quote:

Posted 02 January 2011 20:52 Hide Post
bfr; More info needed! 1. Was that a 44 mag? 2. If so, what was the velocity of the load? 3. At what range were the deer shot. 4 Was that load ever tested for penetration, and if so, what was the media? Thanks! FT

Pete shoots my same load of 21.5 gr of 296 with the 320 gr from his .44 SRH. Velocity is 1316 fps.
The boolits he showed me were smeared off on one side of the nose from the bone and that caused them to turn in the deer.
BHN of the LBT's is showing 14. We never tested them for penetration.
However my 265 gr RD boolit made 33" of wet phone books with a straight path but they are 22 BHN.
I have never tested my 330 gr either but it is also 22 BHN and I never recovered any in a deer.
One of the deer Pete shot was about 20 yards (The wounded one. His friend gut shot it.) I don't know the rest.

Looks like we need to put together another penetration test. Maybe flat top can donate a few 405s for the cause (preferably loaded).....

That is a story in itself. Pete invited his friend Dave to hunt. He brought a .260. After he gut shot the deer Pete asked where the gun was sighted and Dave said he did not know!
Pete told him to sight it in and Dave said "Naw, I will just aim right!"
They got the deer home and Dave had no idea what to do because he always just took the deer to a butcher. Pete had to skin and quarter it for him. The meat went to the butcher anyway.
The definition of LAZY has Dave uninvited for a future hunt.
I remember when Dave bought a varmint rifle and spent weeks making up test loads to see what grouped best. Boxes of every bullet and load. Then he just shot them all at woodchucks, never put a single thing on paper!

quote:

Posted 03 January 2011 17:03 Hide Post
Looks like we need to put together another penetration test. Maybe flat top can donate a few 405s for the cause (preferably loaded).....

I'm up for it but wait until it warms up.

I will get Pete to donate some of his LBT's.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:

quote:

Posted 03 January 2011 17:03 Hide Post
Looks like we need to put together another penetration test. Maybe flat top can donate a few 405s for the cause (preferably loaded).....

I'm up for it but wait until it warms up.

I'm all for waiting for warmer weather......

bfr; Sounds like you buddy's poor bullet performance was due to the alloy.

Whit; Where do you live....I travel all over the country and could drop some off, or meet you somewhere as I pass by your location. I have them loaded and ready to go, and they will work in any 44 mag Redhawk with a 5 1/2" barrel (1020 fps)....or, I could send you some 405's and give you the loading data and you could roll your own...either/or.

Loaded would be perfect.....

PM coming your way.....

PM recieved and answered.

Thank you, sir!

Whit; Decide what you want to do, and let me know. It would be much easier just to mail the bullets, and have somebody assemble the loads for you "if" you dont reload....no magic, no rocket science...just simple handgun loads. We have had this load tested in many different mediums, by many different people...one being a bear hunter from the Upper UP. He said that he had no doubts as to the ability of this load to make it to the central nervous system of a large bear, or, penetrate the skull/brain to stop or turn an attack. We are confident that for its intended purpose (close range dangerous game back up) that it would get the job done.

Loading isn't the problem, loading yet another load is what I was trying to avoid, but whatever is easiest for you, works fine for me. Just send on the load data if you would be so kind. Thanks!

PM me you address, etc, and I will get some bullets and the load data out to you this week. I am off the the gunshop...there is work to be done.

Great, thanks Flat Top!

quote:

Posted 03 January 2011 18:34 Hide Post
bfr; Sounds like you buddy's poor bullet performance was due to the alloy.

I believe so. They are Cast Performance boolits. They usually do good but I prefer a good mushroom with expanding boolits or no damage at all for straight penetration.
A big bone does present some problems and can mess up a real good boolit. It is just strange that he had three this season that he lost penetration with. First time ever for both of us.
Pete has dropped deer to better then 150 yards with the SRH and not found a boolit.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:

quote:

Posted 03 January 2011 18:34 Hide Post
bfr; Sounds like you buddy's poor bullet performance was due to the alloy.

