I do not think I have ever heard of a rifle barrel shooting out in 50 rounds.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
I do not think I have ever heard of a rifle barrel shooting out in 50 rounds.

Must be a typo. 5000 is more like a garand barrel service life. Low end.

50 with a .22-378 ES, maybe.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Not only will a 308 Win be much more accurate than a 30/06 but it's accuracy life is much longer.A 30/06 is a bit like a 300WM.Like a 300WM it is very accurate for the first 50 or so rounds then it all goes to shit.A 308 has phenomenal accuracy from the start much better than a 30/06 and it stays very accurate for over 1000 rds unless you toast the hell out of it.

there's just so many things wrong with this post

quote:

Originally posted by sep:
What level of accuracy at 100 yards would be typical or expected of a bolt action 30-06? Put another way, what size groups should I expect at 100 yards? I'm relatively new to this caliber and am just seeking some idea of what to realistically expect from those who have been there, done that.

I made a 30.06 on a 1909 Arg. action Brownells cheap short chambered & threaded barrel (douglas) #2 cont. A few thousand rounds later will still group 3 rds touching, nice little clover leaf @ 100yds 165g Barnes XFB. This or that round is more accurate is pure inexperience internet BULLSHIT. The .308 win was developed because it had less recoil Period.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Not only will a 308 Win be much more accurate than a 30/06 but it's accuracy life is much longer.A 30/06 is a bit like a 300WM.Like a 300WM it is very accurate for the first 50 or so rounds then it all goes to shit.A 308 has phenomenal accuracy from the start much better than a 30/06 and it stays very accurate for over 1000 rds unless you toast the hell out of it.

Might want to loosen that chin strap on your helmet, Your brain might need a little more blood flow son

quote:

The .308 win was developed because it had less recoil Period.

Less recoil, comparable ballistics, smaller case/lighter weight rounds meant more rounds could be carried per person, etc. etc. etc were reasons for the development of the .308.

The highly unlikely "Possibility" of a .30-06, "Shooting It's Barrel Out In 50 Rounds" was PROBABLY never considered.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Not only will a 308 Win be much more accurate than a 30/06 but it's accuracy life is much longer.A 30/06 is a bit like a 300WM.Like a 300WM it is very accurate for the first 50 or so rounds then it all goes to shit.A 308 has phenomenal accuracy from the start much better than a 30/06 and it stays very accurate for over 1000 rds unless you toast the hell out of it.

there's just so many things wrong with this post

Indeed. I have a Garand of ~ 4.5Million serial Number (post Korean War) with original barrel- shoots 1-1/2" groups all day long.

I call bullshit.

I guess I need to throw my 300 WM's away or realize that I really have a couple of Blunderbusts. I have gone well beyond 50rds probably times 10 or 15 maybe 20. I really don't exactly know but I shoot my weapons and can still touch them. That is no BS!

quote:

Originally posted by Dulltool17:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Not only will a 308 Win be much more accurate than a 30/06 but it's accuracy life is much longer.A 30/06 is a bit like a 300WM.Like a 300WM it is very accurate for the first 50 or so rounds then it all goes to shit.A 308 has phenomenal accuracy from the start much better than a 30/06 and it stays very accurate for over 1000 rds unless you toast the hell out of it.

there's just so many things wrong with this post

Indeed. I have a Garand of ~ 4.5Million serial Number (post Korean War) with original barrel- shoots 1-1/2" groups all day long.

I call bullshit.

Today on AR I learned that a 3006 is good for about 50 rounds, but a 308 is good for well over a 1000! Absolute Gold....you can't buy knowledge like that..no sir!

Well, if a .30-06 with a un shot out barrel groups worse than 2" for 5 shots at 100, it gets a new barrel or is gotten rid of, there is something wrong with it.

Personally, IMO, the cartridge a rifle is chambered in has no difference in accuracy that I can see. There is no such thing as "an inherently accurate cartridge," just better made rifles and components.

Strangely enough, the best accuracy I have ever had with a sporter was in .375 H&H... hardly an expected outcome.

quote:

Originally posted by tsturm:
....BULLSHIT. The .308 win was developed because it had less recoil Period.

yeah.. no ... it was developed ..... to be the commercial version of the military 7.62x51 - which was developed exclusively for the m14 / m60

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

Strangely enough, the best accuracy I have ever had with a sporter was in .375 H&H... hardly an expected outcome.

