The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Handgun Hunting double tap with a 500 sw -- NOTICE THIS IS AN A.D.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| double tap with a 500 sw -- NOTICE THIS IS AN A.D. | Login/Join |
| Moderator |
George, I'll stand by my comment, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. One of my cousins, who is past president of the S&W collector's association several times agrees with me. He bleeds blue & white and is one Roy's best friends. We are in TOTAL agreement on the PC crap. My point about recoil and momentum is pointed to it exceeded the capability of the springs to withstand the recoil generated by the cartridge. I concede that some may be pulling the trigger a second time. However, I maintain there is the possibility the springs are not holding up to the task and may play a role in the second round being discharged. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
|
Moderator |
Interesting "discussion" While I can grasp the cylinder latch loosing tension under recoil and the cylinder rotating, I'm having a hard time grasping how during the guns recoiling the hammer can move back against the force of recoil and then drop again. It may seem implausable for an inexperienced shooter to be able to cycle an action faster than the greatest speed shooters, but you have to realize this is a subsconcious action of someone who is terrified. For all intents and purposes they are unconsciously clutching on for their life, with the result of firing a second shot. I've never understood the mindset of people who hand the most powerful sporting guns to beginners and then taking some sort of sick amusement at the gun getting away from them. And we wonder why there are those who are afraid of guns? I don't think they'll ever be a consensus of what causes this event as I assume that these events are all unexpected and hence not caught on a high speed camera. I would also assume that if the event is due to a mechanical weakness in the guns design, it would be a repeatable event. If the recoil pulse is consistant shot to shot, then the gun would be expected to behave the same way. If however it is an issue of a fight or flight response from an inexperienced shooter, that would lead more creadance to the event happening rarely, and not being a consistantly repeatable event. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
|
one of us |
MS Hitman, if the spring was bad as you say in the 500 Mag, why then after over a few thousand rounds fired by myself, did this not happen to me? When I had this happen with my gun, it was when I first got my 500 Mags, and everyone wanted to shoot it. So if the springs were bad then, why then did it never occurred with me? Whitworth, I did not buy into any hype about the S&W 500 Mag, I am the type of person that buys all kinds of guns, and test them out for my own experience. Ask George how many guns I have bought over the past 10 years, probably more guns than you will ever know. If I am going to talk about a gun, I damn sure better at least have actual experience, rather than just talk about them. If I like a gun I keep it, if I don't I sell them. And lets not get into a political pissing match with you Hope and Change comment. I don't buy into hype and I don't take other people words for anything, I find out for myself!
If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
|
Moderator |
Redhawk, are you thick? We were discussing the phenomenon that has plagued these guns since inception. So now you have to have ten years of experience with a particular gun to talk about it? Wow, that should and would put an end to all discussion on these sites. What did I say specifically that was false? I'm still waiting........ In typical fashion you made an assertion that is false, and when called on it, you got defensive. You are always so quick to jump to judgement and conclusions. Perhaps if you read a little more slowly, you would comprehend what was written a little bit better. Give it a rest, you don't have to ALWAYS have the last word. Why did I know you would react to "Hope and Change?"  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
|
| one of us |
Whitworth, the false claim you make is about mechanical problems, when there is NONE! I comprehend very well, and I don't have to read slow to understand bullshit when I read it. You are not even thinking it is possible for someone to pull the trigger a second time, so who is the one that is THICK! Please explain how the hammer goes back under recoil and fires another round, do you actually know how the S&W action works? Oh you know I would respond to the hope and change, as that POS of a President is not someone I would EVER vote for or believe in for America. Obama SUCKS! You can have the last word, I am done with this issue, but it was fun while I had you on my hook..  If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
|
| one of us |
Paul, just for the record, anyone that shot my 500 Mag, was an experienced shooter that never shot a 500 Mag. I would never have a novice shoot a 500 Mag. I am always trying to get more shooters into the sport. I start almost everyone off with a .22, as it is not expensive to shoot and is a lot of fun for new shooters.
