I posted this on the hog hunting forum, but many of you don't visit there, so I am posting it here as well.......

Okay, here goes......

Left early Friday morning for Johnston County, North Carolina. Got there in the early afternoon, headed to the range on the property to sight in a Smith & Wesson .460 XVR that I was testing. Unfortunately, I didn't have the opportunity to dial the revolver in prior to heading to NC. Just got a box of CorBon 395 grain WFN loads. With my limited amount of ammo, I got it dialed in at 50 yards, which was probably the maximum distance I would be shooting. I also checked the zero of my custom .475 Linebaugh Ruger Super Redhawk.

The range.......



I was scheduled to sit in a stand over a bait pile that night. The outfitter has lights rigged i certain area making it possible. For this hunt I chose my .475 with a red dot. After 9:00 pm, two hours into my hunt, the hogs started moving, but never made it to the lights as they may have been winding me. But, another group showed up near 10:00 and I picked the biggest one, put the rod dot on its shoulder and squeezed. The hog squealed and headed off into the brush. It was a sow that went 175-lbs, that piled up within 30 yards with a double lung hit.

And here she is........



I hit the same stand early the next morning and the cool weather had us out most of the day trauling for hogs.

That evening, I tried a different stand over a feeder. I poured out some more corn, dumped a gallon of concentrated cherry KoolAid on top of it and tried a couple of attractants as well. I really wanted to blood that .460. I actually brought some Game Ears with me as the .460 is so bleeding loud. Night was falling right around 8:45, so I was hoping to get one before.

Thought I heard some grunting around 7:45 pm and quietly put the Games Ears on and cranked them up to full volume. I turned back towards the feeder and there are four hogs feeding there! Not big, but I'm not that picky, so I turned the Game Ears off, picked one out under the feeder, put the sights on his shoulder and squeezed......BOOM, but the hog didn't really react and moved off a bit, so I shot again. Then he took off into the forrest. Meanwhile, the other pigs kept eating! That .460's like a howitzer going off. Very strange.

Since I wasn't sure I even hit hog number one, I picked another, put sights on his shoulder and squeezed. Same thing, no real reaction, just moved off a bit so I hit him again, and he took off along with one other hog.

One hog remained despite all of the racket. Just kept eating. So, I whistled at him, yelled at him, called him names......nothing, just kept eating. So, I put the .460 down, put my camera in my pocket, my flashlight in another, and climbed down. I walked within 10-ft of the eating hog, when he looked up with a mouthful of KoolAid and corn, and decided it would be best to leave.

Here is hog with the hearing problem.......



I called the outfitter and told him I had some traking to do. He showed up and we started. No blood on the ground at all. Very strange. But, we found some at the edge of the clearing heading down into the swamp. We tracked a blood trail down to the water's edge and I went one way and the outfitter went another. After some traipsing around in the swamp I heard a hog and followed the noise. I saw him and he was obviously sick, so I pulled my Model 29 and shot him and he took off running, so I shot at him again. Now the race was on. I jumped into a section of water and went in to my waist -- camera and cell phone submerged, so I pulled the memory card and stuck it in my dry breat pocket and continued the chase. Caught up with him again and took another shot -- he's still running, so I shot at him again. I have two rounds left and I catch up with him on dry land and he turns towards me, and starts popping his jaws at me, so I shot him again and he took off again! Damn, what a tough bugger! Now when I catch up to him he's really sick and I have one round left, so I carefully aim behind his ear and squeeze. He falls over in the water and starts paddling. It was finally over.......except for dragging his bullet riddled carcass back out of the swamp in the dark.......aaaahhhhhh, I love hunting!

Got him out of the swamp, and he weighed all of a hundred pounds and he was as full of holes as a piece of swiss cheese. The initial shot was true and was a double lung shot behind the shoulder. Sadly, the only picture I have was taken with a cell phone as my camera is deceased -- sacrificed in the name of hunting. I am tweaking the photo and will try and post it.

The other hog I shot was lost, but such is life.

Here is a photo of the back of the bunk house.



Here's the lake in front of the bunk house -- and yes, it's full of fish!



The staff was great, the hunt takes place on 2,000 acres and the hogs are free ranging. The price is right and the best part is that it's close to home.

Contact details are as follows:

Hog Heaven Outfitters
www.hogheavenoutfitters.com
Call Milton Turnage at:
(252) 560-5082

I highly recommend this outfit!

