Call it a bucket list item if you want but, I'm looking for a new rifle. I'm looking for a quality build (Georgia Precision, American Precision/Patriot, ...) in a lightweight rifle that has good reach potential and enough thump for Mountain Goats, Sheep, Caribou, Deer, etc. in North America. I have cannons for bigger stuff and a 300 Win Mag for really long range shots if I ever get the skill to use it in a hunting situation (I'm not taking an 800 yard shot at an Elk, though my friend could nail one easily at that distance).

I'm looking for a ~7 pound rifle and I'm thinking about a 7mm NON-Magnum caliber like a 280AI Remington, 7mm-08, 7x57 ...

The rifle needs to be one I can shoot a lot to build my skills for a ~400-500 yard shot for Mountain Goats and Sheep which I expect to be long range shots. Deer and Caribou are more apt to be in the ~200-300 yard range. I don't want to decimate the game animal but, I do want to make a clean kill and have some meat left. Again, all hunts would be in North America on light to medium size game (no Elk, Moose, Bear, etc).

What gun smiths should I consider? My rifle expectations are pretty high having owned and currently owning some exceptional ones. What caliber/calibers are recommended? What should a good quality rifle cost excluding optics (or where does diminishing return come into play with a hard core hunting rifle for adverse weather)? Why do you recommend what you do?

TIA,
Sid

quote:

What gun smiths should I consider? My rifle expectations are pretty high having owned and currently owning some exceptional ones. What caliber/calibers are recommended? What should a good quality rifle cost excluding optics (or where does diminishing return come into play with a hard core hunting rifle for adverse weather)? Why do you recommend what you do?

A standard M-70 from the Carolinas will serve you nicely in .270 Winchester....

If you're insistant on a custom just buy the above rifle and have it sent to Jim Kobe for a rebarrel to .280 Remington.....

TooMany Tools is also a good man to do you a custom on such a fine base rifle.

As a matter of fact, there's quite a few folks that post here that will make you a fine rifle......and the sky is the limit for cost.

Send a few PMs and ask for prices..... but you can't get off to a better start than with a standard new M-70 in .270 Winchester

You could also buy this action and have either of the above folks make a custom .280 Rem for you.....just ask for prices.

I think you'll find that to start with a new M-70 is the cheaper route and you'll have a very fine custom....or semicustom if that's more appropriate.

First, the shots at RMGoats and any wild sheep are seldom very long and I would not even try a 4-500 yd. shot in the varying winds of mountainous sheep country. The rest of your parameters simply describe the sort of rifle which my buddies and I have many of and use here in BC, Alberta and "The Territories".

To me, the best choices are the .270Win. and .280Rem. hands down. With good handloads and some of today's premium factory ammo, I would and do hunt anything in BC and I have dozens of bigger rifles to choose from, if I am so inclined.

I cannot suggest a 'smith in the US, where you live, but, I would go with a Classic sts action, Lilja tube, Micky Edge stock, Talleys with the Brockman rear "peep" sight and NECG-Recknagel front and a pair of scopes in the Talley rings, Zeiss 3x9x40 is my favourite here.

A rifle of 7.25-7.5 lbs and a .277-150NP or .284-160NP at 2850 fps-mv and you are ready to rock. I would have a matched pair built and stay with those, wish I had the horse sense and self discipline to do just that! Good luck!

winchester featherweight 6.5 before scope or
http://www.winchesterguns.com/...mily=001C&mid=535109

http://www.winchesterguns.com/...mily=001C&mid=535119

rem model 7 in 708, synthetic stock 6.5 before scope

savage edge series -- 6.5 lbs .. and probably th most accurate out of the box
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/featured/

savage has any number of sub&# rifles
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/models/

ruger has the lightest offering, at 6 to 6.25 -

http://www.ruger.com/products/...eCompact/models.html


though they've disc'ed alot of model 7s

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=186446767

for example

mountain rifle in 708, 308, 280, 270 ,,, don't go with anything exotic, and for the shooting you are describing, an AI is counter productive, as frequently accuracy comes in mild loads

http://www.remington.com/produ...00-mountain-lss.aspx

model 700 mountain .. trim it till it makes your weight, though the lam stock shown has got to be heavy


http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=185199356

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=185717524

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=185682543

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=185172313



i've been through this . it sounds great ,, doesn't workout as well as you'd hope ...


your request is internally conflicted...

long range guns do not need to be 7# light

long range optics are usually heavy

mountain guns need to be light, short, rugged

building your skills will be counter productive with a light barreled gun, for long distances

you can spend a fortune getting within 6 oz of a factory offering.. or you can buy a factory gun, and cut off 4-6 oz ... hollow the stock, shorten the barrel, and other weight loss tricks .. and spend a bit less.. and have sights.

