With my up and coming hunt to Alaska this fall, I plan on packing my S&W 625-9 Mountain Gun in 45 LC as a back up to my rifle, which will be my primary weapon.

I have two loads which are both accurate and powerful. I wanted to get your opionions on the subject.

My EXBAL ballistic program will not give vel/ft lb energy less than 25 yds which is fine w/ me since the revolver will only be used as back -up or as the primary weapon only if the stars are in alighment and the bear presents himself to such a short range shot.

265 gr WFNGC Cast Peformance Bullet @ 1251 fps with an ES of 6 and Sd of 2. 25 yd energy is 838 lbs.

282 gr Keith style SWC, RCBS 45-270-SAA, cast by Mt Baldy Bullets of Cody, WY @ an honest 1010 fps. 25 yd energy is 610 lbs.

The larger bullet is not as consistent at the smaller, 265 grainer.

I know the heavier bullet might penetrate more but the smaller is really romping on the speed and energy by 228 ft lbs.

Thanks,

Big al

Let me first qualify my answer by stating that I have never shot a bear with a handgun. I think that muzzle energy is a poor indicator of cartridge performance and not an accurate comparison tool -- IMHO. The .454 Casull trounces calibers that in my experience are more effective on game by virtue of it's muzzle energy in a variety of loads -- on paper. An example of this is both the .480 and the .475 Linebaugh. I personally would go with a heavy cast flat-point bullet at a moderate velocity that shoots the most accurately in your revolver. I would lean towards something in the 330 grain range as they seem to penetrate very deeply........

I suppose either of the loads you mention are better than nothing in a emergency but I'd go with something 300 grains or heavier even though it will have to be slower. Crank your rear sight all the way to the frame and load some 300 gr LBTs as fast as they'll go and still shoot to the sights at seven yards.

All that said there's much to be said for making your rifle as dead nuts reliable as you can and keeping it in hand or within reach at all times.

Given your stated use of this revolver as a sidearm only, I'd select the 265 WFN load. My bear revolvers are .475 Linebaughs, but I use them as primary hunting arms, not sidearms.

I'd use the lighter 265 gr load. I believe that 17 gr. won't make that much difference in penetration but the load has lots more velocity and energy of the two. Is it possible for you to get that 282 load a little hotter to match the 265?

Your mountain gun will work fine and your on the right track with the wfn.
I shoot a .375 gr. wfn out of my .45 lc redhawk @ over 1300 and it is right up there with my .454 loads as far as muzzel energy is concerend.

Your mountain gun won't do that but it will give you over 1200 with 340's wfn's. Both of these bullets come from custom molds from smith and can't be bought but cast performance makes a real nice 300 gr. lfn that would work well.

Since your 265 gr load is the most accurate for you so far, just load em up and go hunting. When you get back, I'd suggest that you try a 300 gr load that'll be the most accurate. In my old 625MG(no stupid lock), I've found that OAL is the biggest limiting factor because of the shorter cylinder as compared to other guns out there. It'll hold up under judicious use of "hunting" loads and not stretch the frame.

Well, I've got time to work up a new load. My trip would not be until the end of August. I can start on either a 280 gr WFNGC or a 300 gr WFNGC; both from Beartooth Bullets.

I was not going to post on this thread, but after looking at it 4 or 5 times, I just have to say something.

In my opinion the 45 Colt no matter what you shoot in it is a poor choice for a back up for Grizzly.
That is just my opinion, myself, a 454 Casull, 460 Mag or 500 Mag would be my choice. I know we are talking back up, but I would want something with stopping power.

A good heavy hardcast bullet at moderate velocity is a penetrating fool. I don't buy into the need for a lot of velocity to get it done.

Whitworth...I agree with you. The higher the velocity the more the muzzle jump...and the less likely for a follow up shot or two to the first one.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Whitworth...I agree with you. The higher the velocity the more the muzzle jump...and the less likely for a follow up shot or two to the first one.

I would beg to differ with you, I have a video of my bear hunt when I was using my 500 Mag, 2 shots very quickly and bullets were 2 inches apart. In the right hands, even a gun with heavy recoil can get quick follow up shots.

Whitworth, I am not looking at a lot of velocity, just a bigger bullet and a lot more weight. I want more energy.... We are talking Grizzly/brown bear, not black bear here......