I suppose these NC hogs are just hard to kill, Marko? 7 ROUNDS! I suggest you trade in your 460 for a 500 S&W!!! Good thing you didn't have a puny 357 Mag.
Sorry couldn't resist! Please PM cost of the hunt and where it is. Perhaps the next AR hunt?
Good post!!! Things have been rather quiet on this forum for a while!
Peter.

I can tell you that everything I have touched with my .475 hasn't required the amount of lead the hog I shot with the .460 did! I think the bullet is going too fast and just zipping through -- sounds like BS, but I have seen te same thing with bfrshooter and his BFR in .45/70 and deer. They react to the .475. Very strange indeed. The hog wasn't overly impressed with my .44 either!

I will PM you details tomorrow, Peter.

Good story. I'm glad someone is shooting something.

Yep, the .460 and .454 are overblown for hunting unless game is shot so far the bullet slows.
Same as my 45-70 but I will be using softer boolits with a hollow point this season.
Velocity and muzzle energy figures can be stuffed in a dark hole somewhere where the sun don't shine.
Once an animal is hit with the wrong gun, it gets very hard to kill.
I remember a small doe in Ohio a guy hit 11 times with 12 ga slugs and all of you know how deadly they are. But his first round was a bad hit. The poor thing was a mangled rag and it took hours of tracking and shooting in the snow to keep her down.
The .454 and .460 are two guns I will never own. They are either overly destructive or fail.
Yeah, load them down to a .45 Colt, but why not buy a Colt to start with? Or use a grossly heavy slow boolit.
I class both with the .357 where you need the exact bullet and velocity for the game hunted.

.475 is still the king! When I get my .500 back (soon, very soon! ), that'll be my "go into the swamp gun!"

You guy make me laugh so hard I can hardly type.

A bullet going so fast that it zips right through causing no damage is one of the oldest wives tales out there. The only way to much vel causes failure if the bullet fails reach the vitals. To much vel not a tough enough bullet

How is anything killed with rifle cailbers that shoot bullets at vel that make hand gun vel seem weak.

I surpose all the hogs I've killed and seen kill with 30-06's 338wm 460 wby ect and ect were not killed untill the bullets slowed down right. I guess I should be letting them get out to 3 or 400 yards so the bullets go as slow as your hand guns. Shooting them at 20 yards or so they just can't work as the bullets are going so fast. I guess that 490 blk bear shot with my 416 with a 350 at 2450 shouldn't have died because that bullet at that speeds out does any one of you pea shooters by a ways. Or the hogs last spring I saw shot with a 460 wby with 350 x bullets at around 2700 they shouldn't have died.

Bullet failure can and is a problem and it can and is cause by vel sometimes.

Killing things with handguns is no differant then killing them with rifles the proper bullet placed in the proper spot. Destroying enough tissue to get the job done is what causes the critter to die.

I think all of you should slow you loads down to about 600fps because slow kills better.

With all due respect, p dog, have you ever hunted with a handgun? And I'm not talking a hand rifle, but something that actually fits in a holster on your hip? If you have, you will have observed a different dynamic going on than with a rifle that has considerably higher velocity potential than a revolver. In order for flat-nosed hardcasts to work properly, you cannot drive them very fast. If the nose gets distorted, their penetration potential gets flushed down the toilet. There is a sweet spot where they work really well. But there is something else to consider. If the bullet doesn't encounter anything hard, like bone, it will sail right through, like any good solid will. Slowing them down a bit seems to up the damage potential even if it doesn't encouter much resistence. We don't have close to 3,000 fps to contend with. But we do have diameter and bullet weight going for us, without the need for an expanding bullets. I have performed many penetration tests and have pitted rifles against these handguns and the results have been eye opening to say the least.

The cases you have cited have all featured expanding bullets. I think you've missed the point.

I agree, hard to compare apples to grapes. High velocity expanding bullets from rifles are so far from what is being discussed it should make P Dog blush.
I admit being stupid with large meplat, hard boolits long ago after seeing just how potent they are and how quickly they kill so I thought if I made them faster they would do even better.
It was a rude awakening to say the least when I found they are just no good if too fast.
Once velocity gets so high, then the revolver needs to be treated like a high velocity rifle and expanding bullets used.
P Dog has never said he used a hard cast rifle boolit for his kills and I am sure he does not hunt with armor piercing or military ball ammo either. I am sure an armor piercing bullet has a high velocity and a high muzzle energy but will it kill an animal so you can find it?
But he compares his expanding rifle bullets to what we have essentualy turned into armor piercing in the revolver.
To get results from the .454 and .460 you NEED to treat them like a rifle and step away from hard cast. Since I shoot nothing but cast, I do not want them.
Just how hard is it to make that distinction?

