Cuz deer aren't that hard to kill. I only shoot a couple of deer a year, but I kill a lot of hogs during the year and the bigger calibers just put a bigger hurt on them. Nothing wrong with the .44, there's just more right with the .475 on up. It will definitely get the job done -- I know it will as I have used the .44 quite extensively. It's just that the bigger calibers offer more of everything across the board (including recoil!). That said, I am not a big fan of the really fast stepping big cartridges like the .454, .460, etc. I don't think you need all of that speed.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:
Sounds like a good guy...especially the 44 BH part of it!!!

I guess I just dont see a need for anything else but the 44 mag, and I just dont see how, under field conditions that a larger caliber could make all that big a difference...especially in a handgun....a hole is a hole, and a few thousanths bigger hole does not compute into massive gains in killing power. The 41 mag is a fine choice (they have 270 and 300 grains bullets for them now....Beartooth), and I doubt that the 475 would be needed for back up if you had one.

Actually, there is quite a bit of difference. The .500 Linebaugh is on the left in both photos, while the .429 magnum is on the right......

Not only looks like a significant gain, it is a significant gain

JWP; That is an unfair comparison for many reasons. 1. How many shoot the 500 Linebaugh...not many....compared to the 44 mag. 2. You use a Keith in the 44 mag, and a wide meplat in the 500... put a wide meplat in the 44 mag, and the "visual" would not be as stunning. 3. Comparing the 44 mag to the 500 is like comparing a 357 to a 44 mag. Lets compare the 45 and the 44 and the difference is negligable...apples to apples....or, how about the 44, 45, 475...that would be a bit more reasonable, but, even the 475 has only a .046 difference in diameter....023 per side...again, a negligable difference in field application. Lets just compare the 500 Linebaugh to a 22 lr and be done with it. Yes its big, and yes it shoots a heavy bullet, but, I will bet that the trajectory (which is important in the field) suffers compared to a 44 mag. I will take the "little" one with the flat trajectory anyday. Well, I am hitting the sack....I "think" my sickness is gone, and tomorrow I am taking my 44 mag peashooter after deer. If I see one it will be mine...why, because I am using the hard hitting, flat shooting, legendary.... 44 Magnum!!!

yeah, that's what a 200 gr keith bullet. use a 300+ grain large meplat 44 mag round and it's not near that different. use a small hornady xtp round 240 grains and it looks really small. actually the difference b/w a 357 and 44 is much bigger than the difference b/w a .429 and a .500 linebaugh, now i'm just waiting for someone to tell me the .500 linebaugh is superior to the .500 smith b/c it's diameter advantage, and jwp, the biggest reason there's not a valid comparo to the .357 and .44 and then the .44 and the .500 linebaugh is b/c it's starts getting irrelevant once the bullet is big enough to get the job done and the energy/momentum is enough extra is immaterial. can a .357 penetrate and elk adequately.......from any angle. no. can a .44 mag yes............and exit any angle with the right load. will it do it with expandables like a 454 or a 460, no. will it do it with a 500gr bullet at 1100 fps.......no.. but with the right load a .44 will kill any elk at any angle. once a caliber has killed an elephant and the big 5 several times over............you may love the bigger caliber, you may want the bigger caliber, but you don't need it.

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:
JWP; That is an unfair comparison for many reasons. 1. How many shoot the 500 Linebaugh...not many....compared to the 44 mag. 2. You use a Keith in the 44 mag, and a wide meplat in the 500... put a wide meplat in the 44 mag, and the "visual" would not be as stunning. 3. Comparing the 44 mag to the 500 is like comparing a 357 to a 44 mag. Lets compare the 45 and the 44 and the difference is negligable...apples to apples....or, how about the 44, 45, 475...that would be a bit more reasonable, but, even the 475 has only a .046 difference in diameter....023 per side...again, a negligable difference in field application. Lets just compare the 500 Linebaugh to a 22 lr and be done with it. Yes its big, and yes it shoots a heavy bullet, but, I will bet that the trajectory (which is important in the field) suffers compared to a 44 mag. I will take the "little" one with the flat trajectory anyday. Well, I am hitting the sack....I "think" my sickness is gone, and tomorrow I am taking my 44 mag peashooter after deer. If I see one it will be mine...why, because I am using the hard hitting, flat shooting, legendary.... 44 Magnum!!!

