What level of accuracy at 100 yards would be typical or expected of a bolt action 30-06? Put another way, what size groups should I expect at 100 yards? I'm relatively new to this caliber and am just seeking some idea of what to realistically expect from those who have been there, done that.

It depends entirely on the rifle. "All other things equal" the 30-06 is supposed to be slightly less accurate than newer cartridges such as the 308 and cartridges developed specifically for match use. But for the average sporter from a bench, well supported, I'd expect grouping to approach an inch at 100 yards.

My usual hunting partner bought a Winchester Model 70 a few years back, it shot about 1.75" groups at 100 yards with factory ammunition. Your mileage may vary...

A .30-06 is as accurate as your gun will shoot them.

quote:

4525 October 2017 08:45What level of accuracy at 100 yards would be typical or expected of a bolt action 30-06

There is no typical accuracy for any cartridge.

There are way to many variables in shooting to say such.

If you buy a off the shelve rifle and shoot factory ammo in it. Then you shoot groups 1.75 or better inches you have a very useable hunting rifle.

If you get one the does under an inch you have a really nice shooting rifle.

If you get one that does 3/4 or better consider your self very lucky.

I have 7 or 8 06s in the house the best is a solid 3/4 inch with match ammo the worse is 1.75.

For years the 1.75 inch gun was my main hunting rifle I killed a lot of game with it.

there'a three major things at play here

1: the rifle -- in my case, most of the rifles in my case have a higher inherent accuracy than i can shoot them, on any given day -- but i've had a couple that just wouldn't group (m1 carbines are notorious) -- (btw, i am including trigger, sights/scope/bedding in this category)

2: ammo - accuracy and/or precision can change from brand and lot of ammo .. i have a long story, which i'll make short, of a gent i guided for that carried 14 rounds of ammo ... 4 in the gun, and FIVE different bullet weights on a hip pouch - and each night, at the camp fire, would pontificate FOR HOURS about the use and purpose of each round, the impact difference, etc etc ...to bring the story to an abrupt end, i didn't have to clean any animals that hunt

3: most important, the loose nut on the trigger, being the shooter --- even my 2" grouping rifles CAN have a 3" group, if i don't do my part - i am including shooting position, shooter factors/excitement/hold, and everything else the shooter does here

all that being said, i would expect anything from 1/2" to 2" from a decent 30-06 bolt action rifle, with decent ammo -- federal gold medal is great ammo, usually -- but good ole green box core-lokt usually delivers good results

i am usually happy with a rifle that can do 2" groups with core-lokt, before it's worked on, or off the shelf ...a little load development, perhaps bedding, and a look at the scope mounts and scope itself can improve that...


if you want the BEST chance at an moa rifle or better, off the shelf, with no real gunsmithing, shooting factory ammo, a savage with accutrigger would be my goto rifle

The 30-06 has won countless matches at Camp Perry, Wimbledon and the like.
As others have said, the rifle has a lot more to do with group size than the cartridge and the shooter even more.
That said with my loads, a good quality rifle with optics, and a little tweaking I expect sub MOA.

Great advice already given.

I have several different calibers of rifles and really like my A-Bolt 30-06.
I would expect 1/2" groups. But, some guns will not do this, regardless.

I would should a few different types ammunition (brand and grain). You should be able to get a
good idea of what works well.

Practice and time!

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:
My usual hunting partner bought a Winchester Model 70 a few years back, it shot about 1.75" groups at 100 yards with factory ammunition. Your mileage may vary...

Indeed. Mine from the “bad” era of Winchester just before they closed shoots factory Federal 180 TSX less than .75.

Thank you all for relating your experience with the 30-06. I appreciate it.

My Tikka T3 held 1/2 MOA groups with a 6x42 Leupold and 155 gr Lapua Scenars. Furthest I shot it was 505. Impressive.

Using factory ammo, if your "off the shelf" rifle will keep groups under 2", be happy and go kill stuff.. BTW, check the lot number on your ammo box and buy several boxes with the same lot number.

