I am going to be hunting for whitetail here in Missouri with my Super Redhawk with a 9 1/2 barrel. My shots will be 50 yards or less from a tree stand, I want to use AA#5 with Hornady XTPs either 180 grain or 240 grain bullets. I have loaded a bunch of 180 XTPs with 15 grains of AA#5 just to practice with. I would like to know if anyone else has used #5 in the 44 mag for hunting and if so what your recommendations are. Thanks!

XTP is a good bullet, especially for deer. I would be more inclined to use the heavier of the two bullets. Good luck, and good hunting!

I would prefer the 240gr bullets for deer as well.

My first deer rifle was a 44 Mag Ruger.

Back then 240gr bullets were the only choice. I killed a lot of deer with Winchester and Remington factory loads, and later with 240gr reloads.

Never had one go very far after being hit.

Don't fool with the 180 gr. Even the 240 XTP can stop in a deer and I recovered all of mine against the off side skin even with behind the shoulder shots.

240s are the way to go. I usually use w296 on my hunting loads, it helps illuminate targets on overcast days or last light shooting and gives me tremendous accuracy as well.

John

ditto on the 240s. I have used XTPs, cast, Remington SJHP, Sierra JHC, and a couple of others I can't recall at this time. If you simply must shoot a 180 grain bullet, make it a .35 caliber.

I would use 240 gr bullets also. I've shot several deer with that wt. bullet and they don't go far. Good luck on your hunt.

I use a cast 240 gr. I am going to try some cast 300's I cast my own. A 240 makes two holes every time.

quote:

Originally posted by Littledragon:
I am going to be hunting for whitetail here in Missouri with my Super Redhawk with a 9 1/2 barrel. My shots will be 50 yards or less from a tree stand, I want to use AA#5 with Hornady XTPs either 180 grain or 240 grain bullets. I have loaded a bunch of 180 XTPs with 15 grains of AA#5 just to practice with. I would like to know if anyone else has used #5 in the 44 mag for hunting and if so what your recommendations are. Thanks!

With those ranges from a rest or a stand against Whitetails, I wouldn't worry so much about whatever your shooting from your 44 Mag (just use standard mag loads). Shot placement will be the key. Do your job and the projectile will do it's. Deer are light skinned, thin boned critters and the 44 Mag is just damn cool. Just about anything placed right from a 44 Mag will anchor one at those ranges.

That being said, load a 250gr Nosler Partition HG with H110 and you would be good up to an Elk at those ranges from a handgun. If you want testosterone confidence, then that's the load you want.


M

Thanks for all the comments. I appreciate them!

Velocity is the other side of the equation. Since it hasn't already been mentioned, I'll recommend that you pick a fps that yield's muzzle energy as close as possible to 1,000 ft lbs.

If you hit one in the boiler room at 50 yds with a 240 at or close to the 1K the deer generally only travels 18" farther..straight down. The 1K energy level I think also gives you a slight margin for error.

I'm not a handloader, but you can duplicate these. Hornady's XTP @ 1350 fps is just under 1K ft lbs and my preferred load in ready-to-run off-the-shelf ammo.

1450 is what Cor-Bon calls a 240 gr .44 magnum and is IMO overkill, but still a great deer stopper...obviously.

1250 is Black Hills 240 gr load and does fine too, but you lose very roughly another 100 ft lbs for each 100 drop in velocity.

1180 is both Rem and Win. Those have satisfied a lot of hunters.

Anything less is what I'd call a "cowboy" load in a 240 in .44 magnum. An example would be the commercial re-loads you run across at many local gun shops, the kind where you turn in spent brass and get a discount. I haven't tried hunting with those but ones I've inquired about seem to run about 1000 fps. They frequently don't put the velocity on the box and the maker frequently doesn't know what it is. You can get your deer with these too however. From there, you drop down further into .44 Spl territory. Some use them with good results..but that's not my idea of how to go about it. Hope this helps.