Wow, I can't believe this, I guess all the game animals I saw killed with a 454 Casull or 460 Mag should not of died. I am baffled here. I used hard cast bullets in my 454 Casull's and 460 Mags with no problem. Killed shit dead as hell.

Sorry BFRshooter, but I disagree with you on this.

I use hard cast bullet in my 45-70 Lever action rifle and they kill game just as good as my jacketed bullet I have used and I am talking 2000 fps here.

When you launch a bullet from any platform, it is going to kill game.

I think he is reiterating what I am saying: if they go fast and meet no resistence, they sail through. Slow 'em down a bit and there's more dwell time and subsequently a bit more damage -- now I'm talking about hardcast, solids and not expanding bullets. Nothing controversial at all. Had the bullets hit some meaningful bone, it would have obviously had better results. I too have killed with my .454 and also using 400 grain WFNs.

Whitworth: I can't help wondering what would have happened if you hadn't shot twice with the 460...Do you think the pig would have hung around eating until he just keeled over?

dvnv

ps: No comment on JHP vs HC...you already know my preference.

quote:

Originally posted by dvnv:
Whitworth: I can't help wondering what would have happened if you hadn't shot twice with the 460...Do you think the pig would have hung around eating until he just keeled over?

dvnv

ps: No comment on JHP vs HC...you already know my preference.

Doubtful, but it would have saved me the work -- oh, and the camera......

That is the distinction, double lung shots Just don't work. Bone or CNS hits are fine which means you MUST slow the boolit in game if bone is not hit or hit the spine.
Redhawk is getting into the same kind of discussion as we find with the .357 and all the game taken with it.
Nowhere, ever have I said the .357 will not kill nor have I ever said the .454 and .460 with hard cast will not kill but conditions and where the game is hit dictates whether it is effective.
Since distance varies and animals never hold still and we are not shooting from a bench with a scoped rifle, there is no way a revolver shooter can place perfect shots every tick of the clock when a rifle shooter can't do it.
Many of my deer are shot behind the shoulder because I like shoulder meat and the .44, .45 and .475 are superb with killing power but the faster hard cast do not work there. As good as we shoot, I will not claim to hit all animals in the shoulder even if I try to. From what I see, most of you can't claim to hit exact either unless you are in shaking hand distance.
Just stand there and tell me you can hit a deer or pig in the spine off hand out to 100 yards, and I will be the first to call you a liar because Marko and I can hold 6" groups that way at 100 yards and still will not say such a thing.
To just claim you kill with the combination still does not prove a thing. I have 100% faith in the .44, .45 and .475, even the .500 which I never used but I don't trust my 45-70, or a .454 or .460 unless the hard cast is slowed down or an expanding boolit is used, whether softer lead or jacketed.
If your guns are loaded with softer boolits, you are OK but my accuracy goes to pot and distance is shortened.
Hard cast shot real fast does not work unless you hit bone or a lot of tough muscle to allow the boolit to slow and do some work inside the animal.
It seems Marko provided graphic proof as have I with all the deer I have hit with my 45-70 but so many just have to jump in that we are wrong when they have not the experience or only made the slow down shots in an animal.
This was not an argument posting. Why do they start? This was information and experienced based facts. I feel anything done to make hunting more productive is more important then showing how important I am or how I killed with such and such a boolit.
I notice nobody posts lost game or shows any groups where I have lost animals with the wrong boolit and I post groups.
Get off the high horses and come down to earth.
I read all the time it is about boolit placement, well come here to my range and show me just how good you are at it. I will take you deer hunting too so you can show me every shot you take is perfect.
Why the hell do guys have to argue about boolit performance?

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Yep, the .460 and .454 are overblown for hunting unless game is shot so far the bullet slows.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
They are either overly destructive or fail.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
double lung shots Just don't work.

Seems you boys been hitting the sauce a little too hard toady...

Juggernaut -- look at the context of bfrshooter's statements and don't pull out little tidbits you disagree with. With a hardcast (read: solid), they tend to zip through flesh unless they encounter an obastacle like bone, or gristle plate, etc. That is what the man is saying. Not saying they won't kill game at all.......

Fellas, not to argue but the faster the bullet is traveling when it passes through an animal the more damage it will cause! Especially flat nose non-expanding bullets. When bullets traveling at high velocity encounter a viscous fluid (blood and flesh) it will imediately initiate cavitation. The degree of cavitation increases very rapidly, the faster the projectile the larger the hole created. Now as far as "dwell time", you're already talking about a time frame of milli-seconds, and a few additional milli-seconds won't change a dam thing.

