http://www.youtube.com/watch?N...e=fvwp&v=C4OE78spknk

500 sw REVEOLVER accidentially double taps in recoil --
i have not seen this before

I've nearly had that happen a while back on a Taurus Ultra-lite .44 Mag.

That POS gun was unlocking enough during recoil that the cylinder was rotating after the shot and the firing pin was striking the edge of the next primer. Thankfully it didn't double, as the cylinder wasn't rotating enough to line up the next cylinder with the barrel. That could've been real bad!

Kudos to that girl for hanging on to that 500!!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?N...e=fvwp&v=C4OE78spknk

500 sw REVEOLVER accidentially double taps in recoil --
i have not seen this before

It's a lot more common than you think. Very dangerous situation.

If you watch closely, the chamber to the left of the one under the firing pin is the one that fired. I would really like to understand just how that happened.

I believe the cylinder is unlocking and rotating backwards.

I'd heard of this early on in the X-frame history.
I think that S&W remedied this problem quite some time ago.
It's never happened with my PC Hunter, but I've always been mindful of the potential and purposefully manage my trigger on heavy-recoiling double action revolvers.


It would seriously suck rocks to have one of those things touch off in a significantly out-of-time condition.
Talk about ouch...



Cheers
Tinker

You can't cycle the trigger as fast as it's firing the second time. I reject the notion that the shooter is to blame in these instances.

May I assume this does not or cannot happen on a single action wheelgun?

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
May I assume this does not or cannot happen on a single action wheelgun?

I've not heard of any single actions unlocking and rotating backwards. Usually the problem is bullets jumping crimp and locking the revolver up.

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
May I assume this does not or cannot happen on a single action wheelgun?

Just the double action.....

This is easily explained. I have seen it happen to a few people shooting my S&W 500 Mag. What the people do is when the gun recoils, they squeeze tight to control the gun, and actually pull the trigger a second time causing the gun to fire again. It has nothing to do with an unsafe condition, it is cause by a novice shooter, or someone that is not use to the heavy recoil of the 500 Mag.

I have been using that same gun myself, and it never happened to me, even after 4000 rounds. So yes it is the shooter that does it, it is not a gun malfunction at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
This is easily explained. I have seen it happen to a few people shooting my S&W 500 Mag. What the people do is when the gun recoils, they squeeze tight to control the gun, and actually pull the trigger a second time causing the gun to fire again. It has nothing to do with an unsafe condition, it is cause by a novice shooter, or someone that is not use to the heavy recoil of the 500 Mag.

I have been using that same gun myself, and it never happened to me, even after 4000 rounds. So yes it is the shooter that does it, it is not a gun malfunction at all.

SOmetimes that does happen, but I know of it happening to a very experienced big bore heavy recoil shooter. No novice atr all.
Also the double tap in the video fires the second shot too fast IMHO to have been induced by the shooter

quote:

Posted 23 January 2012 17:57 Hide Post
This is easily explained. I have seen it happen to a few people shooting my S&W 500 Mag. What the people do is when the gun recoils, they squeeze tight to control the gun, and actually pull the trigger a second time causing the gun to fire again. It has nothing to do with an unsafe condition, it is cause by a novice shooter, or someone that is not use to the heavy recoil of the 500 Mag.

Not true.
The cylinder lock spring is too weak and due to the geometry of the system, recoil unlocks the cylinder. The cylinder rotates backwards from torque and hammer bounce fires the chamber OPPOSITE of normal rotation.
Mark a chamber once and have someone shoot it to failure and you will see it is NOT the next chamber or another trigger pull. It will be the reverse chamber. It happens with the first shot with a full cylinder, never with a fired round in reverse. But the next shot might just be a "click."
Your gun needs fixed, plain and simple.
I have cured backwards rotation in the .44 S&W by putting a tiny lock tumbler spring inside the factory cylinder lock spring. I could not find a stronger spring to fit.
The .44 never doubled but had a lot of clicks on the already fired chamber.
There is no way humanly possible to reset and pull the trigger a second time as fast as the gun doubles.
This s a very, very dangerous situation sending a .500 bullet over the target into the air.
Just a cheap spring made too light for a lighter double action pull. Who shoots a .500 double action?
Think about it. the trigger is back all the way, the hammer block is down so the hammer can bounce to the firing pin again. Hammer bounce can be seen with videos of single actions, pressure to the primer has enough force to push the hammer back a long way. It has to fall again.
Even a stronger hammer spring will help in the S&W to slow bounce. It is real.

