Forgive me for adding something political, but the current POTUS is adding exponentially to our debt under the guise of fixing the economy. Do you open a new line of credit when you are burried in credit debt already??

Sorry!

Anyhow, we can all agree to disagree, as long as you agree with me -- everyone is entitled to my opinion. Just kidding!

You wouldn't want to use that hyper .22-250 load on anything big and heavy that bites. JMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Forgive me for adding something political, but the current POTUS is adding exponentially to our debt under the guise of fixing the economy. Do you open a new line of credit when you are burried in credit debt already??

Sorry!

Anyhow, we can all agree to disagree, as long as you agree with me -- everyone is entitled to my opinion. Just kidding!

You wouldn't want to use that hyper .22-250 load on anything big and heavy that bites. JMHO.

Yeah I did the math a couple of months ago and should interests rates return only briefly to the levels of the late 70s, all of our current tax revenues (including the SS payroll taxes) would fall short of the amount needed just to service our current 15 trillion dollar national debt and we would need to borrow er, print aditional funds just to pay the interest. And as you correctly point out the POTUS seems to believe that holding the growth of the national debt to only an additional 2 trillion per anum would be quite acceptable. And as to opening a new line of credit, when the Treasury can simply exchange there Notes and Bonds with the Federal Reserve for Federal Reserve Notes, the credit window is always open. But we shall reap what we sow.

My hyper 250 loads on critters with a temper? Only from a helocopter with an unlimited number of rounds.

But I did read something interesting the other day but can't vouge for the veracity. Back in the late 50s early 60s, apparently Roy Weatherby worked with some branch of the defense dept. with the goal being to create a rifle cartridge that would push a 50gr. bullet at velocities in excess of 7000 fps for the purpose of testing the latest types of armour plating. The end result. The 378 magnum case that I believe is the only Weatherby case (other than the 224) that is not derived from some version of a H&H magnum case. Now if I had one of those wildcats firing U238 or tungsten bullets, I just might take on one of them heavy biters with a high velocity pill. I don't give up easily.

FP

fprefect, here is a photo of a .429 magnum round flanked by a .475 Linebaugh on the left, and a .500 Linebaugh on the right. Sorry for the poor photo quality. Just wanted you to have an idea about what we have been talking about. No need for expansion!

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
fprefect, here is a photo of a .429 magnum round flanked by a .475 Linebaugh on the left, and a .500 Linebaugh on the right. Sorry for the poor photo quality. Just wanted you to have an idea about what we have been talking about. No need for expansion!

Yep, they kind of makes old Dirty Harry's 44 look like a rimfire by comparison. Got my first look at the 460 S&W this morning when I went to pick up some primers I've had on order and wish I had never touched it. Now I want one of the darn things. Well everyone needs to buy something they really don't need at least once a year.

We may have had a very important misunderstanding when it cames to my zanny high velocity, light bullet theory when fired from my 22/378 wildcat (or similar beast firing light high vel. pills) at velocities of over 7000 fps. That being expansion. I want NO expansion. Zero, if that's possible, using Tungsten or Uranium alloyed with small amounts of Titanium and Niobium bullets, both of which are approx. twice the weight of lead making for some rather "funny" lookding 50-55 gr. projectiles. But I have a possible workaround should the low ballistic coefficient numbers become a problem.

So that leads us to what effect a non expanding 55 gr bullet traveling at 7000 fps would have on the the skull of a cape buff. Any penetration into the brain cavity should mean close to an instant kill. The Air Force chose to go with a high vel Uranium alloy bullet of unknown weight for the Gau 8 30mm in the A-10 Avenger tank killer aircraft which depending upon the round in use can penetrate over 24" of steel at 500 meters.

Still trying to prove there is more than one way to skin a cat while standing on one's head with one hand tied.