Ditto the 296 and 240's, I use a cast 245 from a Lyman mold, non gas checked, 23.5 grains 296 seated to 1.71 lubed with orange magic. Shoots 2" at 50 yds. and it makes 2 holes always.

Another vote for the 240 gr . ..
. I myself prefer the 300 gr -320 gr bullets @ 1200 fps ..... I scored a big wad of 300 gr bullets for mine and the standard load of 20 gr H110 or W 296 works great ......... Almost NO BLOOD SHOCK . and usually complete penetration from any angle ..... But then . I,m loaded for Moose if I get the chance ....... 180s are for 2 legged varmits IMO . or plinking .

another for the 240. just got the cold steel handgunning video down under where he uses 300gr. xtps on water buff 28 times and those were at 1150 fps. amazing to watch the buff drop as quick from those as they did on his other video from a 375 HH. amazing. i think for deer the 240 is the perfect size for deer. great trajectory and still big enough to hammer them down. the 180's are what i'd load for the 2 legged critters i might run into so to speak. my experience has shown the 240's to penetrate a touch better if they're loading to about 1200-1250. they don't open as much as if loaded to 1350 or above, but at that velocity it's a flying ash tray and just wrecks deer. either way you can't go wrong. good luck.

I have posted this on other occasions, but here goes again: the late Finn Aagard said many years ago that his favorite hunting load was a hard cast 240-250-grain bullet over 11 grains of AA #5. I have shot a lot of that round; it is very comfortable and accurate as heck... I see no reason why that load wouldn't work like a charm behind your 240-grain XTPs, but I would start at about 9 grains and work up.

Just my thoughts...

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
another for the 240. just got the cold steel handgunning video down under where he uses 300gr. xtps on water buff 28 times and those were at 1150 fps. amazing to watch the buff drop as quick from those as they did on his other video from a 375 HH. amazing. i think for deer the 240 is the perfect size for deer. great trajectory and still big enough to hammer them down. the 180's are what i'd load for the 2 legged critters i might run into so to speak. my experience has shown the 240's to penetrate a touch better if they're loading to about 1200-1250. they don't open as much as if loaded to 1350 or above, but at that velocity it's a flying ash tray and just wrecks deer. either way you can't go wrong. good luck.

I too took delivery of that video last week and it is pretty amazing and testimony to Lynn Thompson's shooting abilities!

quote:

I too took delivery of that video last week and it is pretty amazing

Whitworth are you talking about this YouTube video?

Or is there a DVD out there? If so, I'd love to have it!

Yeah, that's the one. There's a whole DVD -- go on the Cold Steel website and you can order it from them. He kills something like 80 animals and he is a killing machine! Really an exceptional shot. I recommend getting it.

Thanks, I'll check it out!

Well worth it in my opinion!

it's one of the best hunting vids i've gotten. that man can shoot. he doesn't make excuses for a bad shot or a miss. seems like a guy you could really hunt with and have a good time, very down to earth. wish he'd have filmed his big six exploits. evidently he stopped a charge point blank from a cape buff with his 454. takes an ele, hippo, croc, lion, leopard i believe.
btw, on the death down under which is rifle hunting he shows great rifle shooting ability but takes a buff with a spear!!!


i was most shocked with how the buffs went down with such a mild load from a .44

Getting back to the question at hand. Doing more thinking than necessary comes up with a 225gr Barnes XPB out of the 44 mag. This round can scream, expand and penetrate. Whitetails at 50 yds? You bet, with terminal performance to spare.

Enjoy!

I have a bunch of 180 grain XTPs that I hand loaded with 15.1 grains of AA#5 that I have been shooting at the range out to 50 yards. This load is really accurate of of my Super Redhawk with a 4 power scope. I have some factory 240 XTPs that I shot also. They hit about 5 inches lower than my handloaded 180s do at 25 yards. Kind of suprised me that they were that much lower at that close of distance. Also the factory 240s did not kick much more than the 180 handloads did. If I get the chance I will hunt with both the 180s and the 240s this year. At the ranges I will be shooting 50 yards and in with most shots coming at 30 yards or less I am looking forward to see the difference in the 2 loads on whitetail.

