Gecko,

The GSC bullet is a lathe-turned bullet and as such it is a precision made bullet. I do not refer to gas 'blow-by', but rather 'muzzle flash' that happens with all bullets when they part with the barrel, but in particular to those hot loads with light bullets where at 1.5 m they knock the reading off the the Lab's chronograph and do not log a velocity due to the shock wave. I position my chronograph 5 paces out when I am on the range.

Muzzle flash can easliy be seen at night and they are worse the shorter one makes the barrel or when one throws more powder. We also observed this trend as we moved to faster burning powders that the lighter bullets call for - from S355 to S341 and then again to S321.

warrior

quote:

I do not refer to gas 'blow-by', but rather 'muzzle flash' that happens with all bullets when they part with the barrel, but in particular to those hot loads with light bullets ...

Once again:

quote:

.... what you have noticed above was certainly not while shooting GSC's bullets,

because they are in your own words:

quote:

The GSC bullet is a lathe-turned bullet and as such it is a precision made bullet,

hence very little, if any, gas blow-by.

What you have probably noticed is muzzle flash enhanced by 'gas blow-by' caused by 'little bit undersized bullets' which you are calling "light bullets" in front of 'hot loads' per your definition.

Go shoot GSC's at night with their so-called hot loads per yourself and immediately afterwards conventional lead/copper jacketed bullets, say for instance your favourite slow and heavy Rhino's - the muzzle flash in the latter case will be far worse than in the first instance described here!

Gecko,

I will try to do this test at night time when I get an opportunity as you suggest. Have you actually done this test yourself or are you saying it on the basis that Rhino bullets are generally half a thou under spec?

As a matter of interest what velocity are you getting with the 265 gr HV bullet and with what load in your .375 H&H?

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

I know that Nosler shows the 2430 fps
load with their 286 grain Partition

Dave

Dave - they use a 26" barrel. I found them to be their standard optimistic selves and was only able to acheive 2,300fps out of my 24" barrel by going over their charge weights with VVN140.

FWIW I would view the modern industry standard for 286gr to be 2,300fps.

quote:

I will try to do this test at night time ....

No, don't use Rhino's.
Friend of mine set the veld alight out of the prone position with a ± 2.5meter red hot flame when he ambushed bush pigs at night with Rhino 286gr in his 375H&H.

quote:

As a matter of interest what velocity are you getting with the 265 gr HV bullet and with what load in your .375 H&H?

Average of 2822fps with 75.7gr S341.
Unfortunately that is the maximum powder quantity I could get into PMP brass cases - hoping to do better with better quality Remington cases which I have ordered.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Gecko,

I will try to do this test at night time when I get an opportunity as you suggest. Have you actually done this test yourself or are you saying it on the basis that Rhino bullets are generally half a thou under spec?

As a matter of interest what velocity are you getting with the 265 gr HV bullet and with what load in your .375 H&H?

Warrior

................................Warrior , I,ve read all your replies throughly and have come to the conclusion that you are a semi educated adjitator ...You know enough to talk s--t but you have a personal bent toward maligning GS Custom .............I,ve never done this before and hope to never again do it but You are the sole member out of , what,?? 37,000 people who is on my ignore list ...Good Bye

quote:

Let us look at the recommended START LOAD of 58 grains of S335, magnum primer:

The barrel used was the 24-inch test barrel of the laboratory (Industry Standard).
Cartridge AOL = 85 mm
Ave. velocity achieved = 2,634 fps
Ave Peak Pressure = 98% of CIP max
VC = 45.4 fps per grain of powder

Gumboot,

Are you disputing the above test of the Ballistics Lab?
If you believe this is sh...t, then so be it.
The above is in no way a refelction on the HV bullet.
It is simply a test with a result that appears on a display.

Anyway, happy hunting and goodbye.

Warrior

I hope I am not the only one that lost track of what the arguement is two pages back I am not sure what we are talking about now.

Muzzle flash is creating mostly by fast burning powders such as BLC-2 and also in short barrels...It is just burning powder that didn't burn up in the barrel...

/

More on muzzle flash ... click on link ... http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-090.htm

Muzzle blast is the term used to describe the release of hot, high pressure gases from the muzzle of a firearm when it is discharged.