If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
|
| Moderator |
You had me on your hook! Haha! Okay, Redhawk, you can make that claim to cover your tracks. You have saved face!  I said, for the record, that I don't think that pulling the trigger twice explains all of the doubling that is happening. I concede that point. But you insist it explains everything. So, smart guy, tell me why mine would routinely unlock and rotate backwards? Just like a Model 29 (considering that Smith & Wesson simply scaled up the N-frame). Now about 25 posts ago, you said that you were picking up your ball and going home, but you evidently lied. So please, make good on your promise and run along. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
|
| one of us |
Whitworth, the unlock problem does not cause the 2nd round being fired. That has nothing to do with what was being talked about. Maybe some of the guns do have a problem unlatching, but that does not cause the second round being fired. Two separate issues here. Also on all 5 of my S&W 500 Mag, I never had the unlatch problem. Also if you think I am going to go away because you tell me to, you are sadly mistaken. If you want me gone so bad, Ban Me! If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
|
| Moderator |
A most tempting thought, but anyway.... If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
|
| one of us |
Paul H that is exactly the question I have been asking, perhaps not as clearly as you. So, can we get off the personal attacks and back and forth (which I am guessing goes back many years) and have someone answer Paul's question? I know that moderators are humans too, but..... Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
|
| Moderator |
I am not sure the hammer is or has to move back. This may be a situation in which the trigger is held forward by spring tension with the firing pin protruding and causing a slam fire. Of course, this is all speculation on my part, as I have not witnessed nor had this happen to me or around me. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
|
| Moderator |
I've experienced inconsistant primer ignition when going to a lighter mainspring in my super redhawk. Thus I'm having a hard time grasping how if the hammer is held down under recoil with the firing pin protruding that the protruding firing pin can have enough force to ignite the primer as the round rotates into battery. Furthermore, if the firing pin is protruding, I'm having a hard time grasping how the cylinder can rotate out of battery, let alone allow a new round to come into battery. For that to happen the X frame would have to be so flexible that the cylinder window stretches say 0.040-0.060" to allow the protruding firing pin clearance to allow the fired round to clear the firing pin, then allow the cylinder to rotate to the next round, then the flexible frame contracts allowing the primer to ignite. To me the only plausable explanation is the shooter pulling off a second shot as they frantically grasp trying to hold onto the gun under recoil. I'm neutral on S&W, don't love em, don't hate em, and currently don't own any. To me the 500 S&W and X frame hold no appeal. That said, this characterization that the X frame 500 is some sort of massively flawed design is a bit hard to swallow. More gun than most can handle, no argument from me. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
|
| Moderator |
My best S&W revolvers are from the '50s. Don't own a .500 and have no intention of acquiring on. What you can and can't swallow is a personal thing. I've been around enough of this stuff to see some weird things happen. While it's not an uncotrollqble recoil, it is a high pressure cartridge and these tend to find the weak spots in a hurry. As I said, this speculation onmy part as I have not personally witnessed this event. However, sliding off an indented primer does not seem outside the realm of possibility. Slam firing has occurred on several makes. The Model 29s suffered from this and the performance packages helped. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
|
One of Us |
If the trigger is forward the hammer can't reach the firing pin. Rusty's Action Works Montross VA. Action work for Cowboy Shooters & Manufacturer of Stylized Rigby rifle sights. http://i61.photobucket.com/alb.../th_isofrontleft.jpg | |||
|
| One of Us |
I already have, the hammer is held tightly to the frame during recoil because the frame is accelerating backward and the hammer's mass is all to one side of its pivot hole, so the hammer is traveling with the frame to the rear. The frame doesn't suddenly stop during recoil and the hammer fly back, its not possible. Rusty's Action Works Montross VA. Action work for Cowboy Shooters & Manufacturer of Stylized Rigby rifle sights. http://i61.photobucket.com/alb.../th_isofrontleft.jpg | |||
|
One of Us |
Why doesn't happen on something like the 329? Seems to have a bit more recoil than the 500 with with factory loads to me. I think the answer has to be the sheer mass of the cylinder on the 500 combined with the hammer bounce. Here is a picture of hammer bounce from a 329 if you can access the page. https://db3d9074-a-62cb3a1a-s-...tljWW&attredirects=0 Rusty, I've always understood hammer bounce to be from the case slamming against the recoil shield, before recoil from the bullet moving begins to force the revolver to the rear. | |||
