trademark; That is the most sensible and realistic thing I have heard here so far..."in the field" its the shooter, not the caliber that makes the difference. But, heck, I have to stand up for the ol' 44 mag, cause nobody else will.

Mornin' flattop;

His post was a bit 'tongue in cheek" as he went up and down in caliber.
You could add 41 mag to the post also.
Outside of Africa and Alaska 44 or 45 is a coin toss.
Better add some big stuff in South America and Down Under too.
I went wit the 45 because of the attitude of MOST of the 44 owners, present company excepted. :-)

The 45 people seemed to shoot more. And that was a quarter century or more back.

The best reason to use the 45 instead of a 44 is to rile the 44 people.

Have a good day

FWIW, I bought a SS 44 Bisley Vaquero. I just don't talk about it in polite company.

257X50; Tongue in cheek or not...its a very true statement, and any seasoned handgun hunter knows that. We all have our favorite cartridge and handgun, and, there are minute differences in each, but, does it really make any overwhelming difference in the field...nope...A killing shot is a killing shot, and a miss is a miss...its all pretty simple. Heck, I used the 45 ACP, and 44 Special for a number of years, and they did the same thing as my 44 mags...killed deer (kind of makes me wonder at times why I ever went to the 44 mag...and, all I really use in my 44 mag for deer is a 1000 fps cast bullet load anyway...does a fine job!). A fella I knew killed large game with a 41 mag...elk, bear...even moose, and when he went into bear territory, he carried the 41 mag for protection. He had a lot of trust in that cartridge, and was good with it. I guess for each of us there is a threshold...how much recoil one can take, and how they can handle a certain caliber...shoot well, etc. For Whit its as big as they get...for me its the 44 mag. I have absolutely nothing against the 45LC...its a great cartridge. Would I be any better off trading in all my 44 mag stuff for the 45...I dont think so. I just try to be "realistic" in my expectations of what I am capable of and what the 44 mag is capable of, and I have no doubt (because its be done) that the 44 mag with the right load will take any game animal that walks the earth. Congrats on your new Bisley in 44 mag! Now you own a real "hangun Hunters Handgun"!!!

Flattop;

The truth is just common sense.

But like Will Rogers said:
"Common sense ain't so common"

44/45 is like Ford/Chevy.

Really more like Ford/Merc................

With the 44 there is less chance of mixing loads when I use 44 Special. Lets new folks realize it ain't as bad as you think.

I have never felt unarmed with a 44 for sure.

257X50; I know, I know....I just like stirring it up for the "big bore" shooters! You know, many years ago as a very young man I used to read Field and Stream Magazine, and Outdoor Life religiously. They had an article in one of them about these two guys who hunted grizzly with a 22 lr revolver....had pictures of those two fella's and some of the bears they shot. The marvel of it all was, that they took those big bears with a single shot...each and every time....and, to top it all off, neither was ever hurt doing so. Just goes to show, its not the size of the bullet, but, where you put it that counts...

quote:

Just goes to show, its not the size of the bullet, but, where you put it that counts...

That's why I want mine to be BIG

quote:

they took those big bears with a single shot...each and every time

OK, I'll bite..how did they do that??

I mean I've read Bell's Wanderings Of An Elephant Hunter and know he killed some enormous number with brainshots with a 7 mm Mauser. But, a grizz with a .22, especially numerous ones...from what range and what point of aim and could you reasonably expect penetration of the skull every time and how far did they run. Just curious..

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Hawaiian_Hunter:
I have been perfectly content for several years with my Taurus M44 stainless 44 magnum with 6.5" factory ported barrel. What I would like is 5 shot 41 magnum built on a S&W L-frame with 5" barrel which would be a fine balance of weight and power for my needs. I friend owns a Standard blue Redhawk in 500 Linebaugh which also has great appeal but for overseas trips.

Just don't try a properly loaded 45 and you will always be pleased with the .429 magnum

I've done better, and shot a friend's new 454 Casull, made more noise but I'm sure would not drop any of the game I've shot with 44 mag any quicker. No rush to "upgrade" from what has worked for me the past 35 years.

Shack I'll do you one better.I seen an inuit video once of them going to the dens with a candle and feeling for the bears heart while it was hybernating and stabbing it.I ain't that crazy.