But seriously if I every get the chance to go after one of the big 5, I believe I might have more than a few reservations toting my 22/378 across the plains of Africa hoping to put one 55 gr. pill into the brain of some POed and dangerous beast. There is no doubt your big cal. heavy slower velocity will work. The prove is in the pudding and I don't dare argue with that.

I have heard claims that some hunters have taken the "Big Five" using only the .257 Weatherby Magnum. Not sure of the veracity, but if true, my 22/378 should easily prove adaquate. I know the 378 has been successfully necked down to 6.5mm, so it's only a matter of time until we could see a 22/378, although the cost of replacement barrels could prove to be an "unexpected" expense, as could the grenading of the complete rifle.

F. Prefect

7,000 fps is inviting bullet failure......If it strikes heavy bone, you may just wound and piss the animal off -- not good if the animal bites!

Roy Weatherby was convinced that velocity was the end-all be-all. You need to read some of his early writings -- especially when he claimed that his .257 could kill animals from shock no matter where you hit them. He was a loon in my humble opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
7,000 fps is inviting bullet failure......If it strikes heavy bone, you may just wound and piss the animal off -- not good if the animal bites!

Roy Weatherby was convinced that velocity was the end-all be-all. You need to read some of his early writings -- especially when he claimed that his .257 could kill animals from shock no matter where you hit them. He was a loon in my humble opinion.

Yeah probably any barrel with a greater than 1 in 16 twist would no doubt send any conventional jacket material flying as soon as the bullet left the bore, but since Uranium can be alloyed to produce about any hardness needed, I'll have to go with no jacket at all. With Uranium having twice the weight of lead, it should make for an interesting shape in a 55 grain bullet, but a reduction in the U238 within the alloy would probably need to be reduced, producing a lighter alloy but that should add to the hardness of the bullet while still having a density much greater that pure lead.

And then there's the problem of what kind of pressure a cartridge such as 22/378 would produce. I have yet to find out if Weatherby and the defence dept were even able to achieve their 7000+ fps, and if they did was brass able to withstand the pressure?

That being said, if the alloy used for the bullets in the Gau 8 can hold together through 18+ inches of steel, a buff's skull shouldn't be a problem.

Roy Weatherby a loon?? It's the once in a lifetime big game hunter who he sold thousands of rifles to with an inch of freebore that began to lose MV and accuracy after only 500 rounds or so are the real loons. Roy just laughed all the way to bank.

I fully realize that this crazy idea is probably just that, crazy, but if the right bullet material could be found that would neither expand or explode on impact, it might not be that crazy at all. After all, the primary reason Weatherby developed his oversized cartridges was to produce near instantaneous kills of most game animals and for the most part suceeded.

The 22/378, a single 55gr bullet dropping a Cape Buffalo in it's tracks. A wonder what kind of recoil in might produce? Probably a WHOLE LOT more than most people might expect.

FP

The idea is to disrupt the vitals yet not blow up all the meat. High velocity and shock can be deadly but can also work against you.
I have neighbors that insist on using 7mm and .300 mags on deer at 25 to 50 yards. Every season they lose a deer or two.
I helped find a 9 point shot with a 7mm mag. He quit bleeding in 100 yards so we had to search by spreading out, found it by luck over a mile from where it was hit. The fella shot through brush so thick I could not see his stand from where the deer was???? Bad hit in the ham.
Both hams were destroyed and the hole was big enough to put your head in, yet the deer went over a mile. The torn tissue sealed and stopped the bleeding to the outside so there was no blood trail at all. All he got was the head, shoulders and back straps. Almost buzzard bait but for luck.
His next buck was lost, we tracked it about 1000 yards before it quit bleeding. Just tiny drops here and there, many hours spent searching. His next buck went almost as far and was stolen by a yucker sitting the other side of the road.
His father uses a .300 and they spend hours searching for his deer too. Yes they do kill a bunch too but not the point. I tell them to buy a 30-30 but all they believe in is power. Our deer are shot close and are not big deer either. Even their muzzle loaders are inlines stuffed with 150 gr of pellets. All of their deer are bloodshot rags.
Now another friend shot his deer with a 30-30, dropped it on the spot. He did not gut deer in the field but would take them home and hang them first. We were swinging the deer into his truck in my driveway and I heard something bounce down my driveway. Took the flashlight and found the deer's heart. The hole in the deer was large enough that the heart flew out.
Funny that deer I shoot with the .44 go about 30 yards max, lungs are gone and I have no meat damage.
I have over 360 deer killed with about everything except a spear, lost some too, too many in fact. Seems as if my losses were caused by three things. Deer angle I did not see, deer movement at the shot or boolits too fast.
I have a friend in VA that gets special tags, he makes me look sick with deer numbers, killing no less then 17 a season. He feeds poor people after filling his freezer. Yet he still tells me of deer lost with his rifle.
I gave up rifles after seeing my deer bloodshot from neck to tail.
There is more to it then ME and shock.

