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I'm reminded of a story about a local BC hunter that was out hunting moose a few years ago here in Northern BC. He came across a couple of grizzlies that were fighting and for some reason when they saw him (if I remember the story correctly) one of them charged him. He shot it as it was coming at him but it wasn't enough bullet to stop the bear. When asked by a reporter that was interviewing him in the hospital if he was going to quit hunting due too the attack the fellow stated "no way I'm just going to get a bigger gun" When I'm in the bush I want a gun/cartridge combo that is powerful enough to stop the largest most dangerous animal that I may encounter, not one that may get the job done. | |||
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Not trying to be argumentative moki, but IMHO every cartridge out there "may get the job done". There is no sure thing. It all depends where that bullet winds up. Knowing that for all but the biggest cannons, that a griz might just run through an impact to the chest anyway, I shoot for the CNS. And if you can hit that, most calibres "will" work. I am prepared to wait til that bear is right on me before I pull the trigger, to ensure a direct hit. I've been bluff charged enough to know that is a good practice regardless....I don't want to have to kill a g-bear unless I have a tag for one in my pocket. As I stated above, I don't worry about having a stopping rifle with me at all times when I am in the bush. To me it would be like using a 5 point harness, crash suit and helmet every time I get in a car. While I "can" carry my heavy large calibre rifles in all situations, I prefer to carry my light ones when I am doing a lot of vertical. They are just WAY more enjoyable to carry, and I personally don't see the very small risk of getting charged by a griz as sufficient reason to carry that extra couple pounds in my hand all day. JMHO, Canuck | |||
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Canuck I don't take it as being argumentative I actually see it as just 2 different view points. I am going to take your view just a little bit further though. Let me use handguns for an example... I carry a light Glock 20 10mm and a much heavier Ruger Super Redhawk in 454 Casull when I am in remote areas (I have an ATC) for protection. Which gun do I take when I'm in grizzly country? It is not the 10mm with 200gr bullets @ 1280fps I take the 454 Casull 360gr @ 1520fps. Can the 10mm kill a grizzly? Most definately but I'm sure that the bear will get to me before it dies which is something that I really don't want to happen. Now with that said there are many areas of BC that do not have grizzly populations so I can't justify carrying the Ruger SRH when I am in those areas. I look at hunting in different parts of BC the same way... If I'm hunting the local Coastal Mountains for blacktail deer I will most likely have my Rem 700 Mountain Rifle chambered in 280 Remington or my single shot TC Contender carbine chambered in 308Bellm which is a wildcat that gives 300 Savage performance for example. Put me in an area where I might run into grizzlies and I am carrying my s/s Rem 700 synthetic stocked BDL's in either 300 RUM with 200gr A-Frames or the 375 RUM with 300gr Partitions. Like I said earlier I would rather carry a rifle that weighs 2 lbs more and that I know will get the job done. | |||
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Hey moki, Nothin' wrong with your way of looking at things either.  I qualify for a carry permit as a timber cruiser, and have had one in the past. I carried a S&W M29 .44 Mag. My buddy, who has a carry permit as a prospector, carries a Glock 20 10mm (affectionately known as his 10mm "camera"). For me, when I pack (oops, I mean "packed"  ) my handgun for protection, it didn't really matter if it was a big heavy SRH, my moderately heavy S&W or a light semi-auto pistol. None of them are really big enough to be much of a burden. Also, I considered it my last resort, for shoving in a bears face at the very last minute. Even a 44 Mag isn't going to do much to a bear without a perfect shot. My alternative was to pack pepper spray, and anyone thats used that very much will likely concur that its truly effective range is pretty much 5 yards and closer...if you get lucky and you don't have a side or head wind! Popping a bear in the face at powder burn range is a lot more appealing to me than using that crap.As I mentioned above (lots of posts back), I live, work and hunt in the highest densities of inland g-bears anywhere in the world (the Flathead Valley, the Elk Valley, the Southern Rockies and Purcells generally, fly in hunts in the Northern Rockies, etc). Most of the time I hunt elk, sheep or muleys I am in the heart of their range. I have had my share of close encounters. I appreciate the dangers, and believe that the level of "preparedness" one takes for a worst case scenario (ie. one's risk aversion) is a very personal decision. I choose to pack a weapon that is practical and effective for my quarry and the physical nature of the hunt, and let the chips fall where they may with the bears. The bears really only factor into my decision making if I KNOW there is a problem bear in the area. But if someone wants to pack a heavy big-bore around on a backpack hunt, that's cool too. I did it early on because thats all I had. I've been spoiled by my light mountain rifle now though, and just love to pack it around. I don't use a sling much in the mountains, and to take two pounds out of your hand feels like taking twenty pounds out of your pack by the end of a long hard day of hiking!Cheers, Canuck | |||