Sep, calibers are calibers and as one writer pointed out the 30-06 has been used for target shooting for over a hundred years. After the 308 became standardized as a military round and used by most, there were still a few top shooters who maintained and used both calibers because they were convinced the 30-06 gave them an edge at the longer ranges.
I have a light weight 30-06 hunting rifle built by Jim Borden that will shoot 1/4 moa groups, which is a lot better than I can do on most days.

I have 3 different 30-06s and depending on the handload will shoot .3 to 1.25 groups.

It's about the quality of the rifle and the ammo.

Thank you all again. It sounds like the old aught six can shoot some small groups. Smaller than I expected.

quote:

Originally posted by sep:
Thank you all again. It sounds like the old aught six can shoot some small groups. Smaller than I expected.

i expect that it could actually shoot even smaller groups --- but it's not generally used as benchrest gun, as it burns more powder/more recoil than is needed for 100 yard shoots ---even in hunter class

there is no reason that the same techniques used for a 30ppc or 308br couldn't result in the same level of accuracy in a 30-06 --

i can't think of a case that in inherently inaccurate -- there are some that are much more efficient is converting powder to power --- even my example of a 30 carbine is a failing of the guns design specs ...

even seen a 30-30 in a 10" contender, with iron sights, shoot 1/4" groups?

My oldest son has my Remington model 700 that would reliably shoot .25 MOA on a calm day with my handload when supported from a bench. This was my favorite rifle until I gave each of my (adult) kids one of my rifles. He begged it from me. LOL

As you can see, in cyberspace, your groups can be what you want them to be. I hope you didn't get any false expectations.

sep

I have a 30-06 that shoots anywhere from .4 to 2.00 for 3 shot groups totally dependent on what I feed it. Actually the caliber has little bearing on how accurate your rifle might be.

Mark

I like how Jack O'Conner wrote about it in his book The Hunting rifle. he said he had 2-3 very accurate 30-06 rifles that he could 'count on" to shoot 1.5", 3 shot groups. Somedays they would shoot smaller, a great deal smaller, but that "he could not count on them to do that consistently". Through the years, that has been my own observation, meaning "on average" an 1.5" group is very very good...with anything really. Benchrest techiques, experience, wing, temperature, it all figures in.

I would add two things.

Firstly calibres in the same general category, say from 270 Win through 300 Win will have virtually identical accuracy potential, assuming a correctly bedded rifle, top barrel and no issues with scope/mounts and reloaded ammunition.

But change that to an out of the box rifle and factory ammo and one rifle/calibre might shoot 1 inch groups and another might shoot 3 inch groups.

Secondly, in my experience calibres with a larger case capacity in relation to bore size than the 30/06 such as the 270 and 300 Win are more likely to shoot different loads to a similar point. This can be relevant when you factor in different lots and different brands of ammo.

The 270 is good in this respect as it is helped by a slower "pitch" of twist. Although the 27 and 30/06 are both 1 in 10 inch twists being a smaller bore the pitch of the 270 twist is slower. Think of this way...imagine a 1 in 10 inch twist in a 16 " Naval gun, that would be like a thread

Thank you all again for relating your experiences with the 30-06. Below, is an article I read about the 30-06 which prompted my original question.

Accuracy Facts

.308 Winchester versus .30-06 Springfield

By Bart Bobbitt

Seems to me that any time there's more metal contacting the bullet, the greater [the] chance that more variables come into play. Besides, folks who shoot highpower rifles the most accurate[ly] have very little case neck tension on the bullet anyway.

It's really easier to have uniform case neck tension by having it light in the first place; neck length doesn't come into play when this is how it's done. And ammo that's been handloaded [which is] then let set for several weeks or months will have a greater release force needed with long necks because of dissimilar materials bonding between bullet jacket and case neck/fouling. There's more area to bond when longer necks are used.

All that aside, lets go back to when the .30-06 and .308 were the only cartridges allowed in NRA match rifle matches. Both cartridges were used in barrels of equal quality as well as the same action and stocks by several top shooters in the USA. Both cartridges were used in matches at ranges from 100 through 1000 yards. Many thousands of rounds were fired in both types. Bullets from 168 through 200 grains were used with several powder, case and primer combinations.