Shack; I probably read that over 50 years ago...and, having senior moments all the time, I am supposed to remember every detail! "What I can remember" is that they somehow baited the bear to bring it up close (one of the guys would bait the bear by antagonizing it), and the other would shoot it at close range....I dont remember exactly where the shot was placed, but, it was a brain shot. Evidently they knew just the right spot to put that bullet so it would make it to the brain. Also, within the last few years, I read that an Alaskan housewife killed a grizzly bear with a 22lr rifle...one shot...protecting her kids, or some such story. I had a buddy that was a "cattle knocker" at a packing plant here, and he used a small shell with a plastic 22lr bullet to kill the cattle for the slaughter. With all the cattle in a huge pen, he would place the stick with the charge in the end up to the steers head and pull the trigger, and they would drop. Again, its not the size of the bullet... but where you put it that counts!

Hawaiian Hunter: Like you, I have used the 44 mag for a long time (probably over 40 years), and I, like you see no need to change. If it aint broke...why try to fix it?

quote:

've done better, and shot a friend's new 454 Casull, made more noise but I'm sure would not drop any of the game I've shot with 44 mag any quicker. No rush to "upgrade" from what has worked for me the past 35 years.

If you are talking about Deer sized game, then I see your point. But if we are talking about LARGE game then the 454 is a definate step up the food cahin ladder in wound channel sixe and the visual effects of the bullet hitting the animal

Larry Keely took a lot of game around the world with a 44 mag, but affer firing 6 shots with (little effect) into a big Alaskan Broenie that got in the cabin with him, Larry moved up to a 454. Larry stop a charging Lion with 1 shot from the 454 in dramatic fashion

The 454 is a definate step up and the 475's and 500's are an even bigger step up over the 454's than the 454 is over the 429 mag

Try them on a large bull Bison, you can and will see the difference with shots into the chest cavity. At least I have and so have others.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

've done better, and shot a friend's new 454 Casull, made more noise but I'm sure would not drop any of the game I've shot with 44 mag any quicker. No rush to "upgrade" from what has worked for me the past 35 years.

If you are talking about Deer sized game, then I see your point. But if we are talking about LARGE game then the 454 is a definate step up the food cahin ladder in wound channel sixe and the visual effects of the bullet hitting the animal

Larry Keely took a lot of game around the world with a 44 mag, but affer firing 6 shots with (little effect) into a big Alaskan Broenie that got in the cabin with him, Larry moved up to a 454. Larry stop a charging Lion with 1 shot from the 454 in dramatic fashion

The 454 is a definate step up and the 475's and 500's are an even bigger step up over the 454's than the 454 is over the 429 mag

Try them on a large bull Bison, you can and will see the difference with shots into the chest cavity. At least I have and so have others.

+ 1 -- I agree completely. Some guys really like their .429s and can shoot them well. Placement is still the most important, but that said, I like the damage my big bullets do (placed properly) over little ones -- period. The recoil isn't for everyone, I acknowledge that.

I never see why a .22 is compared to the larger calibers. The .22 has good penetration and if place right will kill a lot of animals shot in the brain. But I read about people shot in the head and surviving, even bullets running around the inside of the skull with no brain damage. I had a neighbor that was shot through the brain in the war and lived and that was no .22! He was a little off the rest of his life but managed.
I can't compare a human to an animal because the animal brain is smaller and devoted to body function more so any disruption means a quicker death.
I have taken too many deer in PA with healed in .22 bullets on the chest wall to ever think about using one anywhere except the brain shot.
As I have said many times, there are not many calibers worth a darn between the .22 and .41 and up. I would prefer a .22 before any .32 or .38. I don't even like the .357 unless the exact right bullet is chosen for the task. Yes, even the .40 and .45 ACP needs the proper bullet.
Give me a large caliber from the .44 up any day, I am not going to brain shoot a charging bear with a .22 and even trying to head shoot any deer with any gun is just silly.
I have seen too many squirrels get away shot with a .22 hollow point.
At some point, common sense should take over. I never heard of an outfitter in Africa or Alaska toting a .22 to back up a hunter.

I am NOT saying that the 22lr is up to the job, but, I am saying that it has been done with the 22lr. BFR you are correct, there are some pretty useless cartridges out there, but, I dont consider the 44 mag to be one of them.

....and yes, the big bore's are a step up from the 41 and 44 mags, but, too much large game has been taken with 41 and 44 to discount them as being ill suited for the task. I find that "for me" the 44 mag is pefect...I could ask for no more, and would not feel undergunned regardless of the situation. There are many variables when using a handgun in a life or death scenario, or, for that matter when hunting, and beyond the cartridge, all those issues come into play. The cartridge cannot overcome high blood pressure, anxiety, stress, and mental confusion when the shooter is confronted with a situation that he is unacustomed to. That is what made Selius, Bell, Taylor, and all the rest so good at what they did. For them facing dangerous game was a daily occurance...just part of the job.....they were much more relaxed, I am sure, than any of us would be in the same situation. In a small way, the cartridge plays a part in what we are talking about here, but, the biggest equation in all of this is YOU, and how YOU react. Outside of what I have experienced in life, I dont know how I would act being attacked by a large bear...because I never have been. I dont get "buck fever" when hunting or shooting game, but, that does not mean that I wont go to pieces if confronted by an animal that is bound and determined to eat me! Whatever you shoot will be absolutely no good to you if you cant maintain your

With one of these coming in on you while working a Moose kill, make mine at least a 454





And preferable a 475 or 500 JRH, or Linebaugh

...make mine a 12 gauge with James Gates Dixie Terminators!!!