|
| Moderator |
I meant to type hammer being held forward by spring tension and not trigger. My apologies for goobering that one. Makes a bit of difference. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Go back and watch the video I posted. It shows hammer bounce. That wasn't the best video, but the best I could find on Youtube right now. I watched another video showing the hammer coming all the way back to full cock - but I can't find it now. Well, at least have an OK day  | |||
|
One of Us |
DAMN, I can't keep all with all the copying and pasting here, but I do want to address Hitman. What you describe is a physical impossiblity to the nth degree. Keeping the trigger depressed won't work on the Smith. The trigger has to reset in order for the pawl advance AND the cylinder lockout to turn the cylinder. Aside from the "hammer slam" you're theorizing, you'd have to bypass both the hammer lockout, the pawl advance and the cylinder lockout AT THE SAME TIME for what you describe. I remember this "conspiracy theory" being used some time back on the Remington 700 rifle action and the claims that when locking the bolt down fired the gun. Supposedly 60 Minutes had "hundreds of cases documented" but when it came time to put up or shutup, it all went away. If Smith had a problem with this issue in these politically correct charged times, there's simply NO WAY it would have been ignored only for someone on the Accurate Reloading site to have discovered. Now you guys fight nice. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
|
| Moderator |
But if it (the cylinder) is rotating backwords, it is not being advanced by the pawl. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
|
| One of Us |
I noticed in the video this was said, "I think you went twice", "I think I did too" and "I have fast reflexes, sorry". I'm willing to give her at least some credit in knowing or at least thinking what she knew and felt. And what I'm hearing sounds like she thinks she pulled the trigger twice. It's not impossible. Improbable maybe. But not impossible. I'm willing to give her even more credit for not dropping it. Many others would. And no, I would never hand that particular piece or any hard kicker to a kid or whatever to test out. I count about four things that can happen and three of them are bad. I've looked at lots of these shooting vids on youtube on guns with substantial recoil. Typically out of curiousity to get a better idea what the recoil might be. You know, 460 WM, 600 NE et al. And in way too many videos it's done prank like with lots of yucking it up afterwards. At best, mindless nonsense. At worst, someone gets seriously hurt and makes our whole community look awful. Oh, btw, somebody above mentioned cap n' ball chain fires. That failing is real common. Everyone who's done BP has heard about it. But, it's not just sealing the chambers. It's also caused from cap to cap ignition. A real bummer either way. Makes me wonder how they ever managed to fight a war with those things... | |||
|
One of Us |
recoil is not the only dymanic ivolved when a high pressure cartridge is fired as this video clearly demonstrates http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5pVya7eask _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| Moderator |
It is my understanding that hi-speed photography shows tremendous flex in the x-frames when fired. I have not viewed any of these videos yet and will try and find some. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
|
| One of Us |
| |||
|
| One of Us |
the only way i've ever been able to reproduce this double tap with my 500 is to limp wrist the gun, then when it recoils with a light hold the gun jumps a bit and starts to come out of the hand, when the shooter tries to not let go of the gun and the grip on the pistol is tightened the trigger finger pulls the trigger again. not sure if this is what happens in the video but it's the best i've done when trying to duplicate it when the problem was first identified. when you slow the video down, you can see the first shot is taken the gun recoils to a vertical position then the second shot goes off with the gun's axis rotated totally to her left and it appears she may be subconsiously trying to regrip the revolver to keep it from getting out of her hand. | |||
|
| Moderator |
I saw the finger come back on the trigger a second time, but did not see the cylinder rotate for a second shot. Look at the related video showing the increase in barrel cylinder gap at the shot. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
|
| One of Us |
The trigger didn't move far enough to reset. I wish it wasn't so dark so you could see the hammer and how much it bounced. | |||
|
| One of Us |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?N...screen&v=HXfg5o1ZVq4 Here is another 500 double at 25 seconds, plus a lot of other stupidity. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Handgun Hunting double tap with a 500 sw -- NOTICE THIS IS AN A.D.
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia