quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Pretty hard when some are so hard headed.
When I have a problem with any gun and report it no on will say a word until I say FREEDOM! Now ask why that is?
When I talk about problems with the .454 someone always says they get 1" at 100 all the time but won't show proof. When I say a .38 wad cutter needs to be hard, someone will say the gun shot bulls eyes for years with soft lead.
Well I shot pigeons with a slingshot at 100 yards when I was young too. I hunted rabbits with a slingshot and bow for years and never came out with less then 16 rabbits a day. I also killed many with a blowgun. I shot pheasants out of the air with a bow. I even killed several pheasants with a golf club thrown at them. I never found a better use for a golf club! I can't prove a word of it unless you ask friends.
But today, with the internet and a camera, proof can be shown yet everyone hides.
I show everything and if anyone wants to dispute my findings, don't sit behind the keyboard. I am sure everyone has a camera.
Don't worry, Obamacare will not cost you a dime!
How about everyone take a very close look at my pictures and then say sunspots were the problem!
Here is a statement from a good IHMSA shooter. He has a good gun because I have done this with others with zero results. Just how many of you follow a good loading practice? I need none of this with a Ruger or BFR.
Larry Harris of West Liberty, OH won the revolver category. He comments that the load process for his FA353 is the most complicated of any silhouette gun he owns. He describes his loading process: “I neck size 357 Rem. Brass to just above the level where the bullet base will be when it’s seated using a very long decapping rod from a .308 Win. die in my Redding sizer die. Case mouth flaring is normally done after brushing out powder residue buildup in the bullet seating area. I use CCI400 primers followed by 12.5 gr. of VihtaVouri N-110. Speer 200 gr TMJ silhouette bullets are seated to the middle of the cannelure in one step and then crimped with a Profile crimp die from Redding in a separate step. A medium crimp is used.”

Yes, and you most likely killed large bears with lightening bolts from your arse too; but what does that have to do with your vendetta against FAs?

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:Yes, and you most likely killed large bears with lightening bolts from your arse too

Would this ability make a revolver obsolete for protection in the woods? How would one develop loads for arse lightening bolts? Lastly, are arse lightening bolts legal to open carry? What about concealed?

While most try to keep those concealed; he's been shining his on the forum a good bit lately.

FFS, gentlemen i am very appriciative about the advice you all have given me, and i am sure that others will be abel to read this tread and get something out of it, could we please make sure that it is not another FA vs. BFR. i allready stated in the start of the tread that i would buy a Freedom arms revolver, and nothing else.

BFRshooter i am sure that you mean well, but in my line of work i see quite a few guns where the rifeling is allmost gone except the last 3-5 inches of the barrels, these guns still shoot exellent groups with kynoch ammo, i too got hung up in those little details like worn forching cones etc. when i were younger, but eventually realised that most times good enough is good enough, and you can actually work a gun to death when you should have stopped halfway instead.

best

peter

quote:

Yes, and you most likely killed large bears with lightening bolts from your arse too

Pictures, unless I see pictures I won't believe this.
MS I am glad that you spelled "arse" correctly. The Americanized version "ass" just has no class.
peterdk, how about educating us on handgun and hunting laws in Denmark? I just don't think of Denmark as being a hotbed of hunting!
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
He mentioned it was the most complicated gun he ever loaded for.
It just will not shoot anything. They can be very, very load specific

The FA out shot every one else to win the Championship. Your selling but, no one is buying

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
peterdk, how about educating us on handgun and hunting laws in Denmark? I just don't think of Denmark as being a hotbed of hunting!
Peter.

peter

handgun hunting in denmark is a no no, i have to travel to other places to do that. other than that we truly are a hotbed of hunting, we have a hunting season around 9 months of the year, no bag limits etc.

the bad part (for some)is that most of this is on private land, so if you cant pay, you have to resort to birding at the costlines(which we have plenty of)

normal hunting spieces are:

red stag
fallow deer
sika deer
roe deer(lots of those)
fox and hare

woodcock
pheasant
partrigde
snipe
a shit load of ducks and geese

best

peter

Thanks Peter! I didn't think they would let you hunt with a handgun!
Peter.

