Thanks Alex and thanks, GS, I appreciate it.

Since this was a handgun post, my question is why are rifles at higher velocities injected to try and prove a boolits effect? Of course they are different. If my boolit works up to 1400 fps, fails between 1400 and 1700 and then knocks hell out of anything at 2000 fps I am not going to argue. Why even inject that stuff here?
This problem is strictly a revolver problem and the velocities it can reach. I stand by my findings that a flat nose is not good if shot too fast from a revolver and I never once said anything about rifle velocities.
How hard is it to accept that there just might be a dead spot where the secondary wound channel is not violent enough to disrupt a lot of tissue, only leaving the primary hole?
I fully agree that the same boolit from a rifle can be just right.
However I can NOT tell you at what velocity the boolit becomes effective again.
I never thought to post this before because my thoughts have always been with the revolver and I see what some of are saying but it just does not relate.
Now I suppose the .460 with a lighter WFN at 2000 fps might be the cats meow but the heavier one in the dead spot zone just might be a bad idea. Use an even heavier WFN at a lower velocity and it will come on again.
I don't know why it took so long for me to post this but can any of you accept the "dead zone" theory? I do believe there is a velocity range to avoid with a hard, flat meplat.
Sorry it took so long but I do not hunt with rifles anymore.
I have killed about 360 deer or so with mostly bows, muzzle loaders and revolvers. A few thrown in with single shot pistols and rifles.
Anyway, I can not stand here and explain rifles and cast boolits because I don't know!
I apologize if I started something about the boolit design that I love so much and not using my head to explain what I mean.
The revolver is all I picture when I post.

I forgive you.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
Because I usually have to end them, starting one would be a change, wouldn't it Alex?

Plus you were comparing rifle to handgun. Anyhoo, just keeping you on your toes. You about healed up?

I am getting there, still have problems with my knee and ankle.. Sucks getting old.... I don't heal like I use to..

It's always fun to start a fight, but the hell of it is in ending it without feelings being hurt. This one's really not worth that. If you FEEL more comfortable shooting something other than a .460 or a .500, then "comfort" counts for a helluva lot. Doesn't matter what the bullets and ballistics say. I just saw a commercial on the Outdoor Channel where a guy shot a pig with a .17 "Precision Adult Air Rifle" made by Gamo. I SAW it. Can't doubt it, but whether I'd feel "comfortable" doing it are two entirely different things. I'm supposing there's a whole helluva lot more to this "killin'" game than most of us understand.

Whitworth your the one that brought up the fact the "I think the bullet is going too fast and just zipping through -- sounds like BS, but I have seen te same thing with bfrshooter and his BFR in .45/70 and deer."

We can decussed who has the most experiance but it seems we both have lots of it.

My comparison of big bore hand guns as pea shooters was and is in comparison to rifles., as compared to rifles in vel, footpounds of energy ect they don't even come close.

Of all the hundreds of heads of game I have given rough necropsies too looking for bullet damage, recovering bullets. Of all the bullets I have shot in to test media. I just just can't agree with the idea of less vel more damage.

What I could bet on is we would have a hard time deciding on who likes to shoot things more.

Enjoy your shooting I know I enjoy mine.

I, for one, enjoy these "lively" discussions and clearly most of us here are passionate (maybe to a fault) about what we believe to be true. The beauty of this here forum is that we get shooters/hunters from all walks of life and with completely different experiences and opinions-all of which only serves to enrich my own knowledge base. I believe that nearly everyone here posts an accurate account of their experience in the field and are only looking to share it with people with similar interests-not bullshit the uninformed. I guess my point here is, how about a little less emphasis on weather or not I pissed you off by disagreeing with you and a little more emphasis on the fact that our opinions are a direct result of our own unique experiences and therefore play an important role in each discussion. I think we are all a bit too quick to put out fires as opposed to agreeing to disagree.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Whitworth your the one that brought up the fact the "I think the bullet is going too fast and just zipping through -- sounds like BS, but I have seen te same thing with bfrshooter and his BFR in .45/70 and deer."

We can decussed who has the most experiance but it seems we both have lots of it.

My comparison of big bore hand guns as pea shooters was and is in comparison to rifles., as compared to rifles in vel, footpounds of energy ect they don't even come close.

Of all the hundreds of heads of game I have given rough necropsies too looking for bullet damage, recovering bullets. Of all the bullets I have shot in to test media. I just just can't agree with the idea of less vel more damage.

What I could bet on is we would have a hard time deciding on who likes to shoot things more.

