quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I have to see if I finally have this right! A revolver bullet creates a small permanent wound channel, needs penetration and kills by blood loss.
An arrow creates a small permanent wound channel, needs penetration and kills by blood loss.
Naw, the FBI has it wrong as do all the handgun hunters and archers with any experience.
All the animals I have taken did not die from the puny gunshot or arrow, they died of fright.
The huge blood trails do not mean a thing, what I wanted to do was blow up the inside of the animal instead.
I admit being wrong and will only use a .600 nitro with fragmenting bullets from now on and I need to find explosive arrows.
I guess being run through with a sword or spear won't work either---NO ENERGY!
Maybe my .475 will work if I step it up to 4000 fps. Chincy .44 just won't work anymore!
All of you that claim to have killed game with the .357 are just dreaming---Can't happen. It will only blow up tweety birds!
What you really want is a tiny entrance hole, a huge explosion inside and no exit hole. When all the blood stays inside, it kills faster, better learn to run as fast as the animal so you don't lose it.
I am sorry I sold my rifles, I sure miss the bloodshot meat and chewing bullet fragments. Darn funny they went the same distance as a revolver hit deer. Let's see, a .50 BMG costs how much? Bang-flop is not enough, need bang-fly.
I will never understand the deer I shot with the Ruger Old Army and a round ball. Standing next to my fence, I hit it and it went over the fence and fell in a heap on the other side. Someone must have shot it with a .300 at the same instant I shot. Or the smoke cloud scared it to death. Darn gun must have 10 tons of energy!
I appreciate the knowledge I learn here. Makes me want to give up hunting because my guns are not big enough.
Shrapnel from a grenade won't kill either, you have to stuff it down the enemy's throat first. Energy dump, you know!

You can tell when someone has no clue, they start trying to rationalizes and start making ignorant statements.
If all else fails babble. You have met that criteria...

Just because you are a long time hunter, does not mean you know everything. Read the link I posted here above, you might learn something.

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:

I am done here.

Wow, What credibility.............

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:

I am done here.

Wow, What credibility.............

I can't help myself, am attracted to stupid.

I take it you did not read the article.

Redhawk,

You are either through with this forum, or you a liar; simple as that. Or are you drawn to stupid because it's your comfort zone? Also, you DO NOT need to be tying up space with large articles that are readily available via means of a url.

Taylor also states in his book African Rifles and Cartridges that kinetic energy is misused by gunmakers and sellers to push larger rifles onto purchasers.

I guess I am a liar. Now you went and hurt my feelings... But I never said I was done with the Forum, maybe this thread. I may of been feed up with this thread, but I have the right to change my mind, or is that against the rules?

My comfort zone is anywhere I feel I want to be, I have been know to lower myself, just as you have.

I deleted that big post. I just thought some guys might want to see it without having to go the extra step.