Some forget that powder only has a certain expansion ratio as it burns, to reach a velocity that is limited by this expansion ratio. Chamber pressure has nothing to do with final velocity. When gas can only expand at a fixed rate, super high velocity can't be reached. A light projectile can outpace the gas expansion and if the barrel is too long, the bullet will actually slow down from bore friction. Use more powder so it prolongs the push and velocity can be maintained to the muzzle but you are still limited by expansion ratio.
I owned a .300 Weatherby with a 26" "B" barrel. I free floated and bedded it. Nothing I shot in it went over 1/2" at 100 yards. I head shot chucks with it out to 550 yards. I used the 150 gr Hornady at around 3500 fps. 88 gr of surplus 4831. A tribute to Roy is that he made the strongest, most accurate rifles and they still make a super rifle.
The Mark 5 was so strong, they stuffed a 180 bullet into the bore a ways and fired a full power round behind it with no damage to the action. Both bullets just shot out and the bolt opened by hand.
I have nothing bad to say about Roy, but would I shoot a deer with the .300? NO WAY! Well, maybe at 600 yards!
It still comes down to bullet choice, range and size of the animal. Where the Weatherby excelled was at distance.

Mausers are sronger..........

now, it wasn't from "shock" but roy killed a cape buff with one shot with his .257 weatherby, and with the right bullets no doubt could kill anything. just not from "shock". this is something i wouldn't try with a .257 roberts or the like. that velocity counts for something. my uncle has used a .257 roy for elk for years and sure gets some impressive results. that said, i don't like destroying ALL my animals meat either.

whitworth......btw....that has to be the absolute smallest .44 mag bullet i've ever seen. 180 grs? anyway, the point made is a good one but the beauty of the .44 is the ability to go from a 180gr people stopper up to 340 grains. a 310 gr wfn would still be obviously smaller than the two linebaughs but not nearly so much so.

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
now, it wasn't from "shock" but roy killed a cape buff with one shot with his .257 weatherby, and with the right bullets no doubt could kill anything. just not from "shock". this is something i wouldn't try with a .257 roberts or the like. that velocity counts for something. my uncle has used a .257 roy for elk for years and sure gets some impressive results. that said, i don't like destroying ALL my animals meat either.

whitworth......btw....that has to be the absolute smallest .44 mag bullet i've ever seen. 180 grs? anyway, the point made is a good one but the beauty of the .44 is the ability to go from a 180gr people stopper up to 340 grains. a 310 gr wfn would still be obviously smaller than the two linebaughs but not nearly so much so.

Actually, Roy did write about shooting animals in normally non-lethal places and the animal succombing to shock. He was wrong. If speed really counts for so much, why are most stopping rifles in Africa slinging heavy lead at moderate velocities? The question of the ages. Roy was a salesman, promoting his products and thereby, his concepts.