I have has that with the 375 and most noticeably back in late 60s and 70s.

I am only guessing but I think one reason is bullets back then were not so good and as a result the round nose shot better as did the semi spitzers.

But in general I think there are a couple of other things that help the big bore. Firstly, on average the shooter is not as velocity minded and tied up with ballistic coefficients and thus has wider load range and often at lower pressure. For reasons which I have never been able to explain rifles with suspect bedding will often shoot well with backed off loads.

Also, the big bore is not usually tested to the extent of the small bore. Lastly a given group size simply looks much better with a big bore. A 1 inch group with a 17 looks like shit but with a 458 it looks like a one holer

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by tsturm:
....BULLSHIT. The .308 win was developed because it had less recoil Period.

yeah.. no ... it was developed ..... to be the commercial version of the military 7.62x51 - which was developed exclusively for the m14 / m60

quote:

Originally posted by tsturm:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by tsturm:
....BULLSHIT. The .308 win was developed because it had less recoil Period.

yeah.. no ... it was developed ..... to be the commercial version of the military 7.62x51 - which was developed exclusively for the m14 / m60

And because we were the big boys on the block and were able to dictate to the free world what we thought was the best military cartridge should be.

Most likely we would have been better off with the British offing at the time a 276 caliber I believe.

But we had to have another 30 cal. and ended up with the 5.56 Now we are talking about something like a 6.8.

The same with the 06 when the grand was developed. Pederson wanted a magazine fed 276 but the powers to be said 30-06 and clip feed.

Our guys did a great job with a 8 shot semi auto but most likely been better served with a higher capacity magazine feed arm.

But that is JMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by tsturm:

love and respect to you brother

I have owned several 308's, 30.06's and 300WM's. In general the 308 was the most accurate, the 300WM next, and then the 30.06. Now, these are sporting rifles, but the accuracy standards, for me, are sub MOA. My go to rifle for all purposes would be my Tikka in 300WM. Great shooting and great looking!
Now, having said that, I have an AR style rifle in 308 which shoots sub MOA out to 300 yards, the farthest I have shot it so far.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by tsturm:

love and respect to you brother

10-4

You never know. My three sons and I all shoot 30-06. All riles are either Ruger 77's (4) or Winchester M70's (2).

I'd say all shoot around 1.5" with Federal target ammo. Realistically, they all shoot better than we can hold. All better than required for sportsmanlike hunting (IMO within 300 yards).

Interesting is that the most accurate is an older push feed M70 they used to make. It is an entry level model they used to make with a birch stock. I replaced the stock with a cheap (ramline?) synthetic stock and it was an honest sub MOA rifle. I used it at a two day shooting class run by an ex Navy Seal. He couldn't believe how such a cheap rifle shot so well. He shot it after every session of training. I feared he wouldn't give it back!

I think sometimes you just get lucky and everything just fits well (Barrel, action, bolt) on the rifle you buy off the rack.

BTW my experience is at odds with shootaway.

quote:

BTW my experience is at odds with shootaway.

From what I see from the responses, most folks experiences differ from shootaway's!

Top is my best 5-shot group at 100 meters with my Sauer 202. Below, follows a mix of targets shot with different loads.

quote:

Top is my best 5-shot group at 100 meters with my Sauer 202. Below, follows a mix of targets shot with different loads

No matter how many targets one posts some would say you can't do it again.

quote:

Originally posted by Andre Mertens:




Top is my best 5-shot group at 100 meters with my Sauer 202. Below, follows a mix of targets shot with different loads.

Nice shooting and nice groups Andre
I have a couple 30/06's that are extremely accurate and I can't imagine a .308 could somehow be "more" accurate.
When I've posted some of my groups on here the naysayers came out of the woodwork basically saying I faked them....
What a bunch we have here sometimes!

For what it's worth my sons and I have very few hunting rifles that group over an inch and a half and most are at or under an inch when we are on our target shooting game. Our 30/06's are expected to shoot at that level.
The load that works in all of them is 56 grains of IMR 4350 and 180 grain Sierra SPBT.
165 grain bullets seem to shoot well with 57.5 grains of Reloader 17 for our 'o6's

The best group I have shot in the 50+ years at this was with an '06. Not even mine. Schoolmate of my daughter wanted a rifle so we went to Dicks and picked up a 110 action Sav w/Bushnell 3-9X. Kid fired it few times then let me try. Used my std 180 gr loading, heads pushed out for my 54s and 70s. Saw first hole, then couldn't figure out where the others went. In the end had a .40 caliber hole.

