I have 2. I bought both because of the rifles. Kimber 8400's. They shoot extremely well, are easy to reload for, brass lasts forever, and they knock the snot out of deer and elk. If You need 5 down You are not shooting enough for practice. 270 wsm and 300 wsm.

It's like asking why shoot a 308? The 30.06 will do everything that the 308 will do just with a 1/2 longer case.

Why have a 7-08 when the 7x57 exists?

The more cartridges the better, it gives me more excuses to buy guns.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
It's like asking why shoot a 308? The 30.06 will do everything that the 308 will do just with a 1/2 longer case.

Why have a 7-08 when the 7x57 exists?

The more cartridges the better, it gives me more excuses to buy guns.

I could not agree more.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
It's like asking why shoot a 308? The 30.06 will do everything that the 308 will do just with a 1/2 longer case.corect

Why have a 7-08 when the 7x57 exists? Correct !

The more cartridges the better, it gives me more excuses to buy guns.WRONG

Test score 66.6% Can't believe you need an excuse to buy a rifle. roger

I have shot everything from .22's to 50 BMG for years and everything in between to the tune of 3,000 plus rounds per year. I never owned a .270 Win but have great respect for it. When the .270 WSM came out I couldn't resist. WOW, what a round. 130 grain bullet at 3400 plus, 140 grain at 3300, 150 grain at 3150. I love speed and one hole accuracy and the .270 WSM gives it when I do my part. My .243 WSSM is a favorite with my grandsons and takes a dozen Deer each year and is super accurate. My 25 WSSM matchs the good old 25-06 stride for stride and for me more accurate. If you have not shot them, don't bad mouth them until you do is all I can say. Good shooting.

I wish I had a nickle for every time I have read that hackneyed old comment "they are an answer to a problem that doesn't exist". Who ever said there was a problem? We haven't had a "problem" from lack of adequate cartridges for decades. I haven't shot a critter in my lifetime that I couldn't have neatly taken with the 270 M70 that my dad bought in '52. But I have had a lifetime of enjoyment buying, loading, testing, and experimenting with different rifles and cartridges.

They are different. They provide another opportunity to explore our hobby...if you want to. If you don't want to, no one is forcing you to.

Can you think of any market in which the manufacturers don't introduce new products to improve sales? IMO, the vast majority of these products are "a solution to a problem that doesn't exist".

But the new cartridges have sold more rifles, bullets, powder, ammo, etc. (good for the industry, and therefore good for us), and they have provided some of us rifle nuts with enjoyment.

And from what I read, the 270WSM and the 300WSM, rightfully or not, are among the best sellers.

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:
But I have had a lifetime of enjoyment buying, loading, testing, and experimenting with different rifles and cartridges.

They are different. They provide another opportunity to explore our hobby...if you want to.

To me what you say here has value. But as far as bringing inreased or added "performance" to the hunters and shooters these cartridges are non contenders.

Is it possible that they are marketings contribution to a reduced matureation level? roger

I only have experience with the .300 WSM vs my .300 Win. mag.
The first time was when I helped a newbie to shooting who'd been "conned" into a .300 WSM and didn't even know how to sight a rifle in. I made him do all the shooting and contrary to popular opinion, he shot quite well. After we were done and he'd shot some more, he offered to let me try the rifle. This was a Winchester M70 Classic in a standard rifle configuration, not one in the Featherweight style. I rarely shoot a strange rifle well the first time out so when I put 3 shots into a bit over a half inch, I was impressed. Not bad for factory ammo.
The second time around, I got a lot more shooting time in with the gun, this time an M70 Classic in the Featherweight style belonging to my ex-son-in-law. groups with factory ammo ran in the .75 to 1.00" range, and recoil felt to be about like my full size .300 Win. mag. I felt that feeding was a bit rough and sticky, but as it was a new gun, I figured that would smooth out some. So far it hasn't. I did all the reload work up for him, and then taught him how to do it himself.
While I like the feel of the Featherweight style stock, I doubt I would ever buy one as it doesn't do anything my .300 Win. mag. doesn't already do and I'd just have to buy more dies, and brass. I have a hard enough time keeping up with what I already have.
Paul B.

