Had a chance to run out to the range yesterday to do a little testing with my CZ 550 9,3.

The first load that I tried was a Norma case, Winchester large rifle primer, 57.5 grains of Varget and a 286 grain Wooodleigh RN. After a fowling shoot, I got the following results:

2357
2352
2357
2366

for an average of 2358 fps.

The next load was the same Norma case, Winchester large rifle primer, 56 grains of Varget and a 300 Grain Swift A-Frame. I got the following results:

2265
2253
2271
2262
2253

for an average of 2260 fps.

I haven't shot either load for accuracy but I will and then post the results.

By the way, temperature was about 45 degrees.

Dave

quote:

2265
2253
2271
2262
2253

for an average of 2360 fps.

Suppose you mean average of 2260 fps!

Nominal velocities should be:

286 gr. 2430 fps

300 gr. 2370 fps

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Nominal velocities should be:

286 gr. 2430 fps

300 gr. 2370 fps

I don't really understand what a "nominal" velocity is supposed to mean. Can you explain this for those of us that are ballistically illiterate.

I think Will means is what 9.3x62 owners wish their rifles did as normal vel's.

For what it's worth. Loadtech would forcast velocities about 75fps higher in both cases. Pressure in the 54-55,000 range.

My average velocity with 286grn Woodleigh bullets, RWS cases, Fed large rifle primers and 55.5grns of AR2206 is 2340fps.
And with 300grn Swift A Frames and 54.5grns of AR2206 is 2305fps.
Not to far of your velocity's.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Sullivan:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Nominal velocities should be:

286 gr. 2430 fps

300 gr. 2370 fps

I don't really understand what a "nominal" velocity is supposed to mean. Can you explain this for those of us that are ballistically illiterate.

FWIW:

Nominal I suppose is what one would expect from factory loads in a normal length (24") barrel. One needs a guidepost to go by, and I think A-Square lists the "nominal" velocity as 2430 fps for the 286 gr. bullet.

If one asumes that this is correct or a near maximum but safe velocity, then the muzzle energy of the bullet is about 3750 ft-lbs.

Then assuming the powder charge or energy that can be stuffed into the case is the same, or nearly so, for any weight bullet, then the velocity for a 300 gr. bullet can be calculated for the same muzzle energy. Hence, 2370 fps.

Then, nominal velocities are:

270 gr. 2500 fps
286 gr. 2430 fps
300 gr. 2370 fps
320 gr. 2300 fps

I have got all these velocities without any apparent signs of high pressure. Seems there is little point in having sub-velocity loads, except for practice rounds.

Again, FWIW!

P.S.

There is a fellow that loads 550 gr. bullets in his Lott but at a much lower velocity than could be attained. He swears by the 550 gr. bullet. He loads the 500 gr. bullet to about the max., 2300 fps, but goes too slow with the 550 gr. bullet, which seems to defeat the benefit of a heavier bullet. Whatever floats your boat I guess.

Thanks for the info. I had never heard that explained before.

In my little CZFS 9.3, with a 20.5" barrel i use..
Norma Brass
Fed 215 primer
Varget 60gr.
286 Nosler Part.
2355 FPS
And i 3/4 to 1" groups....What a great little gun

quote:

Originally posted by Jagter:

quote:

2265
2253
2271
2262
2253

for an average of 2360 fps.

Suppose you mean average of 2260 fps!

Jagter, you are correct. I went back and corrected my original post. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Nominal velocities should be:

286 gr. 2430 fps

300 gr. 2370 fps

Will, I don't know what the ammo from A-Square is loaded too but I am pretty sure the Norma 286 grain ammo is loaded to 2360 fps, at least that is the published velocity. I know that Nosler shows the 2430 fps load with their 286 grain Partition but I have never chronographed this stuff to see what it is really doing. I am good with the 286 grain bullet at 2360 fps. I think that would be an excellent hunting load of more modest pressure and you you should get a little better bullet performance.

