I don't think anyone is really arguing about Elmer's abilities or knowledge.

Also, attitudes about game animals between when Elmer was talking about and today have changed radically, both among hunters and the various state Game & Fish agencies.

The quality of bullets and scopes have improved since Elmer's time.

As his statement says, "Hell I Was There", and he was, he wasn't someone that just spent a couple of weeks a year in the mountains, he lived there and his experiences came about thru daily encounters.

Jack O'Connor was no slouch either and he was just as opinionated as Elmer, and those differences were clearly apparent in their writings.

I guess I'll be in the "unethical" group according to this thread. I don't plan on taking any of my larger bores to elk camp with me this year which include a 35 Whelen AI, 375 H&H, and a 416 Rigby. I was thinking more along the lines of a 7mm-08, or smaller.

Now with all this information, maybe I should rethink my choices.

Keith's advice is invaluable, especially for that non-resident hunter who likely saved for two or three years to come from, say the East Coast, for the Elk hunt of a lifetime. He was also a freezer hunter, that meat was food for the best part of a year for he and a family that included a wife and two children.

A non-resident Elk tag in most Western States is not cheap, and a guided hunt can compare with some of the less expensive Plains Game hunts in RSA we see advertised here, aside from that day long flight.

You wound an Elk, you are done; they don't tell you to just keep shooting until one falls over...

Rich

What was your favorite elk cartridge back when you hunted Rich?

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
A 7mm-08!!!! You can't be serious! It's your hunt but the bullet is more than most likely to bounce off!!!! You need at least 200 more grains of slug running at least 400 FPS faster!

Todd

Yeah, well, I've watched my dad continually come home with an elk in the back of the truck using his old pump action Remington in 270 using the venerable 130 gr Core-Lokts.

I figure I've got him bested with an additional 0.007" of bullet diameter, which elk always pay attention to, but his bullet out weighs my 120 gr TTSX at roughly 2925 fps.

I guess that is my confusion because his old rifle combination should have never worked on any of those old elk, which means mine won't either and it is likely unethical. But, if I were female, I'm sure ethics wouldn't come into play nor my rifle selection.

Maybe I should jump up to the 416 Rigby with 400 gr TSX bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
Not to mention the inevitable grizzly bear charge!

Todd

If I get charged by a grizzly bear in the middle of November while hunting elk here in Colorado I'm in serious trouble especially since I've hunted this same unit for about 7 years now during the same season and haven't even seen a black bear. I'm more apt to see a coyote or fox, me thinks.

Who knows? Maybe this is my lucky year!

The funny part is I took this same rifle with me bear hunting last week! I guess I'm lucky I escaped with my life!

You have to admit.....we hear a griz or two at night in the other tent

One for damn sure!!!

Shit!!

Sounded like two or three

Between the 75 mph monsoons and now we gotta worry about g-bears Colorado is bad ass on a Missouri boy

Yup, you better bring a bigger gun! Things are suddenly different this year!

30-30 is my g-bear gun + I can run faster than you

A 270 shooting 150g Partitions is great elk medicine. I don't take "Texas heart shots". I do jump shoot elk in the black timber. I've never lost an elk and I've taken plenty. If you wound an elk and he's running away shoot him in the neck for Christ's sake. If you can't make that shot, start practicing.

quote:

What started this whole mess? Someone posting that Elmer Keith's opinion on what is or is not an adequate elk cartridge, was the ONLY REALISTIC approach.

It was Elmer's opinion, and it did not matter to him how many folks were killing elk with .270's/.308's/.30-06's and other calibers, he thought that the .33 and larger calibers were the ONLY ones capable of killing elk.

The famous Duke of Wellington...he of Waterloo fame and later British Prime Minister...was of the opinion that any calibre musket under .729" diamter wasn't up to the job either.

Now there's no doubt he seen a few battles over his life but was his opinion really so valid that it stopped the British Army adopting the .577" Minie until after Wellington's death...so that he could not block its adoption?