Yo are dead wrong about the difference id diameter being minor. It is easy to look at the wound channel and to se the difference between one shot with a LFN 45 and a LFN 44. The difference is even more stark when comapring the 44 to the bigger 475 and 500's.

I've seen too many to buy the few thousands difference in diameter makes no difference arguement

When they first shot an elephant with a 44, you are talking emptying the cylinder,m and reloading.
With the 475 you get complete penetration of the skull. Four feet of penitration and into the neck.

One man killed an elephant with a 22 by accident and then backed it up years later.

And ol John Buhmiller had a Cape Buffalo land in his lap with 18 rounds of 375+ caliber in the Capes neck.
Proper caliber properly placed.
Just different insurance policys with greater caliber, weight and velocity.

Here you go, you whiners: .500 Linebaugh on the left and a .429 magnum on the right sporting a 320 grain WFN -- with a full 80% meplat. Still underwhelming next to the .500 Linebaugh. The difference would be even more dramatic if the .500 Linebaugh bullet was also a WFN -- this one is under 80%.





Oh, and the semi wadcutter is 240 grains.......

Whit;

Which is the 44 and which is the 500?

quote:

Originally posted by 257x50:
Whit;

Which is the 44 and which is the 500?

Haha! The one in the shadows is the .429.

I've got the alarm set for 3:15 in the a.m. and in few hours will be on the trail of the main ingredient of venison stew.

But after reading about 500s and 475s and 460s and 454s, I now just hope I'll be OK with a mere .41 Remington Magnum.

Sleep may be hard to come by...

Whit; Well, its 2:30am in the morning...heading out for some deer hunting. I see your photo that you posted (but, not very well because I am still half asleep), but, I think that is a 44 magnum sitting next to a 357 magnum. Email sent!!!

JWP; If you keep bringing up all these facts, you may make a believer out of me yet.

257X50; So, it seems that the 22lr is the cartridge of choice for large game!!!!

Shack; Good luck out there....hopefully both of us will have a successful day! I am sure that if either of us see a deer that our "mere" 41 and 44 will get the job done!

Flattop;
You need to reread my post. Overgunned, CAN be a belt/suspenders thing.
22 for big game? NOT!!!!
The elephant was killed when a hunter used a 22 to "tickle" an elephant to move to get a better shot on another elephant.
Bullet went in the "armpit" where the skin was thin and hit the heart. Surprised the heck out of him to have the wrong dead elephant on the ground.
Years later he was talking to the goveneur of the area who said it was impossible. "Give me a permit." The goveneur did and the man backed it up.
22 for big game was not my point, it was that things CAN happen, but may not be the best idea.
A C-47 in WWII is credited with a Japanese Zero kill. But not a good idea to try and back up.
A friend came to the shop one day and said he wounded a deer and could I help him find it. I grabbed a rifle, a 375 H and H and headed out. He wondered why" that thing."
I had been shooting it a lot lately, knew it well, had a nice 1 1/4 power Weaver on it, and I said not to worry, it could kill his deer. :-)
Shooting with a 500 is not hunting with a 500. Hunting woodchucks with a 500 is to get better to hunt other things with.
People hunt with different guns for different reasons.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
I've got the alarm set for 3:15 in the a.m. and in few hours will be on the trail of the main ingredient of venison stew.

But after reading about 500s and 475s and 460s and 454s, I now just hope I'll be OK with a mere .41 Remington Magnum.

Sleep may be hard to come by...

Shack, I hope you have a deer on the ground!

.41 is a great round in my opinion!

Again, the big guns aren't necessary for deer as they aren't that hard to kill. But I don't hunt just deer.......

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:
Whit; Well, its 2:30am in the morning...heading out for some deer hunting. I see your photo that you posted (but, not very well because I am still half asleep), but, I think that is a 44 magnum sitting next to a 357 magnum. Email sent!!!

JWP; If you keep bringing up all these facts, you may make a believer out of me yet.

257X50; So, it seems that the 22lr is the cartridge of choice for large game!!!!

