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I've taken all of 2 deer with handguns, but it makes no difference whatsoever what the shape of the weapon might be when discussing this matter. I wish I would have had the chance to take a large trophy animal with the .458 Lott, or even fire such a powerful cartridge with 6000 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. But if energy is not an important component in calculating the "power" (I'll use a different terminology) of such a cartridge, why did you even mention it in your post. I've said all about I care to with regard to the matter of energy in calculating the "penetration" or "power" of any cartridge. I freely admit I could be wrong, but if that's the case, so would numerous reloading manuals and other books or material that reference "muzzle energy" within their content. Bullet weight and design as well as the type of game also play important rolls in the penetrating potential of any projectle, but it's the energy the projectle "carries" that makes it all happen. Otherwise the velocity of the bullet fired from your .458 Lott would make no difference whatsoever. F. Prefect In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and generally been regarded as a bad move......Douglas Adams | |||
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In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and generally been regarded as a bad move......Douglas Adams | |||
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You are wrong. I have a degree in engineering and am licensed as one in several states. So please dispense with the "bowling ball held at waist level" potential and kinetic energy example. I have worked that one in many forms many times. I never called you a name, just pointed out what one may look like making such statements as you did. I tried to move the discussion to the appropriate topic. Energy is used by the ammo and reloading business to sell "bigger and better" rounds, but mostly because it is all most people seem to understand; which appears to be your case. Congratulations on your two deer with a handgun; I hope you have many more successes and memorable trips afield. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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If I mistook the statement in one of your earlier posts of "A .750 cal 1,000 grain bullet at 300 fps? Even the Brits knew better than that. I wouldn't worry so much about looking like a wise ass with that kind of remark. I believe looking like a dumb ass would be more likely to occur" to be a form of name calling, than I owe you an apology. After re-reading most of the previous posts, it's quite possible we are attempting to express similar ideas but approaching it from different angles so to speak. As I stated earlier, it's probably no accident that almost all reloading manuals attempt to express the energy of a particular projectile traveling at a specific velocity in terms of ft/lbs and this form of expressing "energy" is an accurate one although when speaking of penetration of various mediums including game will vary depending also upon the weight of the bullet and the type of bullet being used. A commonly used formula seen for the calculation of muzzle energy is weight of the bullet multiplied by the velocity in ft/sec squared, devided by 450,240. The goffy looking number is a kind of conversion factor required due to the fact the units of measurement are not the same when expressing the weight of the bullets, normally expressed in grains and not pounds making the arrival of a number in ft/lbs impossible without using this conversion number. I will go as far as agreeing that it is very possible that a heavier slower moving solid projectile will give a greater penetration than a ligher faster moving solid bullet with both bullets having exactly the same muzzle energy as calculated using the above formula or taken from any of many reloading manuals. Amd conversely it may be possible the lighter faster moving projectile could give a greater penetration. But reloading manuals do not kill elephants, buffs, deer, or ground hogs, so without real physical comparisons from past kills I would say it would be impossible to determine beforehand which bullet/velocity combination would likely produce the best results. Again, if I mistook the above mentioned comment in an earlier post to be a kind of slur, I apologize. I've spent years on unmoderated usenet forums where name calling is an art but grew tired of the crap several years ago and it wsa NEVER my intention for this discussion to regress to that level, particularly when one party involved also appears to be the moderator.  F. Prefect In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and generally been regarded as a bad move......Douglas Adams | |||
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I mentioned the calculated energy of the .458 Lott to make my point -- that it is a useless figure and a poor number to measure a cartridge's effectiveness. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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fprefect, No harm done. I do not recall ever saying velocity is not important. One must have some level of velocity to make things work. I and Whitworth stated muzzle energy is not important. This is a view we obviously share with that elephant killing Irishman, Taylor. I also have a disdain for the so-called energy dump. Try looking at this situation as a conservation of momentum versus a conservation of energy. Bullet weight and diameter are the constants. Velocity is an ever diminishing value in the equation. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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I know I should not reply and put this matter to rest but since momentum has been brought into the mix, we now have apples and oranges. Well sort of. I have always thought of momentum as a resistance to a change in motion, and the conservation of momentum just shows that momentum is never lost but just transferred from one object to another e.g. if the big lorry runs into a car then all the momentum will be transferred to the car. Momentum can be calc. simply by multiplying mass times velocity p=mv and in this case the velocity is NOT squared as is the case when calculating kinetic energy meaning each time the vel is doubled, the KE increases by a factor of 4. But I just had a brain fart. Might we not agree that the Force produced by the rapid burning of smokeless powder is proportional, although not necessarily directly,(due to the necessity to square the resultant increase in velocity) to the weight of the powder charge. I know you don't prefer the term energy, but looking into those good old reloading manuals, it's evident that something increases every time additional powder is added to a load and it appears the higher the vel. goes, the greater the amount of aditional powder that is needed to gain each subsequent 100fps of velocity meaning it is not directly proportional but appears to be increasing by the square of each increase in velocity. shi*, I have the feeling I'm losing my train of thought. Oh yes, the amount of increasing powder charges and the changes in the force or whatever you what to call it of the rapidly moving projectile fired form the gun. Hell I don't know, but I am almost certain that the square of the velocity must be used in making the calculation of KE while the momentum always remain directly proportional to it's change and is always conserved in one form or another. But I'm getting tired and think I will leave it with this and see if you agree with at least part of it. Increases in the charge weight will always result in a more powerful round and the amount of H*U*R*T* applied to the unfortunate animal. Squared. Maybe. I'm sure you have realized by now that most or part of this was sort of tongue in cheek and not ment to dispute any of your earlier statements or beliefs whether I agreed with them or not. FP In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and generally been regarded as a bad move......Douglas Adams | |||
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working as an ER physician i have gotten to intimately see the difference b/w high energy and large rounds. on a trauma team ask me which i would rather see, a solid 10mm round to the chest or a small itty bitty .223 softpoint to the chest. that one's really a no brainer, that said, a more comparable example is the difference b/w a .40 cal and a .45 acp to the chest. the wound channel of the .40 cal and internal damage done is much more impressive in the cases i've worked and in discussing the cases with the trauma surgeons whom i have accompanied to the OR. to say there is NO energy dump is not accurate to say the least. the amount of this present is very diminished as the size of the creature is increased but the results i have seen mirror that in game animals. | |||
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Are you comparing a .40 with an expanding bullet versus a .45 round ball? "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Here we go again with paper figures! Muzzle energy, energy "DUMP." What trash. Here we are, handgun hunters getting Weatherby figures thrown at us. Doesn't anyone know the difference? Then the analogy of a thrown rock---WOW. What hurts more, a pebble to the head or a bowling ball? Throw the pebble hard so it has the same energy of the bowling ball and some think there is no difference! I want TWO holes from my revolvers, NEVER one hole. I want a large PRIMARY wound channel and could care less about a large secondary. Boolit/bullet weight and construction are important and what the projectile does in the animal is even more important. Energy or dump is a moot point with a handgun, it is just not there. Neither will kill any faster. Let us look at rifle bullets and the years and years spent looking for expansion without bullet breakup so penetration is not lost. You can still use the wrong bullet in the wrong game animal and just because it has more energy, it's effect can be real bad. Why does anyone compare a deadly bullet in a person with a deadly bullet in an animal? Both need different bullets. Experience with all game animals is the only teacher here. The best handgun hunters know what to use and toss those energy figures in the shredder where they belong. The very worst thing a handgun hunter can do is to look for the fastest load based on energy, bullet breakup and lack of penetration. Fprefect, load a 180 gr .44 bullet as fast as you can get it out of a rifle and go shoot a buf with it. The massive energy at the muzzle can allow many of us a lot of visits to your hospital room or the funeral! Throw out the paper work. Many here have told you the way it is in the real world, yet you debate them without real world experience. | |||
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whithworth, i am not comparing hardball .45 ammo i am comparing hollowpoints vs. hollowpoint. hardball .45 ammo makes a very poor poor woundchannel by comparison. sorry but the direction went towards deer at one point and a 200 pound mammal is a 200 pound mammal no matter how you slice it. lynn thompson IS one of the BEST handgun hunters period and he doesn't at all agree with what you're saying right now 100% so there truly are a few differing opinions. i have had the best luck with barnes bullets period, and had good luck with other expandables with an occasional failure, but i have had several hard cast failures from reputable ammo makers and feel most comfortable with what I have seen. of course, i guess that's why this argument has never ever been settled. | |||
