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While discussing the quartet 270/7RM/3006/300m, the question of elk always arises. It reminds me of a 1982 article from Elmer Keith: Elmer Keith, 1982, "Big Game Bullets" "... I sent a hunting party to Charlie Snook at Elk Summit in the sixties. Each had a .270 rifle and 150-grain bulleted ammo. Two of them shot three elk each and the other two each shot two elk, they wounded and lost them all [=10 elk!]. Charlie was as mad as a wet hen when they wanted to book again for the next year. He told them he would only book them if they came to me and took my recommendations for an elk rifle. They did so and I told them to get Model 70 Winchester rifles in .375 H&H and use 300-grain bullets. Then sight the rifles 150 yards for that heavy-timbered elk country. They booked again and after the hunt they each came in with a fifth of scotch for me and claimed they got four elk with one shot! "Leslie Simson, who hunted Africa for years and filled many museum groups of African game, used a .577 double for lion and all the big stuff, and for plains game he recommended a rifle of .35 caliber throwing a 275-grain bullet at 2500 feet per second (fps) and if any change is required, then add bullet weight rather than velocity. After a lifetime of hunting from the Arctic to Africa, I concur with his findings 100 percent. "I stopped booking anyone for elk unless they used a rifle throwing at least a 250-grain bullet and not less than .33 caliber in the rifle, as I was getting pretty tired of trailing wounded elk. Summing up our present big-game bullets, the 250-.338 and 300-grain [.375] Nosler Partition jacket always gave good results even though the point-half would blow off at close range. . . The Sierra Boattails in both 250 grains .338 and 300-grain .375 were by all odds the most accurate game bullets I have ever fired but at the time did not expand much on broadside shots at antelope. They also blew up on bones of heavier game. The 275 old heavy jacket Speer was, for many years, my standby in the various .338 caliber rifles." +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | ||
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Its a nice bedtime story, nothing more. | |||
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The larger caliber, heavier bullets, are definitely an advantage when a double-lung or heart shot is not accomplished or when heavy bone is struck. Shooting elk around the fringes with a 270 is still an almost guaranteed failure unless the liver is struck. Larger bullets will leave a much better blood trail and have a much better chance of breaking an animal down. Hunters that hunt elk in the timber like Elmer did, normally opt for large caliber rifles. Many experienced hunters use a heavy loaded 45-70, or 220 gr. 30/06 for digging elk out of dark timber. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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Yup. I told my close friend, made of Walnut and Steel, that bedtime story for years in Elk Camp, looking at a hanging elk with a "dollar size hole in and a dollar size hole out" and it never failed to put the old .338 Win Mag with the 275 Speers' into peaceful slumber until I needed them again. The 35 Whelen and like with the 275 Speer was pretty great as well as mentioned by Mr. Simson above. Really can't beat the "Mid-Weight" bores on Elk. You can equal them today with the premium bullets, but not beat them. What is not told in the story could be this: Hunting deep timber elk often involves Elk departing away at high speed and lots of crashing noise. Bad angle shots are common. Back in the 1960's, taking a shot like that with comfort meant 338 or 35 caliber with very heavy cup and core bullets. As noted above as well, one still had to choose bullets wisely. The Speer had a better rate of success than the very nice Sierra bullets. It had a heavier jacket it was presumed. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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If people could shoot it wouldn't take more than a 22. | |||
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 Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Elmer was right! | |||
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 Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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And, as much as I admire the man, he was entirely willing to extrapolate where the vitals were on an elk obscured by brush with only the horns in sight. What he considered as a shot entirely worth taking is pretty iffy by most standards. No mystery why he needed big, tough bullets to finish what he started. | |||
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Inversely, if Elmer was fully cognizant that his big tough bullets would reliably penetrate through the vitals of an elk obscured by brush, would it not only be an iffy shot were the bullets not big and tough? Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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 The .270 was not Elmer's favorite. It carried too much of the O'Connor stigma and they didn't care for each other too much. A .270 story told by Elmer wouldn't have much glory in it for that cartridge ; maybe even a little negative exaggeration. The .270's game taking history speaks for itself.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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And to think I was considering loaning a friend either my 300 Win mag with 180 grain bullets, or loaning him my sons R280 with 150 noslers??? I guess I need to re-consider....  | |||