In comparing accuracy between the .308 and .30-06, folks who used each quickly agreed on one thing: .308s were two to three times more accurate than the .30-06. In the early 1960s, it was also observed that competitors with lower classifications using .308s were getting higher scores than higher classified folks using .30-06s; at all ranges. By the middle to late 1960s, all the top highpower shooters and virtually all the rest had switched to the .308. The Highpower Committee had received so many complaints of ties not being able to be broke between shooters using the .308 and shooting all their shots in the tie-breaking V-ring, something had to be done to resolve this issue. In 1966, the NRA cut in half the target scoring ring dimensions.

At the peak of the .30-06's use as a competition cartridge, the most accurate rifles using it would shoot groups at 200 yards of about 2 inches, at 300 of about 3 inches. The 600-yard groups were 6 to 7 inches and at 1000 yards about 16 inches. As the high-scoring ring in targets was 3 inches at 200 and 300 yards, 12 inches at 600 and 20 inches at 1000, the top scores fired would have 90+ percent of the shots inside this V-ring.

Along came the 7.62mm NATO and its commercial version; the .308 Winchester. In the best rifles, 200 yard groups were about 3/4ths inch, at 300 about 1-1/2 inch. At 600 yards, groups were about 2-1/2 inch and at 1000 about 7 to 8 inches. It was not very long before the .30-06 round no longer won matches nor set any records; all it's records were broken by the .308 by a considerable margin. Some accuracy tests at 600 yards with the .308 produced test groups in the 1 to 2 inch range. These were 20 to 40 shot groups. No .30-06 has ever come close to shooting that well.

At 1000 yards, where both the .30-06 and .308 were allowed in Palma matches, the .308 was the clear-cut most accurate of the two. If top shooters felt the .30-06 was a more accurate round, they would have used it - they didn't. In fact by the early 1970s, the scoring ring dimensions on the 800 - 1000 yard target were also cut in about half due to the accuracy of both the .308 Win. over the .30-06 and the .30-.338 over the .300 H&H when used in long range matches.

Most top highpower shooters feel the main reason the .308 is much more accurate than the .30-06 is its shorter, fatter case promotes more uniform and gentle push on the bullet due to a higher loading density (less air space) and a more easily uniformly ignitable powder charge.

Military arsenals who produced match and service ammo in both 7.62mm and 30 caliber have fired thousands of test rounds/groups with both. They also found out that with both ammo types, the smallest groups were with the 7.62 by about 50 to 60 percent. M1 rifles in 7.62 shot about twice as small of groups as .30 M1s at all ranges. When the M14 was first used, there were some .30-06 M1 rifles that would shoot more accurately. It took the service teams several years to perfect the methods of making M14s shoot well, but when they did, they shot as good as M1s in 7.62.

There will always be folks who claim the .30-06 is a more accurate cartridge. All I have to say to them is to properly test .308 vs. .30-06 and find out. Theory is nice to think about; facts determine the truth.

That's an interesting piece and I don't doubt the results they got but the folks I knew who preferred the 30-06 for longer range were not new to shooting. Some were on the presidents one hundred, but there contention was the fact that the extra velocity of the 30-06gave them an edge in the wind at long range.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
That's an interesting piece and I don't doubt the results they got but the folks I knew who preferred the 30-06 for longer range were not new to shooting. Some were on the presidents one hundred, but there contention was the fact that the extra velocity of the 30-06gave them an edge in the wind at long range.

And they may have been right. I'm still not moving to a 308 as I like the ability of the 30-06 to shoot heavier bullets faster. Your own experience with it shooting Brownies with 200 or 220 grain Noslers is impressive.

Interesting article. But realistically what difference does it make in a hunting rifle? Your likely not shooting at 600 or at 1000 yards anyway even if there was any real field reproducible advantage.