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Lynn Thompson is one hell-of-a shot and a very good hunter, but one disenting opinion on bullet choice is just that, one opinion. That Hornady load only runs 1,150 fps for a calculated 881 lb-ft of ME, yet it still puts large animals down. I don't know how this supports your energy argument.......  That video is a clinic in shot placement still being the most important issue, yet penetration absolutely needs to be adequate. I can only imagine he would really be hell on wheels if he hunted with a true big-bore loaded with heavy hardcasts instead of a .429 magnum. I admire the hell out of that guy."Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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you're right, it's just one opinion, but lynn's is as valid as anyones and perhaps more so due to the number of game animals shot. how many have taken elephant and rhino and the number of buff, both cape and water buff that he has? shot placement is key for ANY caliber. to say if he used a larger bore hardcast non expanding slug it would've somehow been more impressive is conjecture. perhaps, but perhaps not having as large a wound channel would've required more shots and not had them go down as quick. there's plenty of other vids that would support that as well. my .40 and .45 bullets example are from trying to put the plumbing back together when someone has been shot, not through any conjecture. it's fun to discuss the thought energy doesn't matter to a trauma surgeon. fun to watch. anway, a great example of velocity and energy mattering is comparing the same load shot by a pistol and then a rifle. even in the linebaugh tests the .45 colt loads didn't break 40" until the velocity broke 1300fps. (not that i'm advocating the scientific nature of those tests.) the casull loads, if you throw out the outliers like you would in any scientific calculation averaged 10 inches greater than the .45 colts using similiar bullets at a lower velocity. 454's averaged 45.2", 500linebaughs averaged 40.16" and 475Linebaughs averaged 43.5" (once again throwing out the low and high extremes) and in nearly every case the furthest penetrating round was also near the top of the velocity numbers for a given caliber. comparing the belt mountain solids in .44 mag. a 300 grain .44 at 1330fps penetrated 36" and the same load out of the rifle at 1715 fps went 45". the 500 linebaugh's penetration went up in every case as the velocity went north of 1200fps, it didn't crack 40" of penetration until velocity broke 1200fps. using hardcast bullets penetration was a slight bit less with the 500smith, but......using a belt mountain solid with no deformation, the smith went up in penetration. using the .45 colt to casull as a continuum of velocity in similiar bullets the penetration got greater and greater the faster the bullet was pushed until the limits of the bullet were reached. pushing the bm punch faster just increased penetration. there's no way near enough data to say one caliber is superior to another but the trends over every caliber as well show that velocity increased until a threshold was reached and bullets deformed. whether energy creates a larger wound channel or not, depends on your own experiences and will be debated till the end of time, but each big bore has it's own qualities that make it superior in some area. depending on what area you care about depends on which one you should get. | |||
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Hey, how did I get included in this argument. The last time I shot a 180 gr .429 bullet out of 44 magnum seated on 25 grs. of H110, the last thing I remember was one huge orange fireball in front of me and I was picking unburned grains of powder out of my face for two or three days, and that was with a 10 1/2" barrel. 240s only for me, thank you. BTW, I wonder why no one has brought up the often agrued phenomenon of good old hydrostatic shock. That'll usually keep a thread going a bit longer although when speaking of taking large dangerous game, I would imagine the shooter is more concerned with perfect shot placement, with any thoughts of shock being of shock to the shooter's shoulder, although many hunters who have taken big game with some of the hardest kickers money can buy say they have no memory of the recoil at all. FP F. Prefect In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and generally been regarded as a bad move......Douglas Adams | |||
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btw, i'm not being dogmatic on energy anyway, i don't think it's the main parameter on game performance at all. i'm just not willing to dismiss it entirely. i think lynn thompson's .80 holes worked marvelously in those game animals and i don't think they "dumped" any energy at all. bet those rounds wouldn't penetrate more than 8" into wet newsprint yet they seemed to do the job as could as it could be done. | |||
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Ah, our moderator, MS Hitman -- who knows John Linebaugh fairly well, has attended many of Linebuagh's seminars. Just last year, another member, jwp475 (a friend and hunting partner) and MS Hitman shot jwp's .50 Alaskan revolver with a 525 grain LFN at 1,575 fps that went 51-inches. The very same bullet loaded by Buffalo Bore at 1,130 fps went 50-inches without wrist-snapping and almost unbearable recoil. The almost 500 fps increases amounted to nothing in penetration. In nearly all of the situations you cite, I will bet that the speed increases didn't result in increased penetration, but nose profile was the culprit. I implore you to call John Linebaugh and discuss it with him. He can be reached at: (307) 645-3332 "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by tradmark: i think lynn thompson's .80 holes worked marvelously in those game animals and i don't think they "dumped" any energy at all. QUOTE] Permanent wound channel? I respectfully doubt it. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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I really can't buy in to that one. Two identical bullets with one traveling 500fps faster IS going to make a difference. It may not be readily noticeable in every situation, but it's there, and if one hunts long enough, that additional 500fps is going to make a difference sooner or later, even if some hunters are not willing to admit it. FP In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and generally been regarded as a bad move......Douglas Adams | |||
