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| one of us |
There was a real reason for the belt in the beginning, cartridges in the old days were made smaller than chambers so that dirty, hot ammo could be safely fired. In the days of cordite this was a real issue. As to taking up magazine space, really? Not enough to add another round in the magazine. If the belt which only adds .018 to the diameter of the case body bothers you so much you might try therapy. Leftists are intellectually vacant, but there is no greater pleasure than tormenting the irrational. | |||
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| one of us |
Actually on my old .338 winmag the stupid and unnecessary belts were enough to keep a fourth round out of the magazine. Perhaps it is you that needs the therapy. Just sayin'... Tech All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke) | |||
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One of Us |
All though 3 rounds instead of 4 is an interesting quandary I don’t see it as a real big deal. But what would I know, most all of my big game hunting has been with a bow and arrow or a single shot rifle.  | |||
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Yeah, hearing someone belt out 3 or four shots in a hurry almost always means some pretty poor shooting is happening. Leftists are intellectually vacant, but there is no greater pleasure than tormenting the irrational. | |||
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| one of us |
 Shoot until they drop. Tech All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke) | |||
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Last time I heard my shooting buddy loose off four in a row it meant a lot of sweat & help from a quad bike, four red hinds down, last time he heard three in a row, I was dropping foxes further to his right on the same farm, good job no-one sent for a rescue party!  | |||
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| One of Us |
Bye the way, three in the magazine & one up the tube is a good plan when starting to approach the group | |||
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Shoot til they drop, if a game animal is standing around letting you take multiple shots at it and you are sure of your first hit then why waste the meat, gunpowder and projectiles? Magazine capacity has never been an issue for me. I have seldom even had to shoot twice at a game animal. Don't pull the trigger if your first shot isn't going to be a good one. Leftists are intellectually vacant, but there is no greater pleasure than tormenting the irrational. | |||
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Good advice. However I have seen animals hit well go down like lightning, and I have seen animals take good hits and keeping on trucking. I have seen animals hit well, go over a ridge and get taken by other hunters. One of the wierdest was a cow elk take 5 shots walking around in circles and then finally tip over. I saw a deer do a back flip after a heart shot by a bow. A friend of mine told me he saw a deer take an arrow to the heart, look up likes what's going on then bend over and start eating again for about 20 seconds before tipping over stone dead. If you hunt long enough you will see similar events, or your just plain lucky. Perhaps you always shoot them between the eyes. I always assume the first shot went home, and shoot until the deal is sealed. You may like tracking, and possibly losing your animals I don't know.  I can't believe that you haven't called me on case capacity with the wsms. Afterall you only get 3 in magazine on those as well. What irks me is a belt keeping me from getting the cartridge count that I'm supposed to be getting, because the belt looks cool. Also I did and do advise people that don't reload and want a 7mm to get the remmag. The other 7mms didn't catch on because the remmag was already well estabished, the 270 wsm came well ahead of the 7mm wsm, the 270 wsm is every bit the equal of the 7mm remmag, people chose the wsm over the saum, and the 7mm and all metric calibers just don't do it for most American hunters. Edited to add: I forgot to mention one that a friend of mine told me about. It seems that at last light my friend shot a buck deer that was looking right at him through the skull. That deer ran off and they couldn't find it in the dark. They found it the next day over 300 yards from where it was shot, with the arrow still in its skull. Tech All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke) | |||
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Yup the belts do look cool. And I have been hunting since 1968. I have seen animals take off running when well hit but they seldom go far. The hurried and poor shooting that follows the first round at a running elk usually misses or hits poorly. Then again if your rate of fire is such that you need more than 4 rounds in your rifle and you don't have time to drop one in the chamber between Hail Mary's then somewhere in there it will come to you, "should spend more time at range". Leftists are intellectually vacant, but there is no greater pleasure than tormenting the irrational. | |||