I've been rethinking my position on muzzle energy for some time now. A .500 Smith with easily make 2500 ft-lbs, but even a .30-06 will easily top this, and yet I have seen these big pistol rounds drop game with serious authority, leading me to believe that muzzle energy plays a very small part in the formula for effectiveness. Not trying to start a fight here, just starting some dailogue about this. My Casull makes a lot more muzzle energy than my .480 (back when it was still a .480), but the .480 loaded with heavy hardcasts at moderate velocity (1200 fps over my friend's chronograph) seemed more effective on game -- bigger, heavier bullet, less velocity.

The .475 Linebaugh is a stone-cold killer and it makes a lot less muzzle energy than a .460 Smith, yet I would want the .475 in my hands before the .460 if facing something that bites back.

Again, not trying to stir up the pot.......

Whitworth, you are not stir up the pot as far as I am concerned, I enjoy good conversation.

I think a 575 gr. bullet going 1400 fps is going to penetrate anything in the animal world, try to compare a 460 and 475 is not all that much difference. I have shot some 390 gr. hard cast bullets out of my 460 mag into 40 inches of wet newspaper and the bullets came out the back never to be found.

I still believe energy plays a big factor in killing animals, shot placement is key though.

As far as the 30-06 compared to the 500 Mag, the 500 mag has more TKO than the 30-06. I cannot remember the formula right off hand. I know it has to do with bullet weight, velocity divided by 1000. Something like that.

Gentlemen,

I appreciate you input. I'm going to quote someone I respect immensly concerning this subject.

John Linebaugh:

"I've shot two or three of them (S&W 25-5's) here with the 310gr Keith slug (old NEI mould) and 23.5 gr of H-110 for a full, honest 1,200 fps..(THIS IS A MAXIMUM LOAD). All guns printed this load in the 1-1/2" range at 25 yards off sandbags.

I know for a fact this load will go through elk like cheese at long range. I don't mean to be beating a dead horse but velocity does not buy us power. Instead it buys us trajectory and range. At handgun ranges I'm not sure we need an abundance of either. I load to 1,200 fps for a good all around speed in my sixguns. If I need more power I got to a bigger slug or bigger caliber."

This is one reason I chose the 625-9 Mountain Gun.

I picked up a 45LC Mountain Gun a while back ago but I haven't shot it alot.
I was also wondering what kind of loads it would handle.
I don't shoot HOT loads through my Rugers so I'm thinking they would work in my S&W also.
250gr cast w/20gr H110...haven't taken it over the chrony yet though.
What do y'all think? How much is too much?

quote:

I still believe energy plays a big factor in killing animals, shot placement is key though.

I am not a big believer in the kinetic energy theroy. I am a BIG BELIVER in big long wound channels that transvers the vital organs. I witnessed a Large Longhorn that was shot with a 450 Nitro #2 have virtualy no effect, because the 500 grain round nose solid took a left turn (after entering the on side shoulder) missing the heart and ending up in tthe off side hip. A single round through both shoulders (bullet exited) by the 500 JRH revolver was Very Effective even though the foot pounds of energy was only 1797 FPE compaired to 5374 FPE for the 450 Nitro.

Ammohouse,

John Linebaugh says the 260 gr cast and 23 gr of H110 gives 1000 fps from his Mountain Gun.

23 gr of H110 gave me 1076 average for the 265 gr Cast Performance Bullet from my Mountain Gun.

Years ago when I was a young man, I was flying for the Navy on the Pet 4 naval reserve on the north slope. One bad weather day we where all sitting around talking about our survial weapons we were carrying on our aircraft. One old civilian geologist who had been in Alaska for years, looked at mine which was a 44 magnum. His comment was, " I don't care how powerful it is, its still a pistol so you need to file off the front sight". When I asked him why ? he said "so when the bear shoves it up your a-- it don't hurt you so bad"!!! I think he had a point !

Id go with the heavier swc it will give better pentration then the wfn will. Your dealing with a gun and load that is marginal and id want all the penetration i could get.

I'll just keep doing what I do, it has worked well for me. I will stick with my 500 Mag and 460 Mag.

I don't go for high speeds in my 460 or 500 Mags, but big bullets. I go for accuracy over velocity also.

We all have our theory as to what works. "SHOT PLACEMENT"

This argument will go on forever, energy versus penetration! In my opinion a very heavy, large meplat boolit that goes all the way through an animal has enough energy to do the job. Same if a lot of bone is smashed without stopping the boolit. Paper figures only work on paper and so far I have not seen any animal that reads the figures so it can avoid those that depend on energy.
I have seen many, many explosive results on deer with guns that are too powerful with tons of energy. In almost every case it was from a neighbor asking for help finding the deer. Ask me how a deer can go a mile with no blood trail having a hole blown in it large enough to stick your head in. Poor placement? Yes, but the damage was so severe that if it WAS hit properly, there would be no meat left. One large buck only had the shoulders and head left, the rest was a mess. This man and his family are constantly losing deer because they believe the energy of their guns should kill everything. I told them they should all be using 30-30's, not 7 and 30 mags. Learn to shoot too.
I hunt with very heavy arrows, nothing stops them, not even bone. They kill deer so fast it is hard to believe. Energy? How about 80 foot pounds!
Compare to the modern archer that uses super light arrows at over 300 fps, lots of energy and lots of lost animals because the arrow stops very quick and 3" to 6" of penetration is all they get. A bone hit just stops the arrow.
Just like a .357 on large game. Get penetration and the hole is too small. Get expansion and the bullet stops. This is where you need power, enough velocity to get some expansion and still go all the way through. Trouble is the cartridge is too small and the bullet is too light.
A big fat heavy boolit at 1200 fps will not stop. Step up the velocity and it will disrupt more tissue. But going to a light bullet with much more energy is not the answer--leave the book at home.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:

I hunt with very heavy arrows, nothing stops them, not even bone. They kill deer so fast it is hard to believe. Energy? How about 80 foot pounds!

A big fat heavy boolit at 1200 fps will not stop. Step up the velocity and it will disrupt more tissue. But going to a light bullet with much more energy is not the answer--leave the book at home.

Let's not start comparing energy of arrows to bullets, that is a stupid argument. Two totally different concepts on killing and I will not get into a debate over that.

Like I said many times and still believe it to be true, a big heavy bullet, with enough velocity to penetrate, even big bones are what is needed. The energy that a big bullet transfers has an affect on the damage, do you understand hydraulics?

I believe in energy transfer, I look at it like this, I throw a very small rock at you as hard as I can, and hit you square in the chest. I leave a small mark and may break the skin, but no real damage done, now I throw a big brick at you as fat as I can, and again hit you square in the chest. Now I broke 80 % of your ribs and you have compound fractures and internal injuries. That is energy transfer. But there come a time when to much energy is not going to help, if you pass through an animal and the excess energy it expended in the hill side.

We are talking back up for Grizzly bear here, not hunting with a perfect shot being offered. You need power for stopping a charge. If I was in that situation, I would want the heaviest bullet with the biggest diameter bullet and enough velocity to penetrate head to tail.

But nothing beats using your head and trying to avoid ever putting yourself in that situation. Even the most seasoned hunter does not know how they will react when and if that time ever comes. Just pray you have enough time to use either your primary or secondary gun.

Last month, I was on the phone w/ Frank Ehrenford, owner of Mt Baldy bullets (cast lead bullets). I was discussing this very issue w/ him. I was looking at a 260 gr for general duty/plinking and the 300-310 for the bear issue which lead me to start this discussion. Frank asked if I knew of the RCBS 45-270-SAA. I heard of it in passing but that was it. He went on to tell a story of one of his customers which had happended in the not too distant past (1-2 yrs I believe). This customer had a large Brownie on the ground, the back slaps and hand shakes were complete and it was time to start the skinning process. The bear was on it's back, the customer straddled the bears midsection and poked his knife in to begin the first cutting. The bear moved or breathed or something to cause the customer to believe it was still alive. Customer shucks his sidearm in 45LC (I don't believe Frank mentioned the make/model) and proceeds to put two in in VERY quick succession. The two 45-270-SAA's, which cast about 280-282, both drilled the sternaum, thoracic cavity, backbone and drive down into the gravel bed, never to be found, though they looked.

I realize the width of a Brownie's thoracic cavity is not the length of a Brownie from front to back. Then, on a charging Brownie, I'm not trying to get the bullet from front to back, I'll be tring to get it from front to rear of the thoracic cavity. IMHO, a 280-310 gr 45 LC doing 1200 fps will complete that task.

quote:

Let's not start comparing energy of arrows to bullets, that is a stupid argument. Two totally different concepts on killing and I will not get into a debate over that.

I believe in energy transfer, I look at it like this, I throw a very small rock at you as hard as I can, and hit you square in the chest. I leave a small mark and may break the skin, but no real damage done, now I throw a big brick at you as fat as I can, and again hit you square in the chest. Now I broke 80 % of your ribs and you have compound fractures and internal injuries. That is energy transfer. But there come a time when to much energy is not going to help, if you pass through an animal and the excess energy it expended in the hill side.

Let's see how do arrows kill differently than bullets. Shoot an arrow through the chest cavity and it cuts a hole through and kills by causeing massive bleeding and the animal dies.
A bullet shot through an animals chest creates a hole and massive bleeding occurs and animal dies. Doesn't seem that diffwerent to me.


It would seem that the small rock would have more kinetic energy because of it's speed. The brick is the heavy flat point hard cast slug with less energy.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Let's not start comparing energy of arrows to bullets, that is a stupid argument. Two totally different concepts on killing and I will not get into a debate over that.

I believe in energy transfer, I look at it like this, I throw a very small rock at you as hard as I can, and hit you square in the chest. I leave a small mark and may break the skin, but no real damage done, now I throw a big brick at you as fat as I can, and again hit you square in the chest. Now I broke 80 % of your ribs and you have compound fractures and internal injuries. That is energy transfer. But there come a time when to much energy is not going to help, if you pass through an animal and the excess energy it expended in the hill side.

Let's see how do arrows kill differently than bullets. Shoot an arrow through the chest cavity and it cuts a hole through and kills by causeing massive bleeding and the animal dies.
A bullet shot through an animals chest creates a hole and massive bleeding occurs and animal dies. Doesn't seem that diffwerent to me.


It would seem that the small rock would have more kinetic energy because of it's speed. The brick is the heavy flat point hard cast slug with less energy.

Not even worth my time to respond. You already know everything.........

quote:

Originally posted by GSSP:
John Linebaugh:

"I don't mean to be beating a dead horse but velocity does not buy us power. Instead it buys us trajectory and range. At handgun ranges I'm not sure we need an abundance of either. I load to 1,200 fps for a good all around speed in my sixguns. If I need more power I got to a bigger slug or bigger caliber."

Well and truly said. Be sure to choose a grip that doesn't flex out of the way under recoil and feed the web of your gun to the frame. Dehorn the trigger too. The Mtn Guns can get pretty snippy with the extra serious loads.

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
I believe in energy transfer

If kinetic energy is the killing mechanism why is a 45/70 405 @ 1330 a better choice for bear hunting than a 220 Swift 50 @ 3780? Only four ft. lbs. of KE distinguish them at the muzzle. http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics...x?data=R220S1*R4570G

My point exactly! Get the energy figures out of your head, they mean nothing.
It is really funny how redhawk disagrees with me and then goes on to say what I have been saying all along. Big, heavy and fast. Don't arrows work the same way?
They CAN be compared because the pistol bullet does not work much different then the arrow as far as penetration. Yes, the arrow cuts instead of dumping energy but what does a WFN boolit do that is any different? It makes a big hole that bleeds like crazy instead of blowing up the animal. Strange I can butcher to a revolver boolit hole just like I can to an arrow hole! Yeah, a little more blood shot but no mangled meat. Smashed bones? Same as an arrow. I have over 226 bow kills and an untold amount of revolver, shotgun, muzzle loader and rifle kills. Guess what? They were all dead and the worst butchering I ever did were the rifle kills. I sold the rifles. You can keep energy, I will take big holes and penetration.

what is a boolit??????

That would be the projectile from one of those cheap autos held sideways by them hoodlums from the street gangs in California!

I had a trip planned to Alaska,(it fell thru), and was told to bring the biggest baddest thing I could shoot with accuracy. As for a handgun for backup, I was told by the guide "a griz or brownie will cover 40 yards and kill you with a hole in it's heart", so I never planned on using a handgun on a bear. BUT; I was taking a .454 Casull with a hard cast 310 gr bullet loaded to max velocity for backup anyway, cause what else would I do with a empty rifle besides getting it shoved up ** by a big bear.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
what is a boolit??????

It is a slang term for a cast bullet........

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
My point exactly! Get the energy figures out of your head, they mean nothing.
It is really funny how redhawk disagrees with me and then goes on to say what I have been saying all along. Big, heavy and fast. Don't arrows work the same way?
They CAN be compared because the pistol bullet does not work much different then the arrow as far as penetration. Yes, the arrow cuts instead of dumping energy but what does a WFN boolit do that is any different? It makes a big hole that bleeds like crazy instead of blowing up the animal. Strange I can butcher to a revolver boolit hole just like I can to an arrow hole! Yeah, a little more blood shot but no mangled meat. Smashed bones? Same as an arrow. I have over 226 bow kills and an untold amount of revolver, shotgun, muzzle loader and rifle kills. Guess what? They were all dead and the worst butchering I ever did were the rifle kills. I sold the rifles. You can keep energy, I will take big holes and penetration.

No need for me to try to add to this post, you are the guy that know's it all....
No need for anyone else to post either, bfrshooter is the man...............

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
I believe in energy transfer

If kinetic energy is the killing mechanism why is a 45/70 405 @ 1330 a better choice for bear hunting than a 220 Swift 50 @ 3780? Only four ft. lbs. of KE distinguish them at the muzzle. http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics...x?data=R220S1*R4570G

No where did I try to compare a 50 gr. 220 swift bullet to a 405 gr. bullet.
You are just picking one part of my post.

If you noticed I use BIG BULLETS... To many know it all for me here...



GSSP
If you want to carry a 45 Colt in Grizzly country and you feel good about it, by all means, have a ball.
Just hope you don't have to bet your life on it. Good luck and I hope you get a big one. I am out of here....

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Let's not start comparing energy of arrows to bullets, that is a stupid argument. Two totally different concepts on killing and I will not get into a debate over that.

I believe in energy transfer, I look at it like this, I throw a very small rock at you as hard as I can, and hit you square in the chest. I leave a small mark and may break the skin, but no real damage done, now I throw a big brick at you as fat as I can, and again hit you square in the chest. Now I broke 80 % of your ribs and you have compound fractures and internal injuries. That is energy transfer. But there come a time when to much energy is not going to help, if you pass through an animal and the excess energy it expended in the hill side.

Let's see how do arrows kill differently than bullets. Shoot an arrow through the chest cavity and it cuts a hole through and kills by causeing massive bleeding and the animal dies.
A bullet shot through an animals chest creates a hole and massive bleeding occurs and animal dies. Doesn't seem that diffwerent to me.


It would seem that the small rock would have more kinetic energy because of it's speed. The brick is the heavy flat point hard cast slug with less energy.

Not even worth my time to respond. You already know everything.........

I certainly do not know everything, but luckily my mind is not closed either, if it were then I would still be worshiping at the alter of FOOT POUNDS OF ENERGY. I once believed in FPE as you do, but no longer. If FPE is so deadly then why isn't the Morgue full of Pro Football players after each game. A 240 pound football player tha runs a 10 secound hundred yards is traveling 30 feet per secound (Most are faster than this illistration) and that is the equizelent of 3358 FPE (and this is only counting the speed of one player) yet when he collides with another player no one is killed and ussualy get up and continue to play.

I gave an example (in an earlier post) of an animal that was shot with a 450 Nitro and a 500 grain bullet that had virtually no effect despite the 5374 FPE the bullet carried, yet a bullet of only 1797 FPE was totally lethal, FPE is great on paper and that's it.

Oh yea how many bears have you shot? Properly loaded a 45 Colt is certainly effective. Yes I have shot a few, all Grizzelys no Blacks and lot of Large Bovines such as Moose, Bison, Buffalo Elk and such with a hand gun.

There 2 photos below will illistrate the inability of FPE to proper predit the wounding of a cartridge


Exit in the rib cage of a bull Elk caused by a 300 Winn mag with an impact velocity of 2600 FPS and 2700 FPE





The same Elk this wound was caused by a 440 grain from the 500 JRH at 950 FPS for 888 FPE






I am holding a loaded 300 Win. Mag by both exits for size comparison

I just don't see jacking the speed of a .45 caliber bullet to the moon as making it any more effective, all else being equal (bullet weight, construction, etc.). To be more effective, I think stepping up in diameter and bullet weight makes more sense than just increasing speed and thereby increasing muzzle energy. JMHO........

This doesn't need to be a

Some guys are democrats Whitworth!

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
I just don't see jacking the speed of a .45 caliber bullet to the moon as making it any more effective, all else being equal (bullet weight, construction, etc.). To be more effective, I think stepping up in diameter and bullet weight makes more sense than just increasing speed and thereby increasing muzzle energy. JMHO........

This doesn't need to be a

Whitworth, the only real reason I jack up my speed on a 45 Cal is, mainly for longer distance shooting, I have a bunch of handguns I hunt with, I pick the handgun for the application. If I am shooing longer distances, I go with a S&W 460 Mag, when I am up close and hunting black bear, I go with my 500 Mag, like I said, I like big bullets. I don't shoot any bullets less than 300 gr, in any of my hunting handgun. I shoot 44 Mag, 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 and 500 Mags. And as I stated before many time, I go for accuracy over fps. I guess you guys missed that part.
I think we agree on that one.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Some guys are democrats Whitworth!

You are the homer here.. Nice self portrait you got there.
Democrat... Like I said you know it all....NOT