Notice the velocity ranges! The .44, 475 and .500 all shoot the same speeds with proper heavy boolits but as diameter goes up, so does boolit weight.
Weight added to diameter makes penetration and killing power better. I will take the larger calibers first even if it does not detract much from the .44.
The .44 with the wrong boolit or bullet can be sad too. Yet match it and it is a great killer.
The thing with larger calibers is that it is easier to find things that work all the time.

Whit; my goal is simply to kill...I mean, why should I insult the game animal any further by "slapping" it down. Have you no respect for what you hunt?!?!?!!?!?

By the way, you do not think that a 405 grain bullet in a 44 mag can deliver a good punch?

Really no sense in sticking around Whit, if all I can read about is "other" big bores. It seems that every body here shoots only 45 and up, so, I am not gaining any information from others experience with the 44 mag, and I have nobody to share my experiences with, and when I do, I get lambasted by all you big bore guys. This forum should be called the "45 and up Big Bore Forum....44 or less need not apply." Many years ago on another forum I had it out with some 45-70 shooters. I professed (as did a few other "Pro's") that the 444 Marlin had more power potential than the 45-70 in a "lever action" rifle. I really met with a good deal of resistance...and name calling. Well, I developed my ideas, and now have a 444 that will deliver the ballistics of a 450-400 Nitro Express in a lever gun with 400 grain bullets, and, the ballistics of the 375 H&H Magnum with the lighter bullets! Now all of the sudden, everybody is interested in my modifications....some being those same 45-70 guys that berated me years ago! Why...because one, we were correct...it could be done, and two, it takes a c3 load in a Ruger No.1 in 45-70 to achieve anything close to what I have to offer in my modified 444 lever guns. The long cylinder 44 mags (Ruger Redhawks, Dan Wessons, etc) opened up a whole new realm of ballistic achievement for the caliber. If it had in the past taken all game world wide with the standard lenght cylinders, it is much more suited to the job now. The 44 mag, despite its age, and "small" bore can still get the deed done...but better today than it ever could in the past. This makes the 44 mag a viable big game cartridge that should not be dismissed by handgun hunters, or those looking for a good back up handgun.

The .444 is simply a glorified .429 mag -- definitely not up to the .45/70 all things being equal. You're sorely missing the diameter point here. Merely speeding it up doesn't make up for its smaller size.

Wish you would stick around. We're only getting adamant about the big bores because you are adamant about the effectiveness of the .44.....it cuts both ways.

If you have so much respect for these animals, why are you killing them? Really?

No one says the .44 Mag can't kill game. I still take my .44s out hunting as well as my .475 and .500 Linebaughs. I just enjoy big bore revolvers and do not feel apologetic about it in the least. If I am working in areas where I know pigs are located, you can bet that .475 or .500 is going to be on my hip. They are better at stopping hogs and pigs than a .44. Yes, flat top, there is a difference in stopping and killing. And yes, I can put the bullets where I need them to go.

The main advantage of the longer cases is driving the bullets at the same velocities as the shorter case at lower pressure. I was making my .445 SuperMag cases from .303 Brit before Starline made them available. The .445 Gates cases had to be run worked through the sizing die because they were too soft to hold crimp. I can only guess as to the pressure you are putting on a .44 Mag to drive a 405 grain bullet; must be right on up there. I can drive the same weight bullet in a .475 or .500 at much lower pressure; heck, I can even do the same with a .45 caliber revolver.

Energy is a paper number and has no bearing on real world application. Pondoro Taylor printed this in African Game and Cartridges book. It is merely a number used to sell new cartridges to the uninformed; true back then and apparently rings true today.

As far as Whitworth slamming the door on you; you were the one who informed us you were off to your dream forum.

quote:

The .444 is simply a glorified .429 mag -- definitely not up to the .45/70 all things being equal.

...and, I have made all those things "unequal" !!!

I understand everything everybody here says...but,for those of us that use the 44 mag, and have a working realationship with it, we feel that there is not a need for any other handgun cartridge, regardless of how "better" it may be. I am not saying that Cottonstalk should not get a new big bore....all I am saying is the 44 mag or 45 LC with modern loadings will accomplish the same feat...kill things dead....and, there are not different levels of dead (as has been discussed in other threads).