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Most of what Elmer said doesn't ring true to me. | |||
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Jason, both of those rounds will work, though if you have a 338 so much the better. If the person is learning to shoot, then the 280. Basically, the 280 just requires a tighter accuracy spread when estimating a doable shot. Instead of a 10" limit, think 8", or instead of a 8" far cicle think 6" as the limiting factor. What Elmer said rings true to me, though his attitude on the 270 needs a grain of salt. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Properly constructed bonded core bullets and now properly constructed monometal bullets have changed the hunting game far more than O'Conner's pimping the 270 WCF or Keith's pimping big n heavy. Elk certainly aren't armor plated but they certainly deserve better than a minimalist caliber/cartridge effort. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Only loan your friend the rifle he/she shots most accurately. If accuracy is a toss up - go with the 300 WinMag. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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I grew up reading Elmer and O'Connor. I normally go along with Elmer's choices and use larger calibers. But I also know what I have actually witnessed over the 22 years I have been hunting elk, and the 45+ years I have been hunting white tail deer and larger game. The one fact that any reasonably knowledgeable hunter with any reasonable amount of experience, can not argue with or dispute, is that a properly placed bullet, does kill game, regardless of the diameter of the bullet. The guide I have been hunting elk with since 1992, has an irrational hatred of the .7mm. Rem. Mag., and flatly states that he has seen more elk shot and lost by hunters using .7mm. Rem Mags than ANY Other cartridge. But after his little fit, and the discussion turns reasonable, he admits that it is not the fault of that caliber, but the fault of the hunters for over gunning themselves and not spending enough time shooting the gun to become proficient with it coupled with a poor choice of bullet. I personally, along with 5 other folks, watched a hunter kill a 5x5 bull elk at 500 yards+ with one shot from a .270 using 150 grain bullets. Perfect heart/lung shot and the bull stumbled about 30 yards and that was it. No the bull was not DRT, but was DPDQ. To me the larger calibers do offer some advantages, but they are not for everyone. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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A Swedish gunwriter did a test shooting throgh a curtain of different sized branches with .308w,9,3*62 and 12c slugs the conclution was dont shoot through branches the bullets will tumble and deflect whatever cal. you use. | |||
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With properly constructed bullets a bigger bullet means a bigger hole and more internal trauma. So I would prefer the 30-06 over the 270 WCF. But I would also prefer the 338-06 over the 30-06 because I prefer to use more than enough. Same reason I'll take a 40 S&W or 45 ACP over a 9mm Luger cartridge every time. With equal bullet construction the 40 and 45 will cause more trauma than the 9. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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It's been done in the US on numerous occasions too. One of tests I read included everything from a .22-250 on up through a 12 bore shooting .72 cal hardcast lead balls. The conclusion is always that nothing short of a howitzer can reliably shoot through brush and consistently hit something on the other side. This is not to say that if you shoot through brush at an elk you won't hit it; it's just impossible to know exactly where you'll hit it. I guess using a huge slug improves your odds of at least crippling it enough that you can finish it off, but that's still not a gamble that an ethical hunter takes, IMO. | |||
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Yep I'm aware that new bullet technology combined at high velocity reportedly "turn the 9mm Luger into a big time killing cartridge". However that same bullet technology at high velocity still advance the 40 and 45 beyond the trauma performance of the 9mm. I'm not arguing the "manly thing to use", I'm arguing to use the biggest and baddest bullet/cartridge combo that the individual can accurately handle for game to be hunted or for the situation likely to be in encountered. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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I remember reading Elmer were saying that under no circumstances would he recommend under .338"cal for Africa for any game. Nothing could be further from the truth.. When this said I have all Elmers books which I enjoy reading over and over. I enjoy especially the stories from the years of the depression of 1920s and 30s. DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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Pile of poop written by a guy that should know better. I have killed 4 elk with a .280 shooting 140gr Partitions. Put the bullet in the right place and the elk is dead. Garbage! | |||