This is where the stupid part comes in! This discussion started out asking what is needed for a revolver to be effective as a back up or a hunting arm. I think it was explained very well but to settle the thoughts of those that think the revolver is not good for anything, we have had a few move into the big bore rifle analogy.
I know and so does everyone else here, that you can not compare the two and stopping power between them is so different (With the exception that penetration is vital.) it does not warrant discussion. This post has strayed so far it is silly.
To claim that a bullet must not exit an animal because you lose vital energy is also stupid!
My hunting career started where only shotguns and muzzle loaders were legal. I killed several hundred animals with muzzle loaders and round balls. I had more bang-flops and short runs with them then I ever had with high power rifles. I also never lost an animal hit with them and I used from .45 to .50 and .54's. The only thing that is a tad better is the 12 gauge slug. Seems to me that almost every single ball went all the way through unless a lot of bone slowed it and flattened it. Bone damage is massive.
I find the big bore revolver also has given me many bang-flops and short runs, also with complete penetration. The reason I moved to large meplat cast boolits was because even with a rib cage hit, the XTP and other fast opening bullets did not penetrate. An entry bone hit or a quartering shot might limit penetration to the vitals. Do they kill faster then a cast? NO. It might surprise some that a deer can drop dead in it's tracks from a hard cast revolver boolit even when the spine is not hit.
It seems a lot of space has been wasted here trying to explain that a revolver can't kill or stop anything alive. Is it the best backup for large bear? NO! The big bore rifle or shotgun is better in every case but that was not the original question.
Do we get massive energy dumps with a revolver? Again, NO, not until you get to the .460 with light, fast expanding bullets at rifle velocities. Meat damage is massive and a lot is wasted. Not my cup of tea for a bear backup either because of limited penetration. It would be better served with a heavy, large meplat hard cast.
No where here has bullet constuction been discussed for any caliber, rifle or pistol and how important it is, even making small calibers deadly WITH BULLETS THAT EXPAND AND PENETRATE DEEP. What do some not understand about DEEP?
IF YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE A HOLE, MAKE IT A BIG ONE, ALL THE WAY THROUGH! (Sorry, had to do that!)
I loaded all the deer hunting loads for a friend's 30-06 and 7mm mag. He bought ONLY ballistic tips because he did not want a deer to move at the shot. He would totally destroy both shoulders and make the whole animal a bloodshot mess. Seems counter productive to me. Did you fellas that butchered hogs and cattle do that to your animals?
Quit comparing high power rifles to revolvers! Revolvers kill just like arrows, massive blood loss but with some energy added. A brain or spine hit with either is also an instant kill.
I have killed about 230 deer with arrows. The average life expectancy of a total pass through in the lungs is roughly 10 to 20 seconds. Yeah, they might run over 60 yd's in that time, but they are dead at the end. Did I need them to drop right now? WHY. I don't carry a bow for backup. Most revolver hits go from zero to less then 30 yd's, which is better for backup? A rifle is better but all of you that fish in bear country with a rifle in one hand, hold up your hands! Do all of you chop firewood with a rifle in one hand? I see, some of you are born with three arms.

BFR, you did pretty well there. Then you had to get stupid in that last paragraph by trying to compare the lethality of a bow with a handgun. Before you answer back with the same level as our living legend jwp, please do yourself a favor and read the Chuck Hawkes article on more time. If a pistol and a bow kill the animals the same way, why not carry a bow as a backup instead of the other way around? Now where that I saw was a rifle brought up in this thread about being a backup gun. We all know pistols are the only firearm to have as a last case scenario in hunting bears (and bears only -in Africa, the backup is a rifle in the hands of a gunbearer). I never expect a deer to do down in a heap with an arrow because I expect it to die of massive hemmorhaging. When I'm using a gun, however, I'm not looking for vital organs and hemmorhaging, I'm looking for massive shock of the central nervous system and immediate body function cessation. I don't know how to make some of you accept natural physical principles. Ever hear of the kid being killed by a baseball to the chest? How about a cop being shot with a .44 in his bulletproof vest dying? There was no blood loss there, but the shock of blunt force trauma shutting down the central nervous system. Concussions work just that way as well.

I guess I'm just going to have to leave this thread completely as some of you seem incapable of being educated. Unlike redhawk, I'm not attracted to stupid. I'm attracted to ignorance because ignorance can be avoided with education. Stupid is terminal.

George, you do not read very well! Lack of education maybe? Did I not say that the revolver is better but still not as good as the rifle or shotgun? The only thing I said was the arrow and revolver boolit depends on bleed out.
How many deer have you shot with the .44 wearing a vest? How much energy is dumped into a deer with the pipsqueek .44? Is it enough to dump every deer in it's tracks no matter where hit? Massive disruption from a .44???
You are losing and will say anything to defend idiocy. I do not even depend on the .475 to creat massive disruption. It makes big holes all the way through and blood loss is massive.
Why do you compare blunt force trauma to a human with a hole through a deer or any other animal? Seems as if a fist to the chest will kill a human but how many deer have you punched? Have you ever killed a griz with your fist?

Something of interest for all of you. Quote;
pruhdlr, I have a 454 Casull, I practice with 454 Casull loads, I get enough trigger time with all my other guns to have to practice with 45 Colts in my 454 Casull.

I personally do not like the concept of a gun that people use to shoot lesser rounds i.e... 454 Casull/45 Colts, or a 460 Mag shooting a 454 Casull or 45 Colt. My 460 Mags only shoot 460 mag ammo. I did not buy bigger bore handguns to down load, that is why I bought them, to shoot heavy and hard hitting loads.