Yeah, I know, one group. What are the chances that rifle can't shoot though? About zero I'd say.

I did tell him not to ever sell that rifle.......unless to me........

"Not only will a 308 Win be much more accurate than a 30/06 but it's accuracy life is much longer.A 30/06 is a bit like a 300WM.Like a 300WM it is very accurate for the first 50 or so rounds then it all goes to shit.A 308 has phenomenal accuracy from the start much better than a 30/06 and it stays very accurate for over 1000 rds unless you toast the hell out of it."

What a bunch of non-sense.

It's like the on-going debate about the accuracy of a .222 versus a .223. I have shot both, I have shot both in competition and one would have to be a better shot than me to find a consistant difference.

I own a Sauer 202 in .30-06 and 2 .308 Win (a Rem 700 Police and a custom Ruger 77 VT with a Lothar Walther Match bbl.) and, with a slight advantage for the latter, their accuracy is comparable. Also, I have a 03A3 which shoots MOA with its issue iron sights.

quote:

Originally posted by sep:
What level of accuracy at 100 yards would be typical or expected of a bolt action 30-06? Put another way, what size groups should I expect at 100 yards? I'm relatively new to this caliber and am just seeking some idea of what to realistically expect from those who have been there, done that.

With todays ammo and higher quality factory guns, you should expect/demand 1" MOA or better.

I have a new Win Model 70 .30-06 and it shot 2" with factory ammo (tried only a few types), then found a 1" MOA brand and now have it at 1/2" with handloads (168gr TSX by the way) and really like it.

At the end of the day (SACRILEDGE COMING!) I really do not see any difference between a .270, .280. 7mm Mag, .308 or a .30-06 - they are work. Through in a .300 H&H or .300WM too for that matter.

quote:

At the end of the day (SACRILEDGE COMING!) I really do not see any difference between a .270, .280. 7mm Mag, .308 or a .30-06 - they are work. Through in a .300 H&H or .300WM too for that matter.

I do not see anything sacrilegious with that statement. In fact, I will add that any critter shot with any of those calibers won't be able to tell the difference.

Anyone noticed Phil has not gotten involved in this silly shit !

Speedys' results on Accurate shooter are pretty definitive ALSO .

I think some folks just want to demonstrate to Shootaway that other folks mileage varies from his.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sep:
At the end of the day (SACRILEDGE COMING!) I really do not see any difference between a .270, .280. 7mm Mag, .308 or a .30-06 - they are work. Through in a .300 H&H or .300WM too for that matter.

Take that from 6.5mm to 8mm -- they all do about the same job, about the same way .. the 318 8x57 mauser still kills everything it's supposed to, today, and it is the first of the .473 casehead, great grand daddy of them all ... and for everything for "normal" hunting (under 400lb, under 400 yards) it just plain works .. everything else is ford vs chevy

I own both 308 and 30-06 rifles and have for years. It never occurred to me that there was any real difference in the accuracy of these rifles. When I found the right load combination with the rifle properly tuned I had no problems getting better than MOA with either cartridge. I like the 308 better for light rifles and the 30-06 better for standard sporters.

Accuracy vs precision:
Accuracy = ability to hit the target
Precision = ability to consistently hit a spot on a target

Some cartridges are more precise than other cartridges ( precise in terms of narrowing intershot variations in velocity ) ( caliber is not a indication of precision)

If we assume that the gun action and barrel is mounted correctly and the bullet seating is optimal in terms of concentricity , and we have competent shooter then based on the physical aspects of the ballistics cycle some cartridges give higher precision than others.

The concept of piezometric efficiency as coined by Serge Zaroodny formerly of the Aberdeen proving ground speaks to this issue of precision.

Piezometric efficiency of the gun is defined as he average pressure of the ballistics cycle to the peak pressure of the cycle. This means a pressure time curve that is shifted to the right or to the left. A high Pe will have a high barrel pressure relative to peak pressure and a low Pe has a low barrel pressure relative to the peak pressure.