It happens way too fast to attribute to squeezing the trigger a second time.

Yes, it sounds like one shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
This is easily explained. I have seen it happen to a few people shooting my S&W 500 Mag. What the people do is when the gun recoils, they squeeze tight to control the gun, and actually pull the trigger a second time causing the gun to fire again. It has nothing to do with an unsafe condition, it is cause by a novice shooter, or someone that is not use to the heavy recoil of the 500 Mag.

I have been using that same gun myself, and it never happened to me, even after 4000 rounds. So yes it is the shooter that does it, it is not a gun malfunction at all.

I agree with Redhawk, I have seen it happen.
The shooter shoots the first shot, allows the trigger to go back forward, and due to the heavy recoil, "squeezes" their hand, and all their fingers, "hard", and fires the second shot.

There is no doubt, after watching this video, I am sure this is what happened.

IF you have ever seen actual film footage of Ed McGivern shooting, you would know that the seond shot can be fired that fast...

Also, I do think that ANYONE, that lets an unexperienced person, not used to heavy handgun recoil, shoot a handgun more powerful than a 357 Mag, should be held Criminally and $$$$, responsible for any mishaps.

I do know of an instance in Texas where a young boy on a dove hunt, was killed, when he fired a 454 and the barrel struck him in the head. He was dead when he hit the ground...

I have worked with S&W when I first seen this happen back in 2004. I sent my gun in just to make sure there were no problems with the gun, and S&W sent it back with a clean bill of health. I also spoke with the tech department, and they had the same explanation as I had for the second firing of the case. When it happened in my gun, the 2 bullets fired were fired in the right order. I checked how the empty cases were indexed in the cylinder, and they were as if the trigger was pulled twice. That was not caused by the cylinder rotating backwards.

bfrshooter, if that was the problem with my gun, it would of happened to me, after all I have shot over 3000 rounds in this gun, and it never happened to me, So please explain your theory on that one to me. If there were indeed a problem with my gun as you eluded too.

The people I had shooing my 500 Mag were all long time handgun shooters, but never fired a 500 mag. Once they experienced the recoil, they did not have that problem again. I don't let novice shooter shoot my 500 mag or any other heavy recoiling gun for safety reasons.

The trigger was pulled twice, I don't care how you all try to explain it away.

Marked chambers with a marking pen has shown backwards rotation. Pictures and videos have been taken that show no trigger finger movement under recoil.
The second shot would have to be double action with a much stronger trigger pull and that is not possible to do before the first shot has reached the recoil peak. The recoil is only at half when the gun fires again.
We have studied it and it is like the model 29's that had the cylinder rotate backwards and then the next shot did not happen, just "click."
It is a ten cent spring. I fixed 29's with a one cent spring.
You can prevent it by leaving the chamber under the hammer empty until the cylinder lock spring is replaced.
You can prove it by taking slow motion video of those that have the gun double.
S&W also said operator error, sorry it does not happen that way. Weak holds that allow more torque will turn the cylinder backwards all the way to the reverse chamber.
The shots are so close together it is not possible to pull the trigger again double action.
Do the work and don't believe S&W. Mark a chamber and shoot one shot. If it has not gone off the lock backwards it means you held very tight with no torque and the lock fell back into the cylinder slot. I assure you it came out of lock for an instant. The next person can have it double.
I am willing to bet the cylinder did move backwards a little for you but was picked up by the hand for the next shot.
Single actions have the hand come up from the other side and do not suffer from doubling. (Reverse torque to rotation) The only ones that doubled were some Colts that pierced primers forcing the hammer to full cock while the trigger was still back. They fired the NEXT chamber, not the reverse one.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Who shoots a .500 double action?