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It's a good question and it has good answers. Basically, the smaller the calibre and less powerful calibre puts some restrictions on a hunter. A 14 year-old girl or a 40 year old man take the same restrictions on themselves when they choose a 270/7mm over a 338. There will be shots that they will need to pass up because the margins of lethality are different. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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It should be remembered that Kieth's opinion on firearms were formed well before high velocity capable bullets were developed. Hunting bullet failures were much more prevalent in the 1930's and 40's than they are today. The elk are the same, but the bullets are different. I'm not exactly ancient ,but I remember when the first spitzer CoreLokts became available in our LGS. That was at least 20 years before the first bonded core or monometal bullets, and also well before the first Nosler Partitions. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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Elmer and O'Connor both had their beliefs/opinions. Both were successful hunters, and both had their supporters and detractors. What difference does it REALLY make, concerning the caliber another hunter uses, if they are satisfied with the results they are getting???? The guide I talked about in an earlier response that has a problem with people using a .7mm Rem Mag, regularly kills elk with a .25-06. Proper bullet placement is or should be the first consideration, regardless of the game or the caliber. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Nailed it.....Thank you Craze ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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How about a 426 yard shot into the high shoulder spine of a bull elk, breaking both shoulders and 3-4 vertebrae in-between and bullet recovered weighing 212 grain under the hide on the far side? How about a 325+ yard shot up through the flank, liver, lungs and out the throat of a Cow elk and dead on the spot. 275 Speer exited. Never shot an elk with a 7 mag. Shot one with a 7 x57 and a 160 speer. That one landed a bit too far back on a running bull at long range and I had to find him and meet him in the brush and shoot him again running towards me. He died too! Point being, the 275 Speer was available to Elmer and everybody else afterwards up to a few years ago. Barnes was not. I have full faith that I could replicate both shots described above with a 180 Barnes from my old 30-06, sort of. I think I could kill both elk. I don't think I could break as much bone on the first one. I doubt the hole on the second one would have been "dollar" sized. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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Todd, What I'm saying is to use whatever bullet/cartridge combo that you can accurately and cleanly kill your game animal with; regardless of who the "you" is. If the bullet/cartridge combo meets the "accurately and cleanly" then it's ethical. Nothing more, nothing less. If you desire to use a 270 WCF for elk I'm fine with that as long as you use a bullet appropriate for elk. If it helps, I believe a 6.5x55 with a proper bullet is an ethical cartridge to use on elk. Right now my smallest-handy rifle is a 300 RSAUM chambered in a M77 SS SA rifle. Were I leaving on an elk hunt tomorrow that's what I'd be using - loaded with 165gr CEB MTH (HP BT spitzer copper monometal) bullets which are very accurate in this rifle. My best bud, now deceased, used a M70 chambered in 300 WinMag loaded with 180gr bonded bullet as his Colorado elk rifle/cartridge/bullet combo. Hope this clarifies things... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Am I the only one who noticed the very generous bag limits?! As someone who only knows of Elmer Keith via the internet, I'd say that those "hunters" need a little more time at the range. It's been 32 years, bullet technology has improved. If my meat-hunting relatives in Montana have managed to bag elk with their 270's for the past 30 years (which they have), I can't imagine how the fault lies in the bullet/caliber. ____________________________ If you died tomorrow, what would you have done today ... 2018 Zimbabwe - Tuskless w/ Nengasha Safaris 2011 Mozambique - Buffalo w/ Mashambanzou Safaris | |||
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What old "Marketing" Elmer failed to state, is that guns don't kill elk, people do. Who couldn't wound and lose a elk with a 375 if you really wanted to? Who couldn't kill an elk clean with a 270 if you really wanted to? | |||
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I don't know of any current modern hunting cartridges and bullets being sensibly recommend to purposely shoot through obstructions to try and reach and humanely kill a target...... so I cannot in anyway imagine it being a good approach in Elmers time.