There's more to choosing a hunting cartridge than what it does on a target range. Most cartridge choices will never see any time in competition but that doesn't mean they aren't effective at what they were designed to do. Just about any cartridge has enough accuracy for hunting, the question is the gun accurate enough and most important is the shooter?

if you made a bench gun on 308 and one in 30/06 you would not want to make too much of a bet on the 308.....or the 30/06...as to which on was the most accurate.

However, if made 50 rifles in each calibre then a bet on the 308 would be the safe bet.. but the difference very small.

It's like the 222 and 6mm PPC. The PPC is the choice but if a bloke entered a bench match with a 222 he would not come last.

The difference in accuracy between calibres in the same general category is extremely small to say the least and will take a few rifles to show a difference.

On the other hand and excluding target shooting the 30/06 can have advantage.

Let's say you are happy to have 2650 f/s with 180 grainers and 2850 f/s with 150 grainers. The 30/06 (assuming equal rifle setups)will have the advantage over the 308 and simply because the range of loads/powder types you can use are far wider than the 308.

In the case of the 308 your top accuracy loads will be limited to the velocities a 308 can achieve but lots of room to move with a 30/06 for those ballistics.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
Interesting article. But realistically what difference does it make in a hunting rifle? Your likely not shooting at 600 or at 1000 yards anyway even if there was any real field reproducible advantage.

There's more to choosing a hunting cartridge than what it does on a target range. Most cartridge choices will never see any time in competition but that doesn't mean they aren't effective at what they were designed to do. Just about any cartridge has enough accuracy for hunting, the question is the gun accurate enough and most important is the shooter?

I couldn't agree more. The author alleges the 30-06 produces 2 inch groups at 200 yards while the 308 could produce 3/4 inch groups at the same distance. That's a significant difference in group size but I don't hunt any big game animals which couldn't cleanly be taken with a rifle capable of shooting two inch groups at 200 yards.

The more I explore the 30-06 and read about others' experiences, the more I like it. It just seems like a practical cartridge for a variety of big game. Thank you all again for sharing your experiences.

Mismatch of nominal COAL, bullet design, throating, and box magazine limitations hamstrung a number of older (some not so old) cartridges. Often there is greater relative benefit from rifle-tailored handloads for such rounds than obtains with more modern chamberings like 6.5 Creedmoor and 7mm-08. (I said "relative")

With regard to '06, and as noted already, if you can't make a 165-180 gr load shoot using 4350 - and seating to engage 0.010" or so off the lands - well, there's prolly no point continuing.

Every '06 I've messed with shot plenty good enough for practical field use on deer-sized and larger stuff with at least one factory load. They usually do a heckuva lot better than "good enough" with tailored loads. My M-54 (1934) is quite capable of sub-1" at 100 yds fpr 5 with 180s seated out.

quote:

Originally posted by sep:

I couldn't agree more. The author alleges the 30-06 produces 2 inch groups at 200 yards while the 308 could produce 3/4 inch groups at the same distance. That's a significant difference in group size but I don't hunt any big game animals which couldn't cleanly be taken with a rifle capable of shooting two inch groups at 200 yards.

That is bullshit, at least in equal guns and appropriate loads for each.

I have had both calibres on switch barrel bench gun and as I said above you would need several guns to show a difference and the difference would be small in the extreme.

However, one area where the 308 can come up better and in terms of ease of accuracy and general consistency is they are often 1 in 12 twists instead of 1 in 10 twist.

I have used 1 in 13 and 1 in 14 in both calibres.

It is not without reason that target/bench rifles use the slowest twist rates possible.

[/QUOTE]

That is bullshit, at least in equal guns and appropriate loads for each.

I have had both calibres on switch barrel bench gun and as I said above you would need several guns to show a difference and the difference would be small in the extreme.

However, one area where the 308 can come up better and in terms of ease of accuracy and general consistency is they are often 1 in 12 twists instead of 1 in 10 twist.

I have used 1 in 13 and 1 in 14 in both calibres.

It is not without reason that target/bench rifles use the slowest twist rates possible.[/QUOTE]

To complicate the accuracy question further, German Salazar would agree with you. See article below.