ME!

Here's the video to prove it: http://youtu.be/tV2JXVWX3VU


By the way, I don't understand the idea that the cylinder can rotate backward and fire another round. I got my 500 out, and once the trigger has been pulled, the cylinder is locked up until the trigger has been fully reset. This is independent of the hammer position. The only way for it to rotate backward is if the hammer moves to the rear while the trigger is not being depressed. In which case the gun can't fire because the firing pin block is in the way. It seem to me that a bump fire is much more likely and could occur once the gun has recoiled far enough to reset the trigger. About an inch or so.

quote:

Originally posted by 56hawk:

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Who shoots a .500 double action?

ME!

Here's the video to prove it: http://youtu.be/tV2JXVWX3VU


By the way, I don't understand the idea that the cylinder can rotate backward and fire another round. I got my 500 out, and once the trigger has been pulled, the cylinder is locked up until the trigger has been fully reset. This is independent of the hammer position. The only way for it to rotate backward is if the hammer moves to the rear while the trigger is not being depressed. In which case the gun can't fire because the firing pin block is in the way. It seem to me that a bump fire is much more likely and could occur once the gun has recoiled far enough to reset the trigger. About an inch or so.

THe cylinder latch unlocks and the cylinder rotates under recoil. They should not do this but some will and have. I have seen it happen with some model 29's and a few of the X-Frames in 500 S&W. Watch the video posted n the opening post closely. This gun fires 2 shots that sound like 1.

quote:

THe cylinder latch unlocks and the cylinder rotates under recoil. They should not do this but some will and have. I have seen it happen with some model 29's and a few of the X-Frames in 500 S&W. Watch the video posted n the opening post closely. This gun fires 2 shots that sound like 1.

This is true.
Watch a video closely and you can see hammer bounce at firing. I don't know if it is from internal pressure on the firing pin through the primer or just recoil. It may surprise you how far a hammer bounces back and if the cylinder rotates backwards it is enough to fire a round.
Watch a single action too, you will see the hammer come way back even before recoil comes on.
I put over power Wolff springs in all of my SA's so there is less to see but it is there.
Light hammer springs for trigger pulls just make it worse.
We see slow motion of bullets out the barrel but never of the gun itself. There is a lot going on we don't see.
Too bad some of us do not have high speed cameras. It would be interesting.

The resident know it all's have spoken. Time for me to leave again. That is why I don't come here much any more. I need chest waders for all the bull crap!

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
The resident know it all's have spoken. Time for me to leave again. That is why I don't come here much any more. I need chest waders for all the bull crap!

are you picking up your ball and going home?

relax dude. seems like everyone is discussing the issue and only you are refusing to give the other side a chance to explain there position.

I've got another question. If you watch the end of the video the guy unloads the revolver and there are only two casings in the cylinder. It's impossible to tell from the video, but if the cylinder rotated backwards to fire the second shot then the gun wasn't indexed correctly when they loaded it. There was no mention of this in the video, so I still think it's more likely it was a bump fire.

quote:

Originally posted by maxenergy:

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
The resident know it all's have spoken. Time for me to leave again. That is why I don't come here much any more. I need chest waders for all the bull crap!

are you picking up your ball and going home?

relax dude. seems like everyone is discussing the issue and only you are refusing to give the other side a chance to explain there position.

There is no other position, this has been discussed many times on the S&W site, years ago. Even Smith & Wesson has confirmed what I posted. Opinions and speculation don't beat out the facts. 34 posts, I see you have been here a long time. Sit back and wait, the resident exberts will set you stright with all their knowledge.

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:

quote:

Originally posted by maxenergy:

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
The resident know it all's have spoken. Time for me to leave again. That is why I don't come here much any more. I need chest waders for all the bull crap!

are you picking up your ball and going home?

relax dude. seems like everyone is discussing the issue and only you are refusing to give the other side a chance to explain there position.