Shack; Good luck out there....hopefully both of us will have a successful day! I am sure that if either of us see a deer that our "mere" 41 and 44 will get the job done!

Flat top, I hope you have one on the ground as well! I went out yesterday afternoon and was unsuccessful (still have a buck tag I would like to fill!). But it was cold!

Whit; I went out Sunday, to the place where we always hunt....and, there were signs posted that said "this area closed for the antlerless deer season"!!!!! Boy was I P.O.d!!!So, My hunting buddy and I decided on one of our optional place's to hunt. By the time we got there, the sun was peeking up over the horizon (too late for me), but we went in anyway. I was still hunting into the woods in a place that I knew I could bag a deer (if I got on my stand while dark), and darned if I dont see a white flag bouncing off through the woods!!! There was no shot to be taken! So, I settled in for about a half hour, and started still hunting again with the wind in my face towards the last point where I had seen the "flag". I was moving very slowly and cautiously...stopping for 10 to 15 minutes, every three or four steps...and trying to pinpoint that deer. I finally settled in on a spot where I sat down to take a break. About a half hour of eye strain, produced a light tan, horizontal shape moving very slowly through the thick stuff at the top of an opposing ridge line....about 60 yards away....still, no shot! After a few minutes, I got up up and continued that wild goose chase till around 11 am.....the deer had crossed a major road, and went on to private property!...............so, not to make the day a total loss, I went to the gun range and patterned my full metal 44 mag shotshells that I make, and tested some light loads out in my 4" Redhawk. At least my testing turned out well. The season ends this coming Sunday, and I will be down on the river, hunting Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. I may not have my deer yet, but, I am enjoying my time in the woods...and have found some excellent squirrel hunting spots...which of course I will utilize after deer season is over.

On my hunt I got only marginally closer to banging something with the .41. And I had my mess ups too. I wanted to hunt a new stand I placed 120 yds back in the woods. It's a good looking spot. Only thing is, everything looks completely different by lantern light as in daylight. And since it was the first time there, of course I managed to go in off angle and wasted 30 minutes trying to find the darn thing. And here I made such a big deal out of camo painting it to try and make the stand "disappear". Maybe too good a job.

So I hiked about a mile to another stand overlooking a cornfield that I could find easier. What I forgot was the day of rain we had. The stand looked more like it was in a duck club. Six inches of water to wade thru and no waders. So we're already on a roll when I climb up there. Wet and freezing is a great combo.

Saw nothing and was thinking of climbing down, and then at 9:10 I looked in the field and not 35 yds away was a deer. No idea where it came from. Appeared almost magically. A spike. Long spikes actually. I took my shooting hand glove off, slowly unbuttoned my ancient army jacket and reached in and unfastened the safety strap on the Bianchi X-15 shoulder holster and felt the smooth ebony Eagle grips on the big nickle N frame Smith.

And then a dis-quieting thought occurred. I'm hunting with the club manager today. And it was his idea to put in the "no bucks under 8 pts rule".

And now, the blasted deer doesn't make this any easier by feeding slowly straight to me. It stops at the field's edge about 20 paces away. I draw the magnum, prop my left elbow on left knee and say to myself, I think I'll see what the sight picture looks like. You know, see if I could make the shot if I really had to. I'll see how that red front sight does in this light (not very good I might add - white would have been MUCH better). I almost drew back the hammer just to test the feel. And, I have to admit. For a moment I contemplated giving him a pierced ear, just for my own amusement.

But, I think you know what really winds up happening.

Oh, later on that day I see that the guy who runs the place has shot a buttonbuck. One that should have easily been ID'd thru a scope. But it's OK with the rules because it's an antlerless.

Anyway, sometimes I wonder, why I've done this as long as I have...and why I didn't make enough money when I was young to buy my own place...

Flattop and Shack;
Thank you for the time and the story.
Stuck inside today and those hunts read like Robert Raurk. He would have enjoyed them.
If we ever meet, I'll buy the first round.

Shack; It has been a dismal season here...moon cycles, warm temps, etc. The deer are just fianlly starting to move (late rut), and I am going to hit it hard Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. The temps are supposed to be in the low 30's during the day, and three days of overcast and blustery nothern winds should make it a real treat! (not really), but hey, we are "hunters"....tough guys...right?

