Hello, I'm shopping for my first gun, and while waiting for my P.A.L. (I live in Canada) to get processed and returned to me, I'm trying to do some research. I plan on hunting mostly deer, with the occassional cow elk and moose draws; being a meat hunter, I would do almost exclusively head shots. The calibers I'm considering are 7mm-08 Rem. and 308 Win. The guns I'm looking at are the following: Savage Model 14, Savage Model 16, Savage Model 11, Rem. 700 SPS. I'm also open to other Remington 700s. Because I'm looking for something that won't have much recoil, I'd like to have something that's heavier rather than lighter. A long (22" or 24") barrel would also be nice, as I've heard this helps reduce muzzle blast, which can cause me to flinch. I'm a little suspicious of Remington's 700 line though, as I have heard that their newer guns aren't as good quality as their old ones. Is this true, or did somebody probably just get a lemon (which can and does happen with almost anything)?

Any comments and recommendations are very much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Davis Goertzen

I'd go for the Remington SPS in 7mm-08. 308 if you live in an out of the way place where ammo would be easier to find. I am going to set myself up for flames here, but I feel alot of the perceived bad quality is from the $2000 custom rifle crowd in my opinion. Remington cut corners on the finish and stock with the SPS line, so no, they don't look like hand made custom rifles. And every one may not have a match barrel. They will most likely shoot good enough for your head shots at reasonable ranges. For less than $500 I would not expect a walnut stocked beauty, but a good serviceable rifle that you will not be afraid to take out of the house.

For every "bad Remington quality" gripe, there are thousands of happy SPS shooters out there, me being one of them. If they were that bad, they wouldn't sell any.

Ok, flame away.

The 7mm08 is a great caliber for what you want ot hunt and very accurate. The 308 is also very good but the recoil is a little less with the 7mm08 which is my favorite caliber. I can shoot 50 rounds without a sore shoulder. The new Rems shoot just as good as the older ones. The Rem SPS is a a good budget rifle and the savage is also good and they shoot well also. The Rem action will be smoother.
Good Luck with your choices.

I would probably go with a Ruger Model 77 in either 243, 7mm-08, or 260 Rem. Just ordered a new Ruger77 in 350RM this week. It is just my opinion that the Model 77 gives alot of bang for the buck.

used ruger in 30-06

For a first gun hunter I would have to recommend the Tikka in T3 Hunter or T3 Lite - depends if you like wood or synthetic.

1. The barrels usually shoot accurately.

2. Has a smooth action.

3. Has a decent trigger pull that will help you shoot accurately.

They are available in the calibers you have mentioned and others such as 30-06. I would recommend the 30-06. The T3 Lite in 30-06 shooting 180 grain bullets has less perceived recoil than any of my .270s shooting a 140 grain.

Perceived recoil has a lot more to do with a good recoil pad and some range practice than with which caliber you choose.

If you are recoil sensitive - with whichever rifle you choose I would start practicing starting with the lightest bullet weights you can get and work your way up from there. That way there is much less chance of developing a flinch. Also, I've noticed a lot of beginners flinch not from the recoil, but in anticipation of the muzzle blast.

When you are at the range or practicing a good pair of shooting glasses and some ear plugs with some ear muffs on top will go a long way to keeping away the "flinches".

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
used ruger in 30-06

Second. That or a used Remmie.

Buy used from a good dealer with confidence. You can figure that most used high power rifles haven't been shot nearly enough to wear out the barrel. Most hunters shoot just a couple times a year. Most of the used long rifles I see in pawn shops in my area are someone's used deer rifle that was shot and cleaned once a year until the owner got hard up for cash and pawned his rifle. There a plenty of good deals on used scoped rifles out there if you look around hard enough.

the Savage will be:

A. a lot less $$$
B. a lot more accurate with the accu-trigger.

The 14 and 114 Classics are very nice looking rifles.

Rich
DRSS

Can you get CZ's in Canada?
If not, I would personally go with the Remington.

I think CZ's are a very good rifle for the money right out of the box.
They have longer barrels.
They are a little heavier.
I love the square bridge design.
They make an American with no sights.
A Lux model with open sights.
Pick you preference and go.

It's blasphemous to say, but if I could only own one rifle in a standard caliber. The 30-06 would be my choice.

