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You make a very valid point, Shack. That .50 AK is not a bear protection gun but more or less an exercise in excess. It's a novelty and would have to be downloaded to make it viable and useable. Plus, it's just too big for that purpose. My .500 Linebaugh SRH on the otherhand...... In the event of a bear attack, you will probably only have time for one shot, so it needs to count. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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One needs a round that will put the smack down on a big bear my minimum is the 45 Colt with 325 grain LFN hard cast at 1300 FPS or so a 475 or 500 is even better   _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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That's also the beauty of the .500 Maximum, if you are fairly sane. I suspect 525's at 1100-1200 fps are going to punch a BIG hole, and, I'd maybe gas check em, and use pure lead for what I'd shoot, if need be. I wonder what kind of penetration you get with 525 pure lead bullets on hogs? Guy I sold my Seville too is a rancher in Texas. He's sold on the .505 Gibbs for hogs. Says the softpoints make a BIG hole, actually TWO big holes. Same idea... Also, for some reason, he's never had one run with even fair shots... | |||
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Yup, someone beat me to it. HHI812 had one, and I fired one cylinder load full of mag loads out of it. It was the most painful handgun I have ever fired. I did fire a 4 5/8" blackhawk 500 linebaugh with stiff 440 gr loads and while it was a gun that you had to pay attention to so as not to plant the front sight in your forehead, it wasn't as painful as the 357 mag scandium. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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I guess that my 41 MAG Scandia is going to kick like a mule then _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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It better, it weighs next to nothing! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Actually, depends on the load. I have a Smith 357 PD (.41 Scandi) and when I worked up my load I had one specific intent: Develop the maximum possible load which permits 6 rounds accurately fired. I won't have time to reload - so six is all I need. That load is a 265 gr. Beartooth bullet over 15.5gr of 2400 gave me all the recoil I wanted for 6 rounds. Never did chrono the load, but the cases fall out of the cylinder. 16.0gr. gave just the slightest amount of "slow extraction" so I backed off 1/2 a grain and called it good. 210gr. JHP and 20.5gr of H110 freakin HURT though. 310gr. of Sureshot bullet at 1,250fps in my Smith 629 PC Light Hunter is quite snappy. You definitely feel it, but I'm good for 24 rounds. And to those who said full house .357 mag in a 12 oz airweight? Yeah, I managed 3 rounds downrange and unloaded it. That is one painful gun. Most powerful I've ever fired is a Contender pistol in 45-70 with Buffalo Bore bullets. Split my knuckle open and numbed my hand for 3 days. On the other hand the .480 Ruger I once fired was quite pleasant. Go figure. Regards, Robert ****************************** H4350! It stays crunchy in milk longer! | |||
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Naw, getting clocked in the head and knocked senseless lets you ignore the bears teeth. You know, if your hand hurts, smash your big toe and your hand won't feel so bad anymore!  | |||
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Very true, I hate TC's even in smaller calibers. It was not made for a man to shoot. I can shoot those loads all day from my BFR. I shot my TC 30-30 standing, off hand with one hand a few times---just a few times! Funny that when shot from Creedmore it was fine all day and that is with one hand too. Something different about it. | |||
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Let's see. The .41 and .44 Scandiums are nearly double, or more, the weight of the .357. It's the speed of the recoil that really kills with the little gun. I haven't worked up recoil tables for them, since I'm not likely to add one due to size to the stable, and, the state I live in. IIRC, my 148 grain 1131 fps JSP Fioochi generates around 25 ft-lbs of recoil, but, it's moving some insane speed, like 45 ft-per sec, in the 360 PD. Speed kills, in this case. Even the super heavy .500 Maximum loads only generate around 30 fps of speed, but, they generate 55-82 ft-lbs of recoil energy. Here is a table I worked up when I was considering a Hellboy like Toms': HELLBOY RUGER MONTADO .500 JRH 275 GRAINS 1200 FPS BARNES Recoil Energy of 19 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 23 fps. 275 grains 1300 fps Barnes Recoil Energy of 22 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 25 fps. 325 