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"They seldom go far". This my experience as well; however sometimes they do. Sometimes you take out 1 lung, sometimes you take out one shoulder, sometimes you hit the area beween the lungs and the spine, and sometimes their will to live allows them to do things you wouldn't expect. My brother got his 6 point Bull last year with my old .338 winmag. It took 3 shots. First at approximately 75 yards, second at approximately 150, and the third at what he guesses over 300. All hits, and in the chest. I am checking out of this thread, but I bow to your pure awsomeness with a rifle.  Tech All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke) | |||
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Tech does have some interesting views of the world.  | |||
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If this is a 7MM thread then what is all this reference to the 338? In fact you should get a 7MM Remington magnum and then all your elk will go down quickly. The longest I ever had to track an elk was one I hit thru the back of the lungs at 450 yards using a 338. No bullet expansion. Second longest was a shoulder hit elk using a 30-06, 50 yards. Leftists are intellectually vacant, but there is no greater pleasure than tormenting the irrational. | |||
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Seems like we in the UK being crowded & all, seem to get more chances at multiple target groups too!  | |||
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Guys, I have just picked up a Kimber 8400 in 7mm WSM, brand new and unfired. True, I could have bought a .270 or .280, however I like the Kimbers for their light weight and compact size. I also happen to think that the 7mm WSM is one of the best rounds for New Zealand hunting, especially with the 116gr GS Custom. IMHO, the intention of the WSM's were not so that a guy who owned a 300 Win Mag or 7mm Rem Mag would suddenly trade his rifle in on one of the WSM's. Rather I think they were marketed to guys like myself looking for a brand new rifle and who wanted something more compact and lighter than a traditional long action rifle, but looking to get close ballistically to those traditional magnum rounds. If I wanted to push the velocity envelope faster, I would have settled for a 300 Weatherby, 7mm RUM or maybe even the 7mm Practical which a guy down here in NZ developed and has had alot of success with (modified 7mm/300 Win Mag). Regards, Michael. She was only the Fish Mongers daughter. But she lay on the slab and said 'fillet' | |||
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Steve- You may get more shots because the game in Britain is private property, and the land owner also owns the game. In that instance, if he lets you hunt his land, then he can let you hunt as many or as few animals as he wants....which I uncerstand is often NONE if you don't pay him quite handsomely for the privilege and are not a close friend or relative. In North America the game belongs to the people at large, not the land owner. And much of the land is also public land, outside of the densly populated areas east of the Mississippi or in California. And even in those densly peopled states, there are fairly large amounts of public land and animals in most of them. By far most of Canada is also publicly owned land where the game animals belong to the public also...a higher percentage than the U.S., as a matter of actual mathematic percentages. So, in both countries (Canada and the U.S.) the number of animals which can be shot by any one individual is carefully controlled each year, so the animals survive or even increase as species while most all would-be hunters at least get the opportunity to roam the public woods and fields and try their luck and skills at getting their fair share of the animals. Your system works well for the privileged few. This system works well for the common man. So far, a person can still live in whichever country he prefers and use the system it has as best he can. That's one of the principal reasons I choose to live here. Best wishes, AC. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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And that just goes to show you why american corporate ineptitude is sinking our economy. If Winchester had more "gun people" instead of college educated yes men in their R&D department they would have known this before hand & not had to delay the launch of the 7mm WSM. In my mind this was an inexcusable screw-up & anyone connected to it should have been fired. Why they ever made a 270 WSM is beyond me as the 7mm WSM will do anything the 270 WSM will do W/many more bullet choices available. Another example of American corporate hype & marketing getting in the way of sound engineering logic. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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I load for both the 7WSM and the 7RM. Both are accurate and lethal on game. I like the WSM a little more than the RM because of the short fat case. I believe there are subtle efficiencies inherent in the WSM design. That said, I find most of the objections to almost every subject posted are made made by people who have nothing better to do than post negative comments. Take any of the WSM's to the range and see what great rounds they are. In politics as in theology! "The heart of the wise inclines to the right, But the heart of the fool to the left." Ecclesiastes 10:2 | |||