Conventional guns have peak pressure limit determined by gun / case strength.

For small arms this limit is usually set based on what a case can safely tolerate without failure.

If the Pe increases it means that mean barrel pressure increases. This gives higher velocities but greater intershot variance ( undesirable)

This is achieved by shifting the position of all burnt closer to the muzzle.

In conventional guns we see this in practice when tank guns are compared to long distance howitzers. A typical tank gun by design is a high velocity flat fire gun where high velocity is desirable over precision. Long range howitzers on the other hand rely on small intershot variations, typically they have pressure time curves shifted to the left

Based on this concept and fact we see that overbore cartridges shooting slow powders typically achieve high velocities but exhibit greater intershot variance in velocity data as compared to cartridges where the powder is burnt close to the breach.

This concept is not new , it is a standard concept utilized in conventional gun design over the years and across all major conflicts and wars of our time.

It underlies the "modern" trend where some ammo makers are producing "super performance" ammo and powders. What they are doing is to add retardants and coatings to their propellants that shifts the pressure time curve to the right.


Based on this we will see for instance that precision will differ when say a 168g gr 308 bullet is fired from a 308, 30-06, 300WSM, 300 Win, 300 RUM

Same bullet but subjected to a differing time pressure time curve profile.

This why certain cartridges shine in the benchrest game and other not so much.

Interesting ALF. But how big are the effects and how should it impact load development?

Unmodified guns, standard loads and regular shooters probably overshadow any significant differences. I have several guns that outshoot me so I must conclude that either I'm not good enough, or that you can get excellent precision with several calibres.

Without knowing it we actually do it when we do load development ! This is in essence the way our guns work without us realizing it or even thinking on it.

There are two efficiencies of conventional guns.
The one is termed ballistic ( energy) efficiency and the other piezometric efficiency ( as expressed by the Abel-Noble curve named after Niels Henrik Abel a Norwegian mathematician and Noble )

Energy efficiency is simply the ratio of kinetic energy of the bullet to the total energy of the primer and load.

We see that in our ballistics system the best case scenario gives us a ballistic efficiency of about .33 ( only a 1/3 of the total energy contained in our system ends up as kinetic energy )

If we increase the total energy by making the case bigger and bigger as for instance in a cartridge line up for the same bullet the gain in velocity is not linear, it actually decreases exponentially thus the ballistic efficiency gets smaller and smaller, but then the piezometric efficiency goes up. So whilst we are gaining velocity we give away on precision.

As I have said its not by chance that those who play the precision game in shooting all end up with the same cartridge class in terms of basic internal ballistics principles.

On a historical front this concept underpinned the ballistics problem faced by the allies in WW2 when confronted by Axis armour of superior quality housing a ballistically superior 88mm gun. The Allies improved the ballistics of their existing anti tank guns by manipulating the charge to this principle.

Maybe we need a refresher as to why this discussion went the direction it has.

quote:

Not only will a 308 Win be much more accurate than a 30/06 but it's accuracy life is much longer.A 30/06 is a bit like a 300WM.Like a 300WM it is very accurate for the first 50 or so rounds then it all goes to shit.A 308 has phenomenal accuracy from the start much better than a 30/06 and it stays very accurate for over 1000 rds unless you toast the hell out of it.

There really was no discussion about the parameters that Could affect either calibers accuracy, just a statement that seems to be thrown out as a Fact.

??? No the opening statement asked what accuracy could be expected from a 30-06 as a cartridge.

The odd nonsense about accuracy going to shit after 50 shots was a unnecessary diversion into a fantasy world of shooting with football helmets as protection

You are correct, concerning the Opening statement.

However if you will review the entire discussion a good bit of it revolved around the response I quoted that Shootaway made.

quote:

The odd nonsense about accuracy going to shit after 50 shots was a unnecessary diversion into a fantasy world of shooting with football helmets as protection

Your statement above merely illustrates what many folks were trying to point out.

The reason why the 308 Win is much more accurate is because it does not stress the bore as much.When shooting only a few 300 Win mag rounds near max you can look down you bore from the chamber end and see part of the throat disappear.That is steel you shot down the bore along with the bullet.Your are more likely to shoot steel down the bore with a 30/06 than a 308 Win.