257X50; I have always pursued life in this manner: "Its all about the journey...not the destination". Just being out gives me more pleasure than actually taking game...building a rifle....working up loads...sighting in....getting all my gear ready....its all part of the journey! Getting the game is like the iceing on the cake, but, the cake is good, even without the iceing. I have had some "banner" hunting seasons...and, I have had some real busts as well, but, they were all good!!!

I've been known also to say "it's all about getting out" or "it's about the companionship with old friends and breathing in the cold, clean country air", but the truth of the matter is, I usually say those kinds of things on days when I don't get anything.

The more accurate statement is, as many decades as I've been doing this, I still deep down love to run up the score when I get the chance..deer and whatever else is on the menu..

Speaking of which, I'm running behind schedule this year and got nuthin' to show for it. I fixed up a few new stands before the season, to take the place of ones the local natives stole. Even camo painted them, using three different shades. Don't look half bad if I say so myself. Cut shooting lanes and trimmed trees. I took a guest opening day and put him in one of those stands. He got three and missed a fourth. Another guest got two. And another fellow doesn't even bother with a stand. Just walks back behind our cabin about 50 yards and finds he's in the midst of one deer after another. He only shot one..a true sportsman.

But, of course it's not always like that. Usually, it's far from a canned hunt. As I've been finding out so far..

Oh, btw, if you've got "blustery northern winds" to fight, some free advice...first, plan to stay out all day, and skip hunting the wind swept fields or exposed cut-over and the like and go deep in the bottoms of the center of the thickest woods and find that wind-sheltered side of a sand erosion bed or creek. Honeysuckle choked thickets and cedar groves are likely prospects too, but hard for one man to hunt; better a sweep with several guys..

Shack; Dont feel bad....I still dont know anyone that has gotten a deer this year.....many are giving up, and the blustery weather for this weekend here, will drive more of them off. Ol' FT is going to be out there (crazy) giving it his all....and I hope to connect. Your advice is sound....but, where I hunt down by the river (which is where I will be), the low spots are all filled with water (not deer), and being river bottom land, it is pretty flat. What I have seen over the years, is that the deer will lie down in the slightest depression in a field (if its dry). They just hunker down there and wait out the conditions. I have jumped deer laying in slight depressions in what looks to be open, tilled fields. You would never even think that they would be out there, and I never even spotted them before they jumped! Four years ago, the conditions were about the same, and out in the middle of this open waste high field was a tree....a single tree. I glassed the area, didnt see anything, but, decided to walk through that mess to the tree just to make sure. I went slow and easy, and stopped often hoping to jump a deer...if a deer was there. About 20 yards from the tree I had just about given up, when a big ol buck came exploding out of a depression about five yards my side of the tree....scared the heck out of me!!! LOL!!! He was off like nobodies business...not a chance of a shot! I stood there composing myself for a moment, and all of the sudden a doe just stands up, dead still, right in front of me! I slowly raised my old 44 mag Blackhawk and let her have it in the shoulder, and when the gun went off three more doe jumped from the same spot and bounded off!!! Five deer holding tight in that one small area.... and, I will bet that if I just would have walked by at a normal pace, they would not have budged! Deer hunting is not always that productive, but, it is always exciting in one form or another. Even when the season is a bust, I always learn or see something new....something I can use the next season. By the way, that tree is still there, and I am damn well going to check it....this time I will be a bit more on my toes....I learned from the first experience!!!

It's always just when you've given up mentally, that something happens. So I tell myself to never let defeatism settle in on a hunt, because then the mind wanders. You have to guard against that or it'll be a missed shot for sure.

On deer and water, when duck hunting in knee deep water in flooded woods, I've jumped deer. Don't know why they were there, but they were. Once, a doe stood silently, but hidden in thick stuff, just a few feet away for a long time while I threw out decoys, called and shot ducks. Then she bolted with a big loud splash. A bit startling to say the least.

Btw, on your herd of deer - you done flushed a whole covey that time...

I feel guilty. Finding deer for me has not been ANY problem. I live in the middle of an orchard. Well on two sides. 30 feet away and 100 yards on a hill side . Meadow in front of the 2nd story porch. That borders the woods on the forth side.

Its a mile up a hill on a dirt road. The orchard produced till 2 years ago.
In the morning I stand on the porch, I pee with one hand, drink coffee with the other and count the deer.

I feel like I am at an AA meeting . Hello, my name is Rob and I can find deer any time, no problem........and I can't help myself........

If I grab a couple of beers and sit in a treestand during the year to count deer, 50 is not an unusual number.
I just love being away and into the woods. Grew up in up state New York. Woods at the back door.

To "hunt" I have to fire a warning shot........
And no tricker treaters!!!!!!!!

It hasn't been a good season here either. Didn't get to punch my buck tag, although I did get a nice doe.

But that's hunting......

Shack....funny...a "covey" of deer!!! I know what you mean about letting your gaurd down....and, it only happens in an instant, and BAM there are all the deer you could ever hope to shoot...and your not ready!!! I am most always upbeat and wired to react, but it only takes a split second of inattention to destroy an entire hunt. Because I am a mere mortal, my inattention has destroyed some excellent opportunities.

257X50; We need to get you out of that "comfort zone" that you hunt in and get you out and suffering with the rest of us!!!!

Whit; My wifey told me this morning that it is "supposed" to snow today!!! I just love following deer in the snow...I know where they have been, and where they are going, and just like hunting rabbits in the snow, they somehow disappear at tracks end never to be seen! Sorry to hear you didnt get your buck....I have three days left for antlerless season...highs in the low thirties, and that chance of snow, should improve the odds, but, hunting being what it is............With the blustery conditions that are forecasted the deer are going to be laying low for most of the day. I may catch them moving early or late, but I have a suspicion, unless I am extremely lucky (which I never am), that I am going to be doing a lot of walking!!!

Flattop;
I get a LOT of "Second Hand Hunting". People who knock on my door to help them find their wounded deer. Having been all over the orchards for years, I know most of the nooks and crannys.
I keep extra flashlights by the door, then I don't have to look for the hunter too! :-)
I just love getting out. Day or night, rain or shine.
I usually get a quarter and don't have to gut it.

257X50; If those hunters would use the 44 mag, they wouldnt be losing those deer!!!

It is good of you to help them out, and be able to get out.....and a quarter of tasty deer meat is worth the effort! Maybe thats what I should do...instead of hunting, I should just hang out a sign at the hunting areas..."Track your Deer...25 bucks or a Quarter"....COD/QOD.

Flattop;
And some would want to pay you a quarter(25 cents)!
The reason for the 257x50 was a light fast qrarterbore to carry when tracking. A 222(43mm) necked up to 257 has more poop at 100 yards than a 30-30.
Add 7mm of length to that round and I really start to like it. But 257 bullets be addin' LENGHT to the round too.
A small bolt action like the CZ in 223 would be okay for a single shot. The right action may have to be made, altered, welded together.
I have a Martini Cadet action that I HOPE will fit the rimmed version.
But a I have a couple of 44s now so everything else is a moot point.
When the weather is really BAD a SS Bisley is nice to carry looking for wounded game at night.

Flattop;
If I may ask. What section of the country do you hail from?

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:
257X50; If those hunters would use the 44 mag, they wouldnt be losing those deer!!!

It is good of you to help them out, and be able to get out.....and a quarter of tasty deer meat is worth the effort! Maybe thats what I should do...instead of hunting, I should just hang out a sign at the hunting areas..."Track your Deer...25 bucks or a Quarter"....COD/QOD.

That's why they're losing 'em -- they're using the little .429 mag.......

OOOOOHHHHH.......BURN!!!!!!!!
Flack vests on!!!!!!! Incoming flattop comments!!!!!!!

Hunting in the snow? Yeah, that's a special treat. It's just a wonderful time to even be in the woods. That's the only way I know to put it.

And did I hear rabbits? Well, put on hip waders, carry a short barrel cyl bore 20 ga with an .22 H&R 999 "Sportsman" on your hip (my first handgun of them all) and drop back into the bottoms. That's where them fat swamp rabbits abound. In fact, if it's been raining a lot, these little islands form back in there where the swampers are forced to congregate by the high water. You could get 'um with a stick. A gun ain't even needed when it's like that..