MGA used to charge a fortune for a gun that weighed MORE than the win featherweight/model7

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
First, the shots at RMGoats and any wild sheep are seldom very long and I would not even try a 4-500 yd. shot in the varying winds of mountainous sheep country.

Thanks! The few people I have spoken too that hunted goats in the mountains suggested training to shoot at longer ranges which is where my range originally came from.

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
To me, the best choices are the .270Win. and .280Rem. hands down. With good handloads and some of today's premium factory ammo, I would and do hunt anything in BC and I have dozens of bigger rifles to choose from, if I am so inclined.

I cannot suggest a 'smith in the US, where you live, but, I would go with a Classic sts action, Lilja tube, Micky Edge stock, Talleys with the Brockman rear "peep" sight and NECG-Recknagel front and a pair of scopes in the Talley rings, Zeiss 3x9x40 is my favourite here.

A rifle of 7.25-7.5 lbs and a .277-150NP or .284-160NP at 2850 fps-mv and you are ready to rock. I would have a matched pair built and stay with those, wish I had the horse sense and self discipline to do just that! Good luck!

Thanks! Your post confirms and supports a lot of my thoughts.

Oh you can shoot them at long range, its just getting to them that might be a kick in the arse.

It really sucks when/if you get one down and you cant get to it, hence most folks dont take long shots on these critters.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

mountain rifle in 708, 308, 280, 270 ,,, don't go with anything exotic, and for the shooting you are describing, an AI is counter productive, as frequently accuracy comes in mild loads

Hmmm ... with a good barrel and a good gunsmith, it's not clear to me why a properly chambered AI would be worse then a stardard 280Remington. Pressure, chamber throat, .... seems like a 280AI would not be worse then other 7mm Magnums or Non-Magnums.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
i've been through this . it sounds great ,, doesn't workout as well as you'd hope ...


your request is internally conflicted...

long range guns do not need to be 7# light

long range optics are usually heavy

mountain guns need to be light, short, rugged

building your skills will be counter productive with a light barreled gun, for long distances

you can spend a fortune getting within 6 oz of a factory offering.. or you can buy a factory gun, and cut off 4-6 oz ... hollow the stock, shorten the barrel, and other weight loss tricks .. and spend a bit less.. and have sights.

MGA used to charge a fortune for a gun that weighed MORE than the win featherweight/model7

I have heavy 308 Winchester rifles that will shoot 3/8MOA with the right person pulling the trigger. Huffing a heavy rifle at altitude is not something I want to do on a hunt. As I get older, heavier rifles get even heavier. For long range practice when I don't have to hump the rifle around, I've got heavy rifles (poundage >11lbs). The Remington Sendero 300 Win Mag has seen time with my friend hunting Elk. Optics, definitely lower power fixed or variables. Heavy high power scopes sit on my heavy rifles.

As they say. 270, 280 or of course if you wanted something different, and were willing to fuss with it a little bit if it is requried, maybe the 264 Winchester Mag - but it is a mag.

My favorite cartridge is the 270 Win. The first rifle I bought with my own money was one. A lot of them shoot well. Ammo is there. Recoil is light. It is the classic. Of course it can be a little blase in todays world. Thats just how it is. But the 270's like me and I like them.

There is no question that for mountain goat, deer, and for many, if not most, other species it will do the job. Caribou are not very hard to kill. The 270 will do that job too.

I am fortunate enough to have other rifles now. I have a heavy bolt, an Alaska rifle, a long ranger and a selection of custom rifles. I have lever actions and target rifles.

I cant think of a time when I did not have a 270. When I was younger and really hunting for me, not watching my son or others hunt, but hunting for me, I always had one as my go to hunter. I added a 300 Weatherby Mag that I had to have. Good stuff too but I soon grew fonder of those 270's.

Many times when we are going hunting, or traveling to hunt, I take my Sako FiberClass AV series Stoeger import in 270 Win. The rifle is stone stock as delivered from Sako. It wears the newer OptiLock rings and bases and has a Swaro 3 x 10 x 42 scope mounted.

With a Federal Premium 150 I dont remember it ever needing to be fired twice. It shoots about an inch group at 100, and about an inch at 200, and a bit more at 300.

It has made one shot stops from 50 yards to 438 steps. I took that shot with one of my best buds on the rock next to me looking through the binos. I did miss the first shot low BTW but the deer moved off but not too far.

The package is sighted for 1 3/4 high at 100. Dead on for about 185-200 and comes in 6 inches or so low at 300. It will do a bit better with a handloaded Nosler or TBBC in both group and trajectory. I have not had to even make a scope adjustment since mounting the Optis and Swaro.