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if there is bullet deformation the slower bullet very well may travel further and this is evidenced by the same tests by ashley emerson that while showing the velocity increased penetration with the belt mountain punch bullets. the penetration was nearly the same with the garrett 330's and substantially less with buffalo bore's 340 grain .44 mag load. penetration decreases were commensurate with bullet deformation. this is why the best 454 casull loads for penetration, i think, are always the corbon penetrators (which could have a much better nose) and the belt mountain punch bullets. i very much understand what john linebaugh has to say, and in many ways i totally agree, i just am a believer that there's a couple of paths to the same point and will question a dogmatic point of view especially when there's very little scientific info on it. and, whitworth, lets not forget the 50AK rifle when shot at nearly 2000fps with a punch bullet which would not deform exited the box on nearly every shot at one of the seminars. i would be surprised if the faster revolver load didn't deform the bullet but who knows as i was not there. btw, that load is pretty awesome on game and wouldn't feel undergunned on anything with it. | |||
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I don't feel undergunned in the least with the .500 Linebaugh loaded to 1,100 fps...... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Well, fprefect, you would be wrong. I would receommend you call John Linebaugh as well. Hitman will be a long later and he can tell the same story I did, about the .50 AK and the .500 Linebaugh. There are limitations to what a lead hardcast bullet can take before the nose profile gets distorted -- that's just a fact of life, an issue the Punch bullet doesn't have to face. That said, an expanding bullet is designed to distort by expanding, thereby severly limiting penetration. So, you start out with a large caliber, like a .475 or .500, or .510, and there is no need in the least for expansion. These hardcast flatpoints do a lot of damage between the holes...... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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In the case of the .50 Alaskan and .500 Linebaugh revolvers, about the only difference the extra 500 fps made was extra recoil and muzzle blast. Penetration depth was the same. Buy into or not, believe it or not; doesn't effect my opinion in the least. I've enough handgun kills under my belt to speak from experience and not theory, or what I have read in a book. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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yes they do inflict alot of damage. the soft points and various hollow points i have shot have for sure not had the potential for penetration as the hard casts, which in turn do not have the potential the punch bullets have. that said, after the first two buff i shot i had such excess penetration i have gone to something just as reliable if not more so but with a larger hole once it expands in the monometal barnes. if i needed max pen. in the case of africa's absolute largest i'd just use a punch bullet driven as hard and as fast as possible. i guess i just have not had a hard time getting two holes through game thus far and i've had plenty of experience myself. i would absolutely agree that 500 fps doesn't give you much........................if you stay with large hardcast lead bullets. decide to go with expandable bullets, which now there are several very reliable ones, or go with punch bullets and it does help with penetration. | |||
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If my hardcast bullet can go end to end on an animal at 1,200 fps, I see no point in paying $2.50 for a Punch bullet that I can drive faster, the exception being an elephant that is costing me five figures. Don't underestimate the damage a flat-point hardcast will do. This is the photo of a hog carcass. Note that the leg is missing. I puled it off with a gentle tug when skinning it. I sot thepig quatering away with my .454 Casull with a 400 grain WFN at a whopping 1,300 fps. Everything in between the holes was scrambled. Thy wreak havoc internally and don't just "zip through" as many would believe.  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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no hardcasts don't just make a little hole, they do more damage in between and nose profile is pretty important. i still get better wound channels with certain expandables. however, one could use the same logic and if you can go end to end in a game animal with a .44 or a .45 colt why would you spend more, i think it's cuz we can, it's just another way to add effectiveness to the caliber, and if i was on a budget i'd shoot everything with a .308, and messing around with this stuff is fun. i have a great load with a beartooth 340 grain .454 casull, great success with several .44 mag loads, federal and corbon barnes .454 loads, and one of my big hiking handgun favs in my .475 (sold for my 2 son's to get their casulls and me to get a shorter .475 bfr) and that last fav load is the buffalo bore .475 load 420 grain at 950 fps, great terminal performance and mellow on the wrists. well.......i can't leave well enough alone and am starting to mess with what i can do with the big smith's and bfr 45/70 and 444 loads. | |||