quote:

Posted 13 August 2010 04:13 Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by bfrshooter:
He mentioned it was the most complicated gun he ever loaded for.
It just will not shoot anything. They can be very, very load specific



The FA out shot every one else to win the Championship. Your selling but, no one is buying

John, I was repeating the man's words. I was able to out shoot many other revolvers with a Ruger and that included Freedoms and Dan Wessons. I spent many years in IHMSA and seen it all. A great Freedom and a scud, a great Dan Wesson and a scud, not a single S&W that placed because of being grip sensitive. Never seen a Colt. Virginia Dragoons all over the place from great to scuds.
My invite is always open so come up and let us shoot 100 to 200 yards. I will do better with my BFR's and when you shoot mine, so will you.
I think I will see your guns on Gun Broker cheap.
All a Freedom needs is a bore the right size, cylinder throats the right size and some play in the cylinder. Don't you think it is strange that every one I have measured has an over size bore and throats too small? OK for jacketed but forget cast. They are like a .45 Ruger with perfect bores and small throats. A .452" bore and .449" throats is just plain crazy.
I did NOT fool with your gun when we had but I would really like to know the measurements. What is exact groove size and throat size?
There is a time when you just have to stop defending things that look nice and cost double any other gun.
How about I shoot my Ruger against you? Would a 200 yard group scare you off?

How about a can shot twice at 100 and once at 200 with BFR's?

Let it go, Jim.....

You know that gun shoots. jwp shot a great group with factory ammo at 75 yards recently, so what is the controversy? We had a bad batch of ammo that precluded any accuracy testing and that is not enough to draw any conclusions about any gun whatsoever. I really hate painting with broad brush strokes as I can point to bad examples of every revolver type from every manufactuer -- that is a fact.

No amount of vitriol will change the minds of happy FA owners.

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
could we please make sure that it is not another FA vs. BFR. i allready stated in the start of the tread that i would buy a Freedom arms revolver, and nothing else.

which part of this is hard to understand, english is my second language, and even i understand this....

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
[QUOTE]Posted 13 August 2010 04:13 Hide Post
How about I shoot my Ruger against you? Would a 200 yard group scare you off?

how about i or several of the others outstalk you and use the guns at real hunting distances with inn 50 yards, instead of sitting on our arse's in a blind sniping at unsporting distances with a ransom rest to hold your gun for you.....

if you dont have anything constructive to add to this tread could you please stop posting on this particular tread. you might even be a decent gunsmith, but i allready stated that fit and finish is very importent to me, which means the BRF is out, and i must admit that your crusade against FA would put me off any advice you might have, because of the nasty tone that you use to deliver your message.

shit i might even buy 2 for the fun of it.

peter

John, Ruger's have failings, Dan Wesson was REALLY bad, S&W's have had bad guns, Colt has had bad guns.
Freedom ALSO has had bad guns. Some custom makers have had bad guns. Remington, Winchester and many others do too. I had a Savage 110 here with the barrel screwed in crooked so a scope setting needed shimmed, yet it shot 1/2" at 100.
I once shot a 5 shot 1/4" group at 350 yards with my .220 swift varmint rifle and shot chucks in the eye at over 600 yards with the rifle. My .222 would do 1/2" at 250 yards. I have been a gunsmith working on accuracy longer then most here have been alive. I know revolvers! I also know bows and worked out the broadhead tuning method along with designing the lighted bow sight.
If a revolver will not shoot, there is something wrong with it, I will tell you what is wrong and if it can't be fixed, sell the gun. Sell it to someone that just likes noise. I will not keep any revolver that will not do 1" at 50 yards. Most do much less and it is only the nut behind the gun that is the limit.
Don't post one lucky group, post average groups.
When I shot production or unlimited IHMSA international class, the deal was to get rid of the 40 targets and win with the shoot off targets. My XP 100 would do 1-1/2" at 150 meters with open sights. I still have the MOA 7BR and the Wichita 7R. I shot 5 shots into 3/8" at 100 meters with the MOA when working loads. The 7R could hit a 1-1/2" X 1-1/2" steel swinger at 150 meters all day. I shot tiny targets at 300 meters for fun. I shoot revolvers to 500 meters and do better then most do at 25 yards because I make the revolver shoot.
Here are some groups. Notice the 5 shots in 3/8" at 100 meters with the MOA, it is circled. The others are 100 and 200 METERS.
I have forgotten more then all of you know. My eyesight now sucks.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop the madness!!!!!!!!!