I also think the 480 and .50 A&E will be here for a long long time.

I will agree that a S&W 460 is probably the best long range "revolver's " out on the market today. I can hit a 4 inch clay target at 150 yards with a 300 gr hard cast bullet all day from the bench with my 7.5 in S&W 460 Mag.

As far as the 460 and 500 Ruger's, it is S&W that makes the 460 and 500 Mags. As for the shorter barrels, they have a different application than a long range revolver, they are for up close and personal encounters. I know from actual hands on experience that my 4 inch S&W 500 mag is a tack driver out to 30 to 35 yards. Not bad for an actual 3 inch barrel. You are not taking much of the power off with a shorter barrel, you need to do some ballistic research and you will see the velocity difference is not that far off.

I have a 4 inch S&W 500 Mag and a 2.5 inch Custom Ruger Redhawk 454 Casull, and I sure did not buy them just to say I own them, I use them. I hunt in bear country and it sure feel's good knowing I have a BIG bore handgun on my side if ever needed. But in reality I personally do not care what others think of the guns I bought for myself. We all have our reasons for what we like, and we all should let others enjoy them without judgement.
__________________
If you're going to make a hole make it a big one.
Redhawk is actually defending big bore handguns!

bfrshooter, you try to complicate an easy issue. You throw in all these analogies and then try to debunk fact.


Have you ever shot a deer with an arrow to high to hit vital organs and to low to hit the spinal column?
This is a serious question.

Now make that same shot with a bullet and the deer goes down, now you have not hit a vital organ, but you shocked the central nervous system, hydraulic shock causes that, you cannot do that with an arrow.

I don't think anyone here said animals are harder to kill now than they were 50 years ago, but the main question and the reason this thread was started was for back up, not a perfect world hunting shot.
You are trying to stop a charge.

Read Chuck Hawks article, it is a good one.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Something of interest for all of you. Quote;
pruhdlr, I have a 454 Casull, I practice with 454 Casull loads, I get enough trigger time with all my other guns to have to practice with 45 Colts in my 454 Casull.

I personally do not like the concept of a gun that people use to shoot lesser rounds i.e... 454 Casull/45 Colts, or a 460 Mag shooting a 454 Casull or 45 Colt. My 460 Mags only shoot 460 mag ammo. I did not buy bigger bore handguns to down load, that is why I bought them, to shoot heavy and hard hitting loads.

I also think the 480 and .50 A&E will be here for a long long time.

I will agree that a S&W 460 is probably the best long range "revolver's " out on the market today. I can hit a 4 inch clay target at 150 yards with a 300 gr hard cast bullet all day from the bench with my 7.5 in S&W 460 Mag.

As far as the 460 and 500 Ruger's, it is S&W that makes the 460 and 500 Mags. As for the shorter barrels, they have a different application than a long range revolver, they are for up close and personal encounters. I know from actual hands on experience that my 4 inch S&W 500 mag is a tack driver out to 30 to 35 yards. Not bad for an actual 3 inch barrel. You are not taking much of the power off with a shorter barrel, you need to do some ballistic research and you will see the velocity difference is not that far off.

I have a 4 inch S&W 500 Mag and a 2.5 inch Custom Ruger Redhawk 454 Casull, and I sure did not buy them just to say I own them, I use them. I hunt in bear country and it sure feel's good knowing I have a BIG bore handgun on my side if ever needed. But in reality I personally do not care what others think of the guns I bought for myself. We all have our reasons for what we like, and we all should let others enjoy them without judgement.
__________________
If you're going to make a hole make it a big one.
Redhawk is actually defending big bore handguns!

That's because I use them...
If you read all my posts here you would see, I recommend a bigger gun over the 45 Colt.

So what does that do for your argument?

Exactly, Redhawk. You have now become reasonable. Like I said before over and over, we DO agree on 99.9%.
So I apologize if I seemed to rub you wrong, it was not intentional.
It is better to discuss things rationally according to actual experience, weigh and evaluate each thing and form an opinion based on fact and not from some writer from a rag saying something. I will never believe what is written, only what I see in the field for myself. I feel you are the same. That is why I put your post here, we do think the same and there is no need for friction.
There is nothing worse then an armchair hunter or football player! We seem to have a few here.