Oh, and by the way. I do hunt with handguns. I've hunted with 460S&W, 454, 45Colt, 44mag, 357mag. I have found that no matter which one I'm shooting the most important thing is shot placement. There is almost no difference in the time it takes an animal to expire when shot through the lungs with any of the calibers I listed. 200gr SST @ 2100fps killed just as good as a 300gr WLFN @ 1100fps. The same 300gr WLFN driven to 1800fps sailed right through, and left one dead animal too. All were double lung, with no shoulder. Another thing to consider is the fact that there are many ML that use the same bullets as you guys are talking about and pushing them in the 2000fps range, yet I don't really hear any of them saying that they need to slow the bullets down.

Not making any accusations but I've seen way to many people (people I've hunted with) talk about how the bullet failed to kill an animal very quickly, which means the bullets are crap. When in fact the bullet may have preformed just fine, they just didn't hit the animal in a very good spot.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Juggernaut -- look at the context of bfrshooter's statements and don't pull out little tidbits you disagree with. With a hardcast (read: solid), they tend to zip through flesh unless they encounter an obastacle like bone, or gristle plate, etc. That is what the man is saying. Not saying they won't kill game at all.......

Even in the context of using hard cast bullets it is still misinformation. A 370 grain WFN at 1300 fps from a .454 Casull (about all one can expect from a 7.5" barrel) is not excessively fast. I do agree that they tend to zip through flesh, but they do a helluva lot of damage along the way. I've killed a sufficient number of deer with this load to be convinced of its lethality. All shots were double-lungers inside of 15 yards and I could eat right up to the bullet hole.

I do however hunt primarily with expending bullets in my Casull as in my experience more deer drop at the shot than with hardcast. I hunt on the edge of a property line and the neighbors are not too keen on anyone tracking deer on their property, so bang-flop is a necessary thing.

It would seem our experiences and opinions vary-don't take it personally, if we all agreed there wouldn't be a reason for a forum. The only absolute in this sport is that there are no absolutes. Therefore absolute statements like those mentioned have no credence.

Agreed that 370 grainer at 1,300 isn't excessive. But that is not how if is loaded from the factory and that in my opinion is not excessive in the least. Deer aren't particularly hard to kill and I agree that an expanding bullet is preferable, but step up to thick skinned game and I will stay with hardcast bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Deer aren't particularly hard to kill and I agree that an expanding bullet is preferable, but step up to thick skinned game and I will stay with hardcast bullets.

Here we can agree!

Marko was with me on one deer that was a perfect behind the shoulder, double lung shot with a WFN hard cast from my 45-70 at 1630 fps.
He can tell you that when opened up, the lungs were intact with just a hole through them.
The deer went about 200 yards and the blood trail came and went.
Where was this cavitation?
I believe the flat nose creates a pressure wave that forces tissue out of the way in a large secondary wound channel if driven too fast. The primary channel is small and the secondary collapses with little remaining damage.
I have said many times that 1100 to 1400 is the best range for a hard cast, large meplat. Even slower will kill like crazy but poor trajectory limits range.
Now I had lost several deer before with fast WLN boolits and found another that went over 100 yards.
I will not be hit in the head with any more sticks before I change boolits.
I have not lost a deer with the .44, .45 or .475 and 30 yards is a long run.

quote:

Originally posted by txhunter77:
Fellas, not to argue but the faster the bullet is traveling when it passes through an animal the more damage it will cause! Especially flat nose non-expanding bullets. When bullets traveling at high velocity encounter a viscous fluid (blood and flesh) it will imediately initiate cavitation. The degree of cavitation increases very rapidly, the faster the projectile the larger the hole created. Now as far as "dwell time", you're already talking about a time frame of milli-seconds, and a few additional milli-seconds won't change a dam thing.

Oh, and by the way. I do hunt with handguns. I've hunted with 460S&W, 454, 45Colt, 44mag, 357mag. I have found that no matter which one I'm shooting the most important thing is shot placement. There is almost no difference in the time it takes an animal to expire when shot through the lungs with any of the calibers I listed. 200gr SST @ 2100fps killed just as good as a 300gr WLFN @ 1100fps. The same 300gr WLFN driven to 1800fps sailed right through, and left one dead animal too. All were double lung, with no shoulder. Another thing to consider is the fact that there are many ML that use the same bullets as you guys are talking about and pushing them in the 2000fps range, yet I don't really hear any of them saying that they need to slow the bullets down.