Dave

I´ve never managed to push my old Husky past 735m/s (using a 250gr bullet) but it is accurate and lethal with just about any load.

The 9.3x64 should open up some new options...

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Nominal velocities should be:

286 gr. 2430 fps

300 gr. 2370 fps

Will, I don't know what the ammo from A-Square is loaded too but I am pretty sure the Norma 286 grain ammo is loaded to 2360 fps, at least that is the published velocity. I know that Nosler shows the 2430 fps load with their 286 grain Partition but I have never chronographed this stuff to see what it is really doing. I am good with the 286 grain bullet at 2360 fps. I think that would be an excellent hunting load of more modest pressure and you you should get a little better bullet performance.

Dave

Like I said, it is only a nominal velocity. The only problem I see with reduced loads it that they are reduced loads! I'm guessing that bullets don't know the difference between 2350 and 2450. Whatever.

In my CZ 550 American 286gr Partition,65gr Ramshot BigGame avg velocity 2433fps. Excellent accuracy as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Nominal velocities should be:

286 gr. 2430 fps

300 gr. 2370 fps

Will, I don't know what the ammo from A-Square is loaded too but I am pretty sure the Norma 286 grain ammo is loaded to 2360 fps, at least that is the published velocity. I know that Nosler shows the 2430 fps load with their 286 grain Partition but I have never chronographed this stuff to see what it is really doing. I am good with the 286 grain bullet at 2360 fps. I think that would be an excellent hunting load of more modest pressure and you you should get a little better bullet performance.

Dave

Like I said, it is only a nominal velocity. The only problem I see with reduced loads it that they are reduced loads! I'm guessing that bullets don't know the difference between 2350 and 2450. Whatever.

Will:

I think it does make a difference with the Woodleighs, at least with the round nose bullets. The recommended impact velocity for the round nose bullets is 1800-2200 fps. It probably would be a good idea to slow them down a bit more. It wouldn't make much difference with the protected points. They are designed to be driven faster. The recommended impact velocity for the protected points is 1900-2600 fps.

Dave

Dave, follow this link and see how you can make your 9.3 x 62 a much more livelier rifle.

Those who tested this option says it's a huge improvement over the conventional and highly recommend other 9.3 x 62 owners to go the same route.

Thanks Jagter. That 230 grain bullet would make an excellent plains game round.

Dave

The GS bullet had better be good at a $1.80/shot. They make Accubonds look like a bargain.

..........I would say it is a great setup for the 9.3x64 Brenneke but you can,t get that speed with a 9.3x62 Mauser ........

gumboot458 -

I don't know which of these powders are available in your part of the world, but surely that speed is possible with GSC's drive band technology. That's what make it so absolutely possible.
Start Load DO NOT EXCEED
Calibre Bullet Powder Grains Max SPEED
9.3x62 9.3195HV S335 2900


9.3x62 9.3230HV S335 58 2800
VV N135 58 2800
H335 57 2800
H4895 58 2800

JS, GSC's are extremely good and worth their price any time!

Dave,

quote:

That 230 grain bullet would make an excellent plains game round.

You're absolutely right, especially on the larger plains game in RSA.

Once you've tried them, you'll never look back again.

So, why not just get a 338 Win or 340 Wby?

I do have a load, using 232gr Norma Oryx that will print 1&1/2 inches higher than my 286gr NP load. The velocity on the 232gr is 2550 fps with the same charge of Ramshot Big Game I use with the 286gr. I can get it up over 2700 fps with Varget but then I have to fiddle with the scope because it prints 4 to 5 inches higher than the 286gr load. Both loads have about the same trajectory so I've just gone back to the 286gr NP for anything I'd care to shoot with a 9.3 x62. For lighter game I prefer a 270 anyway.

Now I suppose that if you can only have a limited number of firearms this is a great idea. Admittedly, we are spoiled in that respect here in the US.