I believe so. They are Cast Performance boolits. They usually do good but I prefer a good mushroom with expanding boolits or no damage at all for straight penetration.
A big bone does present some problems and can mess up a real good boolit. It is just strange that he had three this season that he lost penetration with. First time ever for both of us.
Pete has dropped deer to better then 150 yards with the SRH and not found a boolit.

CAst Performance bullets have exited on Bison and Asian Buffalo for me with the 475 and 500 JRH and Linebaugh. They have exited 1000 pound Bison in the 45 Colt and 454

The .429 is an under penetrator on game always has been and always will be when compared to the big boys. It's like the Big Ten playing the SEC

quote:

Originally posted by cottonstalk:
Let's start a logical discussion here.I have a 44 & 45 colt and I am trying to justify,for reasons other than wants,a larger caliber.A 350 @ 1200 out of the colt I feel will handle everything up to and including the big stuff NA offers.Is there a logical solution?

Logic? Logic? Well....
1.) Eastern N.C., particularly Hyde County, has big bears. BIG.
2.) You live in eastern N.C.
3.) Seems clear that you need a .475 Linebaugh. NEED.
That's my best shot....

quote:

Originally posted by kenoneill:

quote:

Originally posted by cottonstalk:
Let's start a logical discussion here.I have a 44 & 45 colt and I am trying to justify,for reasons other than wants,a larger caliber.A 350 @ 1200 out of the colt I feel will handle everything up to and including the big stuff NA offers.Is there a logical solution?

Logic? Logic? Well....
1.) Eastern N.C., particularly Hyde County, has big bears. BIG.
2.) You live in eastern N.C.
3.) Seems clear that you need a .475 Linebaugh. NEED.
That's my best shot....

LOL!! Well said, Ken!

Piece of mind is a .475!

Bfrshooter;
.
Well said.
.
Bad section of Santa Ana, Ca, 2 AM, loaded 475L in hand.......
.
Yup bfrshooter, you hit it .............

Santa Ana???? I was thinking South Central La La Land - in the broad daylight.......

Whitworth;
.
F Troop area of Santa Ana was just as bad as South Central LA, just smaller.
.
Car breakdown. All I could think of if somebody pulled up and drew a gun:
.
Ala; and I paraphrase Mr Dundee:
.
"That's not a gun; THIS is a gun!!!!"
.

And I will Kill your CAR!!!!!
.
Slipped it under my belt in back at the 7-11, all went well.
.
.
Peace of mind........priceless!!!!!!

I was just reading another thread on this forum, where some of you here were touting the 10mm and its ability to get the job done...while on this forum you demean the ability of the 44 mag....priceless!!!

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:
I was just reading another thread on this forum, where some of you here were touting the 10mm and its ability to get the job done...while on this forum you demean the ability of the 44 mag....priceless!!!

.40 caliber is just a hair smaller than a little .429......

.475 - .452 = .023
.452 - .429 = .023
.429 - .410 = .019
.429 - .400 = .029...Whoa!!! thats a huge difference...much more than the 429 to the 452!!!!!

I would say the 10mm is a "hair smaller" than a 41 mag..."much smaller" than a 44 mag!!! But, the differences are "minute". I work with tight tolerances everyday, and believe me the differences "from one bullet size to another" are infintesimal. There is a huge difference between the .224 and the .375, yet both will kill a polar bear...and so will the 44 mag, so, it is much ado about nothing. what got to me was the poster in the other thread was being told how great the 10mm is, and then in this thread everybody bad mouths the 44 mag...again, "PRICELESS"!!!!! I am sure you are all big fans of the mighty 9mm as well!!!!

Basically, .429 and below is small......you need to step up to a big bad .45 Colt if you want to see some real damage. The .429 is over achieving.......