Usually the muzzle or kenetic energy numbers are discussed and I must admit I usually check these values when hunting whitetail with either a .357 or 44 magnum, and almost without exception the lighter faster bullet produces the higher values as the energy is calulated by the square of the velocity.

But as most hunteres know, physics and hunting are not always even closly related. But I want to choose a bullet that will almost certainly remain in the target, expending all the energy on the deer.

Of course reloading manuals are more concerned with excessive pressures and the max. load will be based primarily on that and could be fired from a wide range of barrel lengths, so exact velocities can be a bit iffy to say the least.

With the 44, the difference in energy between the 180 and 240 gr. is not that great in the 2 manuals I checked and the velocity of the 240 should be sufficient to expect good bullet expansion. Given that, I would choose the 240.

But with the .357 the difference is much more noticable between the 125 and 158 or 160 JHPs.

3 years ago I took a 120 pound doe from a tree stand with the 125 loaded with 21 grs. of H110 with a muzzle vel. of about 1750 fps in my 7 1/2 barrel. Shot the deer at about 35 yds at a downward sloping angle behind the right front leg. It didn't drop in it's tracks but traveled only about 75 yds and was dead when I reached it. The largest bullet fragment found was only 40 grs with fragments everywhere. Lost some meat but the 125 did an impressive bit of damage.

F. Prefect

I am oversimplifying here, because I don't have a lt of time right now. I for one never look at energy figures. They are calculated (not measured or measurable), and meaningless. In the realm of handguns, on paper the .454 Casull in all of its max loadings produces more "ME" than the .475 Linbaugh. Which one do you think hits harder? It ain't the .454.......

Same observation with my big rifles (like my .458 Lott, .416 Rem, etc.), compared to my big hanguns. The rifles don't seem to kill any faster.

The .429 is more effective than the .357, but it's because it's slinging a much larger projectile.

JMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
I am oversimplifying here, because I don't have a lt of time right now. I for one never look at energy figures. They are calculated (not measured or measurable), and meaningless. In the realm of handguns, on paper the .454 Casull in all of its max loadings produces more "ME" than the .475 Linbaugh. Which one do you think hits harder? It ain't the .454.......

Same observation with my big rifles (like my .458 Lott, .416 Rem, etc.), compared to my big hanguns. The rifles don't seem to kill any faster.

The .429 is more effective than the .357, but it's because it's slinging a much larger projectile.

JMHO.

I'll have to disagree with your statements concerning the kinetic energy a projectle carries with it and what effect it will have on any target, be it a deer, watermelon, or ballistic jel.

Yes, they are calculated, but calulated with known variables such as the weight of the projectle and the velocity it is traveling when if strikes an object. It's FAR from being meaningless, in fact it can easily be calculated E= 1/2massXvelocity(squared)

Although these calculation are very accurate if the weight of the bullet and it's velocity are accurately measured, when hunting live game, the type of game and bullet used will make a huge difference in how the energy will effect the game. With a very tough, thick skinned animal, the rapidly moving light bullet may loose a great deal of it's energy by simply impacting the skin and with the result possibly being the bullet becoming totally fragmented with very little penatration, while a heavier solid bullet, while delivering less energy on impact, will not deform and penetrate deeply into the game. The deer I shot in my above post is a relatively thin skinned animal and the explosive fragmentation upon entering the body made for an extremely lethal wound. A heavier solid bullet, if it pass completely through the deer without hitting bone would produce a narrow wound channel, and depending on what organs were hit may not even have produced a lethal wound. I'm not that familiar with the two cartridges you mention above, but again, all would depend upon the game and the type of bullet used.

I would of course agree that the 44 magnum firing a .430" or .429" diameter bullet with double the weight will deliver nearly double the force of the lighter .357 traveling only slightly faster and deliver nearly twice the energy on the target although some will be "wasted" should the bullet pass completely through the deer.

The goal is a simple one. Have the full force of the kinetic energy be delivered to the game animal with sufficient penetration to reach the vital organs without passing completely through the animal.

