The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles .270 or .308Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Every body knows the .270 is the flatter shooting round. So , i wanted to find out how much. This came about when i was looking at some ruger american rifles. Cabela's had a .270 for 329.00 I almost bought it but this version had molded sling swivels in the stock, and that was just to cheesy. The standard models were 400.00 and i just liked the stock better. So i passed , because I know where i can get the better version for 350.00. So i came home and started thinking that since i have 2 .308s already maybe the flatter shooting .270 was a better fit. So i grabbed the Nosler #7 reloaders book. And examined the 2 rounds. A 130 grain .277 caliber ballistic tip bullet has a .433 BC and gets about 3000, from a 22 inch barrel. A( little guess work on the velocity but darn close. The 150 grain Ballistic tip .308 BC is .435 Velocity is 2800 from a 22. Zeroed at 200 yards the .270 is 1.5 high at 100 ,and 6.7 low at 300. While the .308 is 1.8 inches high at 100 and 8 inches low at 300. So at 300 yards the difference is 1.3 inches. I think the .308 is just fine for me. Some of you guys are country boys and get lots more shooting done then i do. So you might be interested in longer distance hunting. But for this city boy, 300 yards is a long way. The .270 is a good round but the stubby little .308 is for all practical purposes just as good at 300 yards , and i think i will soon have a 3rd .308 in the safe...tj3006 | ||
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A fairer comparison is sight them both in 2" high at 100 yards and see how much drop they have and how much retained velocity, momentum and energy. I'm a big fan of the 150g Partitions in the 270 at 2900 fps. I think you'll find they shoot flatter and hit harder out past 250 yards. Inside that, it really doesn't make a difference. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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I think there is merit in you point. But I think for deer hunting a 150 grain partition is more bullet than needed. The 150 grain partition .270 has a BC of .465 witch is about .30 higher than the 150 grain .308 ballistic tip. And velocity is very close and if the guy with the .308 could go with a 165 grain bullet , and get a bit more power that way. But a cup and core 130 grain .270 or 150 grain .308 will kill a deer at 300 yards real well. There is little to separate them. I just like the .308 and the point of my post is the the trajectory difference is not enough to way much in the decision..tj3006 | |||
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JBM says: The 270 at 3000 fps with the 130 grain BT at 1.8" high at 100 yards will be 5.9" low at 300 yards The 308 at 2800 fps with the 150 grain BT at 1.8" high at 100 yards will be 8.1" low at 300 yards. So the difference would be 2.2" at 300 yards and 4.8" at 400 yards. (18.7" VS 23.5") Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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I thought most .308 Wins pushed a 150 closer to 2900 fps A fair comparison in always grain for grain .270 Win book fps with 150's vs .308 Win book fps 150's......same bullet type You will see very little difference at 300 ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Just an observation here, nothing more. Take a .270/.308 and .30-06 all loaded with 150 grain bullets same type/same manufacturer, and if sighted in properly, the shooter, nor the deer being shot will be able to discern any damn difference between the three. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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What is JBM ? And crazy horse i think agrees with me. However i Still think the 130 to 150 grain is the most valid comparison for me. That is the light weight bullet used most commonly in the 2 cartridges. The 150 grain .270 would compare to the 165 or 180 grain .308. | |||
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The 270 is a very fine cartridge, a little flatter shooting than the 308, maybe more versatile than the 308. I have one and it has not been out of the safe in several years. One of my 308's goes with me every time I go to the woods for deer or hogs. But that's just me. | |||