Now that I've gotten that out of my system, can we all just agree to disagree?? Jim, you don't have to own a FA83, and Peter, you don't have to own a BFR. Agreed??

Really, this is a bit silly if you ask me.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I have forgotten more then all of you know. My eyesight now sucks.

actually i think it is your reading comprehension and personality that is to blame.

quote:

Really, this is a bit silly if you ask me.

withworth you are right, sorry about that, i work in a field where fit and especially finish is the be all and end all of the job, and to hear how easy it is to do that and it will only cost 200$ to do it, is just ticking me in all the wrong spots, making a gun shoot good is not all that hard but making it look good and shoot at the same time is actually a bit of a learning curve, apparently not all have mastered this, or they wouldent speak so lightly about it.

best

peter

quote:

Posted 13 August 2010 20:45 Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by peterdk:
could we please make sure that it is not another FA vs. BFR. i allready stated in the start of the tread that i would buy a Freedom arms revolver, and nothing else.


which part of this is hard to understand, english is my second language, and even i understand this....

quote:
Originally posted by bfrshooter:
[QUOTE]Posted 13 August 2010 04:13 Hide Post
How about I shoot my Ruger against you? Would a 200 yard group scare you off?



how about i or several of the others outstalk you and use the guns at real hunting distances with inn 50 yards, instead of sitting on our arse's in a blind sniping at unsporting distances with a ransom rest to hold your gun for you.....

if you dont have anything constructive to add to this tread could you please stop posting on this particular tread. you might even be a decent gunsmith, but i allready stated that fit and finish is very importent to me, which means the BRF is out, and i must admit that your crusade against FA would put me off any advice you might have, because of the nasty tone that you use to deliver your message.

My tone is never nasty. It is only based on fact. This is where we come to problems. I ONLY post facts. You say it is nasty but when have I ever been nasty?
My posts about Freedom are no different then when Ruger does something wrong. If fit and finish is more important then performance to you I have nothing more to say. I prefer a gun to shoot the way I want it to.
By the way, all of my deer and also Whitworth's deer are shot off hand from the ground or from an open tree stand, never from a blind. We have NO rests

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
My tone is never nasty. It is only based on fact. This is where we come to problems. I ONLY post facts. You say it is nasty but when have I ever been nasty?

sorry but i dont see your posts as facts, but only subjective observations, which might make them facts in your book, but certaintly not in mine.

quote:

My posts about Freedom are no different then when Ruger does something wrong. If fit and finish is more important then performance to you I have nothing more to say. I prefer a gun to shoot the way I want it to.

this part just takes us back to the part about your reading comprehension, i will spell it out for you again, fit and finish is as importent as shooting abillity, one is a fairly straight forward job but combined it is art.

quote:

By the way, all of my deer and also Whitworth's deer are shot off hand from the ground or from an open tree stand, never from a blind. We have NO rests

i might belive that about withworth.

peter

Peter, what he says about his shooting is absolutely true. I'm not bad, but he can shoot circles around me.

Gentlemen (I use that term loosely!), let us agree to disagree. To each his own!

quote:

this part just takes us back to the part about your reading comprehension, i will spell it out for you again, fit and finish is as importent as shooting abillity, one is a fairly straight forward job but combined it is art

Art is a gun that shoots as well as it looks. You can engrave $100,000 worth of work on a gun that throws shots all over the country. A plain Jane hunk of steel that packs shots in one place has more value. So does one that never fails to function.
How many poor men have been raked over the coals by beautiful women?

well, i've had no probs taking deer at 200m with my FA, (iron sights) perhaps i had the best 3 FA ever made but i disagree all you posts are facts. it is a fact you couldn't shoot jwp's gun, it's a fact it shot well for him and he shoots it well. not a fact IT doesn't shoot.

that said, fit and finish on the custom shop bfr's is quite good imho. i was impressed with my son's bfr 454 casull and my 475 was a great pistol. one anyone would be happy to own. far far above ruger SA.

