the same couple of cartridges.


PLUS 1


Even the rocks don't last forever.



 
Posts: 31014 | Location: Olney, Texas | Registered: 27 March 2006Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
How about the 7x57?
 
Posts: 2173 | Location: NORTHWEST NEW MEXICO, USA | Registered: 05 March 2008Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
posted Hide Post
How about Line 1 in the list of cartridges? Big Grin


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10163 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of cal30 1906
posted Hide Post
Mike
Excellent poll, many cartridges were left out but it's tough to name all of them. It's nice to have all the choices we have today but really in reality many of them introduced over the last 25 years have had in my opinion the word millennial attached to them. Myself I'm old school in my cartridges. The freedom to reinvent the wheel is priceless!




If it cant be Grown it has to be Mined! Devoted member of Newmont mining company Underground Mine rescue team. Carlin East,Deep Star ,Leeville,Deep Post ,Chukar and now Exodus Where next? Pete Bajo to train newbies on long hole stoping and proper blasting techniques.
Back to Exodus mine again learning teaching and operating autonomous loaders in the underground. Bringing everyday life to most individuals 8' at a time!
 
Posts: 3082 | Location: Northern Nevada & Northern Idaho | Registered: 09 April 2005Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
How about Line 1 in the list of cartridges? Big Grin


Well, by your logic, the 7x57 was supplanted by the 7mm RM in 1962.


Don't Ever Book a Hunt with Jeff Blair
http://forums.accuratereloadin...821061151#2821061151

 
Posts: 7580 | Location: Arizona and off grid in CO | Registered: 28 July 2004Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
posted Hide Post
Let's see if I can stir a little more by augmenting the list.

I will address each of the uniformed Big Grin members comments:

as previously mentioned, I should have included the 200 swift and the 300 HH and it was a toss up as to whether to use the 9,3x632 or the 35 whelen

With respect to:

-the 6.8 spc was essentially previously accomplished by the 7.62x39 both will fit into an AR-15 platform and I find list little difference between a .277, 110 grn bullet at 2575 and .312, 123 grn bullet at 2425 for the design puprose of a medium range urban warfare cartridge.

-the 45-70 govt was left off because it was surpassed by the 458 win mag

- 303 British was left off because it was surpassed by the 30-06

- 7.65 Argie was surpassed by the 30-06

- 318 WR was surpassed by the 338 win mag which was surpassed by the 340 weatherby

- 30-30 obviously surpassed by the Krag/30-06/308 Win

-348 Win surpassed by the 35 whelen

- with respect to the various =477/500 caliber cartridges, I find no practical difference in performance than a 458 win mag pushing a .45, 500 grn bullet at 2200 fps and 505 gibbs pushing .505, 600 grn bullet at 2100 fps. Said another way, there is not a buffalo on the planet that when all variables are held equal other than the projectile at the relevant velocity is going to know the difference.


My measurement of "surpass" is similarly weight for caliber with 200 fps more in velocity.


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10163 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
posted Hide Post
Another AZ writer,

You are not quite grasping my point. It is not exact caliber to exact caliber and exact fps by exact fps, it is practical difference.

Is there really any practical difference between a 7mm mag and 300 hh or win mag pushing a 150 vs 180 grn bullet at 3100 fps


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10163 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Another AZ writer,

You are not quite grasping my point. It is not exact caliber to exact caliber and exact fps by exact fps, it is practical difference.

Is there really any practical difference between a 7mm mag and 300 hh or win mag pushing a 150 vs 180 grn bullet at 3100 fps


Well if that is true, why include the .308? What does it do the .30-06 cannot do? I guess I am not following your logic here at all, but then again, I am not going to lose sleep over it either.


Don't Ever Book a Hunt with Jeff Blair
http://forums.accuratereloadin...821061151#2821061151

 
Posts: 7580 | Location: Arizona and off grid in CO | Registered: 28 July 2004Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
posted Hide Post
Fair question.

The 308 and the 223 are included because their performance characteristic had to do with a slightly different attribute which is s material efficiency improvement in both powder consumption and space.

The 308 (7.62x51) was much better suited for automatic weapons and weighs less overall in a smaller package and consumes about 20% less powder. Similarly, the 220 swift far out performs the 223 Remington (5.56x45) but the 223 Remingtion is incredibly more efficient.

If remove the above improvements, then yes you would take the 308 win and the 223 remington off the list.