While I like Winchesters, I like this too. Its a proven performer. If somebody called today and said lets go get a sporting animal anything up to 500 lbs I would not hesitate to load it in the case and go. Rain, shine, mountain, swamp, desert - no matter. Short range, normal range, longer range. What else could you ask for in a sporting rifle.

Because I like the Winchesters one day I will yet have a 264 Win Mag just because it was a effort by Winchester to top their 1925 work - the all Amercian 270 Winchester.


When my grown son wanted a one rifle package he got a similar rifle in 7MM Rem Mag. He wanted me to set up his own use battery. It is the 7MM RM, 12 gauges in auto, pump and OU, a couple of .22's, one revolver, one 45 Colt Auto, and a yet to be added 375H&H. For the rifles I told him he could hunt the world with that - and it is true. He is a pretty big man so he wanted that 7MM. He is lucky too - he knows where a safe with some 270's as well as some other speciality guns is!

Hope that helps.

Good suggestions but it seems the 7x57 has been left in the dust. Well it will get the job done and you have great bullet selection from 100 grain to 175 grain . Mostly premium bullets are not necessary. The two sporterized Mausers I have sport 19" barrels; possibly a little short for you but they certainly perform and are not hard to pack.
A step further would be to mount a light weight scout type scope.
Sounds like you'll be keeping your shots under 300 yards so the proposed rig isn't out of reason.
Even a 6.5x55 with a short barrel could get the job done.JMHO roger

7x57 is a great round but, it's a little hard to find where I shop. For 7x57 use, the 7mm-08 seems to match it very closely in a smaller lighter action. In a long action, the 280 Remington seems like a more flexible choice when I reload.

Sid,
my suggestion is several -- the AI gives you NOTHING until you are at max pressures, over the original loading .. way way way too many times, people report 100fps IF gained.. but at greater pressure .. remember, the 280 is loaded to less pressure than the 270 or 30-06 factory .. but mild recoil does improve the shooter's results, especially in a light gun..

next -- WHICH 280 AI? there's several
next -- there's nothing to gain worth mentioning over loading the standard and the AI in terms of reach ... nothing.. 3-6 yards MBPR

my mountain rifle is a 7x64.. i wish i could claim the good sense of designing, but a friend and I worked out a deal for it .. my backpacking/hiking gun tends to be my 358 win mexican mauser.. at 7.25# ...

mt rifles are meant to be light barrels.. and light to carry .. these are NOT improvements for an extended range session .. hot barrel after 2 shoots .. lots of barrel movement.. lots of felt recoil (and this from a confirmed bigbore shooter) in these very light rifles ..

in short, the 708/7x57/280/270 are all perfectly fine ...

and if you can get a factory rifle, you have some certainty of it feeding, shooting, and being available in a couple days .. no delays, no risk in build...

and if you simply must spend extra dough to get the same as offered factory, then set the barrel back a thread and match chamber in in the factory caliber .. bes tof both worlds .. you'll KNOW its going to be as light as you wanted, it will be on hand in a couple days, and the factory stands behind it...

280 requires a longer action than the 708 .. therefore the rem7/short win/savage/short ruger actions ... if you are hunting ozs, you have to look at grains to get lighter ...

and i've seen several people RIPPED OFF and receiving guns that weigh more than factory, don't shoot any better than factory, and cost 3-5 times as much.

this tends to be the rat hole that lots of people get ripped off on ..

I agree with Jefe, I would not be bothered with a .280AI and consider AIs in general a rather poor idea in a serious hunting rifle. I currently have three P-64 Fwt. .270s and am working on getting a 1949 action which may become another. These are in Micky Edge and Brown Kevlar handles and they just plain WORK.

I have two Brno 22H rifles rechambered to .280Rem and a 21/22 action and Kreiger tube to build another and I prefer a .280 with my handloads to anything, except my .338Win. rifles. You do not need more and based on what I have been told here and a few years ago, on 24Hr., I would get Mark Penrod or Gene Simillion to build as I described previously.

Choice..to me, would be based on any foreign travel/hunting I would be doing; more travel equals .270Win. as ammo is more likely to be found anywhere and for most at "home" hunting, I just prefer the .280...and I drink dark organic beer and love Toyotas and Rottweilers....seems a simple choice to me.

You could call Mark P. and Gene S. and see what is happening with them, get a start, anyway.

Use H.C. and Jacks favorite .270 Win and you will be pleanty happy.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Sid,
my suggestion is several -- the AI gives you NOTHING until you are at max pressures, over the original loading .. way way way too many times, people report 100fps IF gained.. but at greater pressure .. remember, the 280 is loaded to less pressure than the 270 or 30-06 factory .. but mild recoil does improve the shooter's results, especially in a light gun..

next -- WHICH 280 AI? there's several
next -- there's nothing to gain worth mentioning over loading the standard and the AI in terms of reach ... nothing.. 3-6 yards MBPR

After reading several threads in different forums and looking at actual ballistic data reported in those threads, I see no reason to get the 280AI over the 280Remington even though factory loads and brass are available.