Muzzle flash is the term used to describe the visible light of the muzzle blast.

Here is a photo showing a flash with a muzzle brake:



Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
More to muzle flash than just unburnt powder and or short barrels.

Like everything ballistics it's way more complicated you can have flash with all the powder consumed

..........? ..Please explain ..?

Here is an engineering report on .....

Gun Muzzle Blast Field: A Computational Method Based on the Unified Theory of Explosions, for those interested in the theory behind muzzle blast that will hopefully explain and address the subject in adequate detail so Alf does not have to re-invent the wheel for further elucidation

...... http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=getRecord&metadata...identifier=ADA051065


Check the spherical shock waves generated by the firing of the guns of the USS Iowa war ship.
The shock waves are clearly visible on the ocean's surface as they are rippling outwards.
We can also distinguish between the white bright muzzle flashes and the clouds of gunpowder combustion.




Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Jagter:
Dave, follow this link and see how you can make your 9.3 x 62 a much more livelier rifle.

Those who tested this option says it's a huge improvement over the conventional and highly recommend other 9.3 x 62 owners to go the same route.

Jagter, I sent you a PM.

Dave

Guys, if you recall, I said I had some 250 TSX bullets on the way. I loaded some up and shot them across the chronograph this morning. It was quite cold and windy up here.

The load was a Norma case, Winchester standard large rifle primer, 60 grains or Varget and a 250 grain TSX;

2533
2528
2531
2523
2511

for an average of 2525 fps.

Dave

quote:

have thot this thru ALOT ..,,Then I took my ideas and tested them in different sort of bush Alaskan ways .............A 250 gr Barnes 9.3 cal TSX or X bullet will penetrate 2 times further than the 270 gr Speer bullet and still retain 70 % and usually 95 % of their weight ...they expand to more than 70 caliber and fly flat enough to make 400 yard shots practically doable , instead of hopeable ..........I am unwilling to go thru the hassles I used to or the missed opportunities of the past when I can have 1 rifle and bullet and sight in,, that will work on game and pests from 15 feet - 400 yrds

I am using the 250 gr Barnes-X bullets myself. They perform very well on game, but being non-grooved they show more pressure than the newer TSX version. Somchem shows a max load in their reloading manual at the max CIP level at a mere 2,425 fps with 54 grains of S335, using standard primers. I would guess that the grooved TSX should be at about this same level around 2,500 - 2,550 fps. Even if the pressure is slightly less, I believe one should have a bit of lee-way below P-Max in any event. Modeling the 250 TSX bullet with Quickload shows the following interesting position:

Tabular trajectory data at Std.ICAO Atmosphere
--------------------------------------------------------------
Gun / Ammunition : 9.3 x 62
Bullet : .366, 250, Barnes 'TSX'
Bullet weight : 250 grains
Muzzle velocity : 2500 fps
Crosswind speed : 10 Mph
Ballistic Coefficient(s) (G1):
BC of bullet = 0.428

--------------------------------------------------------------


Range ---------- Velocity ----- Path to LOS
0 ---------------- 2,500 fps --------- -2.0"
50 Yds --------- 2,400 fps --------- -0.2"
100 Yds ------- 2,302 fps --------- 0.0
150 Yds ------- 2,206 fps -------- -1.4"
200 Yds ------- 2,113 fps -------- -4.7"
250 Yds ------- 2,021 fps -------- -9.8"
300 Yds ------- 1,932 fps -------- -16.9"
350 Yds ------- 1,846 fps -------- -26.4"
400 Yds ------- 1,763 fps -------- -38.7"
---------------------------------------------------------------

Zero @ 200 yds, bullet drops to -29.4" @ 400 yds
Zero at 300 yds, bullet drops to -16.3" @ 400 yds

I do not feel comfortable with this load as an "all-round" bullet/load combination from 15 yards to 400 yards if that is the objective - in fact we should rather opt for some other magnum round in another caliber. Just look at the bullet drop and that with a bullet featuring a BC of .428. I do not like a bullet to fall lower than 6 inches after my zero distance on the one hand, and on the other, I do not like a bullet to fall below 1,900 fps, but preferably around the 2,100 fps to 2,200 fps impact velocity range. Be that as it may, the trajectory is just not good enough with the 250 gr TSX bullet to qualify as that imaginary all-round bullet. Truth be told, it is actually a fallacy to propagate it as such. The 300 Win Mag should be a contender as a minimum in my opinion if we want to hunt at ranges out to 400 meters.

Back to the 9,3 caliber - yes with a bit more velocity (at my tested 2,634 fps @ 98% of CIP), the 230 hr HV bullet is better suited than the 250 gr TSX (2,500 fps) at longer ranges, and the 180 gr Impala bullet at 2,881 fps (at 86.5% of P-Max as tested by the Lab) is even better and on par with what we can expect from the 300 Win Mag. We basically have to turn the 9,3x62 mm into a .300 Magnum.

Let us not kid ourselves in believing in pipe dreams.

Warrior

Warrior:

I agree with you. I don't think the 9.3 is a 400 yard gun. There are other cartridges that are much better suited for that purpose,

At a muzzle velocity of 2525, if you zero a 250 grain TSX bullet at about 2.5 inches high at 100 yards, it is dead on at 212 yards and has a maximum point blank range of 250 yards. That's plenty good enough for me.

Do you believe that the 250 grain TSX would out-penetrate a 286 grain Woodleigh protected point?

Dave

Dave

/

quote:

Do you believe that the 250 grain TSX would out-penetrate a 286 grain Woodleigh protected point?

Dave,

I have never done this two-way test. It depends very much on momentum and on expansion (Mo/Xsa). I would venture to say Barnes bullet as its expansion is never more than 2x, whereas the Wdl may be much more. At least Wdl's PP does expand slower than their SN, but I cannot say conclusively.

Warrior

Hey Warrior,
No use talking to Gumboot. He cant hear you he has you on ignore.

quote:

Do you believe that the 250 grain TSX would out-penetrate a 286 grain Woodleigh protected point? Warrior: I have never done this two-way test. I cannot say conclusively.

If you have to think about that one and you use the 250gr TSX yourself (you say) you are proving how little experience you actually have. Shoot I have only been around shooters for a short while and the answer is obvious.

quote:

Warrior: Let us not kid ourselves in believing in pipe dreams.

Good old Mr. Flexible Opinion


You may have noticed it has become good sport for some to bait you when you post.

Hey Warrior
I just noticed something. You gave the reference below to Gumboot like you have read it all and oh hum dont bother me and Alf with these silly little questions.

quote:

Gun Muzzle Blast Field: A Computational Method Based on the Unified Theory of Explosions, for those interested in the theory behind muzzle blast that will hopefully explain and address the subject in adequate detail so Alf does not have to re-invent the wheel for further elucidation

Well there are no links on that page to any article.So what have you done? Read the title and abstract and absorbed the rest of the 34 pages over the internet by some electronic osmosis? Ah dont tell me you know the contents of the entire article instinctively.

quote:

Originally posted by Rat Motor:
Hey Warrior,
No use talking to Gumboot. He cant hear you he has you on ignore.

quote:

Do you believe that the 250 grain TSX would out-penetrate a 286 grain Woodleigh protected point? Warrior: I have never done this two-way test. I cannot say conclusively.

If you have to think about that one and you use the 250gr TSX yourself (you say) you are proving how little experience you actually have. Shoot I have only been around shooters for a short while and the answer is obvious.

quote:

Warrior: Let us not kid ourselves in believing in pipe dreams.

Good old Mr. Flexible Opinion


You may have noticed it has become good sport for some to bait you when you post.

Rat Motor:

I sent you a PM.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Dave:

In my Brno Rifle ZG 47:

TSX 250
Varget 56 gr
FED 210 M
PMP cases
average 2301 fps

Swift A-frame 250 gr
Varget 56 gr
FED 210 M
PMP cases:
average 2333 fps

Alf,

Could you please post a nice picture for me of your ZG 47.
Interesting to note that with the very same load the TSX and A-Frame bullet produced essentially the same velocity.
The hotter load is also close.

Thanks
Warrior

I have shot game with the 286 gr. Woodleigh and one of the GS Custom bullets that was light for caliber and I'm thinking it was 230 grs.

Based on that, I believe the monolithic GS Custom bullet was the better penetrator of the two, but not sure it made any difference in the killing power as both bullets performed admireably....

Hey Warrior

quote:

Well there are no links on that page to any article.So what have you done? Read the title and abstract and absorbed the rest of the 34 pages over the internet by some electronic osmosis? Ah dont tell me you know the contents of the entire article instinctively.

I must educate myself about these things. Do you have a working link to this article? Can you tell those of us who can not find it what it says? Your help will be greatly appreciated. You did read the article yourself didnt you?

Rat Motor,
Give it up, he does not have the article, nor has he read it.

Gerard,

Your avoidance to answer a simple question does give rise to some serious doubt as to whether or not the load yielding 2,800 fps with your .366/230 gr HV was ever pressure tested. If it was pressure tested, just say so and give us the result, or just say it was a load that was "worked up" with no apparent signs of pressure - it is that simple. Also tell us what this max load was that yielded this max safe velocity of 2,800 fps as per your reloading data. What we really want to know is your position on exceeding P-Max vis-a-vis recommended safe loads. This issue came about by me having your minimum load tested for the .366/230 gr HV bullet and it turned out to yield a velocity of 2,634 fps at 98% of P-Max.

In similar vain, other readers on AR brought into question the 2,900 fps with the .375/265 gr HV load that seems to be far over the recommended maximum industry pressure standard. I am quite willing to have these 2 max loads (the 9,3 & .375) tested for my own account and provide you with the results.

I think this is a fair question in terms of what the public needs to know when your bullets are loaded up. Let me say again that the quality of the workmanship on your bullets are superb, but the issue here is what you consider/recommend to be a safe load, and all the reloaders out there ought to know this. This is your duty and obligation to the public that use your product.

So you can now decide if you want give us the comfort of knowing, or must I GIVE UP extracting the answer from you?

Warrior

Gerard wrote in reply to Warrior's mumbling:

quote:

So publish your results of pressure tests with the 9.3 230gr HV bullet instead of raising a never ending merry go round of puffing and strutting and arguing, just to see yourself in print. You always demand evidence from everyone else and never produce any of your own.

Also this:

quote:

If this is the same 9.3 test that you were going to publish in the middle of 2005, I will not hold my breath waiting.

From myself once again:

quote:

Stop being the AR village idiot.

Chris/Warrior/Truvelloshooter,
Publish your pressure tests and prove me wrong.

By the way, I would also like to see the article Rat Motor is asking for. Have you read it? Do you have it? I do not think so.

You are scamming the members here, pretending to be something you are not and that is despicable.

Gerard,

1) At the bottom of the text in the link it says .... "Members of the public may purchase hardcopy documents from the National Technical Information Service." You must have missed that. So anyone wishing to read up on it can buy it if they so wish. It seems Rat Motor is keen to learn some more. My postings on this issue is clear and is not claiming something that is not there or creates conflict with traditional views.

2) You are not comforting us with your max safe loads. Why Gerard, why ??? It is not my duty to prove anybody wrong. You have a public obligation to stand behind your max loads, not me. My test is simply what I have done amongst all the other loads that I have had tested and that is for myself. You have to say if you recommend loads over P-Max and the public liability is on you !!!

The results of the pressure testing will be published and yes it relates to the work that we have done some 2 years ago. The "we" includes Kobus du Plessis, Pieter Olivier and myself. Don't let the timing worry you.

This is not a scam as you hint, but an honest effort by the 3 of us. If you want a 3 rd party certificate it can be sent to you - so there is no "pretending" - only the factual results.

I have now given up getting a straight answer from you and can only conclude that you are hiding behind your bravado.

Warrior

Hey Warrior
I have taken a closer look at your posts and you mouth off left right and centre about GS Custom but most of what you say is not true. You should be ashamed of yourself. Your opinion is as hollow as an empty paper bag and worth even less.

quote:

Your feeling that a 230 gr bullet with a velocity of 2,800 fps with a 9,3x62 mm rifle is pushing it, is supported by my own tests that I have conducted.

quote:

Like wise I have found that S355 works better with the 230 gr HV bullet than S335 - it gives a better trade-off between velocity & pressure and still staying inside P-Max.

quote:

It was quite hilarious to see how my figures were attacked, how I was accused of sucking it out of my thumb and best of all that they (Jagter, Gerard & Springtrap) suspected that I have never done the testing at all.

quote:

At least I have done the testing and it will be published soon in one of our local gun magazines. I do have the evidence and that is exactly why it needs to be published. My pressure tests so far covered quite a few bullets: Impala - Spitzer (180 gr) Impala - RNFP(250 gr) GS-HV - 230 gr

After all that you say this.

quote:

I am quite willing to have these 2 max loads (the 9,3 & .375) tested for my own account and provide you with the results.