bear in mind, Elmer also claimed to have killed mule deer at 600yd with his .44mag revolver...  | |||
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One answer was given to this question above, and there is another aspect. I picture the killing circle to be greater with more powerful cartridges. In other words a person using a 338 might be able to work with a 10-12" diameter ultimate ethical target while using a 270/7m might limit one to a 8-10" diameter target. In reality, of course, those round diameters are sprawling amoeba vital zones. An accurate rifleman that keeps his shots to where he will hit the appropriate target will regularly take elk. The 338 will have a bigger 'footprint' and will allow a few more ethical shots, or stated the other way, will recover more elk when a twig intervenes or an elk steps at the break of the trigger. These things happen, and yes a larger calibre helps. A person should set a limit on the range at which they can no longer hit within the pre-determined pie. For a 243 that pie should be kept pretty small, maybe six inches, maybe 4 inches if windy. Think of the range of the rifle as an extended cone that reaches out to where the person's shots reach the appropriate diameter. I would rank the optimum diameter sizes of various calibre slightly differently. For elk, the 416 with a reasonably high BC bullet might use the largest optimum diameter, dropping down through 375, 338, 300, 7m, to 243 and a noticeably smaller optimum diameter target. They will all kill elk ethically with a good bullet when used within the shooter's limits. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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"If you desire to use a 270 WCF for elk I'm fine with that as long as you use a bullet appropriate for elk. If it helps, I believe a 6.5x55 with a proper bullet is an ethical cartridge to use on elk." Scandinavian bullets in 6,5 are constructed for moose and they work fine, i dont know if they can kill a bodyarmored elk. Have a nice hunt! I dont find ass shots or backshots ethical what ever caliber you use. | |||
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This true - shooting thru brush or branches is asking for a miss or wounded game, no matter what size caliber or bullet. | |||
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I'm thinking that this descending restriction might be good for training new hunters. Learning to wait for an optimum shot with a small calibre could be good training. Thus, learning to hunt with a 243 to 270 might instill good control and a focus on accuracy that will produce the right habits when and if the hunter ever graduates to heavier calibres. My son and I cut our hunting teeth on the 270 though both of us now consider the 338 or larger to be preferred for African plains game. We both still appreciate a relatively flat shooting round, though 2800fps is plenty for Africa. And for someone without the luxury of accumulated experience of passing up shots within multiple opportunities, they might want to start practicing with a 338 or larger for that once-in-a-lifetime deep timbre elk or skittish zebra. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I'm sorry to be so pedantic, but seeing a caliber described as ".7mm Rem Mag" really sets my teeth on edge. .7mm = .0276" caliber, hardly enough for the average house fly. | |||
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And yet, when sitting on the side of a mountain with a friend while hunting elk, Elmer said, off the record, "truth be told, the 270 is a d__n fine cartridge". It's in one of his books if I could only remember which. As with others who grew up reading Keith and O'Conner and being familiar with their ongoing feud I was more than a bit surprised to read that. I agree, I think the 270 is "a d__n fine cartridge". DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it | |||
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Elk country is also normally grizzly country. How many of you small bore guys feel comfortable trying to stop a charging grizzly at close range. Two hunters have been killed within the past 10 days by grizzlies. One was hunting moose the other sheep hunting. The moose hunter was accompanied by his guide. The only place I would elk hunt with anything smaller than an '06, 200 gr., is Arizona or New Mexico, neither of which reportedly have a grizzly population. If an animal is close behind the brush a heavy, large caliber bullet will get through with enough velocity and penetration to kill it even if it does hit sideways. Woods hunters have proven this many times. Tests conducted with dowel rods and paper targets don't prove anything. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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It's your hunt, you can hunt with a 243 if you want. They deer hunt with 223's down here, but just like small bore elk hunters they don't talk about the ones that get away. "Oh. I must have missed" velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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