In my research, it appears the 6.5x55 and 7x57 are near twins with slight differences when you factor in the actual projectiles available. The 7mm-08 splits the difference between them and the 280 Remington so, while I'm not trying to absolutely shave ounces I'm giving the 7mm-08 more consideration.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:my mountain rifle is a 7x64.. i wish i could claim the good sense of designing, but a friend and I worked out a deal for it .. my backpacking/hiking gun tends to be my 358 win mexican mauser.. at 7.25# ...

mt rifles are meant to be light barrels.. and light to carry .. these are NOT improvements for an extended range session .. hot barrel after 2 shoots .. lots of barrel movement.. lots of felt recoil (and this from a confirmed bigbore shooter) in these very light rifles ..

in short, the 708/7x57/280/270 are all perfectly fine ...

I totally agree that a lightweight slender barrel rifle is not the choice for long strings of fire on range day. I have other rifles to bring along and use while the lightweight rifle cools. In terms of recoil, I'm man enough to use a PAST shooting jacket if the recoil is too much for good training. I'll tailor training loads if I need to and work up to "full" power if I need to.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:and if you can get a factory rifle, you have some certainty of it feeding, shooting, and being available in a couple days .. no delays, no risk in build...

and if you simply must spend extra dough to get the same as offered factory, then set the barrel back a thread and match chamber in in the factory caliber .. bes tof both worlds .. you'll KNOW its going to be as light as you wanted, it will be on hand in a couple days, and the factory stands behind it...

280 requires a longer action than the 708 .. therefore the rem7/short win/savage/short ruger actions ... if you are hunting ozs, you have to look at grains to get lighter ...

and i've seen several people RIPPED OFF and receiving guns that weigh more than factory, don't shoot any better than factory, and cost 3-5 times as much.

this tends to be the rat hole that lots of people get ripped off on ..

This is why I post in forums like this one. It helps me avoid the rip off artists and find the real artisans. Having dealt with some marginal factory rifles, I really appreciate the skilled hands of a true artisan that knows how to polish the rough edges off a factory rifle. Granted, today's factory rifles generally come with much better barrels then times past, there is still more to it then that. A factory rifle and a McMillan stock touches ~$1300 pretty easy if you start off with a new rifle. If you add a trigger job and a better hard use finish you approach the entry level costs of a good semi-custom rifle.

I really appreciate all your words of wisdom. I'm looking at the Winchester Model 70 FW in stainless or Remington 700 Mountain rifle right now FWIW.

You are looking at 2 great choices.
Caliber is not as important as practice and familiarity with your rifle.
I took my Sheep and my Goat with a Win M70 "Lightweight" rifle (not a Featherweight) in 30/06 shooting 180 grain handloads.
My Goat was first and I practiced 300 and 400 yard shots till I was so confident that any animal within the zone would be dead.
I shot my Goat at 21 paces.
My Sheep I practiced the same for and killed him at just under 300 yards.
As of late a lot of dedicated Sheep and Goat hunters like the 270 WSM but a 270 win or a 280 or a 30/06 would all do it just fine.
Featherweight is a fine rifle.
Good luck on your quest.

For my mountain rifle I use a Kimber Montana in a 300 WSM. I topped it off with a VX-II ultralight and it is a great rifle. The recoil is not bad with a good pad on the back of it and it shoots well with factory Federals. The rifle is light and a pleasure to carry. If I had to do it over again I would pick a 280. I have been thinking about making another rifle and was looking at the 280 AI, but like some other said it is not that great of an improvement. Also if I did need factory shells I could get then in town. ALso like a few said shooting is the easy part, getting to them in the hard part.

What about a rifle from Christensen Arms? A friend of mine has been using one in 280 for years for all sorts of far-off sheep and goat hunts.

quote:

next -- WHICH 280 AI? there's several
next -- there's nothing to gain worth mentioning over loading the standard and the AI in terms of reach ... nothing.. 3-6 yards MBPR

I agree with Jeff. Years ago I did a test using the same barrel taking it from 280-280RCBS-280AI-7mmJRS and finally my 280PDK(7mmGibbs+). Loaded to the same pressure as best I could measure using same brass I gained a 1%fps for every 4% case capacity. Unless I wanted a wildcat or an AI just because I would take a 280 lightest I could find with a good barrel. Load the 280 the 270 pressure and go hunting.