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I never owned a 270Win or a 7mmRM so I bought Win70's in the 270WSM and the 7mmWSM. Both are extremely accurate with multiple loads. I liked the performance so good that I sold my 300WM and bought a 300WSM. I had one load that my 300WM would shoot very well, but my 300WSM will shoot well with several bullet weights and powders. I have never had a feed problem and I now have 5 rifles in the WSM calibers. | |||
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other than the 7rem -- the 7mm has never been a core, preferred caliber. the 280/7x64 is superior, in every way, to the 270, and yet those two, combined, unlikely sell 1/2 of 1% as much as the 270 ... and the 7x64 redates the 270 by nearly 20 years why buy one or the other? its called choice fellas.. buying one doesn't exactly displace a sale for the other... and does NOTHING to "reduce" the already made rifles. someone with a strong dislike of the new can be called a luddite ... don't like someone else's choice? you don't drive their car, live in their choice, or are married to their spouse .. in other words, who cares.. buy what you like, and give everyone else the same choices... #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Well yes and no-The WSM is a better designed case, no doubt about it. Shorter actions are stiffer and lend themselves to better accuracy potential. On the other hand, lack of ammo in far out places could be a problem for non-handloaders, and if the cartridge is doomed to obsolescence brass will be hard to get(although one can re-size 300 and 270 brass) With this said, if you have a neewbie getting into hunting, and he goes out and buys a 300WSM how could that be a bad first rifle? I know, i know this is about the 7mmWSM but as a whole, the WSM's are not a bad choice at all for a one gun, do it all, battery. All emotions aside, all one needs is three rifles max for 99% of the game in the world, but what fun would that be  No i do not own a WSM, but i do own a 7mm SAUM, lets see, a synthetic/stainless rifle that duplicates the much adored 280AI in a short action, that costs under 600 dollars, whats not to love??? I have enough brass for a life time and if i neede more Norma now makes their excellent brass in 300 SAUM, im set. I picked up several dusty boxes of Rem 150gr core-lokt factory loads for 24 bucks a box  Yes there are benefits to buying a dying cartridge. Then again my other favorite is the .358 win, im just a sucker for these useless obsolete cartridges  | |||
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I have owned and shot extensively all the 7mm chamberings. As for me and the rifles I have shot, I can get my .270 WSM's to out perform all of them up to but not including the 7mm STW with bullets topping out at 150 grains. If I want to shoot a larger bullet I will go with my STW. The only chamberings the .270 WSM cannot top for me is the .270 Wby and 7mm STW. I realize the question was about the 7mm WSM and 7mm Rem, but someone threw the .270 WSM under the bus and that should never happen. If you shoot and load for it, you will see for yourself. Good shooting. phurley | |||
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http://bulletin.accurateshoote...ysis/comment-page-1/ Rikky says: July 4, 2011 at 4:46 pm "As a long time 7mm user I fail to understand why we bother with 30 cal, apart from habit. The 7mm is head and shoulders above the 30 cal in performance and has none of those annoying habits the 6.5 has at long distance. “Market forces” (whatever that really means) seem to keep the 30 cal afloat. I know when I started in 7mm the supply of projectiles was impossible and now it is much better. I hope in 5 years time we will see more choice of bullet weights in this caliber." Warrior | |||
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| One of Us |
This is such an odd quote i dont know where to even begin.7mm will never be "head and shoulders" above 30 cal for the mere fact that 30 cal is larger and there are more 30cal bullets than 7mm maybe not much more but its hard to find any caliber that has been more extensively developed than the 30's. What annoying habits does the 6.5's have at long distance, and which 6.5's ???? Both of these are just calibers and not cartridges, and if you are talking extreme long range just remember no 7mm is used for any military's snipers platform | |||
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Bryan Litz, Ballistician for Berger Bullets, is punting the same view on the 7 mm using a 180 gr VLD bullet. I was surprised myself to see his view, and that is why I tought of posting it to solicit some views. I can't say which 7 mm is his darling, but it may just be the 280 Rem (7mm Rem Express) or the Improved version of the 280 Rem. Warrior | |||
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Indeed why the obsession W/.30 caliber? IMO it is a "tweener", not as capable @ distance as the 6.5 & 7mm bores and really more than needed for deer sized game, not as capable @ medium range for larger game as the 8mm. Another anomoly pertaining tp the "30" syndrom, Americans seem to prefer a .030"ish gap in caliber as in .243/.277/.308/.338.
My Sierra bullet chart from a few years back had more bullet choices for 7mm than .308.