This was the original post:



Posted 06 August 2010 15:02
hi guy's

i have desided to get another wheel gun, and since i am very much into fit and finish, i want a freedom arms, what i am not so sure of is what caliber to get.

so far my expirence have been with my ruger bisley 357 mag which i shoot reasonly well out to 110yards or so with 180 grains bullets.

the gun will be with me in europe and africa where it is allowed, but what caliber would you reccomend 454 or the 475 or what.

i am not recoil shy and can and do reload my own ammo.

what would you reccomend ?

best

peter

Note: "I want a Freedom Arms".
Note: "i am very much into fit and finish"
Why is this so hard?
Peter

Back to the Topic .After reading the opinions here for quite a while,I bought a BFR in 475 and mounted a Red dot scope.It has not disappointed me .I have only shot a FA a few times,not enough for a opinion.

OL, full house loads in my FA are pretty stiff. I am toying with the idea of getting new grips. How are they in the BFR?

"only shot a FA a few times,not enough for a opinion."
Obviously you must be an internet newbie!!! This should make you an expert!
Peter.

OK, I'm sorry. . . but. . . . . . . . . . . . .

and............back to the original question. i have greatly preferred my 454. more loading variations, better bullet availability, better trajectory and up to 400 grain bullets also. everything has been killed well and killed over and over with the 454. nothing one will kill the other won't. if you just want hardcasts then it's a tossup but the performance of the barnes at so many velocities out of the 454's and the performance of the corbon penetrators is just awesome. i've had both as have others, i've just had a slightly diff perspective.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:

quote:

this part just takes us back to the part about your reading comprehension, i will spell it out for you again, fit and finish is as importent as shooting abillity, one is a fairly straight forward job but combined it is art

Art is a gun that shoots as well as it looks. You can engrave $100,000 worth of work on a gun that throws shots all over the country. A plain Jane hunk of steel that packs shots in one place has more value. So does one that never fails to function.
How many poor men have been raked over the coals by beautiful women?

Ah, but FA's have it all looks fit and finnish and great accuracy too boot.

quote:

There is a time when you just have to stop defending things that look nice and cost double any other gun.
How about I shoot my Ruger against you? Would a 200 yard group scare you off?

I have no problems with FA'a nor do most people. I shot a decent group (no bench, just sitting on the ground at 75 yards) with that revolver before I sent it to Whitworth to test.




Faulty ammo was shot in that revolver and then YOU claimed that it shoots shotgun pattersn, You are full of BS IMHO. You also claim that neck tension is critical for accuracy and then in the next sentence you claim to have rloaded the smae cases 30 times without a problem, well BS. Each time a case is fired and reloaded it work hardens and the hardness changes alone would create different neck tension and wouold BE A PROBLEM. If it is one of your favorites then their is no wrong if you do not like it for any reason then it is bad with out supporting facts.

You claim that 45 Colt brass is inaccurate out of a 454 well BS again. If one loads to the same over all lenght then thier is no difference at all. Just more BS for you

quote:

Posted 14 August 2010 00:40 Hide Post
well, i've had no probs taking deer at 200m with my FA, (iron sights) perhaps i had the best 3 FA ever made but i disagree all you posts are facts. it is a fact you couldn't shoot jwp's gun, it's a fact it shot well for him and he shoots it well. not a fact IT doesn't shoot.

No, you are wrong, it is not that we could not shoot the gun. It was the factory loads we were testing. JWP did not sent his ammo for us.
I do not doubt him in the least. What is important is that if a load pulls a bullet .010" and locks the gun, stay the heck out of bear country.
There are many things WRONG with the .454 caliber itself and unless you load your own and know what to do or buy ammo, stay clear of it without thorough testing first.
Darn funny an 83 in .475 does not have boolit pull problems.
I will tell you the truth, I would not buy a BFR in .454 either.

well, first it was the gun, i guess now it's the ammo. there's nothing wrong with the 454 per se. some ammo companies push the envelope quite far. i've never had issue with buffalo bore ammo, nor any hornady jacketed, any of the various xbp loads and i've loaded enough of my own to know what is needed for the bullets not to pull crimp. i've got handloads that run over 1800 fps 340 grain hardcast loads that don't have any bullet pull.

then, first it's the FA with the short cylinder that you would never take on a dangerous game hunt, then you admit that you never had any problems with a 475 FA83. well, sounds like there's no reason not to take one and would you retract that statement now?

i love rugers, i love bfr's and i love FA. i love customs as well. i love all the big bores from .44 mag to the .500's and i'm not partial to any but sooooo many of us have excellent accuracy with them, look at the latest 2009 world competitions, how many of the revolvers were FA that placed? that alone answers the question. i don't think you should jump up and shout that the original posters choice is poor b/c of your grudge against FA. he wants a FA as do so many and i wouldn't disuade him in that and you do jump in to do that whenever possible.


the reason i stuck with the .454 is when i have shot various courses in the west with unknown distances i hit more frequently with my 454 and as it'll kill the same as the .475 it's what i felt was better, sure i could hit nearly as well with a .475 at KNOWN distances as i knew my loadings and drops well, but when i shoot unknown distances and we time it where you got a few seconds to shoot once the target is sighted simulating game that would be walking through or standing in a clearing giving limited time to assess the target before it could move or disappear the velocity (which is such a dirty word here) helped place hits with slightly more frequency. this was observed by several shooting friends and almost all decided on a 454 versus a 475 in that scenario. we all load with great accuracy and are limited by our own skill level. with a scope and rest we have no problem with accuracy and while i'm certainly not as good a shot as you i've shot much better with any of 3 brands of 454 than the targets you posted with jwp's gun. he shot much better as well, originally it was the gun and caliber now it's the ammo.


soooo the ruger srh and bfr have longer cylinders than the FA?

Sorry but it is true, the Freedoms have such short cylinders that a tiny boolit movement will render them out of service so it is BOTH problems combined.
I do not have boolit pull issues with my loads but how in the world do you know if a piece of brass is going to hold one in?
I would rather have some leeway. THE GUN NEEDS A LONGER CYLINDER but Freedom seems to think less boolit jump to the forcing cone is more important.
Take a close look at a Lee 400 gr boolit in a .475 Freedom cylinder. It is RIGHT AT THE END. I can keep it in place but can your loading process do it?
Just why can't any .454 hold in factory loads and allow room for boolit movement. Freedom is still the worst. They think every caliber made only needs the little cylinders.
Why have all bullet makers been forced to seat bullets deeper with shorter noses? FREEDOM, that's why!
All it takes is another .020" or a little more.

A slightly longer cylinder does not mean that a bullet will not pull and tie the gun up on the first shot. Bullet pulling is an ammo issue pure and simple and not a revolver issue

The ammo even pulled and tied up a SRH 454 and the double action recoil impulse is less likely to pull bullets IMW than a single action.