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Titegroup .475" 1.740" 8.0 844 21,500 PSI Recoil Energy of 11 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 18 fps. 325 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon H4227 .475" 1.740" 27.0 1288 28,000 PSI Recoil Energy of 32 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 30 fps. 370 GR. CPB LFP Hodgdon Titegroup .475" 1.770" 8.0 925 27,100 PSI Recoil Energy of 17 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 22 fps. 350 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Titegroup 1.740" 12.0 1138 34,700 PSI Recoil Energy of 25 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 26 fps. 370 GR. CPB LFP Hodgdon H4227 .475" 1.770" 25.5 1259 31,800 PSI Recoil Energy of 37 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 32 fps. As you can see, even with a 32 or 35 oz gun, you don't get the insane velocities you do with a full house load for the 360PD. For conversation, we will assume you could actually get these velocities out of the 360PD: 360PD recoil figures: 180 gr. L.F.N. -G.C. (1,400fps/M.E. 783 ft. lbs.) Recoil Energy of 41 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 60 fps. 158 gr. J.H.C. (1,475fps/M.E. 763 ft. lbs.) Recoil Energy of 37 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 57 fps. 125 gr. J.H.C. (1,700fps/M.E. 802 ft. lbs.) Recoil Energy of 35 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 55 fps. The above loads are buffalobores heavy .357. They were clearly far beyond anything I wanted to do to myself... | |||
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Wrap your finger and shoot the damn thing! Come on now, you can do it, Jim!  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Twice the weight yes, but they are shooting a much larger cartridge, burning a lot more powder and pushing a lot heavier bullets. Plus, I don't think that little gun loaded hot would achieve much velocity with that ultra-short barrel. I would think the scandian .44 and .41 have a lot more potential to hurt the shooter. Many years ago I had the opportunity to shoot a derringer in 10mm and the full-tilt 180 grain loads out of it stung a bit as well -- not real fun, but I have shot worse. I calculated the recoil of the .50 AK and at the current level with the current load, it generated just over 104 ft-lbs of recoil energy.........this is why it is so difficult to control.......  If I got it down to the 80 ft-lb level, I think it would actually be on the "pleasant" side to shoot."Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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GS, I can assure you that with th 2" barrel on that revolver your velocity is no where near the speeds that you are quoting. I have a 2 1/2" 357 and have chrongraphed it. The 41 Mag Scandi has a 4" barrel and gets about 1330 FPS with the Buffalo Bore 230 Grain load. Man up  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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To put it in perspective, 458 Win Mag is 57 lbs of recoil, 500 Nitro is 74 lbs and the 577 3" Nitro is, guess what? 104. From what I've seen here, a football helmet would be a good shooting accessory.. Once as a recoil test of sorts I took a win model 12 pump in 16 ga and loaded one round, a heavy field load. 1 1/4 oz I think. The gun itself is not as heavily built as the 12 ga model 12. Otherwise I don't know if I could have even tried this. What I did was hold it one hand only with arm extended all the way straight out horizontally, to see if I could hold it tight enough to not drop it when fired. Interesting test. Anyone else ever try anything like that? | |||
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I know the bigger guns kick much more, but as far as fealt recoil and pain, you can't appreciate how nasty the 357 titanium snubby is unless you fire one. It literally feels like you're setting off a .357 mag round in the web of your hand. Too small of a gun to shoot with gloves, and you're hand feels brutalized after the experience. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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I have been shooting a 44 Mag since 1970. In a 4" Mountain Revolver I consider it perfect for daily carry in the Bear woods. I can shoot it with one hand from awkward positions, without injury. I can shoot full power 454 and 475 Linebaugh loads with two hands without difficulty. I have a 475LB, and I like it. I do not see the need for anything more powerful, for me. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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A friend I worked with had this same exact revolver and he let me use it to take my first ever feral hog. After the first eye-opening cylinder full of practice rounds, I launched enough Corbon hunting loads to confirm the zero. It really wasn't toooooo bad once you knew what to expect.