It would most likely be a CZ. I have had nothing but good luck with the ones I have owned. They have all shot extremely well.

ah head shots only? in my limted experience of shooting sheep and calves on our farm with a 22LR, even shot the odd cow with one. oh and i only shoot calves and cows with things like broken legs that aint gonna heal i dont shoot the good ones, thatd be plain stupid, i only shoot dog tucker sheep. anyway it can sometimes be difficult and you only putting shots through the skull for no gain, sure a 308 is different but make sure if you are doing it you make a cross between the eyes and ears, aim in the middle of that, and try to have the bullet exit where the spinalcord comes out of the back of the head and runsdown the neck.

personally im a little scared to shoot a deer in the head because if i stuffed it up, it would cause unneccersary suffering to the animal, stressing the meat out and making it tough. and you could have a huge job on your hands tracking it down. but if you do it succesfully it makes the job alot easier and you know exactly where the animal is.


what sort of ranges are you thinking of shooting them?

quote:

Originally posted by HondoLane:
I would probably go with a Ruger Model 77 in either 243, 7mm-08, or 260 Rem. Just ordered a new Ruger77 in 350RM this week. It is just my opinion that the Model 77 gives alot of bang for the buck.

243 for Canadian Moose? A little too light for me.

I would go with a CZ 308 or 30-06. IMO the most accurate rifle out of the box and the price is right, come with rings as well.

Davis,

In my opinion you should opt for the Remmy SPS (or better still the SPS SS). If aesthetics are important to you they are a much sleeker looking bit of kit than the Savage. I'm very happy with my SPS SS in 7 Rem Mag. I have no experience of 7-08 so would tend to push you towards the .308 which I have shot a lot although I suspect you won't be able to tell much difference between the two calibres.

At risk of confusing the issue another option that hasn't been picked up on yet is a Howa. I have just taken delivery of a stainless action in .270. Admittedly I haven't shot it yet as I'm waiting on the delivery of a stock but in my opinion the perceived quality is a match for my Sakos at about half the price.

Kind regards,

Tim

I have two "Pawn Shop" rifles that I am just really happy with. They are both Savage model 110's and are a 1958 30-06 and a 1960 .270. They have 24" barrels, a black walnut stock, and weigh about 6 1/2 pounds. I put offset Weaver rings on each of them and a 3-9 steel weaver scope. ( the 9 gets used at the range )
I paid $175 for the 30-06 and $225 for the .270. The walnut stock is more slender than current production and is well checkered. They really feel good. At the range, I get right at 2" groups at 200 yards using the speer 130 spitzer in the .270 and 150 Hornady's in the '06. I have done little range work with them since I only use a .257 Roberts for deer and I seem doomed to never draw an Antelope tag. If I were deer hunting in bear country, I'd take the 30-06 ( or my Whelen).
The trigger on each is just fine. If I were going after a deer and cow elk with one of them, I'd use the .270 with the 130 grain bullet and not worry a bit about whether it was going to do the job. A .270 recoil is there, but not bad. Up until 1965, those rifles won't switch-barrel easily, by the way.
If you want a 7-08, there's the Stevens model 200 for $289 or so. The Stevens uses the older savage trigger and I can't see that the accu-trigger is worth the money. I believe that a 7-08 will have a bit less recoil than a .270, but it'll probably have a 22" barrel and I like the noise as far away as possible.
I like a wood stock, not plastic.
I'm sure that you can find a two old Savages for the cost of one new one. You do have Pawn shops in Canada, right ?

Missed that part about Moose Guess I should drink some coffee and wake up before posting. In this case I amend my statement and follow Boomstick. I will stick with my choice of rifle and bump it to the good ole' 30-06. Sorry about that.

Get a Savage with an accu-trigger in .308 Winchester. Shoot the moose with a good bullet like a Barnes TSX. .30-06 would be my second choice.

It's tough beating someting like a 7-08, 260 Rem, or a 308. Flip a coin. Savages have a reputation as being as accurate as any production rifle going, with the accu-trigger, and they are less expensive too. I don't own one, but as a starter, I'd buy one in a heart beat.
I know you have the ideal of all head shots, but reality may be different. Study anatomy and be prepared for any shot that may present itself.
Will you be reloading for your new rifle?