Not making any accusations but I've seen way to many people (people I've hunted with) talk about how the bullet failed to kill an animal very quickly, which means the bullets are crap. When in fact the bullet may have preformed just fine, they just didn't hit the animal in a very good spot.

I'm not interested in the temporary state of cavitation as much as I am the permanent wound channel. Cavitation is not tantamount to the most effective killing. Permanent wound channel on the other hand, is. Obviously you need to hit the vitals in any case.

Handguns are already at a deficit, with regards to speed and the shock effect that a rifle bullet can produce due to high velocity. Projectile shape and speed become very critical to the killing effect of the handgun. There is much more evidence in my experience, absolutely proving that slower speeds with properly shaped, sized, and weighted projectiles put these "pea-shooter" handguns into a realm of usability and effectiveness that is difficult to match with anything but the biggest rifle calibers.

Not a good example citing the muzzle loaders as they use dead-soft projectiles (or sabot-type pistol bullets that are frangible) that expand and do not act like a solid, so again, we are talking about a different dynamic.

I too have used all manner of .45s and the ubiquitous .44 magnum, but didn't start seeing just how effective handguns can be until I stepped up to the .475 and above class calibers.

Not trying to be argumentative, but I am not one who believes in wive's tales.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Marko was with me on one deer that was a perfect behind the shoulder, double lung shot with a WFN hard cast from my 45-70 at 1630 fps.
He can tell you that when opened up, the lungs were intact with just a hole through them.
The deer went about 200 yards and the blood trail came and went.
Where was this cavitation?
I believe the flat nose creates a pressure wave that forces tissue out of the way in a large secondary wound channel if driven too fast. The primary channel is small and the secondary collapses with little remaining damage.
I have said many times that 1100 to 1400 is the best range for a hard cast, large meplat. Even slower will kill like crazy but poor trajectory limits range.
Now I had lost several deer before with fast WLN boolits and found another that went over 100 yards.
I will not be hit in the head with any more sticks before I change boolits.
I have not lost a deer with the .44, .45 or .475 and 30 yards is a long run.

I don't base bullet performance on one animal, I killed 2 black bear with my 45-70 with a 405 gr. hard cast WFN bullet. Both bear were shot through the lungs and they were destroyed, like a bowl of jello. The velocity was 1900 fps at a distance of 25 yards, and both bear recovered under 15 yards.

I don't buy into the slower the bullet the more damage theory. Last year I shot my black bear with a double lung shot with my 510 GNR, 350 gr. WFN Hard cast bullet at about 1200 fps and the lungs were not blown apart as much as what my 45-70 did at 1900 fps. Bear recovered in under 25 yards. So I can't duplicate your theory.

Im keepin my trap shut!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Marko was with me on one deer that was a perfect behind the shoulder, double lung shot with a WFN hard cast from my 45-70 at 1630 fps.
He can tell you that when opened up, the lungs were intact with just a hole through them.
The deer went about 200 yards and the blood trail came and went.
Where was this cavitation? .

Now, I never said that the lungs would have anymore than a hole in them no matter what the velocity was. I've shot a doe (double lung) with a 270cal 150gr bullet @ an impact velocity of 3400+ fps, complete pass through, the lungs were jelly. For some reason that deer still was able to run over 130yds before crashing leaving very little blood along the way. Imagine that!

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I believe the flat nose creates a pressure wave that forces tissue out of the way in a large secondary wound channel if driven too fast. The primary channel is small and the secondary collapses with little remaining damage.

Well, I agree with you in one aspect. The faster moving projo will create a large wound chanel. The cavitation I was speaking of is present with any projectile moving through a viscous fluid. It produces a large cavity devoid of any material, overcoming the elasticity of the tissue and creating a permanant wound channel, but the higher the velocity the larger diameter of the cavity. This cavity is very small in diameter for velocities under 2000fps, but can be offset by makeing the projectile have a flat nose with very square corners. The premanant wound cavity for a hardcast flat nose projo traveling at an impact velocity of 1000fps will be smaller than that of one traveling 2000fps, not by a huge amout, but non the less it will be smaller.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:I have said many times that 1100 to 1400 is the best range for a hard cast, large meplat. Even slower will kill like crazy but poor trajectory limits range.
Now I had lost several deer before with fast WLN boolits and found another that went over 100 yards.
I will not be hit in the head with any more sticks before I change boolits.
I have not lost a deer with the .44, .45 or .475 and 30 yards is a long run.