Paul B ----- I, like you had shot a .300 Winny for years and did not feel the WSM would improve on a 180 grain bullet at 3180 fps and shoot one hole groups at 100 yards. I have killed many Elk, Caribou, A Brown Bear and upteen Deer with that rifle. I had never owned a .270 Win and have always been a fan of O'Connor and knew of his love for the rifle. When I originally heard of an additional 200 fps faster the than the old .270 per bullet for the WSM, it perked up my ears. When I bought the .270 WSM it surpassed that considerably and once again I am very impressed after shooting it for three years now. Now if others do not think that is a significant amount, so be it, for me it certainly is. It is my go to Cow Elk rifle and number one Deer. I also shoot extensively the .257 Wby, 7mm STW, 7mm Wby, all of which I consider excellent Deer size animal rifles and will not quite them ever because 6 grandsons are waiting in the wings. This .270 WSM takes a back seat to none of them for a reloader. The .243 WSSM and 25 WSSM are also improvements over the old .243 and .257 Roberts and equal the 25-06. What is there not to like, particularly for training rifles for the younger generation. Just stirring the pot from my end. Good shooting.

I Thank Everyone for their comments.

On the site where this came from, two seperate threads have been locked down and deleted on this subject.

My original comment on that site was, that the WSM's had not lived up to their hype, and were in fact declining in popularity.

Having a new round to play with is a good thing, my point is, at some point, if sales are not as expected or are declining, the chamberings will be dropped.

I shoot a 35 Whelen, and am quite familiar with its ups and downs as a factory offered chambering and load.

The people that have responded to the question have been fairly evenly divided, but the main theme seems to be that having a new cartridge and load to work with is a good thing, as long as people remain aware of the fact that overall sales from the factory will in the end determine the longevity of the cartridge. JMO.

I believe the Remington Short Mags are doomed and I'm not too sure the .325WSM will hang on either.

The .270WSM and .300WSM I'm sure are here to stay and maybe the 7WSM too. They are popular as hell up in this country and all the major gun manufacturers chamber for them. The .270WSM and .300WSM are fine cartridges.

I bet in a few more years you won't see the SAUM's being chambered. Even Remington is slowly phasing them out.

The opinions of individuals really don't matter. Sales numbers will decide what happens to any of these cartridges.

I do not own any Short Mags and I do not own any of RUM's either. I already own pretty much all the comparable cartridges to any of these Short Mags, so to speak, there is no need for me to buy one.

I've got some, like em OK. For no particular reason, like the absence of a belt. Feeding is different--read: often not as good as (pic your comparable been around a long time cartridge).

Steep shoulder, short fat powder column DOES make a difference in accuracy. Like it or not, our of the box, the short fats are more accurate more often.

Dead as a hammer, maybe some day, but sure as hell not yet. I've been asking 4 or 5 times a year since before the WSM's were around, what is the biggest seller at 5 or 6 major retailers around the southeast, and the WSM's consistently win this very serious and formal survey, have since they came out.

Have the lived up to their hype--mmmmm, I didn't really assess what that hype was and therfore what they should 'become' but as others have said, more and more mfgs. have chambered for them. The mfgs. have sold a bunch of rifles in these chamberings.

I think a lot of folks who weigh in on these threads about the WSM's just hate em without good reason--you know the old saying, you'll hear from almost everyone who isn't happy, but very few that are satisfied.

A mate of mine has a 300WSM by Kimber, I've seen him shoot it into half inch groups at 200 yards, ergo it's a load of rubbish

I have a Rem 300saum in a 700 BDL and a 300 wm Savage 114 classic series and I like both of them equally.

I always laugh when I see the 1885 Browning in 300WSM......and I like 1885s.

If they're waiting on me to buy one they might as well shut down the line! I'm more into the old classics, 250-3000, 257 Roberts, 270 Win, 300 Sav. Haven't seen a situation I couldn't handle with one of those. Don't want no wisms, wussms, or whish'ums!

Yes, but the short magnums equate to a blivate, that's 5 lbs. of s--t in a 2 lb. bag.

Many custom gunsmiths won't chamber for the WSMs because of Rick Jamison's lawsuit and feeding problems.

I shot a 7mmRemMag for over 20 years. Although the 7mmRemMag is right at home hunting mule deer, I felt kinda silly shooting a doe at 30 yards in the timber with a magnum, so I switched to a Rem 7mm-08 for most of my deer hunting. I now have a 7-08AI. Funny thing about most deer rifles. All the deer I've tagged were equally dead, irrespective of which rifle I used.

I was, however, intrigued by the 7.21 Lazzeroni Tomahawk. Even though I thought it was a sexy cartridge, I didn't buy one and had no interest in the WSM, but I've always wanted a 7mmSAUM. It is more efficient than the WSM, and offers plenty of horsepower without feeling seriously overgunned on a deer hunt. I've also heard repeatedly that it is difficult to duplicate factory advertised ballistics in the 7mmWSM without running pressures high. Personally, I don't know.

If I need more horsepower than the 7-08AI, I just pull out my 300WinMag. I don't need another 7mm, but the 7mmSAUM still pulls at me for some unknown reason.

Just my $.02.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Yes, but the short magnums equate to a blivate, that's 5 lbs. of s--t in a 2 lb. bag.

Not sure I would want to book a hunt through someone who was so derogatory.

You probably would not want to book a hunt thru most outfitters or guides that have been in the business for any length of time, they come by being opinionated honestly, after years of dealing with clients that can barely find their own ass with both hands. JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
You probably would not want to book a hunt thru most outfitters or guides that have been in the business for any length of time, they come by being opinionated honestly, after years of dealing with clients that can barely find their own ass with both hands. JMO.

Stated better than I could. roger

This argument hasn't changed on either side for a few years now. Their's nothing wrong with the WSM. Find a rfile that feeds it well (same shold be said for the RUM, Jeffery, Rigby - pretty much anything but the x57's) and it'll do what it does. There are no magic cartridges (no, Dad, not even the Swede!) nor are their any real holes in the lineup. As far as "doing something XXX can't do," that line's been used for nigh forty years now.
If you have a functional arsenal, it isn't fair to ask a new round to justify its existence by your need for it. Rather, if someone wants a rifle for hunting, plinking, target, etc., will this cartridge work? And yes, the 7mm, 300 and 8mm WSM's all push bullets out faster than they need to for most work, and have shown more than adequate accuracy in well-functioning guns.
I've only handled two myself, a M70 270 WSM and a Kimber 300. They both shot and fed fine. Owners loved them. No, they didn't have a safe full of guns already, racing to the store for the next great thing, but they now each have a solid hunting rifle.
Hype? Yeah. Of COURSE! This is America. Things don't sell on their own merits anymore. I just saw a commercial for male shampoo, admonishing me to "take control" of my hair. I did not realize I'd lost control of it; and it just begs the question as to who they think does have control.
So no, the WSM won't live up to its hype. But I dare say neither did the 270 Win or 6.5 RM. Both excellent rounds.

i must admit that the wsm and rsaum's has never had any effect on me...except the .325 wsm
not because its magnum, not because its short but it seems like a good, potent 8mm.

i wonder how fast it will push 220gr bullets

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
You probably would not want to book a hunt thru most outfitters or guides that have been in the business for any length of time, they come by being opinionated honestly, after years of dealing with clients that can barely find their own ass with both hands. JMO.

I'm amazed what outfitters think of their
customers. Seems to me the customer provide the money and guide provides a service and if you don't like giving the service why not quit or is the money too good? I bet you take his money and kiss his a**.

quote:

Originally posted by tom holland:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
You probably would not want to book a hunt thru most outfitters or guides that have been in the business for any length of time, they come by being opinionated honestly, after years of dealing with clients that can barely find their own ass with both hands. JMO.

I'm amazed what outfitters think of their
customers. Seems to me the customer provide the money and guide provides a service and if you don't like giving the service why not quit or is the money too good? I bet you take his money and kiss his a**.

Well said!

To them we are just money to be made,nice to know we are held in such low esteem.

quote:

I'm amazed what outfitters think of their
customers. Seems to me the customer provide the money and guide provides a service and if you don't like giving the service why not quit or is the money too good? I bet you take his money and kiss his a**.

Your reading way to much into what I stated.

I have never kissed a customers arse, but over the time I have been guiding, I have only had two customers that were complete jerks, I have been lucky in that aspect.

As for the two jerks, I got them on their animals and they were ready to leave campt that day.

Nothing I said or did, just the kind of folks they were.

For the most part all of my clients have been great people I would hunt with again, and in some cases have.

I have also seen some of the other kind in the camps I have been in as a client or as camp help.

The whole idea in doing a guided or outfitted hunt, is to put the hunter in a position to kill something that they normally do not have the time or experience to handle.

It is when the client comes in and tries to run things is when the problems happen.

My philosophy is get them their game as fast as possible and then get them out of camp.

Some peoples philosophy is to put them in a location that has not had a head of game go across it in years.

This is all off topic, but guides/outfitters do not look at all clients this way, but it does not take long to figure out just exactly what type of person the client is after you get them in camp. JMO.

The 270 WSM and the 300 WSM are not going anywhere. They are very popular and everybody is chambering for them.

One thing I like about the short magnum cartridges is the lack of a belt on the case. They also have a nice sharp shoulder which provides good expansion control in the chamber. In general, I have read many times that the 300 WSM is inherently more accurate than the 300 Win based on the geometry of the casing and powder distribution within the case. This is like how the 308 Win is inherently more accurate than the 30/06, it a fact.