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10163 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
Jeez, look at this.............and it is only the middle of February!


______________________________________________

The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift.



 
Posts: 1855 | Location: Northern Rockies, BC | Registered: 21 July 2006Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
My "go to" rifles are 30.06, 6.5x55, and .35 Remington. .35 Remington (introduced in 1906) was my first center fire rifle.


Never follow a bad move with a stupid move.
 
Posts: 217 | Location: Clute, TX USA | Registered: 23 June 2006Reply With Quote
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Picture of Wstrnhuntr
posted Hide Post
Will shooting my 300 Savage now get me banned? I didnt see it on the list.

shocker



AK-47
The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like.
 
Posts: 10188 | Location: Tooele, Ut | Registered: 27 September 2001Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
rotflmoYES Bann Me. Oh! That .300 Savage would have served just as well as the .308!!! Eeker roger beer


Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone..
 
Posts: 10226 | Location: Temple City CA | Registered: 29 April 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
posted Hide Post
Todd,

You are so correct and if you are not bothered by 150 fps, a 308 win.

Hence, when I decided to build my one rifle for everything (except dangerous game) I built a medium weight (ultra light stock by medium weight barrel) 308 winchester but alas it was stolen.


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10163 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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I try not to become overly excited about newly released cartridges. On the other hand, I do not get pissed about them either.

I have several of the "older" cartridges and a few of newer ones. Quiet a few perform very similarly and overlap intended purposes.

I have 30-06, 308 Win, 300 Win Mag, 300 Wby; and think the 300 H&H and the 300 WSM a great cartridges.
I also have 338 Win Mags and think the 340 WBY and 33 Nosler have a place, have a 325 WSM that I think is great cartridge, 458 Win Mag and 458 Lott, have a 7 Rem Mag and think the 28 Nosler is a great choice also, etc etc.

I am sure that I could do all my hunting with a 375 H&H, 30-06, and 223/5.56x45 and really not be at a disadvantage. Hell, guess I could get by with one of my 45/70 lever rifles.






[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Given that the cartridges below have their identified invented/adopted dates:

- 6.5x55 and 7x57 both before 1900
- 30-06 was adopted in 1906
- 416 Rigby in 1911
- 375H&H in 1912
- 50 BMG in 1920
- 35 Whelen 1922
- 270 Win in 1925
- 308 Win in 1952
- 243 Win in 1955
- 458 Win mag 1956
- 340 Weatherby 1963
- 5.56x45 in 1963

the above taken as whole being absolute proof Big Grin that no cartridge in the last 50 plus years has represented a material change in performance; therefore, the argument of...

“why do I need XYZ cartridge when ABC cartridge already exists” is hereby officially deemed “silly” and anybody who uses it should be banned from this site for life Big Grin

(oh what ¾ retirement can cause one to do)
 
Posts: 428 | Location: Wasilla, Alaska | Registered: 06 February 2006Reply With Quote
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This reminds me that my 2 3/4 inch shotguns will no longer dispatch a duck or goose. I don't own a 3 1/2" shotgun so I suppose I must give up birding. Love the old stuff.
 
Posts: 371 | Location: pueblo, Co. USA | Registered: 01 July 2006Reply With Quote
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Yup 1905 Otto Bock



quote:
Originally posted by Deon:
You left the 9,3x62 off your list. That should get you banned Cool


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 11396 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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I have nothing against a new cartridge design. I am just waiting to see one that is worth a rodents rump.. Whistling



AK-47
The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like.
 
Posts: 10188 | Location: Tooele, Ut | Registered: 27 September 2001Reply With Quote
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When did the .257 Weatherby come along? See ya .243 - And the 300 weatherby eliminates everything from the .270 to the 340wby. And really, if you took the 300 Roy added the Barnes TSX you could just go 22LR, .220 swift, 300Wby, 416 Rigby and toss the rest in the trash. Thank god we are not stuck with just the Swede, 06, and Rigby. Rice and mutton for supper every night, of course washed down with water. We could read Genesis or The gospel according to John before bed (if one book from the old and new testament were allowed)and fishing would allow the old plain hook with a minnow...no a worm, one might be tempted to use shiners in the spring and fatheads in the summer. Really no need for a car or even a bike, walking will get you there. If you have a boy call him Joe and girls can be, I dunno, Josephine? Black jumpsuits all around (proven to work)and we all get a black lab. I like the WSSMs, all the Wby magnums(except the .224) the .243 and the 6mm Remington, the .338 RUM and the .260 Rem. I don't care for mutton and rice is only good in pudding.
 