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I spent a fair amount of time in the Flathead River Valley in the early 90's. You are right the bear population there does make a fellow nervous especially knowing that most of them have become conditioned to knowing when they hear a rifle shot that a gut pile is near. One year after a buddy of mine shot an elk and we had packed it out we went back in the same trail several days later there was a mother grizzly and her two cubs hanging around the area. We actually came up on them with one of the not so little cubs walking towards us but it had a 4" thick tree between us. That bear cub just put it's paw onto the tree and smacked it down hard against the ground. It is amazing the power of these animals. I am actually coming out to the Kooteney's in the next couple of weeks and was thinking that I would take a bit of time off to do a little hunting while I'm out there. | |||
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camp gun on the peak of latir mountain (new mexico) was an fn fal, belgian. walking around were 38 supers and ar15s. hunting season was pure 30-06. more aholes than bears up there. | |||
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I for one would feel perfectly safe in Grizzly country with a comfortable, light weight 6.5x55 loaded with 140gr X bullets, or any of the heavier Swifts, North Forks or Partitions. Used by a determained and skillful shooter it would be a lot more effective than any handgun. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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I spent some time in Alaska, bear country. This was ages ago, in the Army. We'd move into a bivouac area -- established military camp-site, and we'd be chasing bears off the site. They'd come out of the hillsides into the valley at the end of the glacier just because that's where the Army had a camp. Where there are troops, there is food. Standard military rifle was the M-14, 7.62 cal. It's a .308 Win. I don't remember the bullet, but probably 150 gr. Ahhhhhhh, but it's a semi-auto (We had full auto too.) and 20 rd. magazine. Push gets into shove, and we had an M-60, 30 cal. machine gun. The point being, .308 Win. was sufficient for bear defense. (We never got cornered.) But we were heavily armed, numbered about 50, and not carrying "legal" hunting rifles, but rather full combat arms. And so generally in the "wilderness" in Alaska and Canada, the 30 cal is the all-around choice. Number one caliber is the 30-06, and for bear some heavy pills, like 200 gr. or more. Magnum rifles are popular -- 300 Win Mag. Weatherby. 45/70 Govt. is favored for big game in North America, but limited in "range." 45/70 is a "brush gun" for Moose, Elk, Caribou, and Bear. But at 70 yds. -- But hey! You're looking for a reason to own a couple more rifles, eh?  | |||
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 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Sorry to say Phil that I just don't agree that the 6.5 is a better bear stopper than a 500 Linebaugh stuffed with a 435@1350fps. That big hard cast slug is going to drill that bear from stem to stern from any angle and pulverize everything in its path, including the heavy shoulder bones. Hell, that is what it was designed to do. Stop big nasty dangerous critters right damned now. As for the packing rifle in bear country...how about one like I purchased from Terry Carr awhile ago...MGA in 375 H&H weighing in at 7lbs scoped and slung with a 24" bbl. shooting a 260 gr. Accubond @2750fps. Powerful and fairly flat shooting. Of course I would have a few 300gr A-Frames along for extra insurance. The same rifle in 338 Win. mag would do nicely too. | |||
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Stopping dangerous game is more about proper bullet placement than power and while I've known a few superb pistol shots I've yet to meet a man with equal experience who was not better with a rifle. And for most of us mere mortals there is no question which one we shoot better - especially under stress. I have no doubt the load you mentioned would be an adequate bear killer but from my experience, and ability with a handgun, I'll still pick a rifle - even a 6.5x55. Now, when we start to talk about rifles, specificially for big bears, your 375 sounds pretty near perfect. Although I have had good experience with Accubonds I too would feel a lot better armed with your 300 Swifts. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Me too. And I have carried various large caliber handguns, and found them to be more of a nuisance than a light, well balanced rifle. Nowadays I carry a much lightened & shortened Sako L61R in .338. Weighs 7 pounds with the iron sights and makes a helluva commotion when it's mad, but it shoots exactly where I look and I love it...  | |||
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Tumbleweed, I disagree with you're handgun thoughts but totally agree with you're choice of a light weight 338 that is an excellent choice for bear stopping round that has the reach of a smaller caliber little non-stopping cartridges. I just returned from a 8 day trip into the Kootenay's here in BC just west of the Flathead River Valley that Canuck frequents. Depending on the terrain I carried either my s/s T/C Contender carbine with a 22" barrel chambered in 45-70 or my Rem 700 in 300RUM. I also had strapped to my hip a s/s Ruger Bisley Vaquero in 45 Colt with 300gr XTP's or 330gr Jae-Bok Young hard cast's. Working as a prospector I also have to carry in a fair amount of equipment to do my job properly. When I am working I have the handgun on my hip but I have to walk/hike into the areas so also carry my hunting rifles during hunting season. When it isn't hunting season I carry my Marlin 1895GS 45-70 and depending on the area/time of year I carry handguns chambered from 10mm to 454 Casull. I'm not saying that a light caliber rifle will not stop a charging bear because it has been done... What I am saying is that you wouldn't catch me depending on a light/small caliber rifle to defend my life. I value my skin to much... | |||