OK bfrshooter, this is a little something I was thinking, and tell me what you think.

Hypothetical of course.
A .38 Special in just as good for killing deer as a .357 Mag. Both shooting a 180 gr. bullets. The .38 should do a better job because a slow velocity is better than more velocity, correct.
A 45 ACP shooting a 230 gr. hard cast bullet, is as good as a 454 Casull with a 240 gr. bullet, after all they are very close to the same bore diameter. You don't need the extra fps to make the 45 ACP and big game killer.

Why take a 45 Colt loaded to the hilt for a back up gun, why not a 45 ACP. Big heavy bullet, slow, what else can you ask for. It is the ultimate killing machine and back up gun.

Arrows kill just like bullets, why not take a bow for back up?

Sounds kind of silly to me, but heck, I could of saved myself a lot of money buying all my 450 and 500 Mags.

bfrshooter,
If you were walking in the tundra of Alaska and a big Grizzly bear was coming after you, would you feel good about having a 45 ACP in your hand? Or would you want something else and why?

You are correct, we do agree on a lot of things, except how bullets and arrows actually kill.

I don't like small bore guns, or light bullets, I like a big hole.

I believe it is more a function of bullet design and weight than outright velocity. But, that's just my humble opinion....... Also remember that you are more prone to bullet failure if the velocity is high. Debate, gentlemen, not argument!

Whitworth, we have agreed on a lot in the past and have always kept it friendly, even when we did not see it 100% the same, nothing has changed. And again I agree, bullets do funny things.

George & Redhawk1, Lets see a few pictures of game that you 2 have taken. I am sure that George has a few picures after killing every Big game animal In North America

Here are a couple that I have taken with a handgun










All one shot kills with a Handgun

jwp475, I don't have to post pictures to try to convince you of anything, I have a ton of pic's of handgun kills, bow kills and rifle kills, I have made. Put posting them is not going to change the fact about the above argument and disagreement.

I don't feel the need to post a bunch of pic's to blow my horn.... All one has to do is visit my home and see the 30 plus mounts I have on my walls. Deer, hog, black bear's, water buffalo, fox, coyote, and Caribou, just to name a few.