Actually, that's a 210 grain Silvertip. It's all I had at my finger tips. Actually, the 280 grainer I use in one of my Model 29s isn't a whole lot bigger! In fact it's almost cute! Bullet weight doesn't make up for the fact that it is only .429-inches in diameter. On game, the .475 and .500 are a whole lot bigger in effect. Even Ray Charles could see that! Using a .429 magnum on big game is like asking a boy to do a man's work -- it can be done, has been done, and will continue to be done, but alas, you can do better.

Tradmark -- send me the photos and I will post them.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Some forget that powder only has a certain expansion ratio as it burns, to reach a velocity that is limited by this expansion ratio. Chamber pressure has nothing to do with final velocity. When gas can only expand at a fixed rate, super high velocity can't be reached. A light projectile can outpace the gas expansion and if the barrel is too long, the bullet will actually slow down from bore friction. Use more powder so it prolongs the push and velocity can be maintained to the muzzle but you are still limited by expansion ratio.
I owned a .300 Weatherby with a 26" "B" barrel. I free floated and bedded it. Nothing I shot in it went over 1/2" at 100 yards. I head shot chucks with it out to 550 yards. I used the 150 gr Hornady at around 3500 fps. 88 gr of surplus 4831. A tribute to Roy is that he made the strongest, most accurate rifles and they still make a super rifle.
The Mark 5 was so strong, they stuffed a 180 bullet into the bore a ways and fired a full power round behind it with no damage to the action. Both bullets just shot out and the bolt opened by hand.
I have nothing bad to say about Roy, but would I shoot a deer with the .300? NO WAY! Well, maybe at 600 yards!
It still comes down to bullet choice, range and size of the animal. Where the Weatherby excelled was at distance.

This is a very good point and is the reason why the max speed of a rocket launched into orbit can never exceed the velocity of the rapidly expanding gas being propelled out the rear created by the chemical reaction produced by the combining of typically hydrogen and oxygen. The same principal should apply to the maximum speed that ANY bullet can be "launched". Getting a bullet to exit the barrel at the exact moment that the max. gas expansion velocity is reach looks to be a very tricky problem, with a longer barrel probably producing the best results. But as many have pointed out, high velocity is probably best used to increase the max. range that the rifle is effective.

Being primarily a benchrest shooter with most of my hunting experience being with a shotgun with not near the large game rifle hunting experience of many who have posted in this thread, I have learned a great deal and thank all who participated.

I kind of hate to admit it as I think it is possible to produced fast kills with light bullets, but the problems with the makeup and construction of such a bullet that would be required, probably makes the slower and heavier bullet a much better choice at the ranges most dangerous game is taken.

In one of my earlier posts if it seemed that I was critical of Roy Weatherby and his rifles, this is not the case. The critisim was directed at their misuse.

FP

This is an interesting article about high velocity projectiles. Light Gas Guns

23 THOUSAND feet per second. That's FAST! I read an article once of a test at 40,000fps where the projectile was made of mylar, but I have no idea why.

Having said that, big and slow does work just fine. The pictures below are 1.007" 2000 grain bullets from my elephant that had a muzzle velocity of 1125fps. The one on the right punched a neat hole through 1" thick hide and was under the skin on the far side after about 4ft of travel. No need to shoot them faster. The one on the left hit bone, but I don't know where in the interior it came to rest.

4-bore, Bob?!

Yep! When I was thinking of what bullet to use I reasoned that flat point cast lead bullets penetrate so well in the 1100-1400fps range in my 44 (and 50AK rifle) that there was no reason to reinvent the wheel. The only difference from a handgun round was scale. No need to expand as pointed out above, they penetrate like no tomorrow, and hard cast lead is plenty strong enough to resist deformation at these speeds. I cut a new nose plug for a mold to give a .8" meplat and really like this bullet. The 75 on the nose is the charge of Blue Dot. I've used over 100, but 75 is easier to shoot and enough to do the job.
Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Omnivorous_Bob:
Yep! When I was thinking of what bullet to use I reasoned that flat point cast lead bullets penetrate so well in the 1100-1400fps range in my 44 (and 50AK rifle) that there was no reason to reinvent the wheel. The only difference from a handgun round was scale. No need to expand as pointed out above, they penetrate like no tomorrow, and hard cast lead is plenty strong enough to resist deformation at these speeds. I cut a new nose plug for a mold to give a .8" meplat and really like this bullet. The 75 on the nose is the charge of Blue Dot. I've used over 100, but 75 is easier to shoot and enough to do the job.
Bob

That's awesome, Bob! Thanks for posting!

Thanks for posting pics of those devastators.

Your gun gives me a headache just reading about it.

2000 gr and 75 gr of Blue Dot !!!!!!!!!!!!

oh.....i'm well aware of some of roy's nonsense. and i do love his rifles. i have many big bore rifles. don't shoot them near as much as i shoot the pistols though. i think the reason so many big bore rifles that "shoot big projectiles at moderate velocities" are used is somewhat misleading. rifle and stopping rifle aficianados on the big bore forum are fanatics about squeezing a little bit more velocity out of their rifles. there's all these magic velocities needed for dangerous game which is all bunk imho. my 460 weatherby is by far more destructive on game than my bud's .458 wm and more so than his 50AK. don't misread what i'm saying ....velocity is not the be all and end all. but it does matter. when and where and with what size bullet is what's up for debate. if velocity didn't matter why not shoot a cape buff with your 500 linebaugh at 700fps with a 535 gr load. there's a point where it works, a point where it doesn't, and a point where it's too fast for the bullet to hold together or for the shooter to hold themselves together. my casull hits much much harder than my buds .45 colt. the only diff is the velocity. if it didn't matter a .475 linebaugh would be not needed at all, just a .480 ruger. the diff. just the velocity. imho once you can kill the animal you got enough. i admit the .460 weatherby is impressive and it's also not needed. when i'm seriously rifle hunting i use my 375 HH.

Actually, the current thinking among many serious handgun hunters and the smiths who build large bore handguns is that 1,200 fps is about optimal. So, .480 Ruger velocities for the .475 Linebaugh.

The .45 Colt loads we have worked out don't seem to be losing anything to the Casull save for the noise and the recoil. In my opinion, the only advantage the .454 has to offer is the ability to shoot a bit heavier bullet -- like the 360 grainers. Hell, I have used 400 grainers in my .454 and 1,300 fps was about maximum. The .460 Smith I have been playing with was throwing a 400 grain pill at more than 1,500 fps, and quite frankly wasn't all that impressive. I truly believe there is a "dead zone" -- for lack of a better term, between 1,400 to 1,900 fps where you really don't gain anything.

What does "destructive on game" really mean? Larger wound channel? Weatherbys were notorious for bullet failure for a long time as the bullet technology of the day was lagging behind the velocity potential of Weatherby's cartridges.

The PHs I know are not trying to eek out more velocity. In fact, many are using the old .458 win mag and ironically not the .460 which is frankly not popular at all. Too big a case, too much velocity that isn't necessary. What about all of the PHs and DG hunters that are using NE catridges? The spec velocities were optimistic at best and tested with much longer test barrels than the doubles that actually made production. Guess what, even at speeds just over 1,900 fps, they killed large, dangerous game with aplomb.

Whitworth was with us when the mailman's daughter shot a large doe with a .223. Nice frontal heart shot. We searched far and wide and never found a single drop of blood, she was dejected big time.
Later I found the deer over 100 yards from where she shot it. I gutted it and found a lot of internal damage but it was shallow. I backtracked the deer and there was no blood anywhere.
I called him and he came and picked up the deer. I also shot one with my revolver after I found theirs, mine went 15 yards and skidded on his nose.
I made him buy a 30-30 for her.

and, for whatever reason there's been several failures of 600 nitros to penetrate frontal brain shots on elephants. that evidently quit happening when it was found the velocity was 1800fps at 900gr. why this was the case i don't know, there was quite a large thread about it on the big bore forum awhile back. interesting the big pistols i know of that have killed an ele from a frontal brain shot, the .454 and .475 did not have this problem. go figure.

btw, the problem ceased when the rounds were loaded a bit hotter.