I cant help it.....I come from a long line of gunpeople and hunters...its in my genes!

I have been building custom and competition rifles and handguns for well over 40 years...developed a line of wildcat cartridges...all that stuff, so I understand all about everything (including "energy" which I have not mentioned) you have said, but the long cylinder 44's were developed not to produce lower pressures but to drive heavier bullets faster by increasing the COL. Have you ever tried a 400 + grain bullet in a 44 mag...you should. We are now up to 420-425 grain bullets for the 44 mag and I an going to do some testing next fall.

I was putting Whit on...he is used to it, and being the good guy that he is, takes my diatribes, ineuendos, and wise a-- remarks with a grain of salt.....and, he always seems to hit me back harder than I hit him!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:I was putting Whit on...he is used to it, and being the good guy that he is, takes my diatribes, ineuendos, and wise a-- remarks with a grain of salt.....and, he always seems to hit me back harder than I hit him!!!!

Back when I boxed, I was counter-puncher.....

I have used 400 grain bullets in .45 caliber and they worked well, but not really as well as the 360s I have used. I think 400 grains in a .429 are way past the point of diminishing returns -- but we shall see in our upcoming penetration test!

I said main advantage, not reason for design. No point in fire-walling a .44 Mag when the .445 can perform at the same level with less pressure.

MS; You would be amazed at what the 405 grain bullet can do at a mere 1000 fps in the 44 mag....and, its a powderpuff load to shoot....very little recoil...very fast recovery....I am back to work.

quote:

Posted 06 January 2011 21:31 Hide Post
MS; You would be amazed at what the 405 grain bullet can do at a mere 1000 fps in the 44 mag....and, its a powderpuff load to shoot....very little recoil...very fast recovery....I am back to work.

This is very true and it is not the boolit weight that concerns me. It is the match to the twist for stability. That boolit is just too long for a 1 in 20" twist and can go unstable very fast.
Shooting it slow just limits your accuracy distance. True, it kills good and I will not dispute that but I would like to see targets shot at long range.
The .44 is versatile and can handle many weights but I find the 330 gr tops with the velocity I can get.
This is a 200 yard group shot with my boolit. Can you show what the 405 gr does? I do not think you can come anywhere near close at 25 yards.

bfr; No offense meant here, but again: I DO NOT SHOOT MY REVOLVERS BEYOND 50 OR 60 YARDS!!!! I use iron sights...my eyes are bad...and that is all I can handle with any degree of accuracy. If I need to shoot game at longer distances I use a rifle. The 405 I shoot prints at 3/4" at 20 yards, and about 2" at 50 to 60 yards. For what this load was designed to do (DG back up) the accuracy is more than adequate. There is no keyholing with this bullet at any velocity I have shot it at, out of either of my Redhawks with 1-20 twist rates, and in all test media...both hard and soft it drives straight. For regular hunting (deer) I have been playing with a 325 grain bullet at 1068 fps...very accurate...now all I need is a deer or two to try it out on. The 405's will shoot very well in a 1-20 twist, and, if it makes you happy, I felt the same way that you do...I did not think that bullet would stabilize in that twist, but, the originator of that load told me to try it...I did, and it will!!!! So, dont argue with me...get some...shoot them, and you will be as impressed as I am with the accuracy, penetration, and ease of shooting. When you get the 1000 fps load worked out, then take it to the max...its exhilerating!!!

Can't wait to test it, flat top!

Whit; You do have a Redhawk, correct. These loads are set up with a COL for the Redhawks long cylinder.

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:
Whit; You do have a Redhawk, correct. These loads are set up with a COL for the Redhawks long cylinder.

No, but I have access (bfrshooter) to a super blackhawk -- that is the gun we intend to test with. The only .429s I own now are Model 29s.

Whit; Well heck, that aint no good!!! My loads are set up for the Redhawk. The COL for that bullet in that gun is different. If bfr thinks he can get at least the 1000 fps velocity with the deep seated 405 in the Blackhawk, he can give them a try. I have a Blackhawk, but, have never shot the 405's in it. Heaviest bullet I use in a Blackhawk is 325 grain. I will see if the originator of that load has any short cylinder info........

What is the length of the barrel of your Redhawk? The SBH we plan on using has a 10-inch barrel and may be able to achieve those velocities with the bullet seated deeper. Just a thought.