Redhawk, no where have I ever stated that a little more velocity is not an advantage in a revolver. Boolit design can make it effective even if it is driven slow but more velocity will add to penetration. You just can't get enough speed to make it into a gun with the tremendous impact of a rifle although the .460 comes close. (High velocity with lighter bullets that can't be had with a .44 or .45.)
In fact I firmly believe an arrow that is real heavy is better driven as fast as it can go even though there is no energy transfer to speak of although I have knocked deer off their feet sideways when bone was hit.
The point is to make a HEAVY revolver boolit faster, not switch to a light one to gain speed and paper energy figures.
Whitworth makes a good point in that a heavy, well designed boolit going slow will still do the job but more velocity does thump harder and flattens trajectory. He is NOT talking about a .38 or .45ACP and neither am I. Going a few hundred FPS faster then a hot loaded, heavy .45 Colt load will not ensure more internal destruction but will extend the distance the boolit penetrates. That can cause more trauma to the animal in itself. Energy transfer is moot!
Have you noticed from previous posts that I hate the .357 and love the .44, .45, .475 and 45-70 revolvers? Why? Because the bigger the boolit the better it kills. I just can't see where we disagree! I just can't argue with you because you are right!
I was just wondering why you were questioning my posts when your answers are the same? Big, heavy and fast is where it's at. I shoot a 347 gr WFN boolit from my .45 Vaquero at near 1200 fps, am I under gunned? Personally, I think you would love my load.
Tell you a secret too, Whitworth loves BIG, HEAVY and FAST boolits too. I shoot with him and he is a hell of a good shot and hunter. We both agree that the right boolit at 1000 fps will kill, as will the same boolit at 1200 fps and 1300 fps is even better.
Rifles versus handguns--apples and oranges. Make the revolver effective, thats all that can be done and the way is boolit weight, boolit configuration and as much velocity as can be had without losing vital accuracy.
You say make a big hole but I still say make TWO big holes. Once the boolit does it's job, I don't care if it goes another hundred yards.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Redhawk, no where have I ever stated that a little more velocity is not an advantage in a revolver. Boolit design can make it effective even if it is driven slow but more velocity will add to penetration. You just can't get enough speed to make it into a gun with the tremendous impact of a rifle although the .460 comes close. (High velocity with lighter bullets that can't be had with a .44 or .45.)
In fact I firmly believe an arrow that is real heavy is better driven as fast as it can go even though there is no energy transfer to speak of although I have knocked deer off their feet sideways when bone was hit.
The point is to make a HEAVY revolver boolit faster, not switch to a light one to gain speed and paper energy figures.
Whitworth makes a good point in that a heavy, well designed boolit going slow will still do the job but more velocity does thump harder and flattens trajectory. He is NOT talking about a .38 or .45ACP and neither am I. Going a few hundred FPS faster then a hot loaded, heavy .45 Colt load will not ensure more internal destruction but will extend the distance the boolit penetrates. That can cause more trauma to the animal in itself. Energy transfer is moot!
Have you noticed from previous posts that I hate the .357 and love the .44, .45, .475 and 45-70 revolvers? Why? Because the bigger the boolit the better it kills. I just can't see where we disagree! I just can't argue with you because you are right!
I was just wondering why you were questioning my posts when your answers are the same? Big, heavy and fast is where it's at. I shoot a 347 gr WFN boolit from my .45 Vaquero at near 1200 fps, am I under gunned? Personally, I think you would love my load.
Tell you a secret too, Whitworth loves BIG, HEAVY and FAST boolits too. I shoot with him and he is a hell of a good shot and hunter. We both agree that the right boolit at 1000 fps will kill, as will the same boolit at 1200 fps and 1300 fps is even better.
Rifles versus handguns--apples and oranges. Make the revolver effective, thats all that can be done and the way is boolit weight, boolit configuration and as much velocity as can be had without losing vital accuracy.
You say make a big hole but I still say make TWO big holes. Once the boolit does it's job, I don't care if it goes another hundred yards.

Now we are getting some where... It took long enough.

I love handgun hunting, I reload for all my hunting handguns. I don't think 90% of my loads are near max load data. I start at the bottom of the load data and work my way up. As soon as I find a load that is accurate in my handgun, I stop. The only handgun I push is my 460 Mag, I am doing longer distance hunting with it, I want the velocity up.

Even though we don't agree 100% on this subject we can agree on big holes.

Amen to big holes!

Great, now we only have one guy left to see the light!

I know George agrees on big holes. I reload his 500 Mag with 575 gr. hard cast bullets from Range Rick. George is not an avid handgun hunter, but I know he can shoot handguns very good. I have shot and hunted with George a long time.

We are scheduled on a Black bear hunt in Maine this year, it is going to be a handgun only hunt, and you guessed it, the 500 Mags are going.

Redhawk -- how fast are you driving those 575 grain bullets? Just curious. What kind of groups can you get with them?

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Redhawk, no where have I ever stated that a little more velocity is not an advantage in a revolver. Boolit design can make it effective even if it is driven slow but more velocity will add to penetration. You just can't get enough speed to make it into a gun with the tremendous impact of a rifle although the .460 comes close. (High velocity with lighter bullets that can't be had with a .44 or .45.)
In fact I firmly believe an arrow that is real heavy is better driven as fast as it can go even though there is no energy transfer to speak of although I have knocked deer off their feet sideways when bone was hit.
The point is to make a HEAVY revolver boolit faster, not switch to a light one to gain speed and paper energy figures.
Whitworth makes a good point in that a heavy, well designed boolit going slow will still do the job but more velocity does thump harder and flattens trajectory. He is NOT talking about a .38 or .45ACP and neither am I. Going a few hundred FPS faster then a hot loaded, heavy .45 Colt load will not ensure more internal destruction but will extend the distance the boolit penetrates. That can cause more trauma to the animal in itself. Energy transfer is moot!
Have you noticed from previous posts that I hate the .357 and love the .44, .45, .475 and 45-70 revolvers? Why? Because the bigger the boolit the better it kills. I just can't see where we disagree! I just can't argue with you because you are right!
I was just wondering why you were questioning my posts when your answers are the same? Big, heavy and fast is where it's at. I shoot a 347 gr WFN boolit from my .45 Vaquero at near 1200 fps, am I under gunned? Personally, I think you would love my load.
Tell you a secret too, Whitworth loves BIG, HEAVY and FAST boolits too. I shoot with him and he is a hell of a good shot and hunter. We both agree that the right boolit at 1000 fps will kill, as will the same boolit at 1200 fps and 1300 fps is even better.
Rifles versus handguns--apples and oranges. Make the revolver effective, thats all that can be done and the way is boolit weight, boolit configuration and as much velocity as can be had without losing vital accuracy.
You say make a big hole but I still say make TWO big holes. Once the boolit does it's job, I don't care if it goes another hundred yards.