April 18th, 2011
.308 Win vs. .30-06 — Match Results May Surprise You

http://bulletin.accurateshoote...ts-may-surprise-you/

The .308 Winchester, a shortened version of the .30-06, has almost completely replaced the .30-06 in NRA competition. The .308 is required for Palma shooting, so it is also used by many Palma competitors in other long-range and mid-range prone matches. However, with the exception of M1 Garand matches, you won’t see many .30-06 rifles on the firing lines. Does that mean the .30-06 is obsolete? Is the .308 Win really much more accurate? Or does it just offer the advantages of reduced recoil and reduced powder consumption?

.308 Win vs. .30-06

In his Sibling Rivalry: .308 vs. .30-06 article on the Rifleman’s Journal site, German Salazar argues that the .30-06 remains a viable competition cartridge, particularly for the long-range game. This isn’t just a subjective opinion. German has data to back up the argument that the .30-06 can still do the job.

German compares the actual scores produced by his .308 Win rifles with the scores from his .30-06 rifles. German analyzes scores, over a two-year period, shot by “matched pair” rifles (one in each caliber) with similar actions, stocks, sights, and barrels. For comparison purposes, German also includes score data from his 6XC, a modern low-recoil chambering.

.308 Win vs. .30-06

RESULTS: .308 Has Small Edge at Middle Distance, But .30-06 Is Better at Long Range
Surprisingly, the .30-06 performed nearly as well as the .308 at middle distances. The .30-06 delivered 99.2% of max possible scores vs. 99.5% for the .308 Win. Notably, at 1000 yards, the .30-06 racked up 97.7% of max scores vs. 97.3% for the .308 Win. So, at 1000 yards, the .30-06 actually proved superior to the .308 Win. German explains: “This isn’t too surprising when one considers [the .308’s] limited case capacity for the bullet weights typically used in Long-Range shooting. They just run out of steam and dip perilously close to the transonic range as they approach 1000 yards of flight. The extra 150 fps or so that can be safely obtained from the .30-06 case really pays off at 1000 yards.”

Mid-Range Comparison
In NRA Mid-Range matches (500 and 600 yards), the average score and percentage of possible score for each cartridge was as follows:

.308 – 597-36X (99.5%), 960 rounds fired
6XC – 596-35X (99.3%),1260 rounds fired
.30-06 – 595-31X (99.2%), 2580 rounds fired

If we look at the score averages, the .308 comes out on top at the Mid-Range distances… by 0.3% of the possible score. By the way, notice that the 6XC, as good as it is, simply straddles the .30 caliber cartridges; it is not the winner.

Long-Range Comparison
German rarely shoots the .308 in matches that are only 1000 yards; most of his 1000-yard .308 shooting is done in Palma matches which include 800, 900 and 1000 yards. To make the comparison useful, the Long-Range results are presented only as a percentage of the possible score and the 800- and 900-yard stages of Palma matches were NOT included.

In NRA Long-Range and Palma matches, the average percentage of possible score for each cartridge at 1000 yards was as follows:

6XC – 98.9%, 360 rounds fired
.30-06 – 97.7%, 460 rounds fired
.308 – 97.3%, 490 rounds fired

Editor’s Note: Among the three cartridges German studied, the 6XC actually proved best at 1000 yards, delivering 98.9% of the maximum possible scores. The .30-06 was second-best with 97.7%, slightly better than the .308 Win at 97.3%.

jeffeosso said it best I think.. The 3 variables.. and he is right.. but assuming your rifle is tuned up...

That being said, the 30-06 has always been my go-to rifle and caliber. I've owned 21 or more of them over the years.. Down to 5 now.
I've experimented with about every bullet weight and probably most bullet manufacturers.

I won't give you my exact load for safety reasons, but you can work it up yourself. There is a sweet spot with this combo you will see as you work up.. From the starting load you may get 2-3" groups then once you hit the sweet spot, all of a sudden they tighten up bigtime down to an inch sometimes a tad over sometimes less but on avg 1".