Concerning the 7mm WSM? Would I buy one? No, I would not buy one based on future brass availability. If I ever buy another gun in the future it will be for all my big game hunting for years to come. I personally have no interest in spending money on multiple weapons to play with, that just me and everybody is different.

The 270 WSM? Well, I don't see what it really offers over the standard 270. Yes, it may push a 150-200 fps more velocity, but what is that really going to benefit me? Maybe give me another 40-50 yards of range. Considering the 270 Win can shoot very well into the 400-450 yard range, shooting the 270 WSM is not fast enough to benefit out past those distances. If I am needing a long range cartridge, something required past 500 yards which is at about the 270 Win max, I would go with something like a 7mm STW. I believe one would be better served finding a used, good quality 270 Win, and put the rest of your money into a good, high power scope for the gun, allowing optimal long range shooting.

Out of all the WSM's I would buy a 300 WSM if I found a good used rifle in great shape. That is a caliber that is just about perfect for everything in NA with the exception of perhaps less than optimal feeding. It is a nice accurate, beltless cartridge that reloads well. It also has a bit less recoil than the 300 Win Mag which is always a bonus.

Remington dropped the ball in naming their short magnums. Winchester dropped the ball in naming their super short magnum's. I believe the SAUM and WSSM are commonly annoying abbreviation's. As sad as that may sound, names and looks do make a difference. Marketing plays a large role in buyers decision's. The .300 WSM has a smooth, flowing name and the letters are symmetrical.

quote:

Originally posted by ron williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Yes, but the short magnums equate to a blivate, that's 5 lbs. of s--t in a 2 lb. bag.

Not sure I would want to book a hunt through someone who was so derogatory.

The start was this not so vailed threat to an outfiter's livly hood.
Next
You probably would not want to book a hunt thru most outfitters or guides that have been in the business for any length of time, they come by being opinionated honestly, after years of dealing with clients that can barely find their own ass with both hands. JMO.

I'm amazed what outfitters think of their
customers. Seems to me the customer provide the money and guide provides a service and if you don't like giving the service why not quit or is the money too good? I bet you take his money and kiss his a**.

Than;
Well said!

To them we are just money to be made,nice to know we are held in such low esteem.

Well you have the right to your opinion even if it is short sighted

These outfitters are working a business to make a livelyhood with some customers who are really fine. Others who think the dollar buys respect and authority make life for these people difficult at best. Been there seen that both as a hunter and a sports fisherman.

Not sure I would want to book a hunt through someone who was so derogatory.[/QUOTE]

Personally I hope no working guide or outfitter has to deal with you priledged types. The man has his right to his opinion on this topic without the " Hey if you want to stay in business pull in your horns." And the horses you guys rode in on.
roger

There are a great many cartridges both very long and very short

Some have gotten a little bad press I am saddened to report

Seems Winchester did not pay a fellow for his research and his work

Should we dismiss these rounds and consider this man a jerk?

These rounds are very efficiant and accurate to boot

Are they not worthy because of a settled out of court lawsuit?

These cartridges were not designed to replace our favorite older rounds

As sportsman we are blessed with many good choices I have found

Life would not be nearly as interesting if our choices they were fewer

I do not think the time has come to throw the WSMs in the sewer

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by ron williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Yes, but the short magnums equate to a blivate, that's 5 lbs. of s--t in a 2 lb. bag.

Not sure I would want to book a hunt through someone who was so derogatory.

The start was this not so vailed threat to an outfiter's livly hood.
Next
You probably would not want to book a hunt thru most outfitters or guides that have been in the business for any length of time, they come by being opinionated honestly, after years of dealing with clients that can barely find their own ass with both hands. JMO.

I'm amazed what outfitters think of their
customers. Seems to me the customer provide the money and guide provides a service and if you don't like giving the service why not quit or is the money too good? I bet you take his money and kiss his a**.

Is it any different to call a product that a person likes crap or bring into question a mans livelyhood?

quote:

Originally posted by ron williams:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ron williams:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atkinson:
Is it any different to call a product that a person likes crap or bring into question a mans livelyhood?

Yes! You bet your sweet patooty. The one is an individual trying to make a living and giving you the benefit of his vast experience, the other is a marketing group trying to push a bunch of ,not much at all, on an imature market. These guys can always move on to another company and product, not necessarily so the guide who has dedicated himself and life to OUR SPORT.