..........I seriously doubt that the game that I have shot with the 44 mag would notice any difference between it and something larger. Thats why this conversation is much ado about nothing. Again, every game animal in the world has been taken with the 44 mag...nothing else is "needed".

Contrare Mohair! The .44 squeaks by on the truly big stuff. Why settle for squeaking by? For deer you can make that arguement, but that's about it.

Have you tried a .475 on game? Or a .500 Linebaugh? JRH? You don't seem to know what you are missing! Try it, flat top, you might really like it! A .480 would be a good alternative if you don't like heavy recoil. Seriously, you should give the big-bores a chance.

Thanks guys,my wife has been reading this also and we have had some chuckles.Thanks for the try Ken but it didn't help cause I bear hunted for years and alot in that part of the country(hyde co.) with just a 44mag.

I hope,money available,to start a project by mid year but we'll see.

flat top gotta give you some props for not budging.I was highly impressed with the killing power of the 475L,but more so at the way it happened,as the animal acted as if it was spined and the wound tract was no where near the spine.I was impressed.

"every game animal in the world has been taken with the 44 mag...nothing else is "needed"." to a point flat top I get that, but these quotes say a whole lot also "we have bigger and stronger guns today but we're still shooting the same small cartridges and asking more and more performance out of them"JL & "Don't Send a Boy to Do a Man's Job." Brian Pearce says, "It's like pulling a 24-foot stock trailer loaded with horses with a (small) Toyota pickup." You are gonna over-work the truck to get the job done. With too heavy of bullet in any given caliber we're overworking the gun"JL & "If you are after dangerous or really big game, don't load your little gun up. Load your big gun normal. In other words, don't send a boy to do a man's job"JL


Will an animal know if it was a 320/.429 that took him out or a 420/.476?I doubt it,but the difference I feel is that with the .429 he'll have time to think about it where as with the .476 he won't.

HAPPY NEW YEAR to everyone!

Cottonstalk is correct, even Ray Charles could see the difference in the way a 475 hits game compared to a .429

And can I get an AMEN!

Cottonstalk; I had entertained (a long time ago) buying one of the new big bores (I guess we all go through that stage), but, every time I weighed the cost of not only the new gun, but all the loading equipment, gunbelts, etc, that I would need to go with it....and, considering the FACT that the 44 mag has taken every game animal in the world, I really did not see a "need" to make the change ("if it aint broke...why try to fix it?")...besides, the old 44 mag has always served me well. All the big bore boys brag about their heavy bullets and their wide meplats, well the 405 grain 44 mag bullet that I shoot has great SD (.270 something) and a .340 meplat, and if you cant kill anything with that 405 at 1250 fps (my elephant load) you dont need to be hunting in the first place! The 44 mag is a superb penetrator with bullets in the 300 to 325 grain class and velocities of 1000 fps...for deer, hogs, black bear, or elk....but, it takes a "hunter" to get within handgun range to do the deed....and, it takes a "shooter" to make the shot. I personally am not the type to use the rationale that "I may need a bigger gun if my shot is misplaced" (because I dont misplace my shots), and I have never been a proponent of the "bigger is better" ideaology. If something works...it works...pretty simple. I know a good number of handgun hunters around here, and most of them are younger fellas and everytime something new and big comes out they just have to have it. Us old timers still use our 44 mags and Specials, 41's, and 357's and darned if they dont kill deer just like the "big" bores do!!!! I really dont care how a game animal reacts to being shot. I do not go into the woods for entertainment, drama, or, excitement. I go into the woods to kill, and my 44 mag has done a splendid job of that for me for near 45 years...I could not ask for more!

If you don't go out to the woods for entertainment, what is the point of hunting? You aren't relying on deer season for your yearly sustenance........so you must do it because you enjoy it. Yes? No? But if you really do go into the woods to "kill," all the more reason for a .475 or .500 -- true killin' machines. No muss, no fuss........

