quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
I see your point, not have to re-zero

Yea I guess it really is not hard to do, but once I get a gun dialed in, I usually stick to that one load, if I need something bigger, I just step up to a bigger calibers.

This my surprise you JWP, but I have been playing with a 357 Mag for deer, I use to kill all my deer with a 357 Mag, as I got older I was able to buy more guns, and bigger guns. But I my just go out next year a play with a 38 Special on some deer. I know we went round and round on this before, but if my shot placement is right on and I use the right bullet, I think I can get the job done.. But I still will keep shots under 35 yards.

I like you used the 357 a lot many year ago and now I am revisiting the 357 and the 38 special. While they are not equall to the big bore revolvers but, with good shot placement and proper loads they will get the job done, just not as much margin of error.

I have no words.......

Another .38 Special convert!

Hi
Along with the 757 I just bought, I picked up some buffalbore 420's, one box at 950 fps, and one box 1350 fps.

What's wrong with the 420's at 950 fps? Do they bounce off deer and hogs????

quote:

Originally posted by GS:What's wrong with the 420's at 950 fps? Do they bounce off deer and hogs????

Why does it matter if you're only punching paper? Those 950 fps loads work well, as do the 1,350s. The 950s are also very pleasant to shoot.......keep us posted.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by GS:What's wrong with the 420's at 950 fps? Do they bounce off deer and hogs????

Why does it matter if you're only punching paper? Those 950 fps loads work well, as do the 1,350s. The 950s are also very pleasant to shoot.......keep us posted.

Prepare for war, pray for piece.

Kind of wondering, because Lee Jurras once said that was his ideal, one gun, one load setup. 420's at 950 fps, good enough for just about everything, and, won't beat you
to death.

For what it's worth, IIRC, John Linebaugh really didn't design these guns to be run as hot as we run em.
The idea was to move up in case capacity, down in pressure, not beat up the gun or shooter, and get more power.

Same idea as the .500 Nitro Express, related to the .458 Win mag, or Lott.

Instead, we end up running them hot and faster then we should...suffering a lot more recoil
then need be, for little ballistic advantage.

If you look at the bottom of the reloading tables, instead of the top, I think you
get a better idea what the cartridges were designed for.

Minimum load for 325 flat points: 4227 27 grains, 1288 fps, and 28K pressure!
H110 31 grains, 1480 fps, 36K pressure.

405's 4227 22 grains 1278 fps and 39.5K pressure
H110 24.5 grains 1301 fps 40K.

I think that's PLENTY.
The minimum H110 load runs about 35 ft lbs of recoil out of an FA as does the 4227 load.

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
For what it's worth, IIRC, John Linebaugh really didn't design these guns to be run as hot as we run em.
The idea was to move up in case capacity, down in pressure, not beat up the gun or shooter, and get more power.

Same idea as the .500 Nitro Express, related to the .458 Win mag, or Lott.

Instead, we end up running them hot and faster then we should...suffering a lot more recoil
then need be, for little ballistic advantage.

If you look at the bottom of the reloading tables, instead of the top, I think you
get a better idea what the cartridges were designed for.

Minimum load for 325 flat points: 4227 27 grains, 1288 fps, and 28K pressure!
H110 31 grains, 1480 fps, 36K pressure.

405's 4227 22 grains 1278 fps and 39.5K pressure
H110 24.5 grains 1301 fps 40K.

I think that's PLENTY.
The minimum H110 load runs about 35 ft lbs of recoil out of an FA as does the 4227 load.

Actually, this really isn't true. John Linebaugh became a proponent of moderate velocities much later on. His loads for the .475 often exceeded 1,400 fps with a 420 grain bullet and in the case of the .500 Linebaugh, it was 450 grain bullets (if I can recall correctly), at more than 1,300 fps. There was nothing moderate about the Linebaugh cartridges really. Go look at the Linebaugh Seminar notes from the early days and all of the loads and velocities were maximum.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
For what it's worth, IIRC, John Linebaugh really didn't design these guns to be run as hot as we run em.
The idea was to move up in case capacity, down in pressure, not beat up the gun or shooter, and get more power.

Same idea as the .500 Nitro Express, related to the .458 Win mag, or Lott.

Instead, we end up running them hot and faster then we should...suffering a lot more recoil
then need be, for little ballistic advantage.

If you look at the bottom of the reloading tables, instead of the top, I think you
get a better idea what the cartridges were designed for.

Minimum load for 325 flat points: 4227 27 grains, 1288 fps, and 28K pressure!
H110 31 grains, 1480 fps, 36K pressure.

405's 4227 22 grains 1278 fps and 39.5K pressure
H110 24.5 grains 1301 fps 40K.

I think that's PLENTY.
The minimum H110 load runs about 35 ft lbs of recoil out of an FA as does the 4227 load.

Actually, this really isn't true. John Linebaugh became a proponent of moderate velocities much later on. His loads for the .475 often exceeded 1,400 fps with a 420 grain bullet and in the case of the .500 Linebaugh, it was 450 grain bullets (if I can recall correctly), at more than 1,300 fps. There was nothing moderate about the Linebaugh cartridges really. Go look at the Linebaugh Seminar notes from the early days and all of the loads and velocities were maximum.

There is the press release, designed to sell guns:



This is John L talking about bullets, and his deer hunting:



bigger game notes:



Also remember Tom has hunted with Otto Candies a LOT.

Here is a note from Linebaugh, with his comments written on the left:



He never told me to use maximum loads in the 45 Colt. Good reason: the gun would go out of time with
either high pressure loads, or heavy bullets.

We were talking about his cartridges, the .475 and .500 Linebaughs -- note the high velocities......

Been a .44 Mag fan/user since I bought my first. Love the power and accuracy, plus you can use Specials for practice. I have noticed that my .44 Mag factory loads will not shoot through both sides of a new 55-gallon drum, while a .41 Mag WILL. Does the extra 2 caliber REALLY make THAT much difference in penetration? Seems like. As for range? I'd say the furthest range you can hit a popcan is the Maximum Range for that gun/cartridge, and YOU.
Unfortunately, .41 Mag ammo is OUTRAGEOUS, Price-wise.
KY Jim

What kind of 44 factory loads? We've put out empty 55-gallon plastic farm herbicide drums at 100 yds and drilled them thru both sides with a number of factory loads including Rem (the '70s high velocity), Hornady and C-B. We tried "cowboy" magnum commercial re-loads and specials, and I think what I remember was that they penetrated one side and only dented the back side. A hi powered one that creased the side ripped the side open. A lower power round that hit the side, dented it and bounced off. I haven't tried this experiment with modern Rem or with Win or Black Hills ammo.

Specials are convenient to shoot in 44 magnums, except for two things. They won't shoot to the same point of aim. They shoot higher, sometimes a LOT higher and never to the same windage. And who wants to go to the trouble to adjust the sights back and forth between mags and specials. Secondly, most specials are lead bullets which create lots of fouling. My gunsmith told me jokingly there was enough lead fouling in my SBH to load a whole box of .38 specials.

I use C-B in .41 mag. Yes, it's expensive but as far as I can tell well worth it for hunting. At one time there was a major factory reduced load offered for it for target shooting (like specials in a magnum), but not now. Unlike the 44 magnum and the 357, there was not another cartridge interchangeable with the 41 mag (the 41LC isn't interchangeable). I used to wish something like that was available, but honesty I don't believe the recoil in .41 is enough to worry about it.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
We were talking about his cartridges, the .475 and .500 Linebaughs -- note the high velocities......

Yes, from his press releases, that would appear to be true.

His hand written comments to me suggested the idea is low to medium pressure, heavy bullets, moderate velocity. That said,
you'll notice he doesn't shoot car sized animals much.

It would also appear that 450's were all he had in mind for the .500, and, that JWP has discovered something after the fact that the original designer didn't have in mind. Happened before, and will happen again...

You'll also notice that most of Linebaugh's postings are about OTHER PEOPLE's hunting experiences. I guess since he never did it himself, we should discount all of these comments...

quote:

Originally posted by GS:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
We were talking about his cartridges, the .475 and .500 Linebaughs -- note the high velocities......

Yes, from his press releases, that would appear to be true.

His hand written comments to me suggested the idea is low to medium pressure, heavy bullets, moderate velocity. That said,
you'll notice he doesn't shoot car sized animals much.

It would also appear that 450's were all he had in mind for the .500, and, that JWP has discovered something after the fact that the original designer didn't have in mind. Happened before, and will happen again...

You'll also notice that most of Linebaugh's postings are about OTHER PEOPLE's hunting experiences. I guess since he never did it himself, we should discount all of these comments...

I had a 475 in the hunting fields in 1988 and yes a 420 grain bullet at 1400 FPS was the targeted speed. Before pressure testing the 475 Mr. Linebaugh estimated the pressure to in the low 40's we now that the pressure for top loads are in the high 40's to low 50's. The 500 was thought to be in the the mid 30's, but proved to be in the low 40's. For many years the 240 grain was considered to be a heavy wieght in the 44 mag, but is no longer as we have learned over the years that bullets in the 300 grain class work very in the 44.