My wife uses a light 7x57 just for what you discribe but she limits her shots to 275 or less more like 200 or less being the norm.

quote:

Originally posted by Sid Post:
Call it a bucket list item if you want but, I'm looking for a new rifle. I'm looking for a quality build (Georgia Precision, American Precision/Patriot, ...) in a lightweight rifle that has good reach potential and enough thump for Mountain Goats, Sheep, Caribou, Deer, etc. in North America. I have cannons for bigger stuff and a 300 Win Mag for really long range shots if I ever get the skill to use it in a hunting situation (I'm not taking an 800 yard shot at an Elk, though my friend could nail one easily at that distance).

I'm looking for a ~7 pound rifle and I'm thinking about a 7mm NON-Magnum caliber like a 280AI Remington, 7mm-08, 7x57 ...

The rifle needs to be one I can shoot a lot to build my skills for a ~400-500 yard shot for Mountain Goats and Sheep which I expect to be long range shots. Deer and Caribou are more apt to be in the ~200-300 yard range. I don't want to decimate the game animal but, I do want to make a clean kill and have some meat left. Again, all hunts would be in North America on light to medium size game (no Elk, Moose, Bear, etc).

What gun smiths should I consider? My rifle expectations are pretty high having owned and currently owning some exceptional ones. What caliber/calibers are recommended? What should a good quality rifle cost excluding optics (or where does diminishing return come into play with a hard core hunting rifle for adverse weather)? Why do you recommend what you do?

TIA,
Sid

Any of those 7mm's would work for the defined purpose. The 280AI is a handloading proposition and if your ammo does not show up with the rifle you are in trouble. A Rem 700 Mtn LSS in 7mm-o8 would be pretty handy or a Win 70 Fwt chambered same.

quote:

Originally posted by Joel/AK:
Oh you can shoot them at long range, its just getting to them that might be a kick in the arse.

It really sucks when/if you get one down and you cant get to it, hence most folks dont take long shots on these critters.

I agree with this too.

As I have heard before - under a tree and close to a road !

If it were me-

Short Action- 7mm-08
Long Action- .270 Win

I built mine, a M70 lt.wt. in 280.

Sid,

I'm currently having this built.

Pierce short action (M700 clone but accuracy work already done. Extremely fast firing pin assembly)
http://www.pierceengineeringlt.../products.php?item=2 $935

McMillan Remington Sporter stock with edge fill. $478+ when on sale which lately has been often.

Broughton #3.1, 26", SS, 5C, .264", $335

PTG BDL bottom metal $64.

Rifle Basix trigger $110

Optics are so personal. Either something with a BDC like VX3 with Boone & Crocket reticle or my choice which will be a Nightforce 2.5-10x32 with a NP-R2 reticle.

Cerakote all the metal. $200

Chris Matthews of Long Shot rifles http://www.longshotriflesllc.com/ has built me one 6.5x47 Lapua but it is a 17 lb tacticool rifle. It's an absolute tack driver often placing 5 rounds in .1" to .5" if I do my part.

The rifle I'm going to have him build this time is in the same caliber but will be much lighter. It will take all the game you mention way out there if needed. With Rel 17 I can push a 140 gr "hunting" bullet to 2900 fps since it used small rifle primers which allows the brass to be cock strong.

He charges $300 to chamber, thread, mount and crown the barrel. $200 for Cerakote.

You need not worry about any 6.5mm hunting bullet taking all the game you mention. Gred Rodgriquez, outdoor/gun writer, had his kids shoot Zebra in Africa with the 120 gr Barnes TTSX very efficiently.

Great Lapua brass. Great Redding Type-S FL bushing dies and competition seater. CCI 450 mag primers and to start, H4350 or Varget, both Hodgdon Extreme powders. Berger 140 Hunting VLD, Nosler 130 or 140 Accubond, 120 and 130 TSX/TTSX, 120/140 Swift A-frames and 130 Scirocco's. And of course all the standard cup and core bullets.

Just a thought/seed.

Alan

Browning A-bolt Mountain TI......5.8 pounds in the caliber of your choice.......

Too many great options, only one rifle to build.

Off the shelf?
Vapor Dog +1.
New featherweight in .270 Win.

If you were inclined toward something custom, and a little different I'd go with the .280 AI, or the 6.5x47.

We all know the 6.5x47's reputation for long range accuracy, and with good hand loads, the .280 AI will give the 7mm Mag a run for it's money.
To take maxamin advantage of the 280 AI, I would go with 26" #3 contour.
If you wanted a lighter barrel then a #3, I'd bring it in to 22" and not do the .280 AI.

Fred, nice looking rig.
GSSP, that sounds like a great build. I think you would like the Nightforce on it.

quote:

First, the shots at RMGoats and any wild sheep are seldom very long and I would not even try a 4-500 yd. shot in the varying winds of mountainous sheep country.