Shooting and hunting with big bores doesn't have to be a "youth" pursuit. I started with a .429 when I was a young veteran and college student (before then it was a .38 special), but I have since graduated. I don't buy into the "bigger is better for a misplaced shot" theory. I too take great pride in placing my shots and quite frankly, it is much harder to master the big kickers than it is a .44 magnum.

In all of my penetration testing, the .44 in all of its iterations has fallen short of other calibers like the .475. Is all that penetration necessary? Maybe not, but it's nice knowing it'll exit nearly any and every animal.

Yes, the .429 will get it done, but the .475 will get it done better.

Not trying to be a contrarian, flat top......

jwp and Whit; As I stated above to Cottonstalk...I could really care less about how a bullet hits the game, or the reaction of the game. If I get a wound channel "through" the game which I always do with the 44 mag, The rest is history. Many years ago, when handgun hunting started to gain steam, many folks around here hunted deer with just about anything they had.....my first handgunned deer was taken with the 45 ACP and a hardball....one shot kill! Then, I moved up to the Speer 200 grain HP at 1000 fps...then on to a Blackhawk in 44 mag. A few years later a Blackhawk in 44 Special...a sweet handgun for deer. The 44 mag is still considered by the "experts" to be the minimum handgun caliber for large dangerous game, and at one time was considered to be "the" caliber for the same. The 44 mag got the job done when all these new fangled big bores were non-existant...it can still get the job done now. The "constant" in all of this is the game animal...nothing has changed....they are no bigger, tougher, or meaner than they were back in the day when the 44 mag was king....which to my way of thinking makes the big bores that you both highly tout, nothing more than overweight, overbore, overcharged, forehead busting, carpal tunnel and tendonitis creating, powder and lead wasting (keep in mind its a tough economy and we all have to conserve)...handguns. Well, I am leaving this forum. I have found a new handgun forum dedicated to the 44 mag. The moderators are great folks. Anytime a thread about a 475, 480, 500 or anything like that is posted, the moderators lock the thread and delete its content! Who could ask for more!!!!!

Well, don't let the big-bore hit you in the butt on the way out......

Just kidding!

Why are you picking up your ball and going home?

Why not go back to the .44-40 or .44 Rimfire? Or whatever else was used more than 100 years ago? Why use the .44 mag when that clearly represents progress? I can use the same argument now.

You said yourself that the .44 is considered a minimum for dangerous game? Why settle for the minimum? I know that animals haven't gotten any tougher, but if a bullet/cartridge combination does something better, why not use it? What is your objection and resistence to using something that is better?

An all .44 mag forum? How many members, one or two?

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:which to my way of thinking makes the big bores that you both highly tout, nothing more than overweight, overbore, overcharged, forehead busting, carpal tunnel and tendonitis creating, powder and lead wasting (keep in mind its a tough economy and we all have to conserve)...handguns.

My .500 Linebaugh actually weighs a few ounces less than my 6.5-inch Model 29. Sure it kicks more, it makes really big holes, and is a pleasure to carry.

quote:

Originally posted by flat top: The moderators are great folks. Anytime a thread about a 475, 480, 500 or anything like that is posted, the moderators lock the thread and delete its content! Who could ask for more!!!!!

I don't know, a pair of pink lace panties to wear while reading the forum threads? Seriously, can't be much of a forum if the subject matter is so narrow. However, if that is what you enjoy, more power to you.

Whit!!! Quit slamming the screen door on my a--!!!

We all want to achieve the same goal when we hunt. If I can achieve that goal, and you can achieve that goal using different means, so be it....but, are either of those means any better than the other, if they both accomplish the same goal? This all goes back to the Science of Reason...logic.

What do you call the "same goal?" If your goal is to merely kill, than you can use whatever is at your disposal. But, if your goal is to slap an animal down right now, then stepping up to the plate and enjoying a hearty serving of delectible .475 is the way to go. There is a difference.

I hope this means that you are going to stick around.