F. Prefect

Momentum is transfered, not energy, hence the more effectiveness of a heavy for caliber bullet at moderate velocity. Peteration to the vitals is the key, and if your expanding bullets doesn't make it there, you have failed. Bullets traveling at high velocity scrub off speed at a much higher rate than those traveling at moderate (1,100 - 1,300 fps). Nose profile and caliber will determine the size of the primary wound channel -- hence the use of flat-nosed hardcast bullets.

Again, on paper a .454 Casull makes even the .500 Linebaugh look lame if you look at ME, but anyone who has shot game with these big, moderate velocity cartridges knows which one kills better -- and it ain't the high-speed .45.

Energy "dump" is another myth. I personally want two holes in my animals. If the bullet doesn't exit, I consider it a failure.

I have to respectfuly ask if you have taken any game with a big-bore revolver aside from the .429 magnum?

Which two cartridges are you inquiring about? The .475 Linebaugh and the .454 Casull?

You can take a .22-250 with a 55 grain bullet traveling at 3,600 fps and it produces 1,582.59 ft-lbs of ME, or a 360 grain bullet at 1,400 fps from a .454 Casull makes 1,566.6 ft-lbs of ME. Shoot a 250-lb boar with a thick gristle plate -- which one do you think will be more effective? ME is not a good determinant of effectiveness on game. It's a sales tool.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Momentum is transfered, not energy, hence the more effectiveness of a heavy for caliber bullet at moderate velocity. Peteration to the vitals is the key, and if your expanding bullets doesn't make it there, you have failed. Bullets traveling at high velocity scrub off speed at a much higher rate than those traveling at moderate (1,100 - 1,300 fps). Nose profile and caliber will determine the size of the primary wound channel -- hence the use of flat-nosed hardcast bullets.

Again, on paper a .454 Casull makes even the .500 Linebaugh look lame if you look at ME, but anyone who has shot game with these big, moderate velocity cartridges knows which one kills better -- and it ain't the high-speed .45.

Energy "dump" is another myth. I personally want two holes in my animals. If the bullet doesn't exit, I consider it a failure.

I have to respectfuly ask if you have taken any game with a big-bore revolver aside from the .429 magnum?

Which two cartridges are you inquiring about? The .475 Linebaugh and the .454 Casull?

You can take a .22-250 with a 55 grain bullet traveling at 3,600 fps and it produces 1,582.59 ft-lbs of ME, or a 360 grain bullet at 1,400 fps from a .454 Casull makes 1,566.6 ft-lbs of ME. Shoot a 250-lb boar with a thick gristle plate -- which one do you think will be more effective? ME is not a good determinant of effectiveness on game. It's a sales tool.

Have you ever seen a deer shot at 75 yds with a 22-250 pushing a 52 gr. hp benchrest bullet that have jackets much thicker than hunting bullets and tend not to expand nearly as rapidly at a chronographed muz. vel. of 4060 fps? It was bad ugly.

I'm not advocating that load but I loaded a few for a friend one year who usually ends up with a couple of extra tags and wanted to see what this particular load would produce at a fairly close range on thin skinned game.

well, not to disagree, but........with my guns i will be honest, and i don't notice one lick of difference b/w my .475 and .454 if roughly equivalent loads are used. the analogy you used was of a 60 gr bullet vs. one 5x's larger and over 2x's the diameter. a .454 and a .475 aren't much diff to begin with and when it's close a little velocity sure helps alot if bullets that'll stay together are used. the diff in bullet diameter is in the 100th's of an inch not "double". and. btw, very high velocity rounds do a number on animals like the .22 250 if bullets hold together. use barnes loads and they wreck hogs. i know, i use them.

to make the same analogy, if one were to argue a 900 caliber bullet/600 grain bullet at one third the velocity to my casull was much more devastating i'd be inclined to agree until i realized that would be my son's slingshot.
i guess i've never seen the diff b/w a 360 gr. .452 round at 1425 fps and a 370 gr round at 1350 from a .475 or a 420 at 1350 from a .475 and a 400 at 1400 from a .452 or the 360 at 1500fps. trust me, when i got my .475 i wanted to see it, just never did.