Bullet wieght is not the only consideration in penetration, bullet shape anose profile are also key. We have also learned that 1200 FPS works extremely well in the hunting fields and that the added speed gainslittle in peformance yet increases recoil greatly. Even th50 Alaskan at nearly 1600 FPS with a 525 grain WLFN didnot penetrate any deeper than did the 500 Linebaugh with the same bullet at 1100 FPS in Jackson. IMHO one would be hard pressed to tell the difference betn the 480 & 475 in the hunting field with both loade with heavy hard cast bullets

I can tell you that I wouldn't run my .475 as fast as I do if it wasn't so accurate and if wasn't so familiar with tht particular load. But why fix it if it "ain't broke?"

quote:

Bullet wieght is not the only consideration in penetration, bullet shape anose profile are also key. We have also learned that 1200 FPS works extremely well in the hunting fields and that the added speed gainslittle in peformance yet increases recoil greatly. Even th50 Alaskan at nearly 1600 FPS with a 525 grain WLFN didnot penetrate any deeper than did the 500 Linebaugh with the same bullet at 1100 FPS in Jackson. IMHO one would be hard pressed to tell the difference betn the 480 & 475 in the hunting field with both loade with heavy hard cast bullets

John L. used to say the handguns were punch presses. I think Fackler might disagree with just one factor in wounding. Velocity, with cast bullets, as we've shown, and bone, increases deformation on
the frontal area of the bullet. This increases wound channel diameter, but, may shorten it's length, and, may decrease the bullets overall speed through the target medium.

In other words, if the bullet slows down, you get a cone wound channel, if the bullet maintains most of it's speed through the target, you get a cylinder shaped wound channel.

This is why I think these handguns with non-expanding bullets kill so well. They hit, maintain their speed, and cut a large cylinder out of the target. Also, from
Fackler's writings, 1200-1300 fps does create a temporary wound channel on impact as well. He had particular reverence for a Swiss rifle round that was 300 grains, soft lead,
and was going 1300 fps in .41 caliber, IIRC. This round, common around the 18-19th century was supposed to be REALLY devastating on opposing troops. The combination of bullet expansion, velocity,
and bullet weight made the bullet hit the target HARD, read excellent temporary wound channel, and, the bullet would expand quickly, due to the impact velocity. It's weight would keep
it going through the target at a decent velocity, resulting in, on humans anyway, a cylinder like wound channel, all the way through.

I realize others hunt BIG hogs, bison, etc., where the only thing really important is the bullet penetrating straight and true, so it gets to the vital organs you need to stop the animal.

I was bringing this up because these rounds, from almost all accounts, really do seem to stop things in a way reserved for 375 H&H and up rifles.

That said, if I'm going to use VERY heavy for caliber bullets, I would use the bullet weight to drive either a cast, soft hollowpoint, or, a Hawk, thin jacketed hollow point through the target, with the heavy
for caliber bullet weight.

That does not mean that I don't think 300-500 grain hard cast bullets don't have their applications, and, that finding a velocity that they function well at. If I was shooting something with large teeth, horns, or paws I would be giving consideration to punch bullets, or some sort of very thickly jacketed rifle bullet in these calibers. Bullet deformation on large animals, or, for that matter bullets cast too hard, that
blow up when pushed in the 1200-1800 fps range have been a problem.

One can certainly argue that the .375 bullet, in 200-300 grains, from 1200 fps up, with a suitable solid, has the potential to take every game animal on the planet, due to penetration. These parameters also
don't beat up the shooter.

There is more then one way to make stuff work for you...

Merry Christmas

GS

Anyway,

Merry Christmas all

Shack, I was shooting into a STEEL drum. Was making a incinerator barrel out of it. .44's/.41's make good draft/drainage holes around the bottom. Well, .41's do, anyway. 240gr JHP's in the .44, 210gr JHP's(IIRC) in the .41.
KY Jim
P.S. Plastic drums too Precious, good for kero and diesel storage, hauling water, etc.

Jim, I thought about saving the plastic drums for water too, but even if cleaned up they still had herbicide in them...we do use them however to mark where to enter the woods to find the stands. Anyway, 240 is the classic traditional bullet in 44 as is 210 in 41. The both are all the bullet I need, but then deer is all I use them for.

If you're not a handloader I'd suggest in 44 trying a box of Hornady's 240 XTP JHP. There're 1350 fps and about 1K ft lbs. I've taken several deer with them and they perform real well. They are hotter than Rem or Win but not as hot as C-B (theirs is more like 1450). Recoil isn't bad. Then you'll be ready to make your position clear with that drum..

IME 210's in the 41 mag outpenetrate 240's in the 44 mag

Oh, Yeah, I got the XTP's when they first came out, and they are my Reload bullet. When I can FIND them. Everybody ELSE loves them, too.
KY Jim

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/F...ts_of_small_arms.pdf

Vettrelli, first diagram... About the same stuff we shoot with soft bullets and handguns now, and, about the same velocity.

"...Creates the same temporary cavity as the current 5.56mm..."