The worst was a S&W 329 PD. It's so light and the rubber option grip isn't the best that it was pretty painful to shoot a cylinder of full house .44 Mags. | |||
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Agreed, NE. I have no desire to own or shoot anything more powerful than my FA in 475L. But, I would certainly like to see others shoot Marko's guns! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Haha! Yes, it will be available for anyone who wants to try it -- just make sure your insurance is paid up!  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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I think the worst kicking load I've shot in .454 was Double Tap's 400 grain WFN at 1,400 fps........ SRHs are just abusive! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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I'll shoot it, bring plenty of ammo. I love shooting free ammo.... _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I know. It's just for the sake of argument. Recoil calculations don't take into account how well the powder type, and charge are matched to the actual barrel length. What makes the 360 PD so nasty is it weighs .75 pounds, and, that light weight is what creates the recoil speed, and that's what kills. The Montado figures are real close to the weight of the scandium .41 and .44. I think I put in 2 pounds... Sort of like that old Remington .44 special ammo that kicked WAY more then the handloads I made up for my Charter Arms bulldog, even though the handloads went faster, by a lot, really low level 44 mag loads, the junk powder Remington used recoiled way worse, and the bullets went out so slow you could see them easily. My guess was around 500 fps. The .41 mag is around 30 0z. loaded. That slows recoil considerably, since it's about twice the weight of the 360PD. Still, I have little doubt they kick like a mule. Which is worse? I guess this is one test I'll pass on... Marko: Your well into the 'insane' levels with your .50 Alaskan loads. What you REALLY need is a Ruger Number one, with an 18" barrel, in Stainless, chambered in .510 Wells/A2. Figure with full house loads it recoils about 150 ft lbs or more, and, at about 6 pounds, it's moving REALLY fast. | |||
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Shooting the 700gr slugs out of the S&W 500ES snubby was an exercise in stupidity. I shot them out of my 8-3/8" and they weren't bad. I shot them out of my 7-1/2" and they still weren't bad. I shot them out of my 6-1/2" and they weren't "that" bad, so I thought, what the heck. Boy was I wrong. I have no idea how fast they were moving because I didn't give any thought to running them through my chrono....and don't plan to either. But, they were still moving a little over 1200fps out of my 6-1/2". At least I do know my limit now. | |||
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With due respect, I don't get this comment. The great thing about heavy slugs, for caliber, and short barrels, is that you do get great velocity for barrel length. The price is recoil. Your comments make that clear. A 700 grain bullet, for a huge bear, etc. sounds like a pretty good idea. My question is, how long is the bear, and, what is the lightest bullet that will go end to end in something likely to eat you? If the 700 grain bullet was expanding, or, soft cast, likely to expand, then it makes a bit more sense... | |||
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DEC, that truly sounds painful! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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You are exempt from shooting it! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Expansion would make no sense at all. That's a .500 caliber bullet in no need of a size increase. At 700 grains with a wide flat nose, it was made for extreme penetration. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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That's one view. The other is the reason the .500 Nitro is so devastating is with soft point bullets, you get a huge, deep hole. So, you have a couple sliders on this graph. You have bullet velocity creating temporary/ permanent wound channel. You also have bullet expansion creating the same thing. As the velocity goes down, the wound channel is not as big diameter wise, but, it may well be longer. As velocity goes up, you get a bigger temp wound channel, due to velocity and bullet deformation/expansion, creating more of a cone shaped wound profile. .475jwp has found that for whatever reason, the 525 grain bullet hitting a hog has devastating effect at 1100 fps. Now, another part of the equation that I've also felt favored heavy bullets is velocity THROUGH THE TARGET ANIMAL, IF MAINTAINED, CREATES A CYLINDRICAL wound channel. If the bullet is light, and slows a lot into the target, the last half of the penetration tends to be pretty much bullet caliber sized in diameter, since the velocity is so low the bullet doesn't maintain it's 'wake' through the target. Just think of an Aircraft carrier's wake at 30 knots, and at 5 to get the idea. Most guys just stay with cast since they are way cheaper, work very well, and do the job. An expanding lead bullet is more along the lines of the old Nitro Express setups, lower velocity, very heavy bullet, with expansion. If a 10MM bullet will expand to .95", why would you want to settle for a .50" caliber hole???? | |||
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Actually, the NE cartridges were much more reliable performers shooting solids. They don't penetrate particularly deeply with expanding bullets. When hunting DG, solids are used more frequently. I'm not interested in the temporary wound channel. Whatever reason? No. The 525 is a large diameter, heavy bullet, with a large flat nose -- those are reasons it works well -- particularly on bison. He's only shot one hog with that load if I can recall. If hardcast bullets cost me more to shoot than jacketed, I'd still be using them and I suspect others in the know would too. I would suggest that you do less theorizing and actually go out and shoot some game. That is the only way to truly get an idea how these things work. JMHO. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Not bad means the fingers are still on the hand and no eyeball is missing! | |||
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No need. There are about 20 guys on Reeder's forum with most of the handgun record animals, using relatively light bullets, and smaller calibers. Jurras showed you could kill everything with 185 grain JHP's, in .44 magnum. There seems to be a natural progression from young and extreme, heavy bullets for caliber, at high velocity, to older age, wiser, lighter bullets for caliber, with percise shot placement, and, lighter calibers. Another way of putting it is those that are injured from heavy recoiling handguns, and, those that are still young, and are getting there. There is also a place for just plain sensible, and balanced, and both heavy and slower work, along with 300 grains and fast... Marko: Who's shot more game: you or Safarikid? | |||
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You're missing the point entirely. The NE cartridges made their mark with solids more so than with soft points. Penetration is the name of the game and large holes in the game animal. Young and extreme? What in the hell are you talking about? I don't know why you find the 525 grain .500 L load to be so offensive. Have you shot it? Have you shot some of the lighter and much faster loads? I find that they sting more than the 525 from a recoil standpoint. The reason my .500 is such a handful is that first of all it is a double action revolver and secondly, it weighs less than 3-lbs. I have a more valid question: Who has killed more game with a handgun, you or me? Last year alone I took eight head of game with a handgun. While not the most experienced handgun hunter on this forum, I do my fair share of hunting and testing on a regular basis. You keep arguing the effectiveness of bullets on game, yet you don't hunt -- I find this a bit odd. Why are you dragging Tom into this? There are plenty of guys on this forum with lots of handgun hunting experience -- so you need not go to Reeder's forum if you seek opinions based on experience. Besides, everyone has an opinion....... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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I'll be 59 on the 30 th of this month, no problem shooting the proper bullets on game with the 475's and/or 500's hell I've even put 17 rounds at one sitting through the 50 Alaskan revolver that I sold Whitworth. bfrshooter, is 72 and has no problem Too much theorizing IMHO _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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That's close. It was actually a 180 jhp - http://automagpistol.pcst.co.u...rum_posts.asp?TID=27. You'll find a post or posts in there somewhere on that. That was a good thread. I hope it's not against any rules mentioning other forums here, but I looked at the Reeder board and am glad to see he's got that going. It reminds me a little of the automag forum in its early days. I'm sure LEJ would find the discussion here now real interesting. At one time he had his own discussion board too. Not that it matters but I've bought one gun from Gary and am really pleased with it. | |||
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I was not taking a shot at Reeder or his site, merely mentioning that you don't need to stray from here to find folks with significant handgun hunting experience. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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That's a real weak argument, counselor. The experiences of others are not your own. Nothing like experiencing something firsthand to actually appreciate it. By the way, Lee Juras' 180 grain hollow-points featured a 30-thousandths thick jacket and weren't designed to expand -- you know that Jack has some and he can show you. When Lee saw the "error" in his theory of light bullets at high velocity, he went in the opposite direction with his Howda rounds. He was using up to 600 grain bullets in .50 caliber. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Light and fast is best reserved for backpacking and prairie dogs. Yes, it is fine with me to mention other forums as well as what the participants do. I've had my name in the records books with handgun kills, don't really think it's that big a deal. After a while it just shows what and how much hunting you can pay for. I will put my experience level up with anyone else's. At 44, I've hunted more than most and not as much as some. As long as everyone likes what they own, that's about all that's necessary. I own FAs and Linebaugh conversions. It's what I like and that's about the end of it. Whether or not anyone else likes my choice in handguns is immaterial to me. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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Were the 180 LEJ loads you referred to Auto Mag ammo or revolver? He was talking about the AM in that link above. And are they Super-Vel? If so, I imagine that means for revolvers. Only one person knows for sure, but as to "seeing the error in his theory" my best guess is that the Howdah was a case of "also" rather than "instead of".. | |||
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Exactly. I'm trying to point out that there are different schools and both work. I'll load some 525's at 1100 fps and try em. I've got about 25 left over from my last loading of 525's at 1350 fps. Lee Jurras, last time we exchanged info, said his favorite gun, if he could have only one, was a .475 Linebaugh, Ruger conversion, shooting 420's at 950 fps, hard cast lead. In this forum we have guys that like expanding bullets, hunt a ton, and use em. Just because you want 1350 fps, super accuracy, and a 420 grain bullet because it's simple, and works, doesn't mean that's the cat's meow for everyone else. My right wrist is sore this morning, and I didn't go shooting anything worse then a basketball last night. St. Thomas Aquinas might agree that the heavier calibers were designed for one thing, shooting big game animals. A lot of people, and, you need those people unless you want everything to stay super exclusive, and super expensive, want to us whatever they've got for whatever they want. I can learn from both schools, and make my own choices... Thank you for your input, Marko. I value that, and everyone elses. I understand why you do what you do, and your choices. Doesn't mean that is the only true path to handgun shooting... | |||
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REvolver loads, around 1900 fps. Compressed or close, very hard crimp, used tar to hold the bullets in place, or maybe it was tar paper. Marko is partially right: he used different thickness jackets for different game. Light game, thin jacket, heavy game, thick jacket, don't know, take the thicker jacket. Jurras did his homework, and, like Marko, shot heck out of that one load, and, was super accurate. Playing card with a full cylinder, at 100 yards, off hand, on good days when he was younger: which is why, I think, Marko sticks with the 420's at 1350 fps. Jack told me my .475 custom FA would cloverleaf with 420 casts at 50 yards, a full cylinder, but, the load was with V110, IIRC, and also around 1350 fps. There is a certain logic to using one load, one bullet, one gun, and shooting it a ton so you can hit exactly where you aim. I respect that approach... | |||
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