"ENERGY. Surely the most misleading thing in the world-where rifles are concerned. Gunsmiths invariably quote it because, particularly since the advent of the magnum, it is decidedly flattering to their weapons. Personally, however, I take little notice of these figures. They're quite useless if yo are trying to compare any two rifles form the point of view of actual punch inflicted by the bullet. Muzzle energy is far too dependent upon velocity and tends to ignore bullet weight; but it's the weight of the bullet that matters when it's a case of knocking down some beast at close range" = Pondoro Taylor

The same can be said for handguns today. Energy dump is a farce and those who subscribe to it are, in my opinion sorely lacking in real world experience. Bullet weight and diameter are constants with velocity diminishing form the moment the bullet exits the barrel. Anyone not seeing the difference in this probably needs to have his sight checked.

Whitworth's example is a very good one with regards to the fallacy of muzzle energy.

If nothing else I think we have shown that energy does matter, but with the wrong bullet it could be next to useless. Just a guess, but I suspect the 375 H&H has brought down more elephants than any of the .400 to .600 cal. big bores. A 300 gr. solid at 2500-2600fps will easily penetrate the skin and skull of any elephant or buffalo with no problem, and although not an inexpensive rifle, would not set a hunter back nearly as much as many of the older large bores.

In fact I suspect the military's new 338 Lapua Magnum snipper round shooting a 300 solid with a ballistic coefficient of over .91 at 2750fps would allow one to bring down the big beasts at relatively safe ranges of 200+ yards if you didn't mind using a tripod. That is one amazing rifle and cartridge.

F. Prefect

I have a good friend with a .338 Lapua and I have shot it. It develops more ME than the .458 win mag, yet I wouldn't choose it over the .458 on elephant. I'll take the big heavy bullet at moderate velocity every time.

Penetration is the most important issue in my book. If I am starting out with a large diameter, I need no expansion, just need to reach the vitals. ME doesn't figure at all in this equation.

We've shown that energy matters only those who don't know any better. Energy did not matter in Pondoro's day, that has not changed. Energy dump is still a farce, won't be anything different. I'll stick with my slower moving, big heavy bullets and punch two holes in my game. Go out and get a couple hundred whitetail kills under your belt and come back and let's talk some more.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
We've shown that energy matters only those who don't know any better. Energy did not matter in Pondoro's day, that has not changed. Energy dump is still a farce, won't be anything different. I'll stick with my slower moving, big heavy bullets and punch two holes in my game. Go out and get a couple hundred whitetail kills under your belt and come back and let's talk some more.

How about a .750 cal. 1000gr bullet with a muzzle velocity of 300fps and the bull elephant is coming full bore at a range of 25 yards. I'll even let you have a double so you should be able to get in both of your 2 shots.

Sorry, but I don't like your chances.

Seriously, not attempting to be some wise as*, only attempting to make a point. Just out of curiosity, how much muzzle velocity do you think you will need? But remember, velocity is an important ingedient in calculating stopping power or ENERGY. I didn't develop the equation, some guy named Newton did it years ago. E= 1/2 mass X Velocity (squared)

F. Prefect

Through a good bit of penetration testing on paper and live game, I have found pushing the large cast bullets between 1,100 and 1,200 fps to be optimum. Of course, I have yet to find a game animal in the southeast that can hold a 450 grain .512" bullet launched at 850 to 900 fps.