Don

For some reason nobody suggests Winchester? Keep your eyes open in stores and pawnshops for a Winchester, remington, savage, Ruger etc. in 30/06 or .308 and you'll have all the right things going for you. If Moose are on the menu I would opt for the .30 calibers and nothing less, you may need to body shoot one if a head shot goes bad and you knock a jaw off or something and have to follow up with a body shot. 7mm-08 would be fine I'm sure just not my first choice and please stay away from the smaller ones like .260 and .243's.
Spend good money on a Leupold scope in good solid rings and you'll have a rifle for life. CZ and Tikka make good rifles as well but I never see them as used rifles around here and don't find deals on them anywhere like the others mentioned. You may keep your eyes open for a Howa or Weatherby Vanguard as well.
Just remember buy a decent scope, a great rifle will become quite mediocre with a cheap scope on it, whereas an okay rifle can really be all that it can be with a good scope on it.
Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by Davis Goertzen:
Hello, I'm shopping for my first gun, and while waiting for my P.A.L. (I live in Canada) to get processed and returned to me, I'm trying to do some research. I plan on hunting mostly deer, with the occassional cow elk and moose draws; being a meat hunter, I would do almost exclusively head shots. The calibers I'm considering are 7mm-08 Rem. and 308 Win. The guns I'm looking at are the following: Savage Model 14, Savage Model 16, Savage Model 11, Rem. 700 SPS. I'm also open to other Remington 700s. Because I'm looking for something that won't have much recoil, I'd like to have something that's heavier rather than lighter. A long (22" or 24") barrel would also be nice, as I've heard this helps reduce muzzle blast, which can cause me to flinch. I'm a little suspicious of Remington's 700 line though, as I have heard that their newer guns aren't as good quality as their old ones. Is this true, or did somebody probably just get a lemon (which can and does happen with almost anything)?

Any comments and recommendations are very much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Davis Goertzen

You can't go wrong with the 7mm-08 for what you are intending to use it for. I've bought three of them so far, all the same model. I have one myself and my son and daughter each have one. It's the Savage Sierra model, 20" barrel and about six and a half pounds. It's very accurate out of the box, tough as nails and very easy to carry all day. Recoil and muzzle blast are non issues with this calibre and model. I started off with Remingtons years ago and about fifteen years ago bought my first Savage and now most of my rifles are Savage. I haven't had a bad one yet.

You say this is your first rifle but don't say if you have hunted before with maybe a borrowed rifle. So I am going with the attitude you have limited shooting and hunting experiance. If I am wrong I am sorry.

That said I would suggest you forget the head shot. Putting a bullet through the heart, lungs will not ruin enough meat to worry about. If you are willing to wait for a perfect head shot you can wait for a perfect broadside heart, lung shot.

As for gun, unless you are set on a new one I would look for a nice used rifle. The Remington 700 SPS is a nice rifle if you like the plastic stock. CZ rifles are very nice and the Savage rifles shoot well. I actually like Winchesters. I would suggest you look for a used rifle you like or get the new rifle you like. Don't forget quality optics.

As for caliber I won't knock the 7mm-08 but I would not go smaller. Personally I would go with a 30-06 with a quality recoil pad installed due to the chance of hunting moose. Unless you have medical problems I can't see a reason you could not handle a 30-06.

Just my 2 cents and worth what you paid for it.

I would suggest the remington SPS for a couple of reasons. You said you are recoil shy and want a rifle with a little weight to it. The sps has a 24 inch barrel, an limbsaver recoil pad and are usually accurate. As a matter of fact with a little shopping around they are priced real close to the savage line. Triggers are adjustable too. I like ruger too but there is a little more work involved with a ruger. Non-adjustable trigger and a hockey puck for a recoil pad. They also are usually accurate though. The savage line is usually accurate and also have the accutrigger. They also have that hockey puck type recoil pad. I just think for the money remington's are the best deal. Good luck which ever way ya go!

I would go to a well stocked gun store and pick the rifle you like the best.

I too would suggest you think twice about head shots.
If you are a little off you just might blow off their bottom jaw. Then they run off and die a less than honorable death.

I was on a deer lease once where a couple of guys weere "big" on head shots.

After loosing several deer they changed their ways.

I went to satisfy my curiosity about this question. I'd pick the SPS. It felt better. As for accuracy, I don't know!

About "headshots". If you can continualy pull them off, you should be in a pro competition somewhere. Seriously!!

For the money accuracy quality fit Savage Tikka , Remington in that order . Wet damp where you live or I should say hunt ?. Synthetic stock is the way to go with hunting in the dense woods is another real reason for that type of stock . SS is also a good bet .

7 MM Mag. 30/06 , .308 or 7-08 in that order .

7 MM Mag is extremely versatile 100 - 180 grain projectiles . Power to spare for what ever your after !. Heavier the gun the less felt recoil . The catch is lugging it on a long haul .
Personally I shoot one shot most times . So I go light and suffer the 1/10 Sec recoil , but smile on the 10 mile journey !, And 30/06 would be my next choice for a single gun battery !.

Another mans opinion . ...

WOW guys, thanks for all the input! Okay, I'll try to answer a few questions here.

Yes, we have pawn shops in Canada. I live in the country (Northeastern BC, to be exact), but in a town 1/2 hr. away there are two of them, as well as a modest gun store.