+1000
My personal opinion is that much of the long range shooting on TV is more of a publicity stunt to sell their products than it is hunting.

My favorite deer and sheep rifle is my .257 AI. I've shot a hand full of sheep and a pile of deer and a Mountain Caribou with it. Almost all have been one shot kills, including the longest shots that I've taken at these animals: 4 pt mule deer @ 288 yds, Mtn Caribou at 250 yds, and Dall ram at 206 yds.

quote:

my suggestion is several -- the AI gives you NOTHING until you are at max pressures, over the original loading .. way way way too many times, people report 100fps IF gained.. but at greater pressure ..

I've never shot a standard .257 Roberts, but my Nosler 5th edition lists a maximum velocity of 2827 fps for the 115 gr bullet from a standard .257 Roberts. I'm chronographing 3030 fps with those bullets in my .257 AI with NO high pressure signs, ie, NO flattening of primers, NO shiny or bolt face marks on the back of the case, NO hard bolt lift, and NO expansion of the case head (0.466" dia both before and after firing.)

I've only shot one Mountain Goat, a 9 5/8" Montana billy on a DIY solo hunt in -15 deg F temperature and crotch deep snow. I used my .30 Gibbs with a 180 gr Nosler Partition, and again it was a one shot kill and at under 100 yds.

I have one friend that has killed two billies with his bow, another friend that shot his billy with his .270 Win, and two other friends that killed their billies with their .22-250's. All were one shot kills.

At reasonable ranges (under 250 yds) a well placed bullet from any cartridge from the 7-08 up to the .30-06 should have no trouble killing a Mountain Goat.

As for scopes, it's hard to beat a good 3-9x.

When I return, a much younger man, I will still be carrying my 7mmExpress built on a win fwt action, 22" douglas xx barrel, mickey stock and the old reliable MX8 6X42 at 7.4lbs., 140 accubond at 1/2". I will then be ready to take the goats/sheep AND the beautiful mountains of Canada/Alaska - yeeeeeeeeeeha.

Yup, put that with a .338WM built with the same components and good handloads and you have THE ideal combo for mountain hunting. If, I were to build a pair or, better, two matched pairs of rifles for today's BC, AB and "Territories" hunting, I would do excactly this.

I would tend to use either the superb Canadian barrels by Ted Gaillard or those by Dan Lilja of Montana in stainless and would prefer P-64 actions over Classics, as they came from the factory. I would also prefer 3x9 Zeiss Conquests on the 7s and 1.75x6 Leupys on the .338s, but, this is all "ballpark".


Roughly three weeks until deer and some Elk-Moose seasons open here in southern BC, won't make it north this year, but, with a few more range sessions, I will be ready to rock.

Age and mountains, hey, it may take longer, but, it is doable and still fun. At 64, I just take my time and enjoy being there and try not to concern myself over being this age....the alternative REALLY sucks!

quote:

I'm chronographing 3030 fps with those bullets in my .257 AI with NO high pressure signs, ie, NO flattening of primers, NO shiny or bolt face marks on the back of the case, NO hard bolt lift, and NO expansion of the case head (0.466" dia both before and after firing.)

and if you worked up the load with the parent case you'd come close to the same performance.

Dewey, in fact I do have the perfect combo! Of course I have chosen the parent case 338-06 for the twin! Same action but original fwt 22" bbl bored to 338 and it weighs only 7.4 lbs and it does carry the 1.75X6E in Talleys.

Well, I have not totally given up on the mountains but really need to work with outfitter/guide in order to make certain I DO NOT become a mountain climber instead of a hunter. Too many stories from those who have gotten into troubles on the mountain because of the guide preferring to 'show his stuff" with indifference given to his hunter.

At 66 it is not my intention to "die on the mountain"! Now having said that it is but two months before I get on the horse in NM for a wonderful ride in the mountains on an elk hunt. Yes, horses/mules for most of the heavy lifting works for me.

I am with you all the way on "THE ALTERNATIVE REALLY SUCKS"

quote:

Originally posted by buffybr:

quote:

my suggestion is several -- the AI gives you NOTHING until you are at max pressures, over the original loading .. way way way too many times, people report 100fps IF gained.. but at greater pressure ..

I've never shot a standard .257 Roberts, but my Nosler 5th edition lists a maximum velocity of 2827 fps for the 115 gr bullet from a standard .257 Roberts. I'm chronographing 3030 fps with those bullets in my .257 AI with NO high pressure signs, ie, NO flattening of primers, NO shiny or bolt face marks on the back of the case, NO hard bolt lift, and NO expansion of the case head (0.466" dia both before and after firing.)