...........I would like to believe the 2800 fps ..,,,, maybe from a 28" barrel with a long chamber But witth 64.5 gr of H4895 and a 250 gr TSX I get 2725 fps from a 21,1/2" barreled 93x64 Brennekenot 62 Mauser ....That is the max working load for that powder with that bullet ........I know GS HV,s are super bullets and I,m really looking fwd using them ............But Barnes are pretty super also ......and the TSX produces less pressure than the X bullets ................................

GUmboot,
There were a couple fellows on AR cranking near 2725mv?(iirc) 35whelen225tsx,
cant see why 9.3x62 with the less restrictive 230hv cant make 2800mv a real world possibility.
I reckon 9.3x64B-260hv 2700mv, would have to be one of the best std action medium/big bore hammers in exhistance.

...launched from longer necked 9.3x68s, it would be near devine


Originally posted by 35Whelen:
My Whelen has been used to kill two elk. I first used the 225 gr. Nosler and was deeply disappointed in its performance even though I got the bull. As such, I switched to the 225 gr. TSX. Using Re-15, while working up loads, I fired 14 groups 3 of which weren't under 1"...that's right, 11 of 14 groups went under 1" @ 100 yds. Even the 3 that didn't were 1.5" or less. I was able to attain a final velocity of 2723 fps, but the load was too compressed for my tastes and I couldn't seat the bullet out any further. So, I settled on 61.0 Gr. of Re-15 which netted 2676 fps (knocking on Mr. 338 Winchesters back door). This load grouped into .6" and i'm happy.
My Dad used my rifle to finish his bull elk off. it was almost dark, the bull was hit already and was (we thought) going to get away. Dad fired at the west end of the eastbound bull and hit him square in the 'taterhole (rectum). upon skinning and quartering, we were amazed to find that the bullet had travelled from the rectum to the point of the right shoulder.

[endQUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
..........I would say it is a great setup for the 9.3x64 Brenneke but you can,t get that speed with a 9.3x62 Mauser ........

Gumboot,

I have seen some reloading info in recent manuals that have never been pressure tested and the same is true for the many "private" loads are floating around between individuals. Your feeling that a 230 gr bullet with a velocity of 2,800 fps with a 9,3x62 mm rifle is pushing it, is supported by my own tests that I have conducted.

The recommended start load for the 230 gr HV bullet is 58 grains S335 per the GSC website, and a maximum velocity of ultimately 2,800 fps without indicating what load would yield this velocity. This is not a criticism, as rifle rigs differ, but simply that we do not know more or less what the charge would be. Nevertheless, it is not just about reaching the maximum velocity out of a rifle with super hot loads, but rather about reaching a "maximum safe velocity" staying inside the CIP spec, being the industry standard.

Velocities are normally tested with 24-inch barrels (23.6") for the 9,3x62 mm by test labs, and as such that becomes the datum when figures are published by those that issue reloading data, as most have their loads pressure tested as they have to suggest the most appropriate powders for a caliber and the different bullet weights that are going to be used. Some reloading manuals mention these pressure levels as a guide. Velocity differentials will naturally result if we vary the barrel length up or down.

Let us look at the recommended START LOAD of 58 grains of S335, magnum primer:

The barrel used was the 24-inch test barrel of the laboratory (Industry Standard).
Cartridge AOL = 85 mm
Ave. velocity achieved = 2,634 fps
Ave Peak Pressure = 98% of CIP max
VC = 45.4 fps per grain of powder

We also know that after some point the pressure curve does not exhibit a straight line relationship anymore, but an exponential increase in the curve. Based on this fact and my lab testing, I would pretty much regard the recommended "START LOAD" of GS Custom as the "MAXIMUM LOAD". I certainly would not push my K98 action beyond CIP max pressure and incur undue and sustained back thrust on the lugs for eventual lug setback.

If we assume a straight-line relationship and extrapolate to reach a velocity of 2,800 fps, we need a charge of 61.7 grains of S335, but it would put us far beyond the CIP maximum pressure.

In any event 2,634 fps is good enough for hunting plains game, as the 30-06 Spr at similar velocity has proven for more than a 100 years now.

Warrior

GsCustomHV driveband bullets are the only type(that I am aware of) where one begins loading with the projectile set against the lands,...with a leadcore or barnesX/tsx monmetal, you could be courting trouble.
Its apparent GscHV have an unique design and nature,and as i see it, one needs to do pressure&vel. testing with that drive band projectile in particular, to be able to soundly draw any worthwhile scientific conclusion.


from GSC website:

Start load development with the bullet touching the rifling if throat, magazine box and case dimensions will allow it. HV and FN bullets do not raise pressure levels like jacketed lead and standard and grooved monometal bullets do, when seated against the rifling.


A good rule of thumb that has never failed with HV and FN bullets is to take the max load for a jacketed bullet of the same weight and work up from there. HV / FN will give slightly lower speeds for the same powder charge than jacketed bullets but pressure is much reduced. If you used a normal starting load with an HV, you would feel the difference in recoil and sometimes the cases do not even seal properly. By the time pressures are at the high end, HVs are moving considerably faster than standard bullets.


QUESTION:
I understand you expect your HV bullets to reach more velocity at the same pressure than "normal" bullets. Why is this so?

ANSWER:
The additional speed gained, is as a result of the coming together of a number of conditions. We describe this fully in our load guide linked from the HV Bullets page. The basics of it is that the driving bands are much easier for the rifling to cut through, than the full engraving of the bullet bearing surface of a smooth bullet. The body of the bullet rides precisely in the bore of the rifle, while the driving bands are a perfect fit up to groove diameter of the rifling.

Norma 9.3x62 quotes 232gn Vulcan&Oryx leadcore loadings at 2625mv.
Norma 9.3x62 250Aframe 2625mv
Conley Precision has 250AF & 250tsx at 2620mv.

NoslerCustom has 35whelen 225np/ab 2725mv
DoubleTap 35Whelen 225ab 2700mv

quote:

Another area where GS Custom bullets depart from convention.

Calibre Bullet Powder Start Load Grains Max. Load Speed
375 H&H 375265HV.091 S341 74 2900
(RSA)

Based on the following question, re the above load recommendation made on the 375H&H 265gr GSCHV bullet, asked by a person:
"The other strange thing for me is the recommendation of a start load of 74 gr of S341, which I understand but then a velocity ceiling limit? How is this derived in terms of a pressure limit? Surely the logical way would be to put a load ceiling and not a velocity ceiling?"

GSC's logical and proven reply:
"I have taken same caliber rifles to the range for load development and testing, more times than I care to mention. Invariably, identical start loads on three to five rifles of the same caliber, will result in different speeds. As you work up the scale, such a set of rifles will show pressure at different powder levels, but at similar speed levels, if barrel lengths are the same.
It is quite clear to me that the relationship between maximum pressure and muzzle velocity, is closer than the relationship between maximum pressure and powder charge.
A load that is safe in one rifle may blow a primer in another and will always result in more speed as well.
However, if you bring the two rifles to the same muzzle velocity with different powder charges, pressure levels between the two will also be closer. Once a powder charge has been decided on, check it by loading and firing the same case with it until the primer pocket loosens. If you get more than five or six loads from a case, pressure is not over the top."

"Load data that specify a maximum powder charge always carry the caution that the loads are only applicable to the test barrel used. It makes more sense to me to specify a known safe start load and a maximum speed that should not be exceeded.
Such a maximum speed will occur at differing powder levels from rifle to rifle but will be closer to the correct maximum pressure for that rifle than blindly following a stated maximum powder charge."

It once again underscores the necessity to control your loading by use of a chronograph and loading to the expected velocities, but never exceed the specified maximum velocity.

PLEASE NOTE: You can never compare GSC HV and FN bullets with any other type of bullet simply because of the GSC's completely different drive band design.
Never use the loads recommended for GSC HV and FN bullets when any other type of bullet is used - not even with GSC's own HP (non-drive band design) bullets.

With this in mind, it simply follows that no comparisons can be made between what is possible, both speed and pressure wise, with GSC's HV and FN bullets and any other bullets available on the market.

Accept that GSC HV & FN bullets are exceptional and far more superior than other available bullets at present.

quote:

It once again underscores the necessity to control your loading by use of a chronograph and loading to the expected velocities, but never exceed the specified maximum velocity.

Jagter,

The basic premise is correct that one should rather look at max velocity as oppossed to max powder charge. However, that is only true IF the maximum specified velocity is based on pressure testing, meaning it should not exceed P-Max. Without pressure testing one will never know if one is under or over the CIP max. In this case the max velocity of 2,800 fps is too high for a 230 gr bullet from a 9,3x62 mm and I would regard it as an unsafe velocity limit.

Warrior

Só, you would regard 47.3gr of S335 in my .308 with a 1:10" twist and a 23" barrel at a muzzle velocity of 3200fps also as an excessive and an unsafe load?

Get a life for a change, Warrior! I have reloaded the same brass cases now for a ninth (9) time already without the slightest sign of any deterioration in those cases.

Please note once again, it is only possible with GSC HV's and FN's - no other bullets.

Só, please don't try this at home or at school with anything else!!!

Jagter,

I know nothing about your 308 Win load - that is another matter. Please do not introduce an unrelated matter to confuse the issue. We are discussing the 9,3x62 load here that I took the trouble to have it tested.

My contention is that a max recommended velocity aught to be based on pressure testing. To measure is to know. Please concentrate, I am not talking about the bullet per se, but the load behind the bullet and what constitute a safe load in terms of CIP specs. That is to say if you accept CIP standards or if you reject them. No more and no less.

Warrior

Some load data from the article "Medium Mediums" by John Barsness in the December-January 2008 issue (#250) of Handloader magazine:


From the article: An asterisk (*) denotes a “deer load,†somewhat reduced in velocity from maximum, and has a point of impact almost exactly the same as loads marked with two asterisks (**).

Cheers!
-Bob F.

quote:

A load that is safe in one rifle may blow a primer in another and will always result in more speed as well.
However, if you bring the two rifles to the same muzzle velocity with different powder charges, pressure levels between the two will also be closer. Once a powder charge has been decided on, check it by loading and firing the same case with it until the primer pocket loosens. If you get more than five or six loads from a case, pressure is not over the top."

Warrior, if you have concentrated 3 posts earlier already, you would have realized that the pressure maximum has already been taken fully into account in all the recommended maximum speeds as specified by GS Custom - whether it is .308 or 9.3 x 62 caliber.

Over and out.

,,,,,Boy oh boy ,.,;;;I didn,t mean to start a big hairy fight .... ......Surely someone has some of their own chronograph data , together with the loads ,.,., to prove a 9.3x62 Mauser can go this fast ..... ..,.,.,I,m in no way dis believeing it can be done ,.,. I would just like to not take load data as gospel without the actual loads and velocities ...........I,ll obviously have to do my own load development .............For me ,,the shape and construction of the bullet combined with the normal speed I could drive a 230 gr bullet from MY RIFLE ......Is all I,m after....If I can , with safe pressures drive that bullet to say 2850 or faster ,,,so much the better ...... ..,.,.,

Guys, I am curious. Why do you want to shoot such light bullets in your 9,3? I usually shoot 270 or 286 grain bullets. If you take a shoot a 270 grain speer at around 2450 the max point blank range in probably about 240 yards.

I guess I am thinking that if I want to shoot 225 grain bullets, I would use my .35 Whelen or perhaps a .338 Mag.

Dave

I did a lot of work with the 9.3x62 a couple of years ago, which I reported here, and routinely achieved 2600fps with 250gr BT, 2500fps with 270gr Speer, and 2400fps with 286 Partitions. This was in a Mark X action sporting a 23" barrel.

I found that I could easily hold a six inch circle with the 250BT, which has a BC close to .500, to 260yds. I felt quite comfortable shooting at 300yds targets with it if I had a good rest.

Why would one want to push the 9.3x62 further? Because fetching a .338 from the states might be difficult when you find you need another 25 yards range in Namibia. Kudude

gumboot458, Dave & kudude:

kudude wrote:

quote:

Why would one want to push the 9.3x62 further?

Só, here's the reason for that once again!

On top of this reason:

quote:

Because fetching a .338 from the states might be difficult when you find you need another 25 yards range in Namibia. Kudude

,

we in the RSA are limited by law in the number of firearms we may have registered in our names and we therefor have to make things work with what we already have - no such thing as just quickly get another rifle for the new purpose.

Yet, others around the world may also benefit from this by using the bullets with their exceptional design as offered by GS Custom .

Warrior/Truvelloshooter/Chris,

11 posts since you came back from holiday and more than half are dedicated to opposing GSC or my opinion. You need help. Something is broken inside your head.

quote:

gumboot458 posted:
I didn,t mean to start a big hairy fight

Not your fault. Bekker addles every thread where he is allowed a foothold.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Guys, I am curious. Why do you want to shoot such light bullets in your 9,3? "" If you take and shoot a 270 grain speer at around 2450 the max point blank range in probably about 240 yards.

I guess I am thinking that if I want to shoot 225 grain bullets, I would use my .35 Whelen or perhaps a .338 Mag.Dave /[QUOTE].... ........Dave ........................I seem to always have a rifle with me ...........either in my rig ,,boat ,4 wheeler ,,or hands ......I just always have a rifle with me ...........Rarely do I just have a handgun .............It must be able to knock down a bear .!!!!!..I was deer hunting 2 years ago and had a bear come in pretty close and didn,t have enough confidence in my 9.3x62 ........a hundred feet per second is better to have than not ...So I went to the Brenneke ........years ago I missed out on killing some wolves because I had only an iron sighted 416 w/ 400 gr bullets ....A 230 gr HV in 9.3 is really pretty ideal ... 400 yrds on wolf ....20 feet on a bear if needed....and be easy to pack around .............Yes a 378 Weatherby will do this job also ,,,,but I have a 9.3 ...........I shoot lots of 270 gr Speer 9.3 bullets ,.,., But I would be nervous shooting a moose with one ......A 230 HV no prob , hope to next fall ..

Jagter,

Remember we had the same discussion about HOT LOADS when you wrote about the .375/265 gr HV bullet doing 2,906 fps with 77.3 grains of S341 behind the bullet. It was pointed out by various people here on AR that this load exceeds pressure limits (SAAMI & CIP) by far. We never got a convincing answer as it was apparent that pressure testing on this extremely hot load was not conducted. It still begs the question is it a safe load or not?

Now yet again with the .366/230 gr HV bullet doing 2,800 fps, you say the pressure limit has been taken care of. How ... ? With actual pressure testing or just loading up, firing and no apparent signs of pressure. My guess would be that it is the latter. I pointed out that this load is also over the CIP P-max. It begs the question .... is it a safe load?

The velocity craze never seems to stop to amaze me, but what is even more amazing is that when it is pointed out that a load exceeds industry pressure standards how it is defended with flimsy responses.

The question what we have to ask then is ... what is this MAX safe position relative to CIP.


Warrior

Gerard,

I am not talking about your BULLET. I am talking about the load behind the bullet and what is SAFE for people out there doing their own reloading.

You always need to make personal attacks rather than to just answer a simple question. In this case, I think we need the EVIDENCE if it is there at all.

Warrior