I don't handload personally, but my older brother, who lives in above-mentioned town, does for his 30-06 and 6.5 by 55 Swede. I'm sure I could buy materials and get him to handload for me.

I don't think the gun store carries CZ, but there is a mail-order company out of Edmonton and Calgary that does, so that might be an option. The store carries Remington, Savage, Tikka, Browning, and I'm not sure what all else; that's partly why I'm considering those.

Someone quoted me as saying I am recoil shy. I should clarify that by saying that I am (or have the potential to be) MUZZLE-BLAST shy. I have put 3 shots through a Rem. 308 with 150 gr. bullets, and I'm sure I could handle it no problem. On this point, a saleman I talked to said Savage's stock design makes you feel every pound of kick coming at you, and Tikka is doing such a great job of light guns that they kick good too; but Remington is better at dampening recoil in their stocks.

About the head-shots only thing, I was thinking that if I do enough target practice, I should be able to put the bullet where I want pretty much all the time. Maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe here would also be a good place to explain that the mule deer (mostly my targets) up here have just about reached plague proportions. Moreover, I would be participating in doe draws, and mulies up here (the does in particular) are curious and VERY DUMB. It's no longer about hunting them, it's about shooting; I would rarely have to shoot beyond 150 yds, I think.

As for a scope, my Dad, brothers, and sister-in-law all shoot, and I don't think there is a scope in all five center-fire guns they have that is not Leupold. I'm planning on a VX-II 3-9/40, myself.

The above-mentioned gun store has a returned Remington 700 SPS synthetic stock/blued barrel with a detachable clip and a Bushnell Legend Scope, which I would replace with the Leupold. Caliber is 7mm-08, barrel length is 24", weight is (according to a catalogue) between 7 1/4 and 7 5/8 lbs. Price is $500 Canadian.

Again thanks for all the input guys.

Davis Goertzen

I wouldn't take a Remington or Savage bolt rifle as a gift. I would politely decline. They are cheap and ugly and besides that ugly and cheap.

On the other hand, for affordable and beautiful, you can pick up a nice classic CRF Model 70 Winchester Featherweight NIB for around US$6-800 (I just did from a fellow AR member).

With one of those classic beauties, you will be well and unashamedly armed anywhere in the game fields of the world.

To tell the truth any of the rifles mentioned will work fine. I would be real suspicious of a "returned" rifle however.

As far as caliber I think you answered your question in you last post when you mentioned a friend that reloads. The 30-06 or the 6.5x55 would be ideal for what you want. AND your buddy has a good working knowledge of reloading for them.

If I were you I would get the Savage 114 in 30-06 and install a good recoil pad and be happy for the rest of my life hunting everything you mentioned.

quote:

Originally posted by ElCaballero:
To tell the truth any of the rifles mentioned will work fine. I would be real suspicious of a "returned" rifle however.

As far as caliber I think you answered your question in you last post when you mentioned a friend that reloads. The 30-06 or the 6.5x55 would be ideal for what you want. AND your buddy has a good working knowledge of reloading for them.

If I were you I would get the Savage 114 in 30-06 and install a good recoil pad and be happy for the rest of my life hunting everything you mentioned.

+1

Don

A M700 is hard to beat for accuracy and dependability.

quote:

being a meat hunter, I would do almost exclusively head shots.

That would be one of the biggest mistakes you'll ever make as a big game hunter. Head shots are much less effective than vital shots. I can't tell you all of the stories I've heard about so called hunters blowing the jaws off of deer. I helped a guy track a deer for several hundred yards several years back, he said he head shot it with his 270 Weatherby Mag, we never found the deer.

The most advanced rifle shooters in the world would often lose game if they tried head shots. Far too many variables to try to shoot game in the head.

Good Luck

Reloader

For almost two years now I've been a Savage Stevens advocate.Looking at things objectively, however, things (me) are changing.

The 12VBss-s shoots like a charm. The accutrigger hangs up or sticks about every fourth or fifth shot. One of my four Stevens Mod 200s does the same thing, with the old style trigger.

Two maybe three of the Stevens had feeding problems. The 22-250 was so unmanagable I cobbled up a single shot follower for it. Two of them when actuating the bolt allowed the cartridge to jump up so the rear end of the case was higher than the bolt and would jam. Intentionally rapidly ( really fast) slaming the bolt forward helped a lot. Slow? Forget it.

My .270 Stevens suffers dramaticly from bore fouling.