I was hoping that W/the introduction of the 8mm WSM (lets call it what it truely is) the same would hold true W/8mm bullet choices, but alas, the ilogical American aversion to everything "metric" seems to hindering the poularity of this offering. I would love to see Hornady come out W/a 200gr Interbond, but they have no plans to do so. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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| Moderator |
why 30? 30-30 30-40 30-03 30-06 308 while the 30-30 was REALLY a service round, it was used, the rest are all US serivce rounds.. #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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How does the shorty do with a 175gr bullet?? Or even a 160?? Not too well, I would surmise. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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| Moderator |
this is actually an interesting question - here's why .. bullets, with a crimping groove (cannalure) are measured from the nose BACK, and then fit into a max OAL setting let's take the WSM vs the Remmag, as an example. the WSM case is 2.1" long, with a max OAL of 2.86 - leaving a nose to groove length of .750 the remmag case is 2.5, max oal of 3.290 (spec) leaving a .79 length, or about .040 longer relative wsm loads with 175speer (2850ish) remmag with same, about 2950ish those are pretty hot loads for either, btw... so, .4 shorter oal means 100fps slower, with heavist bullets... though "not so well" is a bit subject to one's choice... my 7x64 launches 163gr hornady at 2800 FACTORY loads.. and is suitable for everything short of dangerous game, as is the 7x57 at 2400 with teh same weight bullet... so, while the finite comarisson is clear that the 7remmag can go faster with a very long bullet.. the real question is, does it make a difference... about 200fpe diffence (22mag) at the muzzle.. at 500 yards? less than an inch of drop, if i did the math correctly. not so well, or well enough? heck, 100fps is within range of barrel differences in a round at nearly 3000 fps .. basically, interchangable. jeffe #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I can tell you don't hunt Elk. Why, because tracking a wounded Elk is not fun. | |||
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There are only a few advantages for the 7mm WSM. It is newer. You can fit it in a shorter action. And the only one I have shot seemed to load easier than the 7mm RemMag. You can add "it doesn't have a belt". Not much. | |||
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One of Us |
From a performance point of view I dont think there is enough difference to even notice under normal "in the field" situations. That being said, personally, and quite frankly I think they screwed up AGAIN with the short fat Magnum design. The things they got right IMO was the elimination of the usless belt and the case capacity, but I dont CARE about the short-n-fat thing for a hunting rifle. In fact from a huntng perspective I see the lower magazine capacity as a deterent. Give me something more like the 8X68 Magnum case design in an American made rifle and then I might actualy find it worth trying one. | |||
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It seems that the biggest advantage is accuracy. Check out other threads and links on AR and it will show that the 7mm WSM is a regular benchrest winner. I hunt to live and live to hunt! | |||
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I don't know anything about the shortys but my example of one is a 700 in 7RM and if it were any more accurate, I'd probably pee down my pant's leg when I shot it.  Aim for the exit hole | |||
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What barrel lengths are they making these 7mm WSM's in?  | |||
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| One of Us |
The Longterm Incumbent is the Hardest to Beat... The case for the 7 WSM or the 7 SAUM is not compelling enough for the Herd to Follow... Nor was it for the 7 STW ... If the Major Firms stop making the 7 Rem. Mag then a case for change will be Buyable.... | |||
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**************** NRA Life Benefactor Member | |||
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By god man. The animals can sence that change! You switch to a new unknown caliber (at least to the animals) and they'll refuse to recognise the shot and therefore run and hide. Hit him with a .987654321 whatmaboomerrocketboolit and he'll just shrug it off and go walkabout. But my friend all is not lost, if you ask this board and follow the high whiners, some 100 year old cartridge will reveal it's "pretty" head and tell you what!!! | |||
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the buying public has already decided, all 3 saum's were rejected, as was the 7wsm (the 300 wsm has easily survived and the 270 wsm has a following as well). as for similarities between the 7wsm and the 7remmag, with mid range and lighter bullets, what one will do the other will also do. as for heavier bullets, the 7remmag has it all over the 7wsm. sales (or lack thereof) of both rifles and ammo doesn't means the chambering wasn't "good", it merely means the buying public didn't want what was offered. as we know, public rejection has been the bain of numerous failed cartridges, and the saum/wsm won't be the last. | |||
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He is a target shooter and so the highest possible BC and accuracy at long range is the goal. His articles explain that to get the same BC from a 180gr 7mm you would need to be shooting something like 210gr+ from a .308. To remain supersonic at 1000yds+ this therefore requires a very big case in a .30 cal which burns more powder and creates more recoil fatigue in a long firing sequence. Hence the 7mm advantage. The most popular choice seems to be a 7-.300 WSM or 7 SAUM | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles 7mm WSM compared to 7mm Rem Mag
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