There is no other position, this has been discussed many times on the S&W site, years ago. Even Smith & Wesson has confirmed what I posted. Opinions and speculation don't beat out the facts. 34 posts, I see you have been here a long time. Sit back and wait, the resident exberts will set you stright with all their knowledge.

so post count somehow makes one more credible? still think you are close minded. i looked at that vidoe many times and that girl is not squeezing a second time. it is obvious there is a problem. i have seen m29's unlock under recoil as well and believe this is what is happening. seems youve made up your mind no matter what facts may be presented. now i have 35 posts

Lighten up, newbie.

Here is a link to another with some slowed down frames:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?N...screen&v=d8NDGxzlfo4

quote:

Originally posted by dvnv:
Here is a link to another with some slowed down frames:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?N...screen&v=d8NDGxzlfo4

This link shows the phenomenon more clearly.

quote:

Originally posted by dvnv:
Here is a link to another with some slowed down frames:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?N...screen&v=d8NDGxzlfo4

Watching this video it seems obivious to me that the shooter IS pulling the trigger a second time.

I'll stick to my single actions!

A little off subject sorry.........

I did have a chain-fire once with a Walker reproduction. Early in my revolver days and some 20 years stupider ago, I thought I could lower the hammer on a percussion cap without setting it off. BIG MISTAKE. I had forgot to seal the other chamber mouths or put caps over the nipples. All six at once. Not fun. Didn't drop it though. That pretty well endedmy BP days.

Sorry to get off subject.

Andy

Seems like the hammer gets cocked very early in the recoil then it takes a bit before it falls on the second shot. I am not sure it is purely a double trigger pull...if it was, I'd think the trigger finger would still be travelling outwards as the gun raises, but the hammer is already back. Plus, he has a death grip and is flinching too, so it is not like his trigger finger is relaxed to move all that far forward.

I am amazed that he hangs on to the second shot.

quote:

Also, I do think that ANYONE, that lets an unexperienced person, not used to heavy handgun recoil, shoot a handgun more powerful than a 357 Mag, should be held Criminally and $$$$, responsible for any mishaps.

I agree 100%. Nothing burns me more that seeing someone handing the biggest and baddest gun to a small framed person (a woman) who has no idea of how to handle recoil. There are too many youtube videos showing what happens to these women when they're not able to absorb such energy. How any MATURE shooter can take enjoyment or find humor in this is beyond me.

I, for one, fail to see the fun in watching women get split lips, bloody noses, and cut brows. This not how you introduce someone to shooting. PERIOD.

Couldn't agree more, Caretaker. Some folks seem to take a sick pleasure in hurting others who don't know what they are getting into. Sad, really.

quote:

Originally posted by dvnv:
Seems like the hammer gets cocked very early in the recoil then it takes a bit before it falls on the second shot. I am not sure it is purely a double trigger pull...if it was, I'd think the trigger finger would still be travelling outwards as the gun raises, but the hammer is already back. Plus, he has a death grip and is flinching too, so it is not like his trigger finger is relaxed to move all that far forward.

I am amazed that he hangs on to the second shot.

That's the way that I saw it also

Almost had this happen to me today. I was practicing the El Presidente and on one of my draws I had a funny grip on the gun. It felt really strange after the first round went off so I opened the cylinder, and there was a light strike on the second round. Not sure exactly what happened, but I can say the cylinder rotated forward and not backward.

Here is a video of a run without any problems: http://youtu.be/Bfq5mEGAa8c

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
It happens way too fast to attribute to squeezing the trigger a second time.

Really?????
http://youtu.be/lLk1v5bSFPw

Yep.

That reminds me - Years back I was working on my BHP trigger and was testing it as I went along.I had injured my wrist badly and when I fired I felt a pain in my wrist and the gun doubled [?]. I immediately gave it to a friend who was with me ,to fire .Obviously no doubling !!
That recoil on injured wrist caused me to convulse and fire a second shot ,VERY fast .As fast as a double from a defective trigger, like full auto speed.
Yes it can be done !!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?N...e=fvwp&v=C4OE78spknk

500 sw REVEOLVER accidentially double taps in recoil --
i have not seen this before

I know a very experienced shooter that was testing an X-Frame 500 S&W and the darned thing doubled on him. S&W has a problem that they are unwilling to admit to at this point