For shooting paper I guess these problems are livable. For dependable field rifles they do not measure up. I'm sure with a little work the situuations can be bettered but for someone to take the rfiles out of the box and be used reliably it's a crap shoot. roger

I have a Remington Classic in .308 Winchester with 24 inch barrel. With scope it weighs 8 pounds. It is very pleasant to shoot with low muzzle blast, just because it burns less powder for the same velocity as many larger capacity 30 caliber rounds. I have limited experience shooting the .30-06 in a bolt action, but have used it in a semi-auto some in rifle competition. I find the .308 Winchester a slightly more moderate recoiling, yet effective hunting round, including one bull elk with a premium bullet. In your situation, I'd get the best deal you can get on a "traditional" 22 inch barrel .308 Win and get a longer 24 inch replacement barrel later if you "need" the extra 50 fps velocity and have worn out your first barrel. If your friend will reload for you, get the dies for him and pick some accurate handloads to learn the shooting game. If components are restricted in some fashion in Canada, get a 6.5x55 or .30-06 and share costs with your friend, allowing more components for both of you if you both get the "limit" of powder for the same caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
For almost two years now I've been a Savage Stevens advocate.Looking at things objectively, however, things (me) are changing.

The 12VBss-s shoots like a charm. The accutrigger hangs up or sticks about every fourth or fifth shot. One of my four Stevens Mod 200s does the same thing, with the old style trigger.

Two maybe three of the Stevens had feeding problems. The 22-250 was so unmanagable I cobbled up a single shot follower for it. Two of them when actuating the bolt allowed the cartridge to jump up so the rear end of the case was higher than the bolt and would jam. Intentionally rapidly ( really fast) slaming the bolt forward helped a lot. Slow? Forget it.

My .270 Stevens suffers dramaticly from bore fouling.

For shooting paper I guess these problems are livable. For dependable field rifles they do not measure up. I'm sure with a little work the situuations can be bettered but for someone to take the rfiles out of the box and be used reliably it's a crap shoot. roger

This mirrors my experience with Savage!!!!!

I would go with the 30/06 or the swede for the reason you have someone that reloads those calibers,or if you had to have another caliber you could buy the componets and get him to reload them.Any brand you get is sort of a crap shoot as to how they shoot out of the box.Have had good ones and bad ones with different brands.
bartsche:Was surprized to hear the accru-trigger hangs up,I like the old triggers better than the accru but have a 10fp that I got when the accru came out in 223 and has hundreds of shots through it,got a 12 varmit last year and its just now getting broken in witha few hundred shots,3 savage muzzleloaders with the old triggers,put over 1500 shots through 2 of them in one year,and a 17 hmr and have yet to have a trigger hang or stick.Think I would call savage and see whats the problem.Joe DeGrande is the fellow to talk too,you can e-mail him to at jdegrande@savagearms.com.

About the gun, I asked my brother (the one who reloads; referred to earlier) to take a look at it and he said it looked like it hadn't been shot much at all. He recommended that I get it; in fact, he was the one who suggested 7mm-08 as a good starting caliber for me. I also called the store, and learned there that the previous owner had been going down South for some reason, and felt the need for a little extra money; hence, he returned the gun. So that's why it was returned.

Anyhow, I have put a down payment on it (because I don't have my P.A.L. yet, I can't buy either it or ammunition). The store carries a few kinds of 7mm-08 ammo, so I intend to try out a few of those and see if I can find something the gun will shoot well; if not, I'll see with my brother about getting some dies, brass, bullets, and other components.

In the "Canadian Hunting" section of AR, there is a thread by "7mm-08" entitled "Elk Caliber," in which he states that he has gotten elk with this caliber, so I'm thinking that if I practice enough, 7mm-08 should be enough for a while, anyway.

Thanks for all the help.

Davis Goertzen

I think the early tang safety Rugers are a great gun bargain and one of the best designed BA rifles aver made. As for caliber, the 7-08 is a fine caliber that will do anything you'll ever need to do. My wife (5'3" 110#) has taken everything from hogs in S. FL, to Moose in AK with hers. http://hometown.aol.com/brayhaven/myhomepage/huntfish.html Very accurate, light recoil and plenty of power.

As to head shooting big game, there are conflicting opinions as you may have seen. I shot about every deer in the head for many years (probably well over 100). It was my opinion that it stops all brain activity & they never know what hit them. No gamey taste etc, like one that runs with a bullet through the lungs and pumps the adrenalin into the bloodstream. That said, most of those were under 100 yards from a stand with a good solid rest & I could hit a quarter every time with those guns, under those conditions.
I'd never try a head shot under most situations. Best, IMO, for most is a low shoulder shot (@ 2/3 down from wither), which normally anchors them & kills pretty fast.