I also have access to a Super REdhawk in .44 mag -- I forgot all about it. I will contact the guy this morning and see if I can borrow it in the name of science......

Whit, that makes it easy...what barrel lenght...I have loads for both 5 1/2, and 4".

quote:

Posted 07 January 2011 19:11 Hide Post
Whit, that makes it easy...what barrel lenght...I have loads for both 5 1/2, and 4".

What is the OAL of your loads? My SBH can take about 1.750"
The SRH can take about 3/32" longer lengths.
I don't have a RH here to measure.
The problem with loading deeper is the lack of a crimp groove. But we can get a SRH.
Can someone measure the length of a RH cylinder?

I think the Redhawk cylinder is the same length as the SRH.

Whit; The SBH cylinder lenght is 1.700....the RH cylinder length is 1.750....my 405 grain bullet rounds are 1.740....too long for a Blackhawk. RH and SRH have the same cylinder lengths. Regardless of where you crimp, the originator of this load told me that it would be a hard press to get 1000+ fps with a BH length load...might come close though. Would take some load development. The 405 grain bullet that I use has a double crimp groove...one for Redhawk and Anaconda lenght cylinders, and the other for 444 Marlin with neck turned cases. What length barrel are you going to use? I want to give you the load info that will put you at a tad over 1000 fps. I have two loads...one for the 5 1/2" and one for the 4". Both loads clock 1020 in thier respective barrel lengths.

The SRH I have in mind to use has a 7.5-inch barrel. I think the one that bfrshooter has access to also has a 7.5-inch barrel. The only other factory options for an SRH are a 2.5, and a 9.5-incher.

So, 7.5-inches......

Whit...ok, I would give you the 5 1/2" barrel load...that would be ballpark to the velocities I get. PM me your addy and I will get 10 bullets and the necessary load data to you early next week. I have to go out of town this weekend for my recertification test and seminar, so, first chance to get this done will be Monday. You will have the bullets and data, and you can do some testing, and report back. We have had some very good results with this bullet and load from six folks who have been playing with it, and in thier "comparative tests" against other "known stoppers" it fairs pretty well. Test distance to target has always been 10 yards for uniformity of results and comparisons. Remember, this load is about penetration only. It was designed to be used as a last ditch close range back up load....making it to the central nervous system or penetrating the skull of a LDG. It was not so much designed to kill as it was to stop or turn an attack, and be "controllable under recoil" for fast follow up shots. You will see when you shoot it that there is no drama or excitement involved. When you test it, compare it to something you shoot that has a "known" penetration value. A side by side test with all criteria being the same would be of great value to us, as would photos. If your favorite "penetrator" does not match the performance of this load, we need to know that... (not to demean you or your load/bullet/caliber, etc, but, to use for comparative study). If your penetrator exceeds the performance of this load, we would want specifics on that as well. I will report your results to the originator. I know he will be pleased that you chose to test his work.

PMd my address to you this morning.....

The day we test the 405s we will also test a bunch of others.

Thanks, flat top!

Excellent!!!! ....and, try to have enough media on hand to get "stop point" for all the bullets tested. If you say the 405 penetrates 13 jugs (or, whatever media you use) lets say, and then you say the 475 went through 15 jugs but was not recovered, that really doesnt tell us what we want to know. Knowing how far the 475 could penetrate to its stop point is necessary for an accurate comparison. Photos of recovered bullets also help in judging the strength and maleability of the alloy....this is "serious" stuff ...or, that is how we pursue these things, anyway. This kind of comparative testing can produce some very interesting results.

To date, the only bullet we have had exit the penetration box has been bfrshooter's 420 grain .475 bullet. It actually punched through the boards holding the box together. Everything else we tested fell quite a bit short, including the .470 Nitro Express solids we tested. We got decent numbers from other bullet/caliber combinations, but nothing really close enough to give the .475 with that bullet a run for its money.

Whit; Sounds good!!! This is a creampuff load with the 405, so it will be interesting to see how it all works out. Others working with the bullet have said that it penetrates way out of proportion to its weight and velocity...we shall see what you can come up with. These tests are only information gathering excersizes, and not designed to prove or disprove anything. That is the way we pursue these things......kinda like being "fair and balanced"