bfrshooter, that is a common missconception that more velocity always means more penetration. Last year at the Linebaugh seminar in Jackson Miss. the 475 Linebaugh, 500 Linebaugh and the 500 JRH and the 50 Alaskan revolver all out penetrated the 410 grain round nose solid fired from a 416 Rigby. The 525 grain bullet from the 500 linebaugh at 1096 FPS penetrated 50" and my 50 Alaskan revolver with the same bullet at 1570 FPS also penetrated 50" the same as the 500 linebaugh at only 1096 FPS, more velocity, but no more pentration. The 500 Linebaugh and the 500 JRH penetrated and th50" and the 416 Rigby penetrated 46" and the 475 Linebaugh penetrated 49".

The recent Barnes test that Clair Rees's article refers to in the March issue of Rifle Magazine, showed a 300 RUM exiting the block of ordinance gellitin 200 FPS less than the same bullet when fired from a 30-06. This is conclusive prove that simply raising the velocity does not guarrenty more penetration....

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
jwp475, I don't have to post pictures to try to convince you of anything, I have a ton of pic's of handgun kills, bow kills and rifle kills, I have made. Put posting them is not going to change the fact about the above argument and disagreement.

I don't feel the need to post a bunch of pic's to blow my horn.... All one has to do is visit my home and see the 30 plus mounts I have on my walls. Deer, hog, black bear's, water buffalo, fox, coyote, and Caribou, just to name a few.

Since were not going to be doing that, how convenant. Clues as always.......

BFR, you read that all wrong. I agreed with everything you said EXCEPT the part about an arrow killing the same way as a bullet. Even in that, we agree somewhat with the bloodloss issue, but I maintain that shock is a coinciding factor that plays an equally important role.

jwp, I'm truly sorry you feel the need to blow your own horn to prove your battery's not dead. I haven't reached that plateau yet. I do have pictures of the big game I've taken, but your trying to be playground bully here for me to "prove" an issue to you only insures that I'm not playing your silly little game. I have a game room pretty well filled with animals I've taken and they're there for MY enjoyment, not yours or anyone elses. I did notice that 2 our of your three were game farm animals (the whitetail might well have been also as you nor your friend have any hunter orange on) and I'll have to plead that I only have one of those; a 140 class Axis I shot with my .270 and a 130 grain bullet at 225 yards in Okeechobee Florida. He may have made it 30 yards before he piled into a palm tree and expired so I'm pretty sure he didn't have time to bleed to death. I probably have that on video someplace. Drop by some time and I'll share it with you.

BFR, back to your point. The posting was for BACKUP guns for BIG BEARS. I think we've highjacked the thread with this other stuff. If I went after the big coastal browns, I don't know if I'd settle for the .338 as a primary. I'd probably look for the .375 H&H. For a "backup" PISTOL, I'd probably take the .454 Casull simply because the Ruger Super Redhawk I'd use has been customized by Jack Huntington into a one-of-a-kind JRH Super Streethawk. It has a short barrel that would make it much easier to wield that the .460 or the .500. Put into a life and death situation, I'd want something I stood a chance of holding on to working for me as well as something that would make a VERY BIG hole.