People's opinions on calibres favour those calibres that have worked for them. So both EK and J O'C are correct.

A .338 may work for you as it did Elmer but OTOH a .270 WCF may work for you as it did Jack.

Gosh! Who knows even a .257 Weatherby Magnum may work for you as your ideal elk calibre if Roy's opinion is to be believed.

My good friend from Colorado Snellstrom won't hesitate to cary his .257 Roberts and he knows a thing or two about elk killing

Jack always wheeled and dealed and got free guided hunts. He also studied animal anatomy and could place his shots accurately.

If you buy a guided hunt you could take a 22 Hornet. The guide is likely to kill your Elk for you after you shoot it, but think of it as a mark sullivan stateside special...

Rich

I just choose to think that Elmer can't be proven wrong about the 338 and above bores using heavy bullets on big game. The anecdotal evidence of killing game with lighter cartridges does not prove him wrong. He had a preference and stated it. Stated lots of facts and lots of stories from his day to back it up. He did that with crippled hands, paper and ink. He also had to make a living and he staked out his "brand" in the firearms world clearly.
My favorite line from Elmer was printed in a book and in the Gun Notes of American Rifleman where he quoted the 30-06 with the 220 grain Sierra BT as "should be a wonderfully flat shooting pest cartridge." Great line, and still true. It is a wonderfully flat shooting pest cartridge is it not?

One thing is what Elmer could do, another thing is what he would adwise others to do. If he said out loud that a.270 was ok, can we imagine the amount of idiots wounding animals all over... By advising a .375, he scared away the biggest cityslickers, and was safe to believe that the shots hit would at least wound them hard enough for easy tracking.

Times have changed. A .308 Win with a 165gs Premium bullet today, is a lot more potent than a .338 Win Mag with a 250grs slug back in 1970.

I think Elmer would love the new stuff, and I believe he was smart enough to follow the evolution, rather than sticking to old theories.

quote:

What was your favorite elk cartridge back when you hunted Rich?

This question seems to remain unanswered!

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:

Times have changed. A .308 Win with a 165gs Premium bullet today, is a lot more potent than a .338 Win Mag with a 250grs slug back in 1970.

Not 100% true

There is indeed a far better bullet available today then 30 years ago but....

My buddy Snellstrom used a .338 WM in South Africa this past June with cup and core Sierra's

The skinning shed spilled over

No way!!! A non-premium bullet on safari?

The .338 WM is a great round and no doubt carries a powerful punch

Funny how animals die when you shoot them in the lungs

For what it's worth: Read this some time In a Colorado history book, between 1966 and 1969. The last griz killed in Colorado was a cattle killer named Ole Three Toes. He was killed on Grand Mesa by a serious ELK hunter carrying a 45-70. One of Elmer's ilk I guess. Oh! He dispatched the bear at close range with 5 shots. Now that Elk hunter had the right stuff. Oh well that's how I remember it. roger

I am new here and have be
en enjoying the back and forth of Elk hunting. I plan on going one day not for trophy but meat hunt but I know my limitations of my 7x57 with 175 grain as far as what I think it is for now. Good reading, some funny.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

I'd probably OK my wife on a 270 with a monometal, but is a 243 much different? How much.
My personal indecision just leads me to grab a 338 or 375 and be done with it.

I recall a discussion on 24hrCF about Elk cartridges,
A guy trumpeted the necessity of no less than a medium bore magnum for elk,.. saying a .270w was not the best choice,
but then went on to say his emergency back-Up rifle was .257R/120gn, should something happen to his go-to magnum.
He then got all upset when I asked him why he would so choose to knowingly compromise his own 'choice of calibre' ethics,
just so he could continue on the hunt....The .257r became good enough for elk when it suited him.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

I'd probably OK my wife on a 270 with a monometal, but is a 243 much different? How much.
My personal indecision just leads me to grab a 338 or 375 and be done with it.