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I agree 100% ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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I like the .270 Win a little better, but that's because it was my first big game rifle other than a .243 Win. I've killed quite a few deer, elk, and pronghorn with it and it's yet to let me down. I never saw a need to buy a .308 Win after getting the .270 Win. | |||
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The fairest, practical comparison is sectional density, not grains. The sectional density will relate to relative momentum and penetration. Even though I like Elmer Keith's 338s, Jack O'Connor was correct about comparing bullets with similar SD's. That means that a 130grain .277" (.242 SD) is even better than a .308" 150 grain (.226 SD). See the list at http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_SD_list.htm For an equivalent SD, the .308 would need to go to 160 grains ! ! Also, it is disengenious to compare trajectories when set at different zero heights for 100 yards. The suggestion to set both to 2.0" at 100 yards will allow true comparisons. Otherwise, a person can always produce similar 300-yard drops by simply tolerating different heights at maximum arc. The fair comparison is with similar/same maximum heights. When using JBMballistics.com I set the "vital radius" to 2.1" thereby guaranteeing that the max high arc will only be 2.1". The bottom line is that the 270Win is flatter shooting. Personally, I would consider checking out the Barnes 129gn LRX. Even a 22" barrel should attain 3050-3125fps with several powders, expecially R17 (check out AmmoGuide). In fact, 129grain and 130 .277" bullets have trajectories that are so good that the 270Win can be considered a lightweight magnum. Jack O'Connor used to give quite reasonable advice, even though I prefer 338Win Mag for animals over 300 pounds. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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PS: there is one more caveat that is important when making comparisons. Cartridges have average power levels. The 270Win is about 2700ftlbs. The 308Win is about 2650ftlbs. The 30-06 is about 2800 ftlbs (But the 30-06 is loaded to lower pressures, so its comparative value is more like 2900ftlbs.). These should be kept in mind when evaluating book loads or claimed loads because there is a wide degree of discretionary difference between different sources. If someone is quoting a 270 load or 308 load that is around 2900-3000ftlbs. a lot of skepticism should be generated. If there are indeed special conditions that produce the special power levels, then the comparison loads and cartridges need to be in that same special framework. There are lots of claims and loads on line for the 30-06 that produce 3000 and 3100ftlbs. But 2900ftlbs is a better average level for comparison with other calibers. PPS: And one more caveat is that bullet technology changes comparisons, too. Monolithic bullets can usually reduce their SD about 10% and still attain similar effectiveness as cup-core bullets. That means that for elk and 270s, a 130 grain monolithic will be similar to the 150 grain lead core bullets. The 308 can use a 165 monolithic instead of a 180 lead core. For deer-size and less, a person can go down to a 110-120 grain monolithic .277" and a 130-145 grain .308" monolithic. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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It's called "splitting hairs". Either is a good cartridge, especially from 300 yards in, and the game won't know any difference. Get what you like. As your already evidently quite familiar with the 308 it might be the wise choice. It's also a matter of taste and I'll freely admit to a decided prejudice in favor of the 270. DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it | |||
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It's important to note the SD is something that changes on impact which is why bullet construction is more important. If SD the ratio of bore size to weight, once you get expansion the SD is in constant change throughout the animal. | |||
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Agreed. Bullet construction certainly affects penetration. One should assume same bullet construction for comparison. For example, Woodleighs tend to over-expand, so Woodleigh should be compared to Woodleigh. NP's tend to have a smaller frontal meplat, so compare NP to NP. AFrame to AFrame. Monometals: TTSX to TTSX, CEB to CEB, GSC to GSC, etc. The monometals like CEB, Barnes, GSC, etc. can be compared within themselves, though in general, a lighter bullet may be used for hunting and still guarantee sufficient penetration.
Absolutely true. They are both excellent cartridges, though their flight characteristics are slightly different and start showing up by 300 yards. That is also the distance where range finders are useful because an incorrect distance estimate of 25 or 50 yards can cause a miss or non-fatal wounding. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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As you are discovering, there's precious little difference in practical performance amongst cartridges that could be considered similar when it comes to normal hunting ranges. My advice is to focus on the rifle. Does it fit? Can you shoot it well? Do you like it? Would you marry it? We tend to focus on numbers, but they aren't the only factors. | |||
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JBM Ballistics is a website that has ballistic performance of various bullets according to the velocity, details and ambient conditions that you input. In my experience using it for load development and long range (1,000 yard) shooting it is very accurate. http://www.jbmballistics.com/c...bmtraj_drift-5.1.cgi
I was using the specifications from the original poster who set the velocities and the bullet types according to ballistic coefficients. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Lots of well thought out points here. The reason i used the trajectories i used was that i pretty much zero my rifles at 200 yards. Not the 45/70 or 30/30 , but most of them. Notice i said at 1st that everybody knows the .270 is flatter shooting, but buy how much. A common point in this thread is that at 300 yards the .308 and .270 are about the same. I ended up getting a ,243 anyway !...tj3006 | |||
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I have rifles in both calibers, an old Sako Forester in 308 and a model 70 in 270. As far as deer hunting goes it just doesnt matter, any differences in killing power and trajectory just dont have any real life meaning. I like the 308 better because it is lighter, shorter, and easier handling. But the 270 shoots Barnes X bullets better, and soon I will need to be lead-free, so they both stay. | |||
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The 243 is a great little caliber, too. You should find a lot of enjoyment. If you don't mind thinking out of the box, check out the GSC 69gn for deer-size game. A 3430 fps load is not hard to develop and it only drops -2.7" inches at 300 yards with a max arc of 2.1" above line of sight, and a 6.1" winddrift in 10mph crosswind. A screaming meanie of a pronghorn load. So for the record on 270 and 308, for the answer to "by how much (difference at 300 yards)?", I plug in the following: 129 grain LRX, 3070 fps (producing the average 2700ftlbs.), and using 2.1" as the max arc height above the line of sight (which happens to be 1.9" at 100 yards) will impact -4.5" low at 300 yards and 4000 ft elevation. 5.7" drift in 10mph crosswind, and 1836 remaining ftlbs. For comparison: 150 grain TTSX at 2825fps (producing 2657 ftlbs, approx. the average 2650 for the caliber) will print 2.0" at 100, stay within 2.1" max height, and will impact at -7.0" at 300 yards, with 7.0" winddrift in 10mph, and 1709 remaining ftlbs. So a hunter is giving up approximately 2.5" of extra drop, and 1.3" of potential windage at 300 yards. At 400 yards the drop is an extra -5.7" (270 -15.4" vs -21.1" .308 with same inputs, with 2.6" less winddrift in 270.)[Not too surprising, it is the 270, afer all.]. Could I hunt with that? Yes, absolutely. But personally, I don't call it the same. That is why we have different calibers. Every caliber and rifle is a packaged compromise. If someone were hunting pronghorn, they might consider the -2.5" or -5.7" difference "significant," but it is certainly nothing that prevents a 308 user from filling their tag. The 308 user needs to have the distance estimated a little more accurately and has less margin for error. Give me a tag and an airplane ticket and I would hunt with either one. Or borrow your 243! Happy New Year with the 243!!! +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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270 vs 308? well, as in many cases, the effective difference isn't the round or the gun, rather then shooter... whichever one you like better you will shoot better, all else being equal... opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Inside of 250 yards there isn't much difference in any cartridge from 223 to 45-70 for deer hunting. Narrowing it to between 25 to 35 caliber, even less. 270 to 308, none. If you like the 308, a 270 isn't going to be anything magic. OTOH if you like to play with new things... Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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 A Big 10-4. It would be the same if someone began with a 30-06.  rogerA Happy 2016 to all Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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If one handloads, the 150 gr. 308 and the 130 gr. .270 for all practical purposes are equal in every way, any difference is in ones imagination. You can read all your reloading books, and you will get confused but sooner or later, dependin on your smarts you realize the comparision is no more thatn a fairy tale to entertain gun nuts! If you were to actually use both you would never be able to tell any difference in any respect. Then add the 30-06 and the .280 to the equation and folks really get confused, angry, and will intimidate you, with threats of bodily harm as you attacked old betsy!.. But keep in mind that those violent posters load ole betsy with 60 grs. of BS., ya can't compete with that!  so keep your get away horse tied behind the barn..Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray, I have to respectfully disagree. My figures above went out of their way to use standard averages, without hotloading either the 270 or 308. As a handloader, I would pick the 270 over a 308 for an extended range (e.g. pronghorn) hunt, assuming equal accuracy and handling abilities for the rifles in question. In fact, for pronghorn, I'd probably choose either the 110 GSC or 110gn TTSX in the 270 (around 3400fps). And the thread starter can duplicate that with his 243, too. Monolithic bullet placement will kill the little pronghorn, not momentum or ftlbs or caliber. Would the 270 be a deal breaker? Of course not. But I like an extra 2.5" margin at 300 yards or 5.7" margin at 400. And if a handloader wants to lessen the difference by hotloading or sighting in higher, another person could reassert the difference by hotloading or sighting in higher. Back to normal: except for those ranges 300 and beyond, I agree that the 308 and 270 would be indistinguishable in hunting effectiveness, which means that they would be ndistinguishable in Africa. At this point, though, I would pass on the 243. Hey, I'd pass on the 270 and 308, too, not really wanting to walk a forest alone without at least a 338WM, 9.3, or more. That's just me, and I know you appreciate the 338 in basic Africa. So some say there is no difference between 270 and 308 and some say there is for long range, if one wants to make use of it. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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416, and all you guy,s thanks for making this such an informative thread. A couple of points i would like to make. The foot lbs are not part of the argument to me. Both rounds have plenty of power to kill even the biggest Mule deer at 300 yards. After 300 I don't shoot ! I just think at that point the deer wins. If i can't get closer i would probably pass. I guess for me its pretty sure that the .308 will do just fine. ...tj3006 | |||
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Practically there is no different in those two in the field. One can add a whole lot more cartridges to the list also. Range finders, multi reticle scopes make hitting at longer ranges a lot easier. Guessing and using Kentucky elevation a few inches can matter out pass 300 yards. I shoot a lot of different cartridges I sight almost all of then to be close to a 200 zero. Then I go hunting. | |||
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Yes, P dog, Kentucky windage seems to kick in around 300 yards. For clarification,TJ, I think that my citing of ftlbs above may have been mis-interpreted. As a cartridge sends a heavier and heavier bullet down field, the velocity will be slower. How much slower? The velocity for a particular bullet weight will produce approximately the same maximum muzzle energies for a cartridge unless at the extreme ends of the bullet choices or not using optimum powders. Basically, the ftlbs were cited and calculated in order to filter out unreasonable loads. The internet is full of false comparisons and the ftlbs were to verify that the loads cited for weight and velocity were "bonafide" They were bonafide, standard, expected, max loads. Everybody's mileage may differ a little bit but the comparisons were fair and common sense. It's a little trick I learned thirty years ago and even lets me double-check Quikload in my head. Sorry if that wasn't clear enough. In other words, standard max energy levels allow one to predict what a standard max velocity will be for a particular bullet weight and cartridge. (Superlong bullets deep into the powder base excepted.) It cuts down or flags potential BS. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Practical example: the 243 Win you just got. It is a 2000-1800ftlb. cartridge, depending on barrel lengths. You can pretty much calculate what a max load will be of a 70, 80 or 100 grain bullet, by plugging in velocities that produce the standard max energy. And of course, some bullets can be tweaked up and down from there. the 243 certainly has the power for deer hunting, out to 300 yards and MORE. Use a good bullet. It will take care of you. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Some time back, I looked at the trajectories of a variety of cartridges out to 300 yards as that is as far as I will typically shoot. I think the biggest difference in drop at 300 yards was around 4 inches. (Obviously, we're not talkin 45-70 or 30-30) All the hoopla around "flatter trajectory" of cartridge A over cartridge B out to 300 yards is largely just that...hoopla. I think the marketing claim of flatter trajectory has sold a lot of rifles over the years. Any decent shooter can compensate for their chosen caliber's trajectory out to 300 yards simply by sighting their rifle in at the appropriate distance to take full advantage of the trajectory and to actually know where your bullet will land at various distances. If the 270 lights your fuse...go for it. If the 308 trips your trigger...fire away. FWIW, I don't shoot either of those calibers and I have read (so it must be true) the 308 is inherently accurate. I can't say I've read that about the 270.  | |||