I guess if you want to BUY yes men and ass kissers people like you will always find them. roger

Boy! Am I glad I turned on my computer

I am glad to know that Atkisson deserves to make a living and marketing groups do not.

I feel so enlightened

The replies to this thread are telling me alot (which I already suspected) about how guides and outfitters feel/think about their paying customers. I feel very blessed to have good places in both Texas and Oklahoma to hunt and do not have to give my hard earned money to a group of "businessmen" that have so little regard for their clientel.

The replies to this thread are telling me alot (which I already suspected) about how guides and outfitters feel/think about their paying customers. I feel very blessed to have good places in both Texas and Oklahoma to hunt and do not have to give my hard earned money to a group of "businessmen" that have so little regard for their clientel.


One of the things the replies to this thread are telling me, is that some folks can not stay on topic.

It had nothing to do with out guides/outfitters feel about some of their clients, or how some people, probably people that have never been on a guided hunt feel about guides/outfitters.

It was and still is about whether or not the Winchester Short Magnums are going to maintain any or enough popularity to continue to be chambered and ammunition manufactured.

The results until the started about guides and how they should act, were about what I figured, those that have shot them and like them, really like them, those that do not like them, Do Not Like Them.

Personal opinions about guides/outfitters by those with no actual experience on doing a guided/outfitted hunt, is totally meaningless and shows a total grasp of the concept of making immature and groundless statements using a total lack of any real knowledge. JMO.

You want on topic. I happen to like 300 WSM and have owned a couple of them. I DO like the round better than a 300 WM, but I DO NOT think either the 270 WSM or 300 WSM will achieve the popularity for them to become real "players" in the cartridge world.

Crazyhorse
I have been on this site for a while and followed your posts, and I actually thought better of you than what I am seeing in this thread. My opinions are my opinion and pretty much meaningless, but your opinions can negatively effect YOUR business. For someone that adverises their "wares" on this site, it is just food for thought.

One of the things the replies to this thread are telling me, is that some folks can not stay on topic.

It had nothing to do with out guides/outfitters feel about some of their clients, or how some people, probably people that have never been on a guided hunt feel about guides/outfitters.

It was and still is about whether or not the Winchester Short Magnums are going to maintain any or enough popularity to continue to be chambered and ammunition manufactured.

The results until the started about guides and how they should act, were about what I figured, those that have shot them and like them, really like them, those that do not like them, Do Not Like Them.

Personal opinions about guides/outfitters by those with no actual experience on doing a guided/outfitted hunt, is totally meaningless and shows a total grasp of the concept of making immature and groundless statements using a total lack of any real knowledge. JMO.[/QUOTE]

Your pot is most certainly stirred! JMO

It is like everything. You have good guides and you have bad guides, you have good clients and you have bad clients. Now back to the short mags. I have read that the saum even though it didn't catch on in the market is the better of all the short mags. What are y'all's thoughts on that?

I like 'um, but then again I like new stuff, being in the tech industry and all. I haven't bothered to buy one yet though.

When I was buying my latest rifle, a Weatherby Vanguard, I was trying to choose which caliber I wanted. I didn't have a .300 Mag in my safe, and that's pretty much a no-no in my books. So I had to choose between Weatherby, Winchester, and WSM. Since it only had a 24" barrel, I thought I'd stick with the Winchester and have no regrets.

.270 WSM is an interesting one indeed. Very tempting, in fact. Seems to be an ideal deer round, but I've heard of feeding problems with it. Apparently this only affects staggered box magazines, but still, I'm too leary to give it a try knowing full well I can get similar/better performance from a 7mm Remington Magnum and if the extra length of the gun is really a big deal, I can just step back 2 inches.

quote:

Crazyhorse
I have been on this site for a while and followed your posts, and I actually thought better of you than what I am seeing in this thread. My opinions are my opinion and pretty much meaningless, but your opinions can negatively effect YOUR business. For someone that adverises their "wares" on this site, it is just food for thought.

If my opinions on an internet forum, affect the way potential clients view my guide service, instead of looking at my success rates or contacting my references, then I probaly do not want them as clients.

I have never met or hunted with a quality outfitter than was not opinionated.

That is what makes them good, they have worked at the business long enough and have enough experience that they really don't have the time to listen to some upstart client that has more money than sense, try to tell them how to do their job.

The best clients come into camp ready to listen to the guide, because that is why they booked with him, for his knowledge and experience.

People that judge others by words on a computer screen are somewhat less of a human than they really know. JMO.

People that judge others by words on a computer screen are somewhat less of a human than they really know. JMO.[/QUOTE]

quote:

Thats a two way street.