The powder is H4831 and the bullet is the Sierra 180 gr SPBT and the 180 Nosler Partition SPBT. for me they hold the same point of impact and the Nosler is only slightly less accurate than the Sierra.. like by maybe .1" (the old style Nosler partitions didn't shoot better than 2.5" in this rifle, but the new stuff is as good as Sierra) on avg. My main rifle is a Rem 700, timney trigger at 2#, glass bedded action and floated factory bbl.

I hope this helps..

Geez, we've gone from hunting accuracy to bug hole shooting at 1000 yards. What difference does it make to a 200 yard deer/elk/hog/antelope that a one off bench gun in .308 will out shoot a one off bench gun in 30-06 by very, very minor amounts at extreme ranges? Or vice versa?

It's funny how these discussions always end up off on some obscure tangent. But back to the original question comparing the accuracy of 308 to the 30-06 at 100 yards -- all else being equal, there is no measurable advantage

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
It's funny how these discussions always end up off on some obscure tangent. But back to the original question comparing the accuracy of 308 to the 30-06 at 100 yards -- all else being equal, there is no measurable advantage

totally agree -- though i might say "meaningful" ....

One shooter, shooting two similarly stocked/scoped rifles, one in .308 the other in .30-06 with same weight bullets will probably not be able to discern any real difference in the performance of the two guns.

Any critter being shot with either will not know the difference.

Not only will a 308 Win be much more accurate than a 30/06 but it's accuracy life is much longer.A 30/06 is a bit like a 300WM.Like a 300WM it is very accurate for the first 50 or so rounds then it all goes to shit.A 308 has phenomenal accuracy from the start much better than a 30/06 and it stays very accurate for over 1000 rds unless you toast the hell out of it.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Not only will a 308 Win be much more accurate than a 30/06 but it's accuracy life is much longer.A 30/06 is a bit like a 300WM.Like a 300WM it is very accurate for the first 50 or so rounds then it all goes to shit.A 308 has phenomenal accuracy from the start much better than a 30/06 and it stays very accurate for over 1000 rds unless you toast the hell out of it.

AR has a Humour forum. You could put your post along with your efforts on the 450 Rigby thread and you will be off to a flying start. Straight to the top of the class.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Not only will a 308 Win be much more accurate than a 30/06 but it's accuracy life is much longer.A 30/06 is a bit like a 300WM.Like a 300WM it is very accurate for the first 50 or so rounds then it all goes to shit.A 308 has phenomenal accuracy from the start much better than a 30/06 and it stays very accurate for over 1000 rds unless you toast the hell out of it.

My Borden was just getting broken in after the first 100 rounds !

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Not only will a 308 Win be much more accurate than a 30/06 but it's accuracy life is much longer.A 30/06 is a bit like a 300WM.Like a 300WM it is very accurate for the first 50 or so rounds then it all goes to shit.A 308 has phenomenal accuracy from the start much better than a 30/06 and it stays very accurate for over 1000 rds unless you toast the hell out of it.

During the past 50 years, I have owned and shot about 15 .30-06 rifles and several .308Win. rifles, all except two early Ruger M-77s, rather "highend" models.

I just sold my minty P-64 Fwt- in an original Pacific Research stock and it was an honest .75" rifle.

My experience with 1000's of handloads directly contradicts yours and I carried a .30-06 on more than one remote wilderness BCFS and AFS station for 3-5 month solo stints. This was in Grizzly country from the BC-AK border in the early '70s to the Rockies from 1965 to northern AB in the '90s.

Frankly, I think that you must be smoking some radical shit here to make such ridiculous comments. My current Martini-modded sts Classic 70-.308, will NOT equal my Fwt above and the difference between HUNTING rifles is non-existent.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Not only will a 308 Win be much more accurate than a 30/06 but it's accuracy life is much longer.A 30/06 is a bit like a 300WM.Like a 300WM it is very accurate for the first 50 or so rounds then it all goes to shit.A 308 has phenomenal accuracy from the start much better than a 30/06 and it stays very accurate for over 1000 rds unless you toast the hell out of it.

Well I guess it all depends on the shooter.

My experience varies from yours also.