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
and, for whatever reason there's been several failures of 600 nitros to penetrate frontal brain shots on elephants. that evidently quit happening when it was found the velocity was 1800fps at 900gr. why this was the case i don't know, there was quite a large thread about it on the big bore forum awhile back. interesting the big pistols i know of that have killed an ele from a frontal brain shot, the .454 and .475 did not have this problem. go figure.

Bullet failure, tradmark, or rather a failure to track straight. Those round nosed solids have never been great and prone to veer off course. I am pretty sure it was less a function of speed than nose profile. Now, load it with a good flat-nosed bullet, and things change dramatically.

they were, at least in this instance, were using flatpoints, as i think they've finally begun to pickup that that is the way to go. oddly enough, in several of my african hunting books going way back in time, the .600 nitro was said to have less penetration than the .577 and their reasoning was that the .600 had flatpointed solids originally. didn't know that but found it interesting.

i truly think it's matching velocity with bullet type. what's ideal with a 280grain wfn is not what's ideal for a 360 grain lfn versus a 400 grain wfn. i prefer 440grain wfn for my .475 works great and tracks well. i think in the .500's i'd want 500 or over at a more sedate velocity than what i run the .475 at and that at a slightly more sedate velocity than what i run the casull loads at.

The original Kynoch loadings all had round nosed solids. Pick up Taylor's African Rifles and Cartridges and there are detailed descriptions and diagrams of all of the original NE loadings and none of them evr had flat-nosed solids.

"I truly appreciate your offer to take that dog hunting trip and I completely respect your opinions"


Bawahahaha!
.
.
.
wait... I have actually shot two dogs right off my chicken coop...

never mind.
carry on...

First post since 2004?? What have you been doing?

working and lurking...mostly in other forums like singleactions and handgunhunt...but mostly working... I have months where I just don't use the internet much...comes from living in my van when I'm on the road.

I actually registered the first time in ..01 I think...

yes, back when the big 45-70 debate was going on in the Africa forum...

quote:

Originally posted by tdog49:
yes, back when the big 45-70 debate was going on in the Africa forum...

That's a recurring theme!

quote:

Originally posted by Littledragon:
I am going to be hunting for whitetail here in Missouri with my Super Redhawk with a 9 1/2 barrel. My shots will be 50 yards or less from a tree stand, I want to use AA#5 with Hornady XTPs either 180 grain or 240 grain bullets. I have loaded a bunch of 180 XTPs with 15 grains of AA#5 just to practice with. I would like to know if anyone else has used #5 in the 44 mag for hunting and if so what your recommendations are. Thanks!

I live in SW MO and may try for a deer this season with my 44 rather than .357 but it won't be with a 180 grain bullet on top of 28+ grs. of H110. Had one of those 10 1/2" Ruger Blackhawks at the time and all I remember was one huge orange fireball and was pickin' H-110 out of my face for 2 or 3 days. Dropped the charge down to 24 1/2 grs. and a 240 gr. bullet and that's the load I use today in my old Model 29-2 Nickel(8 1/2) with hardly any muzzle flash at all. Oh what a difference of only 60 grs. can make when it comes to keeping the bullet inside the barrel long enough for the powder to burn where it was intended. Ouch.

F. Prefect

quote:

Originally posted by Littledragon:
I am going to be hunting for whitetail here in Missouri with my Super Redhawk with a 9 1/2 barrel. My shots will be 50 yards or less from a tree stand, I want to use AA#5 with Hornady XTPs either 180 grain or 240 grain bullets. I have loaded a bunch of 180 XTPs with 15 grains of AA#5 just to practice with. I would like to know if anyone else has used #5 in the 44 mag for hunting and if so what your recommendations are. Thanks!

\

I've used a 180 gr 44 bullet on one deer, a 200 gr Nosler is a better choice. No real need for the 240's on deer unless you like recoil.

quote:

I've used a 180 gr 44 bullet on one deer, a 200 gr Nosler is a better choice. No real need for the 240's on deer unless you like recoil.

Damn. I just finished loading 10 rounds of .44 magnum...300gr. hardcast bullets at 1250 fps (chrono'ed). Better pull the bullets!

Seriously though, I expect to encounter hogs while deer hunting in Texas. I'll take some heavy 300's over a lighter bullet any day for Hogs. But if I knew it was deer only, a 240 is just fine.

quote:

Originally posted by rnovi:

quote:

I've used a 180 gr 44 bullet on one deer, a 200 gr Nosler is a better choice. No real need for the 240's on deer unless you like recoil.

Damn. I just finished loading 10 rounds of .44 magnum...300gr. hardcast bullets at 1250 fps (chrono'ed). Better pull the bullets!

Seriously though, I expect to encounter hogs while deer hunting in Texas. I'll take some heavy 300's over a lighter bullet any day for Hogs. But if I knew it was deer only, a 240 is just fine.

Good way of looking at it, Robert!

quote:

Originally posted by fprefect:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Forgive me for adding something political, but the current POTUS is adding exponentially to our debt under the guise of fixing the economy. Do you open a new line of credit when you are burried in credit debt already??

Sorry!

Anyhow, we can all agree to disagree, as long as you agree with me -- everyone is entitled to my opinion. Just kidding!

You wouldn't want to use that hyper .22-250 load on anything big and heavy that bites. JMHO.

Yeah I did the math a couple of months ago and should interests rates return only briefly to the levels of the late 70s, all of our current tax revenues (including the SS payroll taxes) would fall short of the amount needed just to service our current 15 trillion dollar national debt and we would need to borrow er, print aditional funds just to pay the interest. And as you correctly point out the POTUS seems to believe that holding the growth of the national debt to only an additional 2 trillion per anum would be quite acceptable. And as to opening a new line of credit, when the Treasury can simply exchange there Notes and Bonds with the Federal Reserve for Federal Reserve Notes, the credit window is always open. But we shall reap what we sow.

My hyper 250 loads on critters with a temper? Only from a helocopter with an unlimited number of rounds.

But I did read something interesting the other day but can't vouge for the veracity. Back in the late 50s early 60s, apparently Roy Weatherby worked with some branch of the defense dept. with the goal being to create a rifle cartridge that would push a 50gr. bullet at velocities in excess of 7000 fps for the purpose of testing the latest types of armour plating. The end result. The 378 magnum case that I believe is the only Weatherby case (other than the 224) that is not derived from some version of a H&H magnum case. Now if I had one of those wildcats firing U238 or tungsten bullets, I just might take on one of them heavy biters with a high velocity pill. I don't give up easily.

FP

The 378 Weatherby case is nothing more than a 416 Rigby case with a belt added.

Roy never reached 7000 FPS, If one could barrel life would be extremely shortand carbon build up in the throat area would be sever

bfr shooter, we don't always agree on everything, but you're absolutely spot on the 30/30 recommendation you made earlier on deer. just finished a season of ranch meat hunts for axis and fallow deer this year. brought the kiddos and a friend and his oldest son. so far, the most impressive results from any of the rifles are from a small youth model marlin gifted to the kiddos from a good friend in 30/30. this year not one shot that wasn't a bang flop, all through the shoulder, the guides thought they had to have been spine shot but no...through the shoulder. impressive enough my 12 yo son wants a bfr 30/30. i'm gonna get it for him.

It is a wonderful cartridge for deer. I am happy to see you agree and wish all of you good hunting.