BAD AMMO IS NOT A GUN RELATED PROBLEM

OK, don't intent to ruffle any feathers here, but can't stay quite any longer on this subject.
Ahhhh, what about having the crimp groove on the bullet moved .02 forward to get the extra room. . . . . .
In both of my old FAs I have the bullet moulds made to my specs and never had a problem with the heavy 340 grainers loaded hot. Never had it lock up either guns. Even made and shot a few 400 gr. LBTs out of them, still no pulling.
Of course IF the FA had a longer cylinder, we could then have the groove moved back, seat the bullet less, add more powder. . . . but then we would be chasing our tails. This whole issue is a loading problem. I would create my own room for error starting with the correct crimp groove location. Of course if my bullets were pulling from firing, then the loads are incorrect. Not enough neck tension on the bullet for it's weight and powder charge, and incorrect crimp into inadequate crimp groove depth. We may not have control on cylinder length, but we do have control on our loading technics.
One issue could also be the use of an extremely soft, wet home made lube. They over lube the sides of the bullet outside the lube grooves during loading, reducing bullet pull tension. I have had this problem before years ago in a .45 Colt, with a supersoft, liquid lube I made up myself. I switched to 'Apache Blue' and LBT lubes and problem went away.
This is not a cylinder problem, it's a neck tension issue.
That's all I will say about that.

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
OK, don't intent to ruffle any feathers here, but can't stay quite any longer on this subject.
Ahhhh, what about having the crimp groove on the bullet moved .02 forward to get the extra room. . . . . .
In both of my old FAs I have the bullet moulds made to my specs and never had a problem with the heavy 340 grainers loaded hot. Never had it lock up either guns. Even made and shot a few 400 gr. LBTs out of them, still no pulling.
Of course IF the FA had a longer cylinder, we could then have the groove moved back, seat the bullet less, add more powder. . . . but then we would be chasing our tails. This whole issue is a loading problem. I would create my own room for error starting with the correct crimp groove location. Of course if my bullets were pulling from firing, then the loads are incorrect. Not enough neck tension on the bullet for it's weight and powder charge, and incorrect crimp into inadequate crimp groove depth. We may not have control on cylinder length, but we do have control on our loading technics.
One issue could also be the use of an extremely soft, wet home made lube. They over lube the sides of the bullet outside the lube grooves during loading, reducing bullet pull tension. I have had this problem before years ago in a .45 Colt, with a supersoft, liquid lube I made up myself. I switched to 'Apache Blue' and LBT lubes and problem went away.
This is not a cylinder problem, it's a neck tension issue.
That's all I will say about that.

Spot on as usual......

Ya, in my best Elvis voice. . .
Thank you. . . . Thank you very muchhhh. . . .

quote:

Posted 15 August 2010 19:52 Hide Post
Ya, in my best Elvis voice. . .
Thank you. . . . Thank you very muchhhh. . . .

Very close to real and well said.
BUT, why can I use soft, sticky Felix lube with tons of it all over the boolit without a loss of case tension?.
Why does my lube shoot half size groups then any other?.
Why do clean boolits with a hard lube only in the grooves pull out of the brass?
You are not answering the question or solving the trouble. If you think the lube alone is doing the job, you are wrong.

I have yet to see where the problem, much less the "scandal" causing bfr so much heartburn regarding cutting bullet moulds for the FA revolvers lies. Let's be adults about this whole thing. Apparently there is a large enough market or else the mould makers and bullet casters wouldn't be producing at the level they are. Try and think about it before spewing any opinions and trying to pass them off as fact.

Well MS, if you load proper you will be in good shape and lube or the boolit will have no effect. Any gun will work fine.
Step out of line and the Freedom will fail first, then all the rest.
Just how many REALLY know how to load ammunition?

quote:

Step out of line and the Freedom will fail first, then all the rest.

And the proof of this is?????

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Well MS, if you load proper you will be in good shape and lube or the boolit will have no effect. Any gun will work fine.
Step out of line and the Freedom will fail first, then all the rest.
Just how many REALLY know how to load ammunition?

What exactly does that mean? I don't get it. Obviously you have decided you don't like FAs because of certain features, but that doesn't mean they are crap. Lots of folks love them and use them with much success. I think your hatred is getting in the way of objectivity. No insult meant.

BFR, I am so tired of your drivel it isn't funny. You are convinced no one else in the world is as smart as you are about the following things:

gunsmithing
handloading
bullet design
revolver shooting
revolver design
bullet lubes
barrel alignment

Need I go on? In your own opinion, you know more than the collective rest of us. I quote you from a previous post:

"I have forgotten more than the rest of you know."

You pompous ass. Every one of us is wrong, and you are right.

You make me tired.