In other words you have not pressure tested the maximum load. I am amazed at the depths of deception you will go to just to create an argument.

quote:

1) At the bottom of the text in the link it says .... "Members of the public may purchase hardcopy documents from the National Technical Information Service." You must have missed that. So anyone wishing to read up on it can buy it if they so wish. It seems Rat Motor is keen to learn some more. My postings on this issue is clear and is not claiming something that is not there or creates conflict with traditional views.

Translation: I googled the page and did not see that the report is not there but the title looked good so I used it to create the illusion that I know about these things. Now that I have been caught out I will double dutch my way out of it. These guys are all stupid anyway.


It would be interesting to know how many members have you on ignore. It would be more interesting to know who is the most ignored person on the forum. It might be you.

quote:

Let us look at the recommended START LOAD of 58 grains of S335, magnum primer:

The barrel used was the 24-inch test barrel of the laboratory (Industry Standard).
Cartridge AOL = 85 mm
Ave. velocity achieved = 2,634 fps
Ave Peak Pressure = 98% of CIP max
VC = 45.4 fps per grain of powder

We also know that after some point the pressure curve does not exhibit a straight line relationship anymore, but an exponential increase in the curve. Based on this fact and my lab testing, I would pretty much regard the recommended "START LOAD" of GS Custom as the "MAXIMUM LOAD". I certainly would not push my K98 action beyond CIP max pressure and incur undue and sustained back thrust on the lugs for eventual lug setback.

If we assume a straight-line relationship and extrapolate to reach a velocity of 2,800 fps, we need a charge of 61.7 grains of S335, but it would put us far beyond the CIP maximum pressure.

I am not quite sure how the above could possibly be misconstrued by anyone.
Rat Motor you are on IGNORE, I only repeated the above again to show your brilliance.



Warrior

............From what I had read before I ignored him ,,,,He has Shoothataway beat for being a cull .......At least Shoothataway is hilarious.......I mean , who ever heard of someone using a motor cycle helmet for shooting a 458 win mag ....or useing a sledge hammer to test solids

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
GUmboot,
There were a couple fellows on AR cranking near 2725mv?(iirc) 35whelen225tsx,
cant see why 9.3x62 with the less restrictive 230hv cant make 2800mv a real world possibility.
I reckon 9.3x64B-260hv 2700mv, would have to be one of the best std action medium/big bore hammers in exhistance.

...launched from longer necked 9.3x68s, it would be near devine


Originally posted by 35Whelen:
My Whelen has been used to kill two elk. I first used the 225 gr. Nosler and was deeply disappointed in its performance even though I got the bull. As such, I switched to the 225 gr. TSX. Using Re-15, while working up loads, I fired 14 groups 3 of which weren't under 1"...that's right, 11 of 14 groups went under 1" @ 100 yds. Even the 3 that didn't were 1.5" or less. I was able to attain a final velocity of 2723 fps, but the load was too compressed for my tastes and I couldn't seat the bullet out any further. So, I settled on 61.0 Gr. of Re-15 which netted 2676 fps (knocking on Mr. 338 Winchesters back door). This load grouped into .6" and i'm happy.
My Dad used my rifle to finish his bull elk off. it was almost dark, the bull was hit already and was (we thought) going to get away. Dad fired at the west end of the eastbound bull and hit him square in the 'taterhole (rectum). upon skinning and quartering, we were amazed to find that the bullet had travelled from the rectum to the point of the right shoulder.

[endQUOTE]

.................I was going back thru this thread and reread Woodjacks post ...I think he is right on with the 260 gr . .I am of the opinion that in the medium bores [ ie .323-.375] that the light to medium weight bullets , {IF OF MONO METAL CONSTRUCTION , and reliable expanding , are pretty much the most satisfying rounds and bullets to use ...They will do most thing in the game fields well and not kick the snot out of ya ...They will reach out well and if you accidentally bump into a dangerous game problem at close range they will do a fair job of pulling you thru ....... I think the 260 HV @ 2700 -2750 fps is easily doable from mu 9.3x64 ......And so it will be a shooting match between the 230 gr HV the 250 gr TSX and the 260 gr HV ............Essespecially after almost chocking on a bullet jacket last night at supper ......

Hey Warrior
You may say you have me on ignore but you are too obsessed (nosey) to do that. Just like the numerous times you said you are off a thread just to crawl back on again.


By your answer and omission you confirm the following:

quote:

In other words you have not pressure tested the maximum load. I am amazed at the depths of deception you will go to just to create an argument.

quote:

Translation: I googled the page and did not see that the report is not there but the title looked good so I used it to create the illusion that I know about these things. Now that I have been caught out I will double dutch my way out of it. These guys are all stupid anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
GUmboot,
There were a couple fellows on AR cranking near 2725mv?(iirc) 35whelen225tsx,
cant see why 9.3x62 with the less restrictive 230hv cant make 2800mv a real world possibility.
I reckon 9.3x64B-260hv 2700mv, would have to be one of the best std action medium/big bore hammers in exhistance.

...launched from longer necked 9.3x68s, it would be near devine


Originally posted by 35Whelen:
My Whelen has been used to kill two elk. I first used the 225 gr. Nosler and was deeply disappointed in its performance even though I got the bull. As such, I switched to the 225 gr. TSX. Using Re-15, while working up loads, I fired 14 groups 3 of which weren't under 1"...that's right, 11 of 14 groups went under 1" @ 100 yds. Even the 3 that didn't were 1.5" or less. I was able to attain a final velocity of 2723 fps, but the load was too compressed for my tastes and I couldn't seat the bullet out any further. So, I settled on 61.0 Gr. of Re-15 which netted 2676 fps (knocking on Mr. 338 Winchesters back door). This load grouped into .6" and i'm happy.
My Dad used my rifle to finish his bull elk off. it was almost dark, the bull was hit already and was (we thought) going to get away. Dad fired at the west end of the eastbound bull and hit him square in the 'taterhole (rectum). upon skinning and quartering, we were amazed to find that the bullet had travelled from the rectum to the point of the right shoulder.

[endQUOTE]

.................I was going back thru this thread and reread Woodjacks post ...I think he is right on with the 260 gr . .I am of the opinion that in the medium bores [ ie .323-.375] that the light to medium weight bullets , {IF OF MONO METAL CONSTRUCTION , and reliable expanding , are pretty much the most satisfying rounds and bullets to use ...They will do most thing in the game fields well and not kick the snot out of ya ...They will reach out well and if you accidentally bump into a dangerous game problem at close range they will do a fair job of pulling you thru ....... I think the 260 HV @ 2700 -2750 fps is easily doable from mu 9.3x64 ......And so it will be a shooting match between the 230 gr HV the 250 gr TSX and the 260 gr HV ............Essespecially after almost chocking on a bullet jacket last night at supper ......

Gumboot, I think I am coming around to your point of view. I now have some 250 grain TSX's and some 300 grain Swifts for my 9.3X62 and when I can round up some old phone books and the weather warms up a bit, I will put them to the test and let you know which one does better.

Dave

........Dave ,., No doubt the Swifts , Noslers and Woodlieghs are good to great bullets ....But to get the kind of size and penetration I need or want I would have to go with the heaviest bullets ........Since i use a medium as most people use a small bore I prefer the longer reach of the light to mid weight bullets .......Especially if I don,t have to give up expanded diameter or depth of penetration................I would rather have 3 rifles of the same caliber and specs than a rifle for long range and one for short range , one for big animals and one for small ...ect ect......Mayby this week I,ll see if I can bum someones 9.3 here ,,,,Mine is up north ,,,and try out some conventional bullets in it and report back ...I wish I had some GSC HV and HP to try along with the Barnes , Noslers , Lapuas, ect ....I,ll probably use gallon jugs and patches of OSB...The temp has come up so I should be able to do it with water not ice ......