Seeing as you have been there and done that, and knowing that we are all different, what went through your mind...how did you feel physically, etc. Relay that info to us from a personal point of view...disregarding the cartridge/handgun thing.........by the way, isnt that a Freedom Arms...a very fine handgun!

You know, I shoot these bigger handguns as well and as comfortably as some people do the smaller bore revolvers. In this case, why not use the bigger hammer? If your ability to place the shot is the same, you cannot argue that the bigger bullet doesn't do more damage.

Whit; Some folks are blessed to be able to do that...I am not, and the older I get, the more I appreciate the lower recoil of the 44 mag. The important thing here is that we can both hit what we shoot at, and have a good comfort level with the guns that we shoot. I shot a 357 mag "once" and that damn thing hurt! I would not feel comfortable about having to use one. Then I shot the 44 mag, and it felt good....I have shot them since. We both just have different comfort zones, I guess. One thing I do like about the 44 mag is the availability of good bullets, molds, cases, and factory ammunition. If I ever am lucky enough to get my "big bear with a slingshot " hunt up in Alaska, and for some reason I need ammuntion, I know that I can run down to the local trading post and buy some...not so likely with a 524 Super Boomer. More power to you guys that shoot the big ones!!!.................By the way, to everybody on this forum...I hope you all have a great Thanksgiving Holiday!!!!

I've been enjoying reading everyone's comments and here's how I feel about the bear thing. If forced to choose, I do believe I'd like my chances better doing the Indian trick with stabbing one in its cave while it's asleep hybernating, over the deal where your buddy goes to the bear and jabs a stick in its butt, then the bear chases him to you, and your buddy says "look out, here it comes" and you do a quick one shot kill with a .22 bullet perfectly placed in the charging bear's head...

Shack; I agree with you 100% !!!..............by the way, getting back to my "topic"... Some of your ideas have changed my mind on a few things, and others have given me some new ideas that I never had thought of. I think I have a pretty good idea of where I want to go with this, so, with hack saw and ball peen in hand, I am just about ready to start. The barrel lenght is still an issue (3" or 4") and I might just go ahead and make all the other mods first and save that issue until after I have a chance to to shoot the gun with the 4" er...see how I like it, etc.

The biggest game we have here are wild boar some of the bigger boys pushing the 500 mark. My biggest was pushing 400 but nothing one well placed shot from my 44 mag couldn't take care of.
We also have wild cattle in the forests of the "Big Island" of Hawai'i which average about 1000 pounds. I'm planning a hunt for one of these beasties in the near future but I have a 45/70 barreled Enfield for this job though I wouldn't feel undergunned using one of my 44 mags loaded with 300 grain hardcast loads. If I ever head to Alaska for some salmon fishing I have a short barreled 12 gauge and some 1-3/8 oz. 3" Brenneke slugs to go along as bear medicine. My friend bought his 454 Casull Raging Bull a few years back for his Alaska trip as bear medicine but his scariest moment was a large cow moose come crashing through the bushes along shore. He never did get to shoot it in Alaska.
No doubt the 454 is bigger medicine but just not needed here in the Islands, a .41 mag more than adequate, and even a .357 loaded with 180 grain JSPs getting the job done in most cases
(love my .357 Blackhawk too).
A 5 shot .41 mag in a L-frame with 4.5" barrel (legal minimum barrel length here) would be perfect.

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:
...make mine a 12 gauge with James Gates Dixie Terminators!!!

Seeing as you have been there and done that, and knowing that we are all different, what went through your mind...how did you feel physically, etc. Relay that info to us from a personal point of view...disregarding the cartridge/handgun thing.........by the way, isnt that a Freedom Arms...a very fine handgun!

The dixie Slugs are AWESOME, but alas they take a shotgun to use them much bigger than a "packable" hand gun

The handgun in the picture is a Ruger Bisley converted to 475 by Hamilton Bowen. It sports a Metaloy Finnish and thus looks like stainless, but is actualy a blued steel gun.

I shot the Moose on left in the picture with the 475 one shot through the should was all that was needed.

We had seen a lot of bears in the area, very unusual in the artic. I was chopping the antelar out of the Moose skul and my hunting partner was standing guard with his 338 win. Suddenly jimmy says Oh My God Here He Comes. With my rifle out of reach I imediately pulled the 475 from its shoulder holster and aim over one knee. Jimmy fired and the bear went down and got up IMMEDIATELY as if he were spring loaded. With the reaction from the hit of the 250 Partition when the bear sprang back up the shot presentation was a hard angle ranking shot.

The first thought I had was this is not a good place to shoot one. Immediately the next thought was "any place is better than no place" so I toughed the revolver off and the effects were dramatic and immediate. The bullet hit at the very back of the rib cage in a direct line to the off shoulder. All 4 feeet went straight out (spread eagle style) and that was that. That immediate and decissive reation from the big 475 impressed me then and every time that I have taken a Large animal with it since.

A lot of gun in a small package

that's an exciting hunt there jwp, i've noticed shooting the big bores that i've had some dramatic kills, some not so dramatic and the highest end .44 mag rounds don't differ much from the other big bores imhe. i don't noticed a lick of difference b/w the others at all. the only thing i notice a big big difference on is the trajectory difference of the .454 and .460 versus others, buuuut.............i've noticed a diff if expandables are used that can handle the speed of a 454 460 etc. every barnes load i've hit an animal with just crushed it like the hammer of thor. that said, with hardcasts i have never noticed a difference. for me it was always .44 mag until i started reloading and i love my 454 loads that are about 20% hotter than the top end 44 mag loads, comfortable and very very effective.



jwp, can you speak more about that lion charge. that sounds exciting as well.

I've noticed a hell of a difference between a .44 and a .475 on large game. To not be able to tell the difference with shots in the chest cavity is baffling to me, as it is plain as the difference between daylight and dark. Shoot a few mature bull bison with both and IME the difference is stark.

JWP ; your hunting story had me on pins and needles....you are very cool under fire....you are my new hunting hero!!! By the way, that Huntigton Bisley is nice! Have a great Thanksgiving!!!

well............i guess we'll just differ, and that's not to say you wouldn't see a difference with some loads, just not the ones we've used. sorry, but 300+ grains over 1300fps is just plenty and .04" of diameter just doesn't matter that much, sure it's bigger but not that much run the bullets enough to go through and it's dead animal time. just like watching hits on cape buff on hunting shows with a SW 500 and what lynn thompson did with a .44. if someone would've overdubbed the voice on handgun hunting downunder and said he was shooting a .500 we'd all be talking about how the bigger gun just hammers buff, instead, around here it's about how you can get by with a small caliber with accurate shooting.

in fact i'll go so far as too say i've noticed more of a difference on hogs b/w 300 grain hardcasts running at 1100fps and those we've loaded up to over 1400fps than i've noticed b/w the hot .44's and some larger calibers.

Trademark; A buddy of mine turned me on to the "fact" that lower velocity loads will penetrate better than same bullet weight high velocity loads. For the past year or so, we have been working with a 405 grain bullet in the 44 mag at 1000+ fps (in my Redhawk 1020 fps with this bullet is ideal in all respects, accuracy, penetration, and ease of shooting), and have found that it penetrates better than some other heavier/lighter bullets at higher velocities in like media. I have come to the conclusion that somewhere between 1000 and 1100 fps in the 44 mag is the ideal velocity for the best in penetration qualities, and as the size of the game increases, all that need be done is increase the bullet weight. I had hunted deer for years with the old 250 Keith at 1000 fps, and it did a fine job at normal handgun ranges...out to 50 yards or so. I am now trying a 325 at 1063 for deer, or hog if need be, and if I so chose to move up to black bear or elk, I would go a bit heavier in weight, but, keep velocities within that parameter. For the largest of NA game...moose, or the big bears, I would use that 405 grain load that I spoke of. Keep in mind, that I am basing this on various penetration "tests" that we have performed and on field experience with deer sized game, so, the idea for use on the "big boys" is only theoretical.....but, its nice to know that you have experienced the same results. One thing I have also noticed with the 1000 fps loads, is that they do not "hit" in a dramatic fashion, but, they DO plow through anything that is in their way.

I took some apples to Louis in MO, about 10 different kinds. He wanted to taste them to see which he liked best. I asked which one. He looked at me strangely and said"Well all of them, if it isn't side by side comparison, you really can't compare."

What am I talking about? Hang with me.
A friend was helping wipe out hogs in Hawaii in the early 90s.
Had used 44s up close, 308 for farther away. Shot dozens of hogs in a day.
He got a 500 from John Linebaugh.
Th said the 44 killed the hogs very well, NO problem ever.
But the 500L, as he said:"just killed them before they had a chance to oink."
He shot hogs up close one after the other.
The 500 just really impressed him.
Sometimes more is better.........
Gary was a heck of a shot.
My $.02

257X50; First off, not everybody from St. Louis wants to taste all the apples .....secondly, if the 44 was no problem, why was there a need for anything more? If I have a gun...the 44 mag, that does everything well, why do I need a gun to do everything more well!?!?!?!?! There must be something wrong with me....I guess I just dont think like most other folks....am I being too realistic...too logical? Does somebody out there have a soft couch and a notepad.......I think I need HELP!!!!

Flattop;
You only need help if you can't think of a reason you want another gun. And that ain't all true.
Gary was curious, wanted to find out.
You would like Louis. Shot a 44 BH and. 45-70 Marlin.
Everyone would come up from Kansas City and he would take them hunting. The guys had every new gun that came along. They would ask louis why he didn't hunt more. Louis said he did enough. The most of the KC guys didn't realize who spent all his time taking care of them.
One time a guy needed air for his tire. "Back of the garage" Louis said.
Guy comes back in with a dazed look on is face. " Where did youi get so many big antlers out in the garage?" The guy studdered.
"Oh, I get to hunt enough" and smiled. Louis KNEW about apples and hunting.
I wasn't saying you NEED a bigger caliber for most things, but it CAN make a difference.
With Gary, it is like the ol girl that ran a house of ....... Well ........very friendly women from a Bob Dylan song:"Your girlfriend just knows what you NEED, but I know what you WANT."
Hell flattop, for the 48 contiguous(spl?), I want a 41 Mag. The 475 is for backup. But then I don't remember the whole title of this thread. And now it may be a double action..........

Sounds like a good guy...especially the 44 BH part of it!!!

I guess I just dont see a need for anything else but the 44 mag, and I just dont see how, under field conditions that a larger caliber could make all that big a difference...especially in a handgun....a hole is a hole, and a few thousanths bigger hole does not compute into massive gains in killing power. The 41 mag is a fine choice (they have 270 and 300 grains bullets for them now....Beartooth), and I doubt that the 475 would be needed for back up if you had one.

Shoot large game (think bigger than deer) and the advantage of the bigger bore revolvers becomes quite clear IME.

Can a 357 kill a big pig? The answer is yes but shot placement angles are more critical than with a 44. Now inlarge the game to Moose, Bison, Elk size and the same applies to the 44. The larger bores are an advantage, pure and simple. Will a 44 work? Yes. Will a 44 be able to penetrate as deep and shoot the same angles as a 475 or 500? the answer is with out a dought, NO

JWP; I dont shoot at angles, around corners, or by using a mirror...shooting over my shoulder! I leave that to the real pros...like you!!! I try to align all my shots square and level with the game I am shooting, and if the game doesnt "work with me" on that, I just shoot them in the head, and be done with it...but, I sure do miss those brains and eggs for breakfast!!!

Flattop;

Stainless 44 Vaquero.. It followed me home!!!!!!!! Honest!!! I did NOT go looking for it. Well maybe a little. Kinda, sorta, in a way.......
IT WAS FREE, that's it. It was free.

That's my story,and I'm sticking too it!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:
Sounds like a good guy...especially the 44 BH part of it!!!

I guess I just dont see a need for anything else but the 44 mag, and I just dont see how, under field conditions that a larger caliber could make all that big a difference...especially in a handgun....a hole is a hole, and a few thousanths bigger hole does not compute into massive gains in killing power. The 41 mag is a fine choice (they have 270 and 300 grains bullets for them now....Beartooth), and I doubt that the 475 would be needed for back up if you had one.

Actually, there is quite a bit of difference. The .500 Linebaugh is on the left in both photos, while the .429 magnum is on the right......

257X50; NO WAY!!!! I am jealous!!! A stainless Vaquero...and in 44 to boot....Sir you have been blessed!!!! Congratulations!!! Photo's....we need photo's!!!!

Whit...Gee, that 44 mag looks like a 22lr (sitting next to a 44 mag)..........An old fella who I used to hunt with for many, many years, shot over 70 deer in his lifetime with a single shot 22 lr... had a photo of every one he shot. So, I really dont feel bad shooting the tiny 44 mag.....besides, whats a few thousanths of an inch anyway?

Quite a bit, my friend!

Whit, then why havent any of the deer I have shot over the years with the 44 mag complained that it was too small?