Enjoy your shooting I know I enjoy mine.

p dog -- we probably have more in common than we know. My comment about zipping through and doing little damage is exactly what happened and it was obvious when we opened the hog up. It was a lethal hit most definietly, but it would have resulted in a slow death had I not filled him full of lead!

Anyhow, I used to worship at the alter of the mighty muzzle energy, but I realized that it is a bogus figure that isn't even measurable but something you calculate. I have a number of big bore rifles and game reacts more to my big handguns than the rifles. So, if this mythical ME actually exists, I have yet to find an animal that is impressed by it.

p dog, if you lived closer to me, I would invite you to see for yourself what a .475 Linebaugh or .500 Linebaugh does to game. I think you would be impressed. JMHO.

Juggernaut -- your assessment is correct.

Darn.
Marko. A 395 at 1525 fps, and the dumb hog didn't know he was supposed to die?
I have to think you ran into a bunch of retarded pigs. Why? Well first couple don't know they are dead.
One of em has retarded hearing, or thought processes...They just don't know when they are supposed to die.
Hear you can run into buffalo with the same problem...

Just to throw this out:

Is it possible there is a too fast for pistol killing type, and too slow for rifle?

Here's what I've got on this. .475's and my .510 do nasty things to game animals that don't make much sense. That said, the bullets are big, 400-420 grains in the .475, and, for my Max, 525's. Velocity is 1350 fps or lower. They work. Now, Jacks shot a LOT of stuff with .500JRH, etc. and, it seems that a 440 grain bullet at 950 fps to 1350 fps kills real well. Perhaps the killing dynamic is related to different stuff then the rifles. In these bullets, you have large surface, area, a bullet that's going to wobble a bit as it hits bone, etc going through, and, with a 420 grain .475 that's nearly an inch long bullet, wobbling as it goes through the target, making a very big hole. It also turns
bone into bullets as well. Doesn't slow down much as it goes through, either. Now, the nervous system works at real high speed, so, it maybe able to react to the pain caused by the lower speed bullets, but, you may hit a speed, lets say in this case, 1500 fps, where it's too fast for the nerves of the pig to pick up the fact that it's been shot. Maybe this area of velocity with these bullets is around 1500 fps to 2150 fps, and, at that point, hydrodynamic shock starts doing the nerve damage from the bullets, and creates 'knockdown' affect?

Maybe the solution to this is expanding bullets in this area, not HC, or whatever Marko had in that Corbon load? In other words, you need a parachute to slow that big old bullet from 1500 fps to 950-1300 fps through the animal, so it knows it's been hit?

What a moron I can be. Just dawned on me the pig was too small. It didn't provide enough resistance to slow the bullet down to the speed where it would know it's been hit.
Wrong load for that sized hog...Marko: shoot bigger hogs...

Pdog:
My pistol will shoot 525's at 1550 fps, for around 3000 ft lbs of energy. These pistols are NOT a joke.

My home load is the stock factory 400 grain XTP at 1350 fps, and, that's around 2000 ft lbs, but, you know that...

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

I used to worship at the alter of the mighty muzzle energy, but I realized that it is a bogus figure that isn't even measurable but something you calculate.

I think the "Taylor Knockout Value" is about as close as we can come in defining a particular cartridge's effectiveness or comparing one to another. I'm not even saying that it is at all definitive, just more so than ME.

Haha! GS, I shoot big ones when they present themselves!

i have seen plenty of examples where the taylor KO value fails. i think each caliber has kind of a perfect size/round. some cartridges started with loads like that and are said to kill outside better than their numbers would predict. to address these arguments, i will just use my own battery of big bores rifles and pistols to make my point. 375 HH, 45/70, 460 weatherby, 475 linebaugh, 454 casull, 44 mag, 30/06. just some observations below,

1) the big pistols penetrate every bit as well as the 375 HH but my wound channels are bigger with the 375 on big hogs and buffalo.
2) the 460 weatherby makes a bigger impact with bullets that will hold together than any of the pistol rounds period. done, end of story and the only real diff. is muzzle energy.
3) freedom arms 300 gr jsp were about as perfect a bullet for the 454 as have existed. end to end on elk and thick skinned game but also penetrated nearly as well as hardcasts. BB makes a load with a very very similiar bullet. hits like the hammer of thor.
4) don't need expandable bullets on the big bore pistols and don't see a use for expandables on my .475, or really the 454, but the velocity of the 454 makes the expandables plausible in this caliber (260 gr at over 2100fps) or even hornady's 240gr at 1900fps. kills even big stuff dead. does a number on hogs and slays deer as well as anything i've ever shot them with.
5) 45/70 with bb 430 gr hardcast at >1900fps killed a couple of buff with bangflop on 3 consecutive shots and i'm not sure about the observations on bfrshooters 45.70 pistol. just don't know b/c my results with the rifle is just exact opposite at an even higher velocity. not arguing, i just don't know.
6) if you run them fast the 475 and 454 are just plain interchangeable but if you want an easy shooting 1000fps load for bear defense or just have sore wrists the .475 is king in this scenario.
7) i love 335 or 360 grain hardcast bullets in the 454 from 1350-1550fps. but i like nosler partitions at >1800fps even more, even if they are smaller and i will use them on large thickskinned game, and i do use them on thick skinned game. i also use xtps. the xtp mags are great bullets in the casull and while i've had one instance of jacket separation i've had more instances of poor hardcast performance and fragmentation.
8) i love 44 mags and don't feel undergunned with them, just tailor what you're shooting with the proper bullet a bit more than the others.
oh well, just my observations.

watch the bang flops on the cold steel lynn thompson videos from australia, great shot and really lets you know what's possible with the 44 mag.

oh well, i forgot, for close range thick skinned animals i'd take the 44 mag over the '06 anytime.

tradmark,

I agree for the most part with everything you stated, but the muzzle energy. It's just a higher calculated number; period, end of story.

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
oh well, i forgot, for close range thick skinned animals i'd take the 44 mag over the '06 anytime.

You and me both, tradmark -- except I would take my .475 in place of my .44!

well, i use the 44 to '06 analogy b/c some idiots like to spout off that the 44 mag is not on the level of a 30/30 which is retarded. i am in line with the mark sullivan line of thinking and believe a cns/brain shot is what is necessary to incapacitate large dangerous game and i want every opportunity to put a bullet in the brain. if i can get off 2 or 3 from the .44 then that's what i'd want as the caliber difference won't make a diff b/w the 44 and the 475, but ideally i'd like the 475 with bb light loads of 420 grains at about 950-1000fps.

i just plain disagree ME is meaningless. my 475 with 420 grains is noooooo where near as effective or destructive as the 460 with a lighter 400 grain tsx at 3000fps. i don't care what it is, hardcast or expandable, it doesn't equal what i've seen out of the .460. damn near cuts large hogs in half. very very destructive round, the only diff. is muzzle energy. there's a point where a difference in ME is and is not consequential and where that is really is what the disagreement is.

granted, there's nothing i can't kill with my 44, 475, or 454 that i could with the 460 but the diff in destroyed tissue, wound channels etc is certainly impressive.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Shy hell, Mike! I'm just sorry I don't live in a state with a big hog population any more. Instead of killing porkers twice a month, now it's twice a year for me and quite frankly it's not enough. The XVR isn't mine and I will be giving it back soon, so I won't be performing any load development for it.

I think that light hollow points have no place in hog hunting. Now before I get jumped on, I think they are fine for small hogs, but you just know that 350-pounder will show up when you are packin' your light load! Many years ago, I had a Gold Dot fail miserably on a small meat pig. I know hat is one sample, but I have been witness to many more. They're tough buggers -- but not armor plated.

I agree that only a couple times a year is not enough time put in on hog patrol. They get bred way to fast to lay off them for that long. Heck man get out there and shoot some more. LOL

I agree on the lighter bullets,In the 357 I generally stick with the Oregon Trial 158gr FRN bullets as I don't cast my own. I got a good deal on them, or seemed to be at the time so I got enough to last a while. I run them at around 1500 fps and they will handle things up to around 200# pretty easily when the shot is good.

In my 41 I generally use the 200gr Rem. SJHP at around 1250 which doesn't blow it up, and it packs a hell of a whollop out to 75yds. The 44 I am using the Rem. bullet also in the 240gr SJHP at a low velocity of around 1250 as well. With the large exposed lead tip it flattens out and punches on through a lot of hog gristle.

None will equal the 454 of course in either weight or velocity, however the jacketed bullet I am using even though light, have a very heavy jacket designed for top end velocities from it. So keeping it somewhat lower helps keep them from blowing up, as I am sure you know. The Cast Performance, shoot awesome and I do carry them most of the time when I tote that one out. I just had to try out the jacketed on something besides paper. LOL

I fully agree with you on the 350# one coming in face to face, been there done that and it ain't a fun place to be. I had one come out last Oct, while bow hunting on the ground. I looked at it's back sticking out several inches of the waist deep iron weed, as it slowly walked toward a wallow, then I looked at the tiny broadhead on that stick I was considering poking it with, and I quivered my arrow and headed the other direction. not ashamed to admit when I don't think I have enough to get the job done. LOL It would have probably worked just fine, but if not there weren't enough low branches on anything big enough for me to get up in a hurry.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Otherwise, you'll have to get over it if you can't.

I see you are comparing a cast bullet from a revolver to an expanding bullet from a rifle. Therefore, velocity is not the only difference, and you are most likely overdriving the EXPANDING bullet to boot. Try this drivel with someone who buys into it.

I don't necessarily want to destroy flesh, but I do want to poke a big hole all the way through whatever I am hunting, and my .475 gets that done in spades, even better than my .458 Lott -- depite the 4,000 ft-lb deficit in ME.......

quote:

Originally posted by Mke / Tx:
I fully agree with you on the 350# one coming in face to face, been there done that and it ain't a fun place to be. I had one come out last Oct, while bow hunting on the ground. I looked at it's back sticking out several inches of the waist deep iron weed, as it slowly walked toward a wallow, then I looked at the tiny broadhead on that stick I was considering poking it with, and I quivered my arrow and headed the other direction. not ashamed to admit when I don't think I have enough to get the job done. LOL It would have probably worked just fine, but if not there weren't enough low branches on anything big enough for me to get up in a hurry.

We call that being smart, Mike!

Just got done reading an old letter from Linebaugh. He was saying that heavy bullets, and LFNs need big animals to slow them down, and make them expand.

Sounds like you are right. Animal was too small for that load...

It was a solid, it didn't need to expand.

MS Hitman -- i have nothing to get over, i simply offered my observations, i also was comparing expandable handgun bullets to expandable rifle bullets as well as expandable rifle bullets to hardcast solids.

whitworth can have observations the exact opposite of mine regarding his 475 and his 458 lott and i would never have that attitude towards him. he doesn't have to "get over" anything. perhaps though, it would be fun some time to get together, shoot some animals, compare wound channels..etc.

i would say that the accurate reloading forums may be some of the worst on the web for having one particular predominate idea on a subject and browbeating those that disagree. though this handgun forum is waaaaaay more friendly than the silly big bore rifle and african hunting forum.

It is unfortunate that a simple hunt report, is brought around to the same old topic by the same old people!
Peter.

Hey, I was just reporting on my hunt last weekend!

Ah! Ha! So you admit it was YOUR fault!!!!! Not blaming you Marko. I thought it was good report.
Peter.

tradmark,

Offering observations is one thing. Comparing an expanding bullet that you are most likely overdriving in a rifle to a hardcast from a revolver and telling me the ONLY difference is muzzle energy is another matter entirely. Continuing to do so after this has been pointed out to you is foolish in my opinion. Muzzle energy is a calculated number that has little to do with anything other than selling higher velocity ammo and more firearms.

I agree that getting together for a hunt would be much more fun than arguing on this forum.

MS Hitman wrote:

quote:

Continuing to do so after this has been pointed out to you is foolish in my opinion.

Not trying to start an argument here, but just because someone pointed something out in a forum does not make it gospel.

Valid arguments can be made for either side since this is basically an apples-to-oranges comparison, and there is no cut-and-dried superiority equation weighing one way or the other.

But back to the topic at hand:

As to hard casts -- more specifically the Cast Performance 320 grainer that I've used in a few .44 Magnums -- I have found they perform best when pushed fairly hard (1350-1400 fps from 7.5 and 9" barrels, respectively).

Dropping the MV to the 1100 fps range has, in the animals I've shot, resulted in much less pronounced impact, though every situation is, again, unique.

Also, I prefer popping them through one or both shoulders, and the secondary bone fragments compliment the already-impressive wound channel. With my top-end loads and shoulder impacts, most hogs fold on the spot, and those that did move did not go very far at all.

And while the 1100 fps load did result in dead animals, I simply quit using it because the animals often gave little to no reaction to a hit whereas the impact with the faster load was always more notable. Also, several of them covered a significant amount of ground -- at least more than I am accustomed to.

The wound channels in the faster loads with the Cast Performance bullets were visibly larger than those produced with the slower loads. (I'll have to look and see if I still have the photos of some chest cavity wound channels. If so, I'll post them, but those were taken prior to '97, when we were wiped out by a freak flash flood. If they were at the house, they are history; if they were in town at my studio, I'll locate 'em.)

Another reason I prefer the shoulder shot is that the anatomy of a hog is slightly different than that of a deer in that the lungs are farther forward and do not extend horizontally behind the shoulder as much as they do in a whitetail.

As to expanding bullets in revolvers, there is only one I consider in my .44s for hogs, and that is the 250 grain Partiton. While many JHPs can often provide decisive results, they can also fail miserably at times.

The final straw for me with JHPs involved a 175 pound fallow deer and a 300 grain Hornady XTP driven at 1330 fps. On a 60-yard shot, the jacket and core separated upon impact, and the jacket never even made it through the relatively fragile shoulder. Yes, the core punched through to the lungs and killed the buck, but it lodged between this ribs and hide on the off-side. From a 300 grain projectile on a thin-skinned target, I expect and demand better performance, and the day after this incident is when I made the switch to Cast Performance. And when the Partition HGs became available, I gave them a good workout and have the highest praise for them as well. They'll open easily on a ribcage lung shot on a small deer and yet punch all the way through a 250 pound piggie with ease.

OK Peter, now you've done it. What the hell is this "OLD PEOPLE" thing. I resemble that remark.

Bobby I'd never consider you to be the argumentative type.

tradmark was comparing expanding bullets from a rifle and a solid from a revolver and telling everyone the ONLY difference is muzzle energy. I'm not arguing the fact he got more damage from the rifle bullets. But I'm not about to agree the only difference between the loads is muzzle energy as he indicated in his thread.

HERE WE GO AGAIN!
Peter.

Thanks for the "fair and balanced" report Whitworth and congratulations on a couple of nice hogs.

In his book "Handgun Hunting" Mark Hampton wrote "Let me point out that big cast bullets in revolvers essentially leave half-inch diameter holes in animals but in most cases they do not kill quickly. I have seen more than 100 head of medium-sized game shot multiple times, in the right spot, with the big, hard cast bullets, in both .44 and .45 caliber revolvers, and it never ceases to amaze me by how far the game will go afterward. Unless the shoulder or spine is broken, or a brain shot is made, the chase will be on."

Sounds like your experience and Mr. Hampton's are very similar in this instance. I'm going brown bear hunting next month on the north shore of Bristol Bay Alaska with a 8 3/8" .500 S&W revolver. I'm gonna have three 500 grain Hornady soft points and two 440 grain Cast Performance WFNGC bullets in the cylinders. Best of both worlds!

x-caliber, I have had it go both ways with heavy, flat-nosed hardcast bullets. In the case of my .475, every necropsy I have performed has revealed a boatload of internal damage, not just a clean hole -- but way more consistently so in the case of the .475 versus other calibers.

quote:

In the case of my .475, every necropsy I have performed has revealed a boatload of internal damage, not just a clean hole -- but way more consistently so in the case of the .475 versus other calibers.

Somewhere in this this thread you mentioned a .500 caliber. Which .500 did you go with, Linebaugh, S&W, doesnt JRH have one too?

I went .500 Linebaugh and in fact it should be in my hands in the next two weeks or so. I have seen the .500 Linebaugh and the .500 JRH in action, and they are lethal (obviously when loaded correctly). My only beef with the .500 Smith is the size of the packaging required. The .475 on up cartridges are definitely higher up on the food chain with regards to effectiveness IMHO. If I hadn't been testing, I wouldn't have bothered with the .460 -- as my .475 just works so well.

quote:

My only beef with the .500 Smith is the size of the packaging required.

Mine too.

I can't wait to see your new .500 Linebaugh.

I will post up as soon as I get it in my hands! Next time I go into the swamp, you know what I will be packing!

Whitworth wrote: "In the case of my .475, every necropsy I have performed has revealed a boatload of internal damage, not just a clean hole -- but way more consistently so in the case of the .475 versus other calibers."

Whitworth has the experience and the dead animals to back his claim, and everything in the gun world doesn't follow paper ballistics.

I know it doesn't in the case of the .44 Mag and the 320 grain Cast Performance. A difference in 250-300 fps should seem rather minor but actually makes a pronounced difference in game I've shot.

And if we did have to only follow paper ballistics, I guess most of the critters I've killed with my little 7mm Bullberry would still be running...

Bobby, you are right! I found the same with the .44 at 1300+ is a quicker stopper then the .45 at 1100+.
But speed it more and it will start to go backwards.
What I want to know is will the hard flat nose come back on line if velocity is increased a lot more?
I want to leave expansion out of the question. I want to leave bone and spine hits out too. Double lung shots and damage at that point.
It is a narrow point to be sure and if Marko and I had hit shoulders on the game we shot, results would have been different and we would put too much trust in the boolits at high velocity.
I believe it is a valid problem to look over. It does no good to post about success with all other kinds of hits.
One fella on another site said make head shots---yeah, sure!

Hey Whitworth,what is your 500 going to be based on?????I am anxious to see pics.I have just started baiting for bear for Sept. and am going to use my 475.Hope to ruin a Bruins day!!!!!!!