Well I guess I'm very forturnate in that I've only lost 3 deer out of 50-60 deer I have taken. The only reason I lost them was because the deer made it into an area that I couldn't get to.

Now I am in no way disputing your experiences, but simple trying to point out that the physics involved in the preformance of bullets. I happen to agree with you in the fact that velocities much over 1100-1300fps are not really needed with hardcast WFN bullets, but I do dissagree with the assertion that higher velocities would kill less effectively.

COME ON GUYS. Whitworth, great stories and great pictures, but you've shot enough stuff with a pistol to know the implications that the .460 is "too fast" is just bullshit. Hogs are tough animals and SOMETIMES the bastards just won't die at all. I recall reading a story by John Wooters who ran into a huge Texas hog that he refused to shoot with his .44 mag because he felt, at the moment of truth, wasn't sufficient for a hog. Pistols, even with rifle rounds, don't perform like rifles. Even with it's speed in factory loads, that .460 is going to punch a half inch hole through the animal at best or worst (whichever way your desires run). That's a big hole that leaks life out of anything. Trouble with a pig (or bear or whitetail) is that all of them don't get that book to read before they die.

I thought we agreed not to discuss this hydraulic shock issue any more. ROTFLMAO Here is bfrshooter talking about "cavitation". I'm not about to explain to him that "cavitation" is just a byproduct of "hydraulic shock".

I've killed a few hogs in my time. I've seen them boom/flop with a .22LR pistol shot and I've seen them run for two days and have to be run down by dogs after being ventilated with a .30-30. Sounds like you just plunked a tough old sonofagun. His gravy will probably be tough.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

I'm not interested in the temporary state of cavitation as much as I am the permanent wound channel. Cavitation is not tantamount to the most effective killing. Permanent wound channel on the other hand, is. Obviously you need to hit the vitals in any case.

The cavitation is only temporary because the bullet has to either stop or exit the animal. It is in fact what creates the wound channel, and the larger the temporary cavity the bullet produces (by cavitation) the larger the permanant wound channel will be. The bullet upsets the tissue, pushing it much further out of the way than the diameter of the bullet. A flat nosed nonexpanding bullet traveling at relatively low velocity will produce a cavity many times the diameter of the bullet, and one traveling twice as fast will produce a cavity much larger than the first. Now I fully understand that the cavity will close up, but not as much as the slower bullet. The tissue is stressed beyong it's elastic point and you will have a larger permanent wound channel.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Handguns are already at a deficit, with regards to speed and the shock effect that a rifle bullet can produce due to high velocity. Projectile shape and speed become very critical to the killing effect of the handgun. There is much more evidence in my experience, absolutely proving that slower speeds with properly shaped, sized, and weighted projectiles put these "pea-shooter" handguns into a realm of usability and effectiveness that is difficult to match with anything but the biggest rifle calibers.

Not a good example citing the muzzle loaders as they use dead-soft projectiles (or sabot-type pistol bullets that are frangible) that expand and do not act like a solid, so again, we are talking about a different dynamic.

I understand that there are many people who use soft lead or jacketed pistol bullets in ML, but I was referring to the people I know that have started using hardcast WFN bullets in sabots. Simply, they didn't like the soft lead and the fact that the jacketed pistol bullets usually don't give full penetration when driven at the higher velocity when hitting shoulders or heavy bone.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

Not trying to be argumentative, but I am not one who believes in wive's tales.

Well I don't believe in wive's tales either. It's just a matter of physics.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
I thought we agreed not to discuss this hydraulic shock issue any more. ROTFLMAO Here is bfrshooter talking about "cavitation". I'm not about to explain to him that "cavitation" is just a byproduct of "hydraulic shock".

George
If any one is to blame it is me, for I am the one who brought it up.

Though I'm not reffering to hydraulic shock effect. I'm simply reffering to the cavitation effect, as in the fact that a large cavity devoid of anything will be created by the bullet traveling through the tissue.

The hydraulic shock is more reffering to the increase pressure in the vascular system created by the bullet impact.

Sounds like you had a great time. I agree some of those porkers just seem to have an undeniable will to carry on even when they shouldn't.

Being somewhat new to the 454 I have had similar issues when using the Cast Performance 265gr WFN running at 1700'ish FPS. I shot one lengthwise and it simply stood there like nothing happened. The second shot as it turned however, wreaked havok on the onside shoulder and literally took it off its feet.

I also have found that using a 260g Mag JHP has worked out much better at he same velocity range. The last one I got with it, hit the ground so quick I actually thought I missed it. The internal damage was similar to the CP bullet, and nothing close to what I expected. Considering the range was only about 20yds at max I figured I had simply ruined the poor thing. I was relieved to find a nice 1" or so entry through the onside shoulder and a caliber sized exit. The in between was however jello.


Thanks for posting up such a nice review of the hunt, and don't be shy about getting back out there and working on them some more. Hopefully in the upcoming weeks, I will be slamming a few more of them myself, with both handgun and a new bow.

Take care.

Shy hell, Mike! I'm just sorry I don't live in a state with a big hog population any more. Instead of killing porkers twice a month, now it's twice a year for me and quite frankly it's not enough. The XVR isn't mine and I will be giving it back soon, so I won't be performing any load development for it.

I think that light hollow points have no place in hog hunting. Now before I get jumped on, I think they are fine for small hogs, but you just know that 350-pounder will show up when you are packin' your light load! Many years ago, I had a Gold Dot fail miserably on a small meat pig. I know hat is one sample, but I have been witness to many more. They're tough buggers -- but not armor plated.

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
I don't buy into the slower the bullet the more damage theory.

Alex, call John Linebaugh up today if you have some time and ask him why 1,200 fps is the magic number for him. See what he says.

No one is rewriting the laws of physics here. But that seems to be the go-to explanation when this topic comes up for "discussion."

The temporary wound channel is just that, temporary. You know that there is elasticity in tissue. Because there's a large temporary wound channel, doesn't necessarily reflect on the size of the permanent wound channel.

We have argued this ad nauseum in the past and it's just too damn early (I've just poured myself my second cup of coffee ).

BTW, I think Roy Weatherby was full of shit!

Whitworth I think you were one of the first ones to say a good job on the nice buck I killed and posted about last nov. with my 41mag. I guess the hogs I have shot with my 357 and 44 haven't died because I haven't shot them get a life.

Just because some of us don't hunt just his handguns doesnt' mean we don't use them and doesn't mean we don't kill things with. them.

I guess carring a pistol evey day on the job doesn't count for anything I guess shooting thousands of rounds of handgun ammo evry year for the past 30 some years doesn't count for anything. I guess shooting and testing hundreds bullets in all kinds of media doesn't count for anything.

Your not even close to barking up the right tree when you when you ask about my handguning experiance. I 've been shooting handguns for over 40 some years. Get a life.

Bullets ziping through and not causeing damage because they are too fast still makes me laugh.

"I don't base bullet performance on one animal, I killed 2 black bear with my 45-70 with a 405 gr. hard cast WFN bullet. Both bear were shot through the lungs and they were destroyed, like a bowl of jello. The velocity was 1900 fps at a distance of 25 yards, and both bear recovered under 15 yards."

Come on Alex, you won't base bullet performance on one animal, but you will on three?

After killing a couple HUNDRED deer, I have come to the conclusion that faster velocities with expanding bullets generates more bruising of the lungs. However, once air leaves the lungs, be it by arrow or pickup truck, the texture is the same.

Now why the only thread that has featured a hunt in a while starts this pissing contest is beyond me. Handguns with cast bullets behave much differently than rifles with expanding bullets. Faster is not always better and advocating shooting a sped up, light for caliber bullet into a game animal of substance appears foolish to me.

How about everyone go to the woods and get about fifty or so kills with revolvers under their belt. Then with a little experience to base opinion on, let's discuss this some more.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Whitworth I think you were one of the first ones to say a good job on the nice buck I killed and posted about last nov. with my 41mag. I guess the hogs I have shot with my 357 and 44 haven't died because I haven't shot them get a life.

Just because some of us don't hunt just his handguns doesnt' mean we don't use them and doesn't mean we don't kill things with. them.

I guess carring a pistol evey day on the job doesn't count for anything I guess shooting thousands of rounds of handgun ammo evry year for the past 30 some years doesn't count for anything. I guess shooting and testing hundreds bullets in all kinds of media doesn't count for anything.

Your not even close to barking up the right tree when you when you ask about my handguning experiance. I 've been shooting handguns for over 40 some years. Get a life.

Bullets ziping through and not causeing damage because they are too fast still makes me laugh.

And I think your defensiveness doesn't help your argument. Shall we post up resumes next??

I never questioned your handgun experience, I questioned your handgun hunting experience -- go back read what I wrote. I carry a handgun every day as well. I too have been shooting them for decades, and I too test loads and bullets ad nauseum. Shooting them and hunting with them are not one in the same. I have no doubt that you are experienced, but when you mis-quote me about the bullets zipping through and not causing damage, you do the both of us a diservice. And by the way, the damage to the lungs was minimal.