Posts: 849 | Location: MN | Registered: 11 March 2009Reply With Quote
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Deon: I'll do it for you 9.3X62 sucks, uh 35 Whelen all the way. Uh oh!


NRA Benefactor Life Member
 
Posts: 1297 | Location: Chandler arizona | Registered: 29 August 2003Reply With Quote
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Its been a bad year for me, first I am a deplorable according to Hilary, now Im an old curmudgeon, and I suppose Im guilty on both counts

All my guns are old calibers, some reall old, hell even my wife is old, and my sons ain't young any more and one is near retirement, my baby girl is 52 and my grandsons are in their mid 20s and my great granddaughter is 7 months and my rope horse is coming 20...

Holy smokes for lack of a better word in public. old

BTW, I wouldn't change a thing..


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 42210 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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I think the 30-06 is still a great cartridge. All vintage cartridges have improved ballistics simply due to gunpowder improvements. When originally issued, the 30-06 had a not to exceed pressure of 50,000 psia and a velocity of 2700 fps with a 150 grain bullet. By midcentury, powders were providing the same velocity at much lessened pressures, that the cartridge was basically loaded to velocity. Most of the post WW2 30-06 was in the mid to lower 40,000 psia.

This is true for all vintage cartridges, you can push the bullet faster at safe pressures than when they were originally created. Or you can use them as they were, and they are still quite effective.

I think many of the short, straight cartridges, introduced of late, have shortcomings. Short, straight cartridges don't feed well for one thing. Notice how many have to be fed out of three round detachable magazines. This is because these straight walled cartridges have to be lined up perfectly with the center of the chamber. Cartridge taper is actually our friend, taper allows the cartridge to be steered, and reduces extraction friction. The case relaxes off the chamber walls at a diagonal, not a line, so the case is less likely to drag.

Pressure is not our friend and recently introduced cartridges all tend to operate at 65,000 psia. Add a little heat and you get sticky extraction. If is better to do the same job at lower pressure.

And example of good cartridge design is the Chinese 5.8 X 42 mm service round. This cartridge has lots of taper, a thick rim, and operates at 60% of the pressure of the 5.56. According to Wiki, the BP10 has an operating pressure of 255 to 289.4 MPa (36,980 to 41,970 psi) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.8%C3%9742mm The actual operating pressures of the American round have been classified, but I understand it is close to 68,000 psia, which means, expect lots of pressure related malfunctions.

Everyone ought to look at the Cartridges of the World and come up with a justification for all the duplicative cartridges.
 
Posts: 1228 | Registered: 10 October 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
I have nothing against a new cartridge design. I am just waiting to see one that is worth a rodents rump.. Whistling


About 17ish years ago Remington developed the Ultramags and tbe Short Ultras

IMO.....the .338 UM and the 7mm SAUM are two great cartridge designs


________________________________________________
Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper
Proudly made in the USA
Acepting all forms of payment
 
Posts: 7361 | Location: South East Missouri | Registered: 23 November 2005Reply With Quote
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I voted yes, because I am one of those curmudgeons Smiler


Regards,

Chuck



"There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"
 
Posts: 4799 | Location: Colorado Springs | Registered: 01 January 2008Reply With Quote
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you missed the 8 mauser which made the 0-6 redundant before it was even invented.
 
Posts: 5002 | Location: soda springs,id | Registered: 02 April 2008Reply With Quote
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C'mon Lamar you been in Soda Springs way too long, the 8mm is deader a mackerel..you and I are the only deplorables that even own one! beer


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 42210 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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I am an outlier; I have a .30-06, but I never hunt with it; I could count on one hand the animals I have taken with it. If my .308 isn't good enough, I use a .300 UM; as Ted says, that case design is superb.

That said, I can't remember the last time I shot a deer with something other than a .308. Just plain works. My Rem Mod 7 is light and compact - perfect for the deer woods.


Don't Ever Book a Hunt with Jeff Blair
http://forums.accuratereloadin...821061151#2821061151

 
Posts: 7580 | Location: Arizona and off grid in CO | Registered: 28 July 2004Reply With Quote
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