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If you're worried about bears I'd go with the Kimber 8400 in 325. If not, then the Kimber 84 in 7-08. **************** NRA Life Benefactor Member | |||
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You said you have an M96, so I presume that it's a military rifle with the right stuff added. My point being that the rifling is tighter on the military barrel. A couple options that come up is that you can use the origional military hardball ammo. The bullet(a 160gr round-nose) will penetrate, of course, but in a straight line. Bone gets in the way, and those pills zip on their journey. I know that some places frown on hard-ball, but I frown on large fauna ruining my bush-experience. You can also pull the bullets, and pour some of the powder out, and reinstall the bullet. It then doesn't cause quite so much damage to small game, if you choose to use your rifle to add to the pot. You might mark those shells, tho'. The full-bore loads may be the ones to mark, as you'd only need a couple, one in the tube, one in the top of the mag. It's a lot lighter system than carrying a .22 in a pocket. My point is that a rifle you're quite familiar with is better than a bigger bat that you're not. Things have a tendency to go downhill in a hurry, and Murphy says "at the worst possible time." | |||
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One may ask me what I would carry... When I lived in Juneau, I came across an M71 Winchester(mine is a Browning)with a 20" barrel. It snapped to my shoulder so fast that I thought that somebody else was handling it. Next to it was a .375 Sako that a guide had cut off with a hacksaw at 20". I felt real bad about the Sako, but beautiful is, as beautiful does. I bought the Winchester. My only complaint was the difficulty getting ammo. I'm a handloader, but to get the right bullets, I'd have to buy a bunch. I bought the two boxes that were on the shelf, but the dust on them was thick enough to stop me from reading the label. Ya think the .348 isn't a popular cartridge to reload? One popular answer in Alaska is to bebarrel to .450 Alaskan. I'm a full-grown man, But I could lose my sense of humor after a couple boxes shooting at tin cans in the back yard with that! My answer was to rebarrel to .375/348 Ackley. It has a 20" tube, the same as before, but now it'll throw a 300gr Hornady at almost 2300fps! For regular huntin' I carry a cast 300gr flat-nose at from 1200 to 1700fps. It thinks it's a .38/55. Would I recomend it? No. But it's what I use. | |||
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I prefer to carry a handgun when in bear country simply because you cannot always have your rifle in your hands. Also if knocked down your rifle will be worthless, with a handgun you might have a chance. Now I would not go so far as to hunt sheep with a 375 or a 416, but I would not hunt deer on Kodiak Island with a 243 either. What ever rifle I used I would choose a bullet designed with a rear shank that remains intact even if the front of the bullet fragments and breaks apart. Hunting bear is different from a defensive situation, again you will be shooting close, a brain shot is the only one that I feel will guarentee your safety. I would want a bullet that will penetrate the skull. A proper 6,5 through the brain will do the job as good as any. I would prefer the 308WCF as a minimum for me however. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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No bears in Illinois but what the hell, might as well throw in my 2 cents too. Remembering the original premise of bear protection WHILE hunting other game AND the name of this forum, Backpacking, I’ll assume that weight vs. firepower vs. versatility for hoofed game in bear country are the perimeters for consideration. Given these three factors, why not treat yourself to a Remington Model Seven in 300 SAUM, or for a few bucks more, the Titanium 700, or the Kimber Montana when you get settled in your new home? With a Leupold Compact in 2X7 you’d have a nice lightweight set up. I feel your pain in stocking the 300 H&H in anything other than the finest walnut, so I would be more likely to fund a new rifle rather than compromise a classic into something you will always second guess, but that might be your best option if a new rifle is not on your horizon. Whatever you choose, welcome to North America, and thank you for starting one of the more interesting threads I’ve read lately. A lot of excellent advice flow from these pages. | |||
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JohnK007 You have summed up the requirments very well, and thanks for the welcome. Lot of fine advice recieved here from experienced people. I love climbing and backpacking, but dont want to carry an ounce more than I have to...endurance is not the fun it used to be. | |||
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Over the course of my life, I have dealt with many a bear. From the surly Tundra Grizzlies to the over populated black bears of the Western North, and I can tell you that what gets you past a bear is a stout heart more than anything else. But a firearm does help! I would not suggest a rifle of any caliber, take a shotgun son. The Mossberg Mariner is an ideal choice. Nine round tube, short, light, and the option of a pistol grip. Fit her with 000 buck shot and you got yourself a damn fit negociating tool. Don't do like myself and figure the axe in hand is sufficiant. It may get the job done, but guaranteed, not all that blood is the bears. Arctic Gun | |||
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I would thin your heard and get a 325 WSM in a lightweight rifle. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Artic Gun I totally agree A SHOTGUN is perfect for backpacking I have a 20 GA and have both slugs and 00Buck , Not Heavy and will drop any bear in town if needed ? | |||
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lawcop couldn't of said it better as far as back up you can't go wrong carrying a 475 linebaugh handgun with you DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR | |||
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When I hunted Dall sheep with Larry Rivers in the Brooks Range some years back he commented that the .300 Win Mag is to Alaska as the .30-06 is to the Lower 48. A lot of locals up there only have one rifle and that's a good choice. ___________________________________________________________________________________________ | |||
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WHELEN. Packy | |||
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Anyone else pack a whelenator for the mountains? What bullet ? boet | |||
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So this is where the bear defense thread moved off to .....{boet; welcome to the west coast ......I hope you will settle in well,, and depending on what part of B C the , rain ,, or cold won,t bother you .........}} the 6.5x55 with the load 458 Win recomended will kill any bear you will bump into....however it may take a magizine full of bullets to accomplish the task..... If you happened to follow the fueds on the Alaska hunting forum this winter about brown bears and elephants and the ones about the preferential difference between . shotgun ,,,06,,,or 45/70 .. there was alot of info put out....One thing I have never seen on any of these forums , were admissions of wounded and lost animals ....The protection issue has at least 2 parts to it .. # 1 you don,t want to get bit or eaten ,, or stomped to death by a cow moose.. And # 2 if you do have to shoot a bear ,,you really do want to KILL it ...My summer gun is a Ruger Stainless M77mk 2 in 458 win it has a 19.5 " barrel with a muzzel brake...It weighs less than 9 pounds fully loaded ... I have carried it for probably 500 miles , which is Alot in the areas I hunt...The rifle functions flawlessly in my hands and has killed truck loads of game .... Due to not wanting to cause grief locally I am reluctant to talk about peoples experiences . . In the village I live in I know 4 people who have been bit by or knocked around by brown bear..... ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Mental attitude has a tremendous amount to do with succesfully handeling a bear ....Wether you have to kill it or not... ..Over the years my primary hunting rifle has come to be a 416 rem mag... The advice LawCop gives is spot on in my Experience..... People who insist on defending their little rifles usually say more about their lack of phsycal conditioning than what they realize .....and if you have never hunted in a rainforest , which British Columbia has lots of ,, a synthetic stocked rifle looks better and better with each inch of rain that falls............. 9.3x62 is a nice combo rifle Just my humble opinions......And I always carry a handgun also......480 ruger is my prefered but anything is better than nothing.... Have fun.. .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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For bullets I like the super premium stuff ,,lots of Barnes , moly coated....... .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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I have a couple of Kimbers I like for backpacking. Though there are no griz here in CO, if I were in a place I might be concerned about them, I also have a .358 STA that weighs in at 8 1/2 lbs scoped. I have a brake on it so recoil is light, and as has already be mentioned here, if I can't handle the pound or two more it weighs than my Kimbers, I am fooling myself thinking I can pack meat out on my back. | |||
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Mine is a Rem 700 Mountain Rifle (Custom shop) in 7 RM... stainless, kevlar stock and deadly accurate, scoped with a Kahles 3-9x42. Couldn´t be more satisfied !! My second choice is a Win 70 XTR Sporter Magnum in 300 WM - with the same scope (I like Kahles )... just a little heavier than the Remington but also very accurate (its weight, wooden stock and not being stainless are the reasons that make it my second option) ------------------------------------------  Μολὼν λάβε Duc, sequere, aut de via decede. | |||
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I vote for a plastic stocked .375 Ruger. If it weighs a pound or two too much, take out some of that useless extra clothing you are packing around with the rest of your gear. At least you won't have to deal with the "do I have enough gun?" problem. Your problem becomes "Am I taking too much useless stuff with me?". _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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