Yes, I did congratulate you on that kill and will do it again the next time you post up a hunt report. But when you call a big-bore handgun -- and not a .44 mag -- a "pea-shooter," I can safely draw the conclusion that you have never hunted with one of the really big caliber handguns. Believe me when I say they are a considerable step up and I too own and hunt with some big rifles (.416 Remmie, .458 win mag, .458 Lott, etc), and I don't feel like I am giving anything up with my .475. Maybe that evidence is merely anecdotal to you, but I consider myself a pretty keen observer while many folks aren't.

Now, why are you getting all hot under the collar?? You're the one who came in here and took the tone to this level. Get a life?? Thanks, man.

Whitworth,

Thanks for sharing your hog hunt report. Congrats! As long as you had a good time and considered the hunt a success, that's all that counts. Cause some folks would be pissing and moaning about losing their electronics and lost critters. You didn't, but had every right to. That's a great attitude.

One question though. I'm not familiar with hog hunt fee schedules, only the way it's done in Africa. Were you charged a trophy fee for the wounded hog that was not recovered? Or is such a hunt priced as an all-encompassing flat fee where you shoot or wound as many as you want?

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
"I don't base bullet performance on one animal, I killed 2 black bear with my 45-70 with a 405 gr. hard cast WFN bullet. Both bear were shot through the lungs and they were destroyed, like a bowl of jello. The velocity was 1900 fps at a distance of 25 yards, and both bear recovered under 15 yards."

Come on Alex, you won't base bullet performance on one animal, but you will on three?

After killing a couple HUNDRED deer, I have come to the conclusion that faster velocities with expanding bullets generates more bruising of the lungs. However, once air leaves the lungs, be it by arrow or pickup truck, the texture is the same.

Now why the only thread that has featured a hunt in a while starts this pissing contest is beyond me. Handguns with cast bullets behave much differently than rifles with expanding bullets. Faster is not always better and advocating shooting a sped up, light for caliber bullet into a game animal of substance appears foolish to me.

How about everyone go to the woods and get about fifty or so kills with revolvers under their belt. Then with a little experience to base opinion on, let's discuss this some more.

MS Hitman, I gave a small example, that is not the extent of my handgun hunting. I have been handgun hunting for well over 30 plus years, and have kill a ton of animals with handguns, and I have killed a bunch with bows, rifles and muzzleloader's. So I think I have enough experience to discuss this. I just added my 2 cents in the conversation, no pissing contest here, only if you want to start one.

But I am not going to sit back and not respond if I don't agree with something that I have not seen for myself or experienced.

Whitworth, by the way great job and report of your hunt. I want to kill something bad, I am getting ready for my black bear hunt at the end of this month, but I will be using my bow, and I will have my 475 Linebaugh as my back up. If I don't get a good bow shot, I will use my 475 Linebaugh.

MARKO

Great report, thanks. .475 and .510's do something weird in handgun hunting, and, I can't measure it. Every had a Texas heart shot miss, go all the way through, and deer drops dead, in it's tracks, nothing vital hit? Explain that one to me. Only a lil .475 Linebaugh 420 grain LFN.

Sounds like you ran into the Mike Tyson of small hogs.;-)

Would you please tell the next hogs you shoot that they have to read the S&@ press reports, and, Steve Hornadys' propaganda on how great the .460 S&@ is?

If they do this, they should be gracious enough to drop dead, asap.

I think Tom has it right: .500JRH, HEAVY HOLLOW POINTS. That said, the .475 is no slouch, for such a cut little cartridge;-)

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
Whitworth,

Thanks for sharing your hog hunt report. Congrats! As long as you had a good time and considered the hunt a success, that's all that counts. Cause some folks would be pissing and moaning about loosing their electronics and lost critters. You didn't, but had every right to. That's a great attitude.

One question though. I'm not familiar with hog hunt fee schedules, only the way it's done in Africa. Were you charged a trophy fee for the wounded hog that was not recovered? Or is such a hunt priced as an all-encompassing flat fee where you shoot or wound as many as you want?

Thank you sir! I believe the outfitter cut me a break because I worked so hard for the swamp hog! You get a hog a day, I believe. You normally pay for a wounded animal even if it is not recovered.

Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate it!

Because I usually have to end them, starting one would be a change, wouldn't it Alex?

Plus you were comparing rifle to handgun. Anyhoo, just keeping you on your toes. You about healed up?