If you did the same work in the bob case, at the same pressure, you'd be within a couple feet.. not comapring a 47,000cup load to a 55,000 cup load ..
8000 /47000 =17%/4= 4.25% gain in vel
2957 at the same (normalized) pressure, for 62,500psi (more or less what 55K cup is)

3030-2957 = 73fps gain for the AI-- your loads compared the same loads in the regular .. well within the 100fps as i stated.

if you turn it into PSI - and run it at 65k (this is a more "normal" psi for AI rounds, as they don't show pressure as quickly as sloped shouldered rounds)
47kcup=~54k psi - max pressure being 65
11/54=~20.4/4 --5.1% +1 = 1.051*2879 = 3025.8 ...

you have gained 5 fps in your AI, at the same pressure, normalized, over the weakly loaded 257 roberts.

75 of 5 fps? its not worth bothering with.

on the 280 vs 280 AI -- hodgdon has data for both, 140gr NBT

280 rem - 2830fps, 48K cup (54-55kpsi)

280 AI - 2876 at 61,600 PSI ...

46 fps gain ...

switch to rel 22 in EITHER an get that much more gain.

as I frequently said, in terms of real, measured performance.. there's no real difference

that is, assuming, the same speed powder -- as max presure doesn't drive vels accross different powders, but you can predict results in the same basic case and the same powder.

case capacity is the real driver.. and you get about 25% of any gains in either at the top 1/3 of the performance envelope.. exactly? nope.. but close enough to chat about.

a case with 10% grater capacity, loaded to the same pressure/powder, gets about 2.5% increase in vels, same bullet.. 1/4 of the increase of one changes the vel...

in short, TANSTAAFL

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if you turn it into PSI - and run it at 65k (this is a more "normal" psi for AI rounds, as they don't show pressure as quickly as sloped shouldered rounds)

Jeff, as you have illuded, there are few secrets to the AI performance.
Modern actions, not really a secret, but needed to be safe with the higher pressures.
A little more powder. Ok not really a secret with the increase case capacity.
Higher Pressures. AI are speced in the 62,500-65,000 psi range.
Longer Barrels. Usually of the 26" variety.

If a person is not looking to ring ever ounce of performace out of a new rig, using higher pressures and a long barrel, then they should forget the AI. I wouldn't say the AI is worthless, but it is certainly not right for every build.

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If you did the same work in the bob case, at the same pressure, you'd be within a couple feet.. not comparing a 47,000cup load to a 55,000 cup load ..
8000 /47000 =17%/4= 4.25% gain in vel
2957 at the same (normalized) pressure, for 62,500psi (more or less what 55K cup is)

3030-2957 = 73fps gain for the AI-- your loads compared the same loads in the regular .. well within the 100fps as i stated.

if you turn it into PSI - and run it at 65k (this is a more "normal" psi for AI rounds, as they don't show pressure as quickly as sloped shouldered rounds)
47kcup=~54k psi - max pressure being 65
11/54=~20.4/4 --5.1% +1 = 1.051*2879 = 3025.8 ...

you have gained 5 fps in your AI, at the same pressure, normalized, over the weakly loaded 257 roberts.

75 of 5 fps? its not worth bothering with.

Sorry, jeff, you lost me there.

Like I posted earlier, I've never loaded a standard .257 Roberts, but I've been loading my .257 AI since 1978.

I don't have a pressure barrel or any way of actually measuring CUP or psi. I only have a micrometer and an electronic caliper to measure case diameters, a Chrony chronograph, and 45 years of reloading experience to visually check fired cases for signs of high pressure.

My 5th edition Nosler book lists loads for both the standard .257 Roberts and the .257 AI.

Their lawyer safe maximum loads for a 115 gr bullet lists 2827 fps (p 157) for the standard .257 Roberts, and 3013 fps (p 163) for the .257 AI, a gain of 186 fps for the Ackley.

As these are their maximum listed loads, I would assume these loads are close to safe maximum pressure for those two cartridges in their test rifles.

The 3030 fps load that I posted for my .257 AI is the chronographed 3 shot average for the load that I was working up, AND there were NO signs of high pressure. So following standard, safe reloading practices, my load is NOT at maximum pressure, and I could increase the powder charge and get even more velocity.

In short, the ACTUAL tested velocity of my .257 AI load that does not show any signs of excessive pressure and is 203 fps faster than THEORETICAL maximum load posted in Nosler's Reloading Manual for the standard .257 Roberts.

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I would assume these loads are close to safe maximum pressure for those two cartridges in their test rifles.

This would not be the correct assumption.....the .257 Roberts case will not be published with a load exceeding the SAAMI spec for that round.....

No reputable company such as Nosler will knowing do so....they might error but to knowingly publish loads exceeding SAAMI specs is definitely asking for trouble!