Tracking crippled deer? I save the last day of the season for that. I'll tell you a little secret about it (probably not so secret to those here). Deer like to move downhill when wounded to seek shelter. So, we have this sand erosion bed in the deepest lowest lying most secluded part of the woods (many mistakenly call it a creek).

Now, I don't wound deer. I've just plain missed but to my knowledge have never crippled one and so I've never lost one (knock on wood). And I've been hunting since the '60s. But deer sometimes do show up that have been wounded by others on far off properties.

So, the last day I do this sweep of those sand bottoms carrying a Win Model 94 in .30-30 and a magnum (either .41 or .44). I don't bother with the scoped Model 70. The scope would get in the way for this. One time like that I found a 12 pointer that some graduate of Ace School of Marksmanship had managed to shoot the hind end out of.

..well anyway, one thing for sure, we ain't running canned hunts where I am..

..and, the hunting stories we could tell if this weren't the internet..

257X50; Thats right, when you have a 44 everything else is a moot point!!!!

Whit; You are sooooooo wroooooong! From what I have heard, all those PA hunters use is the BIG Bore handguns....not that those are all that bad, but, if shots are taken at over 25 feet the velocity drops off so bad that the bullets bounce off the deer....usually stunning them, and causing them to go into hiding....then, the hunters have to get 257X50 to go out and find the deer. At least he has a 44 to put them out of their misery!!!

I don't live in PA -- problem solved!

If people would compare the cross sectional area of different calibers they would understand the differences in handgun calibers much better, When shooters mentally compare a .44 and .50 cartridge they think of the .50 as being about 12% larger, when actually there is more than twice as much difference, depending on the meplat.

Shack;
To me bustin' bunnies in the snow. is where it is at. Pushin' 60 now an thinking back to my first 20 ga sxs Stevens, walking in the snow after school each day.
Get dark and carry the gun broke open over your shoulder...
Sometimes just sit in the dark and listen to the woods come to life. Then head toward the house light, clean the rabbits, put them in salt water.
Parboil and fry..............

"listening to the woods come alive". Yes, there's something about that part isn't there. Or watching a full moon and shooting stars and your favorite constellations from your stand in the cold pre-dawn darkness. Or hearing geese overhead and straining your eyes trying to see them. Or trying to ID those faint little woods sounds in the darkness on a windless night. Or hearing the distant but growing rumbling, resonating, pulsating sounds of a freight train hi-balling thru the night, and wondering where he's going. And finally seeing the sky start to lighten up in the east. And gradually watching as the night gives up its secrets..

Or, maybe if on a Sunday, hearing faint sounds of church bells from the nearby town as you sit and patiently wait for a shot.

Anyway, I'd like to go rabbit hunting this year, and more deer, and duck, and goose, and quail, and late season dove, and squirrel..but a few here may know how it is when you get old...your opportunities get few, your hunting partners drop out one by one over the years, and your responsibilities at home grow and grow, and time ain't on your side...

Shack;
Your writting just makes memories to flood my mind.
I just saw on the news that the NY thruway is closed and it is still snowing. I want to visit where I grew up there. Snow days meant outside all day.
Fast forward to the mid 80s and I'm a single dad, newly divorced in Southern CA and my 8 year old daughter asks if we are going on vacation. Yes, I said.
We drove to British Columbia canoed and the backpacked into the Kooteney mountains. Camped two weeks and RELAXED. And the lil kid was hooked on the outdoors.
We would go back most years. Cold as the devil at night and shorts during the day. Water off the glacier cools the beer in a heartbeat.
Shack you are a helluva Word Smith and your fault I ramble........what area of the country do you haunt these days.

..where do I haunt?..my own beloved Southland of course....I stay there so I can "haunt and fish"..

Shack;
Between flattop's "COD or QOD" and your "Fish and Haunt", I keep waiting for a drum rim shot"Ba- Dum-Da"................

Be that as it may......I like to know the area of the country folks are from. When I read posts and say someone is hunting hogs, I think of the different landscapes people are hunting in.. Swamp, desert, hills, or if you can hunt them with hounds. We have a huge island in the Susquenna river. Where you can hunt them with spears if you want. Otherwise around PA it is booking a hunt and treestand.
Have a good da) folks.