I recall a discussion on 24hrCF about Elk cartridges,
A guy trumpeted the necessity of no less than a medium bore magnum for elk,.. saying a .270w was not the best choice,
but then went on to say his emergency back-Up rifle was .257R/120gn, should something happen to his go-to magnum.
He then got all upset when I asked him why he would so choose to knowingly compromise his own 'choice of calibre' ethics,
just so he could continue on the hunt....The .257r became good enough when it suited him.

Funny how the 270 is ok for the wife but not the husband, isn't it?

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:

quote:

Originally posted by Nordic2:I dont find ass shots or backshots ethical what ever caliber you use.

What's the bullet Entry point got to do with it??
I can't imagine hunting Elk in the timber, without a bullet and a Bullet delivery system capable of driving through the vitals from any angle needed...
..But I guess that is why I lugged the .338 and the 275 Speer up the mountain back when that was what was available.

01,

At one end we have people like Ray Atkison ,DWM.Bell and yourself, who have the skill and judgement to successfully utilised the increased penetrative ability of the larger bore .33cal.
allowing for more options for potential killing shots on game.
(Bell skillfully brained elephants from most angles using 6.5mm and 7mm, but wisely used .318WR/250solid for the challenging going-away harder to penetrate shot-through neck & into the brain)
The larger bore is all good a well if one has the skill to perform such shots.

Yet at the other end of the spectrum, we have folks that advocate larger more powerful bores for people who don't have such skills ,
who simply rely on the belief that more dia. & power somehow makes up for lack of marksmanship.
Such approach clearly didn't work for T. Roosevelt, since he left a long string of poorly shot- wounded African game with his big-bore.

- now for some empirical food for though:
Mr.Bell wrote that he needed to assist and killed DG with his 7x57, that other hunters next to him hopelessly missed or wounded with their .450 SxS.
Selby and other seasoned PHs of the time [and even of this day],have accounts where inept clients completely missed elephant at close range with a big bore.
The clear reason the smaller bore .375hh has earned such a reputation as a giant killer, is that recreational hunters found they could:
shoot it more comfortably and more accurately for more consistent shot placement into the vitals.
When numerous seasoned PHs over the decades themselves notice the increased proficiency of recreational hunters with smaller more manageable bores,
and such PHs then recommend the smaller bore because it mean noticeably less instances of dangerous follow -ups on DG for themselves as a PH,

Then it stands to reason that:
if one cannot handle the recoil of a larger bore and/or one does not have the skill to utilise that power to effectively direct the bullet for the more challenging shots,
Then its highly likely the larger bore is going to prove more of a disadvantage,detriment and even a danger.

ITs funny how some recreational hunters get hung on extra velocity, extra bullet weight and xtra energy figures,and the impression the extra recoil & blast gives them,
while seasoned pro-hunters like Pondoro Taylor, who fired many thousands of rounds of .375hh at African game, including the successful taking of some
100 elephants and 400 Cape Buffalo with that particular cartridge,...then went on to sing the praises of the lower cal. -lower recoiling, lower powered,
and lower bullet weight -.350 Rigby.
HIs empirical based evidence revealed that the .350 killed game every bit as well as .375hh out to at least 150yd and some distance beyond.
...all with a 225gn Steel jacket projectile at a pedestrian 2500mv...
(hence me thinks his success with such is attributed mostly to bullet construction & shot placement, with obviously sufficient energy in practical terms,
but probably not enough to impress people who like to rely more on graphs and ballistic charts to determine suitability and effectiveness)

Some of the distant white hunter greats of Africa and some of the highly seasoned & respected PHs of the more modern Safaris since the late 1940s,
have been advocates of using an effective a cal. you can handle rather than larger one you cannot,...and their advise as we all know is not based
on reading hunting magazines or forums,or by trying to promote a product, but by doing many yrs and yards in the African bush, taking many heads of game
[from a few hundred to even a thousand+) ... in many cases with no body else backing them up.
_ Even Saeed subscribes to the same train of though, having himself taken by far much more game than most anybody on AR.
He loves his .375/404 wildcat and shoots it very well, but still acknowledges you don't need all that power and bullet
if not shooting at some of the extended ranges like he does....he acknowledges std.375H&H would do the job just as well at the more common-ordinary ranges.

quote:

When numerous seasoned PHs over the decades themselves notice the increased proficiency of recreational hunters with smaller more manageable bores,
and such PHs then recommend the smaller bore because it mean noticeably less instances of dangerous follow -ups on DG for themselves as a PH,

I've known a couple of PH's who have said the opposite, that most of their followups on buffalo, et al., are after hits with .375's. The point that everyone agrees on is that a person should use the largest calbre that they shoot well with and feel confident with.

By the way, even Jack OConnor had nice things to say about the 416Rigby, though he considered handloads of 400gn at 2600fps to be too unpleasant for his recommendation. He apparently stayed close to the factory levels of 2400fps.

We're not talking DG here and big uglies there, fellers, we're talking about elk, and the need to shoot them with a .33, or larger, caliber.

I would venture to guess there are far more elk killed every year across the western U.S with the calibers from .277 to .308 than all those killed from .33 and up. I'm sure those numbers killed with a .264, or smaller, are fairly equivalent to the .33 and above category.

My knowledge of elk hunting is just 3 hunts and two dead elk

Both fell to light weight bullets and standard long actions.

Both ran less than 50 yards

150 grn Accubond in 30-06

140 grn Accubond in .270

Trax,
Thanks for the thoughtful follow up. If anyone asked my opinion, they have not, I would say; "using a gun that can fully penetrate the vitals from any shot you are going to take that you shoot well is the best plan." Then I would say, "don't deviate from the plan..." Many folks can't really shoot well, they just pretend they can. Also they planned on passing up that quartering away or worse shot but don't. We will never avoid the human problems like these but the "gun" and "bullet" facts to me seem to be quite clear. I could meet my own goals with my son's 260 Remington and 140 Nosler PT, I think. With my 30-06 and Barnes 180 X, I am pretty certain though I have never done it. With a RN or FN solid in either caliber I know. With my 35 Whelen and a 225 Barnes X, yes. Though my 338 has went to another's hands, as described earlier I know.
The only reason I entered this discussion was because "Elmer" was in the title and people seem to like to pick about the past while resting in the present that these pioneers made for us. I simply don't like that. I have proved much of what Elmer "preached" to my satisfaction, including the 44 mag. on game. Broke both front shoulders, big hole through the lungs, dead in 50 yards on a running elk 40-50 yards away. 250 grain hard cast medium load, recovered the bullet under the hide on the far side. A 1980's 30-06 cup and core kind of dead. I have also shot through 4 foot of big whitetail deer from South to north with a 180X breaking bone, muscle, Paunch grass, Lungs, throat, rock on the far side Dead on the spot from a long way off, for me anyway, just over 400 yards. That is where he stopped and looked back and I was sitting over crossed sticks by the time he did so. Just never had the chance, read need, to hit an Elk with it that way. I would not be afraid to try.
Best regards to all.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
We're not talking DG here and big uglies there, fellers, we're talking about elk, and the need to shoot them with a .33, or larger, caliber.

I would venture to guess there are far more elk killed every year across the western U.S with the calibers from .277 to .308 than all those killed from .33 and up. I'm sure those numbers killed with a .264, or smaller, are fairly equivalent to the .33 and above category.

I haven't read all of this silliness and so maybe somebody's already mentioned it, but I believe part of what we're or y'all are talking about is actually writers need to print or publish something sale-able.

Controversy sells. Contrary opinion sells. Someone trying to sell an article that promotes the "Same old same old works just fine!" is gonna be eating over at his sisters house again tonight.

Some feller named Townsley wrote in this months NRA magazine about back up handguns for bear. He seemed to think the big huge cartridges were the only solution to living long enough to write about it. One of the things he mentioned that I thought was particularly funny was that he'd not decided which turbo super magnum pistol he'd be taking on his next bear hunt up here in AK. I think we all know he needs neither. The writer will be on a fully guided NRA paid for hunt, fully complemented with several NRA staff, the guides staff, etc,.....The chances of the writer getting mauled by a bear are non existent.

I think Elmer wrote what he did in part to make money. O Connor too. Taking anything any of these guys write as Gospel usually doesn't jive with actual real world experiences.

quote:

I think Elmer wrote what he did in part to make money. O Connor too. Taking anything any of these guys write as Gospel usually doesn't jive with actual real world experiences

+1 The real world tells me stick any bullet in the right place so it destroys the vital organs.

It well kill shortly any thing you have shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
I haven't read all of this silliness and so maybe somebody's already mentioned it, but I believe part of what we're or y'all are talking about is actually writers need to print or publish something sale-able.

Controversy sells. Contrary opinion sells. Someone trying to sell an article that promotes the "Same old same old works just fine!" is gonna be eating over at his sisters house again tonight...

I think Elmer wrote what he did in part to make money. O Connor too. Taking anything any of these guys write as Gospel usually doesn't jive with actual real world experiences.

And

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
+1 The real world tells me stick any bullet in the right place so it destroys the vital organs.

It will kill shortly any thing you have shot.

My thoughts exactly.

I grew up reading Outdoor Life, belonged to the Outdoor Life Book Club, and bought and read many books by Elmer and Jack.

I thank Elmer for the .44 magnum pistol as I currently have two of them and they are among my favorites. However with rifles, and specifically elk rifles, I tend to follow more along thoughts of Jack O'Connor.

I've certainly killed my share of elk, and all but one were killed with .30 caliber or smaller bullets. The other one was with an arrow, but they don't count in this discussion.

I can also see the difference between us "local" elk hunters who have several weeks (or months if you count archery season) and can practically kill elk in our back yards to a nonresident hunter who has traveled thousands of miles, spent $10-15,000, and has only a week to kill his elk.

But regardless of which hunter we are, we should only take ethical, high percentage shots at elk or other game animals. I don't believe in extreme long range shots, Hail Mary shots, or Texas heart shots.

I also believe that most hunters do not shoot or practice enough with their rifles. One day at the range the week before the season opens is not enough. Its also pretty commonly accepted that the larger the cartridge that you shoot, the more that it will thump both your shoulder and your wallet. Just look at all of the posts against Weatherby and other magnum cartridges.

With a proper bullet, and properly placed, a .270 Win or .30-06 will easily kill any elk on the planet. These cartridges will also not thump the shooters shoulder or wallet as bad larger cartridges. And if a shooter is not afraid of his rifle, he will probably shoot it more often and better.

FYI, The NRA doesn't pay for anybody's hunts. The President and all of the board of directors are unpaid volunteers.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
I've known a couple of PH's who have said the opposite, that most of their followups on buffalo, et al., are after hits with .375's.

well if they were misplaced shots with the .375,How is also being inept with a larger bore really going to help?
and lets be honest, even properly heart shot animals have run equally good yards regardless of whether a broad head, 7x57, or much larger bore was used.

quote:

The point that everyone agrees on is that a person should use the largest calibre that they shoot well with and feel confident with.

Even if a .458Lott was the largest cal. I could really shoot well, I still would not lug it around the hills chasing elk or more likely the tenacious
Sambar deer in my case....I much prefer to swing a 7x61 Sharpe, 30/06,..at most a 8x68s or .338win... with 140-200gn Monometal.

But if someone wants to lug their favourite cumbersome .450 Rigby mauser around for Elk, be my guest.
reminds me of the people who lug around on their wrist a 12,000ft depth rate Rolex Deep Sea, just for the office....

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
FYI, The NRA doesn't pay for anybody's hunts. The President and all of the board of directors are unpaid volunteers.

While that may be true, you and I don't believe for a second that most or really any of these hunts that professional gun writers participate in and feature in magazine articles are full retail priced or invoiced.

Barnes sponsors this portion, Leopold this portion, Remington there and Mossy Oak here.

It'd be a little hard for me to believe that the NRA doesn't,.......uh,........"contribute"? for the bills on some of the hunts their staff writers participate in. Yeah maybe the African outfits or the Alaskan outfits just pony up a 100% donated hunt in order to have their contact info mentioned in those cute little side bar paragraphs, but then again, do the outfitters pay for the plane tickets, taxidermy, dip and pack etc,...?

I'm not complaining and am very happy to have the NRA in all its evolutions making sure I can enjoy what I do, but please,....with the exception of Phil Shoemaker, lets not attribute beneficence where it ain't applicable. These writers write to generate revenue. Controversy, (true or not,) sells papers.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
We're not talking DG here and big uglies there, fellers, we're talking about elk,
and the need to shoot them with a .33, or larger, caliber.

However, we can use reference to .33cal calibre performance on large ugly DG,
eg:
> .338win is one of the best penetrators on African and Asian buff
I can and has drill buff end to end......also A discussion with buff guide Graham Williams at SCI,
also highlighted to me the penetrative power of 33cal on buff, [he noted it as better than .375]
and stated he has noted no great difference in killing effect between .338win and .375H&H.

> Cape buff are also effectively culled using 33cal 200gn monometals.

But in some peoples minds a round suitable for elk, begins at .338cal...

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
I've known a couple of PH's who have said the opposite, that most of their followups on buffalo, et al., are after hits with .375's.

well if they were misplaced shots with the .375, How is also being inept with a larger bore really going to help?

That's a rather 'black and white' portrayal and not exactly the point. No one is suggesting that the shooter with a 375 use a larger bore if that is the max that s/he can handle. These issues are always on a sliding scale, and the differences are in the margins.

For example, a person may assume two reasonably adept hunters, taking two shoots at two black shaped buffalo at 80 yards. Each buffalo is facing right, apparently broadside, with the head pulled around toward the shooter. The shots are identical, and hit a little far back in the lungs due to the optical illusion of being a full broadside and landing on the left side of the circle of intent. Both run off at the shot. The one shot with the 416 is found after 300 yards, dead. The one with the 375 is found alive and is stopped with a shot to the head during a charge. Post mortums provide identical shot placement. That is the kind of hypothetical that would lead a PH to say that the 416 is a better buffalo round than a 375. Examining a few hundred buffalo would allow one to extrapolate such scenarios. As has been said, "diameter counts." The PH's I've known have tended to choose 458, 470, 500, and 577 for themselves.

However, diameter as a criterion must be weighed with other criteria for every hunter and only the composite outcome is applied in calling whether or not to take a shot. Both of the shots in the scenario above may be called ethical and they are a part of real-world hunting. Of course, this whole example needs to be scaled back for a much less-dangerous elk. (All deer and larger are potentially dangerous.)

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
As has been said, "diameter counts."
The PH's I've known have tended to choose 458, 470, 500, and 577 for themselves.

So its a miracle that Selby survived for at least 40yrs of full season PH duties with a lesser .416?
using old round nose solids for every DG species, be it guiding clients or numerous DG culls...and burning a .416 barrel out in the process.
He stated that .416 cartridge & solids never-ever let him down through his extensive career.
Now, however the wave of new world wisdom, says he probably really needed something from .458 up to .577cal.... WTF?

Since the .416 is a long well proven great performer when aimed correctly, and probably even better so with todays tech bullets,
What is it then that the todays PH you know seem to be lacking in themselves, that they need to reach for a .577?

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
The one shot with the 416 is found after 300 yards, dead. The one with the 375 is found alive and is stopped with a shot to the head during a charge. Post mortums provide identical shot placement. That is the kind of hypothetical that would lead a PH to say that the 416 is a better buffalo round than a 375. Examining a few hundred buffalo would allow one to extrapolate such scenarios. As has been said, "diameter counts."

Saeed has used many diff size cartridges for his extensive hunting in Africa, however he has put the larger ones down in favor of
his pair of .375 wildcats. They pretty much kill everything as required time after time, close in or far away.
Yet we still see people on AR , who have nowwhere near his experience advising him otherwise, or questioning his choice of cartridge.

Pondoro Taylor killed some 100 elephant and 400 buff with .375 bore and found it a great and deadly performer on such.
He pursued ele in the thick stuff with .375 solids.......but like Selbys career, I guess its just yet another 'miracle'
that Taylor lived to tell the accounts of his own extensive career.
IF there was a lack of .375 bore ability to take DG, why didn't he sensibly drop using it well before shooting that large amount of large DG with it?
Why did he so often trust .375 bore on DG even when nobody was there to back him up?

Now days we have bravado client hunters and PHs both carrying large bore cannons,and between them both firing,
they still sometimes find it hard to do the job cleanly.

quote:

Of course, this whole example needs to be scaled back for a much less-dangerous elk.

..
Ok then,....Q./ do you encourage or discourage your lady partner from hunting elk with a .270win?

OK, since we've moved from elk to Africa...

On my first South African hunt I shot a waterbuck with my 7 mm Rem mag. The shot felt and looked good but the bull disappeared in the bush. We found blood at first, but then no more.

We spent the next 5 days looking for that bull, and the whole time my PH/Outfitter criticized me for using such a small caliber and bullet.

One of the things he told me was "If you can't shoot straight, you should use a big enough caliber and bullet to get the job done."

Finally at the end of the 5th day we found my waterbuck. My PH/Outfitter immediately shot with his .375 H&H, and I shot a split second later.

The bull dropped, and when we walked up to him we found two 7 mm bullet holes in his chest and one .375 hole in one of his feet.

Back to the original topic, I just ordered 200 of the new 150g Accubond Long Range bullets for my 270 Weatherby. I'm thinking of them as an antelope, deer, sheep bullet, but really want to put the rifle through it's paces at the local range where we have targets out 1000 yards (I don't shoot at game past 500 yards myself). At 3300 fps with a BC of .625 these bullets should be interesting. I'm taking my tried and true 500 Jeffery elk hunting this year, hopefully it will be enough gun even for Elmer!

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
FYI, The NRA doesn't pay for anybody's hunts. The President and all of the board of directors are unpaid volunteers.

While that may be true, you and I don't believe for a second that most or really any of these hunts that professional gun writers participate in and feature in magazine articles are full retail priced or invoiced.

Barnes sponsors this portion, Leopold this portion, Remington there and Mossy Oak here.

It'd be a little hard for me to believe that the NRA doesn't,.......uh,........"contribute"? for the bills on some of the hunts their staff writers participate in. Yeah maybe the African outfits or the Alaskan outfits just pony up a 100% donated hunt in order to have their contact info mentioned in those cute little side bar paragraphs, but then again, do the outfitters pay for the plane tickets, taxidermy, dip and pack etc,...?

I'm not complaining and am very happy to have the NRA in all its evolutions making sure I can enjoy what I do, but please,....with the exception of Phil Shoemaker, lets not attribute beneficence where it ain't applicable. These writers write to generate revenue. Controversy, (true or not,) sells papers.

As usual we have people on here posting information that they just made up in their own mind, but really don't have a clue about what they are posting about. No wonder the internet has such a bad reputation for unreliable information.