The AI version is loaded to significantly more pressure than the parent case.....I've even read folks (posting here) that their AI version shoots like a .257 Weatherby.....want to guess what pressure they are working at?....want to guess how much BS is in this statement?

The bottom line is that if you have a proper bolt rifle in .257 Roberts and you work up a load until you see signs of pressure and then back off a couple grains and then convert that same rifle and cases to "AI" and repeat the same thing, you'll wind up with about the same performance.

Buffy, The .257 Bob has been around since 1934. consequently, SAAMI pressure specs are bassed on what is safe in weakest know actions this round was ever loaded in, not what is safe in the modern test barrel.

With the AI's it's assumed they are build on a strong modern action, so the lawyers let them ramp up the pressure.

What this means is SAAMI max for a .257 bob is about 47,000 cup.
SAAMI max on the .257 AI is closer to 55,000 CUP.

Buffy,
i hear you .. having been a wildcatter for sometime, and learning the more or less hardway how to work up loads ... and having had a bob for nearly 20 years.. i thought long and hard about building one ..

so, let's start with agreeing that
1:the 25-06 and the bob (not AI) are signifigantly different in case capacities.
about 8.5 grains difference..

2:just using that as a basis, you would expect about 4% increase in vels, if loaded to the same pressure (assuming 2900fps for a bob, that results in 3008 fps for the same pressure

3: the 25-06 is loaded to 62,500, rather than 53,000 psi ..
resulting in 3150 vs 3008 per above ,, the pressure increased acounts for 3/5 of the vel gain, over the bob -- NOT the capacity

4: the 257 AI has about 3.9 grs greater capacity - less than 1/2 of the difference between the bob and the 25-06

5 an AI can "split the difference" between the bob and the 25-06 .. but only increasing capacity a net gain of 1.7% in vels, if loaded to the same pressure -- which should be 2949 at teh same pressure
6: the other 101fps gained is at the increased pressure .. 3/4 of the gain is due to pressure, rather than 3/5.. but that's MORE gain due to pressure

if you take out the 49fps gain from increased capacity at the same pressure, the 150 FPS gained is entirely from increased pressure (maybe not all, as a shoulder does help, but in cases this small, not much)

So, in a nutshell, if you can take 257 roberts brass and fireform it, making it thinner, and put 65K psi into it, shouldn't the parent brass be able to hold that much pressure, as well?

and you dont' gain about 50 fps, if you don't improve it...

which is what my bob does, btw.. just south of 3000 fps ...

and its a bob, using standard everything ..

So, basically, the gain is nearly always going to be under 100FPS, unless its somelike like a 25-20 to improved, which is like a 30% gain...

i know this seems convoluted, and perhaps it is .. but the facts being facts, an AI, loaded to the same pressure, gains LITTLE ...


the answer is, in this case, more pressure.. and more powder, and more recoil, to gain a hair of performance.. that can be done on the same parent brass.

they used to publish +p roberts loads in books.. i haven't seen them in awhile...

other pathetic loadings are american 8x57 loads .. powder puffs

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other pathetic loadings are american 8x57 loads .. powder puffs

Now come on Jeffe, you know that's not fair, you don't want to Powder Puffs a bad name.

The early 8x57's were barreled with .318 bores. In the 1920's, virtually all of them were rebarreled to .323. Now the 8.57 load data assumes we are all shooting .323 bullets down .318 bores. But for some magical reason, if you rechamber the 8x57 to 8mm.06 you no longer have to worry about the obsucre possiblility of a bore differential, and now you have a gun that can operate an normal, modern pressures.

Maybe we should publish load data for the 30.06 reflexting the use of .311 dia bullets? After all, someone just might use the wrong .30 cal bullet.

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A standard M-70 from the Carolinas will serve you nicely in .270 Winchester....

If you're insistant on a custom just buy the above rifle and have it sent to Jim Kobe for a rebarrel to .280 Remington.....

TooMany Tools is also a good man to do you a custom on such a fine base rifle.

As a matter of fact, there's quite a few folks that post here that will make you a fine rifle......and the sky is the limit for cost.

Send a few PMs and ask for prices..... but you can't get off to a better start than with a standard new M-70 in .270 Winchester

You could also buy this action and have either of the above folks make a custom .280 Rem for you.....just ask for prices.

I think you'll find that to start with a new M-70 is the cheaper route and you'll have a very fine custom....or semicustom if that's more appropriate.

YEP !!!.

I had someone recommend a 284 Winchester over the other 7mm options. What's the allure to that one? I just don't get it.

I hadn't really considered the 6.5x47 but, it seems like a good choice. There are just too many competing 6.5's though with the 6.5 Grendel, Creedmore, Lapua, Swede, ...