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Wet newspaper?. How many test shots were fired? I would think using wet newspaper a min. of 10 would be appropriate to obtain any meaningful data. Or better yet find a completely UNIFORM medium such as a piece of 3/8ths or 1/2" steel plate and I'll guarantee you'll see those extra 500pfs show up. I would agree completely you may not notice the differance on any given kill, but the day will come when that extra KE generated by by that extra 500fps will come in handy whether you're willing to admit or not. The same bullet traveling with an additional 500fps is a much more powerful round. Common Sense. FP In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and generally been regarded as a bad move......Douglas Adams | |||
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I don't need to call anyone to determine that bullet velocity makes a huge differance. If that were not valid, you would not even need a damn gun. Just chuck a few low vel. rocks at the darn things and see how well that works. FP In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and generally been regarded as a bad move......Douglas Adams | |||
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But the .475s on up make bigger holes...... I agree that the .429 needs help in the diameter department, but that's why I don't mess with them much any more. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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A .223 will punch through steel, and generally these revolvers won't. You haven't been playing much with revolvers, have you. Yes, wet newsprint. Are you not familiar with the Linebaugh seminars? I think you probably aren't as you don't know who John Linebaugh is, as most neophytes don't. Several seminars are held every year to test penetration. Wet newsprint isn't perfect, but the bullets are all facing the same medium, the same resistence, etc., on the same day. These tests have been performed ad nauseum and certain patters have emerged over the years. This is not a gathering of guys who don't hunt with revolvers......... Do some research. You know, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but you are being dogmatic, with two revolver kills under your belt and you are obviously one who buys into advertising hype. Wish you were closer so that we could introduce you to the wonderful world of big-bore revolvers. Hell, I'd even take you hog hunting....... You need to throw out what you know about rifle ballistics when discussing those of revolvers. We don't have the speed to create any hydraulic pressure -- period. But we do have diameter going for us. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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I truly appreciate your offer to take that dog hunting trip and I completely respect your opinions even though I may disagree with some. I believe our disagreements come the standpoint that you look at things from the practical standpoint (ain't nothin' wrong with that, if the quarry drops in it's tracks why bother to ask questions) while I tend to use a more analytical approach, the more powder under the same bullet, whether shot from a hardgun or rifle at the same velocity, once it leaves the bore IMO, it makes no differance whatsoever and the faster bullet is going to pack more punch so to speak although it may not even be noticeable with some kills. But it's been an interesting discussion and I come away with a new perspective whether I'm in agreement or not, and that's a good thing in my book, no mater how ya look at it. You've obviously taken many times the amount of game with either handgun or rifle, and the largest handgun I shoot is the .429 Rem 44 magnum and have yet to even bag a deer with it. So who knows, some day I may even move a litle closer to the practical approach. In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and generally been regarded as a bad move......Douglas Adams | |||
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You are basically calling me a simpleton. You would be completely wrong in assuming that my approach is not analytical. I have arrived at my position by trial and error. I am educated man who has studied this, tested ad nauseum, taken game, and I perform a necropsy on every single animal I shoot. I want to know what every bullet is doing or not doing as is the case some times. I would suggest you get yourself a copy of Modeling the Dynamics of Wound Trauma Incapacitation by Duncan McPherson as he has developed a model that will accurately predict the depth of penetration, and the diameter of the wound channel. He also explains why muzzle energy is irrelevant. And we will NEVER get rifle velocities from revolvers, so we have to rely on other attributes to achieve success. Think of the revolver bullet as a long range punch press (I believe John Linebaugh coined that phrase). That would be HOGS, as in wild boar, not dogs.....  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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That's not the case and I hope you realise it, and I was assuming that dogs were normally used when hunting wild hogs. I will always contend that bullet weight and velocity are the sole determining factors that a projectile will have on a target. Of course a rifle will always be capable of firing an identical projectile at a higher velocity and I don't see were I claimed otherwise. But I did claim that if identical bullets are fire from both a rifle and a pistol at the same velocity, once they have left the bore, their ballistics and KE are identical and if 2 identical game animals are struck by either bullet in the same location, the wounds would be IDENTICAL. I do not believe or was it my intent to call or imply you were some sort of simpleton?? and have no idea what gave you that idea. I believe what I believe and don't need to call any big game hunter as it would not change my veiws as would your views be changed if I suggested you call any number of experts in ballistics I could supply to you. We simply disagree, nothing more, nothing less. One minor addition. So we won't have to into twist and barrel lenghts in the above pistol/rifle example, also assume the bullets leave each firearm spinning at the same rpm. FP In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and generally been regarded as a bad move......Douglas Adams | |||