A .750 cal 1,000 grain bullet at 300 fps? Even the Brits knew better than that. I wouldn't worry so much about looking like a wise ass with that kind of remark. I believe looking like a dumb ass would be more likely to occur. Let's leave the energy transfer for the thermodynamics problems and go to momentum, which is what you need to be looking.

taylor had many instances where he admittedly contradicted himself. the slingshot comment was not to be a smart or a dumbass but to simply show the example where energy makes a big big difference. it's not necessarily energy "dump" but it sure does influence something in making a difference. i've had great luck with buffalo bore 270 grain .44 mag at 1450 fps softpoint loads on large game. my son gets great penetration and about a .75 caliber hole. it's not energy dump, it's how big a hole is penetrating. yes, a .500 will fully penetrate a bison and leave a .500 caliber hole but so will my casull with a barnes x bullet at over 1800 fps. it's just that the hole is .8-1.0 caliber. no one's arguing energy dump theory here though with today's bullets, the weatherby calibers have really really proven themselves with some very impressive results but then again that's with rifles but when the velocities start nearing 2000 fps it begins to matter imho. those .44 mag rounds lynn thompson were nailing buff with were sure not on the energy level of any rounds we're talking about here but they will leave an .80 caliber hole with that xtp bullet. it's not energy dump, it's about the bullet hole diameter and that's a bigger hole than a hardcast fity cal round. sooooo with the right bullet there all overly adequate, including the .44

.452 caliber, .429, .475, .458, .510 really really doesn't matter and i've not seen it matter and killing a couple hundred more whitetail that could be taken with a heavy .22 mag round really shows nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
Through a good bit of penetration testing on paper and live game, I have found pushing the large cast bullets between 1,100 and 1,200 fps to be optimum. Of course, I have yet to find a game animal in the southeast that can hold a 450 grain .512" bullet launched at 850 to 900 fps.

A .750 cal 1,000 grain bullet at 300 fps? Even the Brits knew better than that. I wouldn't worry so much about looking like a wise ass with that kind of remark. I believe looking like a dumb ass would be more likely to occur. Let's leave the energy transfer for the thermodynamics problems and go to momentum, which is what you need to be looking.

Of course they knew better, and is why you completely avoided my question and resorted to name calling and attempting to change the verbage from energy to momentum.(Similar, but not exactly the same. If momentum was what was being calculated in numerous reloading manuals, I suspect they would be referring to ft/lbs of momemtum rather than energy, but perhaps they are all incorrect) Shall we call that a deversionary tactic? If velocity is an unimportant factor in determining the amount of energy (momentum if you prefer, although it's incorrect) why not the 300fps 1000gr projectle? Might it be because you have no viable explanation? Surely not.

There are 2 types of energy. Potential, and Kinetic. One example of potential energy would be if I were holding a bowling ball at waist level. Should I let go, the potential energy begins a conversion to kinetic energy, or energy of motion. A gun is simply a device that converts the potential energy stored in the powder composed of nitrocelulous,(pardon the spelling) or nitrocelulous and nitroglycerine in the case of double based powder, to kinetic energy in the form of the rapid burning of the powder producing a rapid increase in pressure within the case and barrel thus accelerating the bullet down the barrel and converting the potential energy to kinetic energy in the process, but I would hope you are well aware of that. And the relationship is NOT one to one. For ever doubling of the the bullet velocity, the kinetic energy of motion increases at a 4 fold rate.

I simply cannot understand why you apparently seem to believe the velocity of a bullet is of little or no consequense when determining what a bullet will do when it strikes an object. But I shall refrain from making any references to asses or dumb. Nothing could be more simple. Why not just toss a few 5 pound stones and run like hell if bullet mass is the only determining factor.

Of course bullet weight is important as is the type of bullet being used, but the speed at which the bullet impacts the target is the most important factor assuming the correct bullet and bullet weight is being used.

I have a degree in Physics, but this is high school material. Newton's basic laws of motion. I just can't understand why you continue to insist that velocity is of little or no importance when determining the outcome of bullet striking a brick wall, a watermelon, or an elephant between the eyes. Believe what you want. I really have ceased to care.

F. Prefect

fprefect, have you done a lot of handgun hunting? Just curious. I too bought into energy, at one point, but have seen the light. Especially after taking game with my .458 Lott and its nearly 6,000 lb-ft of muzzle energy

I would suggest that you call John Linebaugh himself at (307) 645-3332 and ask him what he thinks optimal velocity is for maximum penetration.