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416 Tanzan, No need to respectively disagree with me you did not!! Your post is correct in every respect and I respectively agree with you 100% That 2.5 inches your referred to was the crux of my post, I can flinch off or flinch on 2.5 inches at 300 yards, done it many times I suspect, so it just doesn't effect my antelope hunt'en! I do as well with the .308 as I do with the .270, 280, 30-06, 7x57, or any of that ilk of calibers...It only fails me on paper!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Better is better! but.... We're all splitting hairs so I'll use my 270 WSM and push my 130 BT at 3300 fps! There you have it. It really boils down to what you want to use and knowing the limitations of the cartridge, firearm, optics and shooter. I often hunt with my Contender in 30-30 with the 130 Speer hollow points just for fun and not because it's a better deer cartridge or rig than the two being discussed. Yes, the 270 win is better than the 308 Win within your parameters. .... but I have both, used both and love them both too. Zeke | |||
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Things are more similar than different....  | |||
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that is pretty. I'll take that 270 110TTSX for the pronghorn hunt. It only drops -8" (100 zero at 300 yard) with everything else double-digits (or burning more powder like the 270WSM and 7mmRM). The 243 80TTSX does well, too. But they would all work, as everyone acknowledges. The important, unspoken question: Is a rifle accurate, does it fit and handle well? +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Truth be told all hunting, on a world wide basis, could be done successfully and safely with 5 cartridges, or less. Today even the choice of those 5, or fewer, cartridges is a wide field for perusal. I've killed a lot of big game over my life. Not as much as many on here and perhaps less than most. Certainly not the variety of any who have hunted over the world. I have used enough different cartridges in different rifles from different era's, black powder and smokeless, to come to the conclusion that, for me, what sep called "hoopla" is about 150% correct. Then, as 16 bore pointed out, the similarities are greater than the differences. These days I can't, or won't, get all twisted up over differences of 200 fps, 150 fpe or 2 inches difference in drop at distance. If the rifleman does his part and the cartridge and bullet effective for the game pursued, no critter on earth will know the difference. Having used a fair representation of jacketed and cast bullets I have about the same opinion of them. One needs maybe 3 different bullets. I could be happy, and equally effective in the field, for the rest of my life shooting only cast. Howsomever....it would be one boring hobby if there was only 5 cartridges and 3 bullets. Get what piques your interest!! DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it | |||
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Jack O'Connor ALWAYS mentioned flat shooting when talking .270. In turn his readers did, whether they knew anything about it. My cousin told me how flat it shoots and he didn't even know how to sight it in. Apples to apples the 30-06 is flatter the first 500 yards and then the .270 takes over---in both distances we are splitting hairs. | |||
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I cut my hunting teeth reading Jack (and Elmer, too). Jack O'C compared bullets by sectional density, correctly in my opinion in cup-and-core days. His 130grain 270 (3100+) was flatter than a 150grain 30-06 (2900). AT 300, 400, and all the way. All the more for the 165 grain 30-06. Now I happen to know that a person can safely "hotload" the 150grain 30-06 up to 3000fps, where the flatness iincreases, though its still in the 270's favor. It seems that 270's are rated for 65k, but the 30-06 is asked to stop at 60k. Go figure! The 30-06 is a great calibre. As everybody knows, it has more options with heavier bullets than the 270, while the 270 can shoot similar sectional density lighter bullets faster and flatter. You choose what you want and go hunting. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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in all fairness to the late Jack O'Connor. Jack did a lot of defending the 270. He sang it's praises in doing so but truth tell and in print too he praised the 30-06 and the 300WM as well as others [257 Roberts]. Everyone has their preferences. For deer at any reasonable range the 308 will work. it has many different bullets to choose from. It also has lots of precision bullets . The 270 has been left out of the precision bullet business because no one competes with it. The 270 is a fine caliber and I still own a couple. The 280 is also good and does have some long range expertise with good projectiles. I have owned and used the 270, 280, 30-06 and 308 but my current favorite is the 6.5 Creedmoor. Any of them will do great if you use good bullets and put them in the correct place. There is no substitute for good bullet placement. Joe | |||
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Using the .308 is fine for 300 yards. Figures can be manipulated all you want. For example, If I use my .264WM with a 130 Accubond and push it 100 fps SLOWER than the 270 WSM with the 129LRX, I get virtually the same results. I am not going to quibble over two inches at 500 yards. Calculated Table Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead (yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA) 0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 3100.7 2.777 2774.8 0.000 0.0 *** 100 -0.0 -0.0 0.6 0.6 2898.0 2.596 2423.8 0.100 17.6 16.8 200 -2.6 -1.3 2.4 1.2 2704.4 2.422 2110.8 0.207 36.5 17.4 300 -10.1 -3.2 5.6 1.8 2519.0 2.256 1831.3 0.322 56.7 18.1 400 -22.9 -5.5 10.3 2.5 2341.1 2.097 1581.7 0.446 78.5 18.7 500 -42.2 -8.1 16.7 3.2 2170.3 1.944 1359.4 0.579 101.9 19.5 Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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