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This is what led me to draw that conclusion. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Wow, another one who's taken all of 2 deer, yet claims to be an expert velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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Understood. FP In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and generally been regarded as a bad move......Douglas Adams | |||
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I normally don't reply to such silly posts from someone jumping in with a comment that contains no meaningful content. But would you mind pointing out what claims you are referring to? In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and generally been regarded as a bad move......Douglas Adams | |||
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I agree, every single animal is a learning experience. With hundreds and hundreds of necropsies, I guess I should read more. Professor deer is stupid and will not die unless so many foot pounds are applied. I have the same problem making the left wing liberals living here look at both sides and think for themselves. Can't be done! Stupid breeds stupid, breeds stupid, over and over. | |||
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Oh boy, now I have magically become a left wing liberal. I have never claimed in any post to be an experienced hunter. The vast majority of my hunting experience has been with a 22 rimfine and a 12 ga. shotgun bagging quail and rabbits. The 2 deer I took are by far the largest game I have taken and you keep claiming that I have portrayed myself as some kind of expert. Where? What I AM is one of those crazys who spend years toting around 15 pound rifles with the goal being to punch one hole in a piece of paper with 5 6mm or .224 cal bullets. It's been fun. It's been frustrating a times to say the very least. All it did was express what I believe to be a correct opinion concerning KE and balistics and now I'm a left wing liberal. You guys can stick to your hunting and I'm staying on the bench which is why I thought this forum might be interesting in the first place. Guess not. F. Prefect In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and generally been regarded as a bad move......Douglas Adams | |||
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I think you should read my post again, I was referring to my neighbors being left wing. The analogy being they refuse to be taught or even discuss other then what they believe and they are allowed to breed and vote. Being you have not killed enough animals, you should listen to those that have killed a ton, then form opinions to cover all aspects. Every single one of us that hunts has something that does not work too good and something that is too much of a good thing so a rag is brought home to butcher instead of meat. The hardest combination is to find something that works best for each size animal and it's toughness. So far most that answer you are telling you to dump the books and figures. Your insistence and resistance to move beyond book learning will make it very hard for you to find anything interesting or to glean useful information. Your record is stuck on ME and KE. | |||
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That's cool. As was stated in a recent sticky authored by Hitman, we may just have to agree to disagree, at least on certain aspects of the issue You've killed more big game animals than I'll ever see, but I have seen the results of a 52 gr. benchrest pill with a much thicker jacket than any hunting bullet that would reduce expansion had on two separate whitetails. I personally loaded these for friend for not other reason than to see the results if he had the opportunity to use one at a range of under 100 yds. Shot from a 22-250 with a measured MV of 4060 fps, he was able to get TWO such shots. One a gut shot, the other in the head at ranges of less than 75 yds and it was devastation. Must have looked like one of R. Lee Ermey's prized watermelons upon impact. But I think we're probably talking apples and oranges. Very large mammals may be composed of 80% water, but they are a completely different medium that a gallon jug of water or an "Ermey melon." If heavy and slow works, I have no direct evidence that a faster moving projectile would have produced better rusults and of course can't dispute the outcome whice appear to have been clean kills. Sorry about the misunderstanding of your post. My political leanings tend to be in one direction and then the other, depending upon the issue. But of one issue I am fairly certain. Spending money we didn't have has probably put this country in a hole from which there is no escape short of the devaluation of the dollar and the resultant much higher rates of price inflation and a significant reduction in the standard of living for neanly all of us that will come with it. FP In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and generally been regarded as a bad move......Douglas Adams | |||
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