So in reality, it's not ME you have to convince of anything. If I could just get you to see the differences between arrows and bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
BFR, you read that all wrong. I agreed with everything you said EXCEPT the part about an arrow killing the same way as a bullet. Even in that, we agree somewhat with the bloodloss issue, but I maintain that shock is a coinciding factor that plays an equally important role.

jwp, I'm truly sorry you feel the need to blow your own horn to prove your battery's not dead. I haven't reached that plateau yet. I do have pictures of the big game I've taken, but your trying to be playground bully here for me to "prove" an issue to you only insures that I'm not playing your silly little game. I have a game room pretty well filled with animals I've taken and they're there for MY enjoyment, not yours or anyone elses. I did notice that 2 our of your three were game farm animals (the whitetail might well have been also as you nor your friend have any hunter orange on) and I'll have to plead that I only have one of those; a 140 class Axis I shot with my .270 and a 130 grain bullet at 225 yards in Okeechobee Florida. He may have made it 30 yards before he piled into a palm tree and expired so I'm pretty sure he didn't have time to bleed to death. I probably have that on video someplace. Drop by some time and I'll share it with you.

BFR, back to your point. The posting was for BACKUP guns for BIG BEARS. I think we've highjacked the thread with this other stuff. If I went after the big coastal browns, I don't know if I'd settle for the .338 as a primary. I'd probably look for the .375 H&H. For a "backup" PISTOL, I'd probably take the .454 Casull simply because the Ruger Super Redhawk I'd use has been customized by Jack Huntington into a one-of-a-kind JRH Super Streethawk. It has a short barrel that would make it much easier to wield that the .460 or the .500. Put into a life and death situation, I'd want something I stood a chance of holding on to working for me as well as something that would make a VERY BIG hole.

So in reality, it's not ME you have to convince of anything. If I could just get you to see the differences between arrows and bullets.

You are the one to have claimed to have killed every big game animal in North America.
You are as clueless as it gets. You run your mouth about crap that you apparently know nothing about. You admitt that you are not a handgun hunter, yet you prefess to know things that you are clues about.

Yes an arrow and a bullet both cause massive bleeding of which you claim to not be aware off.


I am a personal friend of Jack huntington and have known him and hunted with him for over 12 years. The fact that you are going to use a handgun of smaller statue than that albatros huge frame S&W shows that you may be getting a clue...

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
jwp475, I don't have to post pictures to try to convince you of anything, I have a ton of pic's of handgun kills, bow kills and rifle kills, I have made. Put posting them is not going to change the fact about the above argument and disagreement.

I don't feel the need to post a bunch of pic's to blow my horn.... All one has to do is visit my home and see the 30 plus mounts I have on my walls. Deer, hog, black bear's, water buffalo, fox, coyote, and Caribou, just to name a few.

Since were not going to be doing that, how convenant. Clues as always.......

George, I guess we are not big game hunters, we have not posted pic's to prove it.

jwp475, more velocity may not give you more penetration, but it will give you more energy transfer. Oh yea, that is a myth according to you. Sorry I lost my head for a moment.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
jwp, I'm truly sorry you feel the need to blow your own horn to prove your battery's not dead. bullets.

Perhaps you forgot this little post.

[quote] by george roof
JWP, I've shot and killed every big game animal in North America except the BIG bears and a cougar. [quote]

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
jwp, I'm truly sorry you feel the need to blow your own horn to prove your battery's not dead.

Perhaps you forgot this old post


{Quote} by george roof
JWP, I've shot and killed every big game animal in North America except the BIG bears and a cougar. {quote}


Tell us some more BS

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
BFR, you read that all wrong. I agreed with everything you said EXCEPT the part about an arrow killing the same way as a bullet. Even in that, we agree somewhat with the bloodloss issue, but I maintain that shock is a coinciding factor that plays an equally important role.

jwp, I'm truly sorry you feel the need to blow your own horn to prove your battery's not dead. I haven't reached that plateau yet. I do have pictures of the big game I've taken, but your trying to be playground bully here for me to "prove" an issue to you only insures that I'm not playing your silly little game. I have a game room pretty well filled with animals I've taken and they're there for MY enjoyment, not yours or anyone elses. I did notice that 2 our of your three were game farm animals (the whitetail might well have been also as you nor your friend have any hunter orange on) and I'll have to plead that I only have one of those; a 140 class Axis I shot with my .270 and a 130 grain bullet at 225 yards in Okeechobee Florida. He may have made it 30 yards before he piled into a palm tree and expired so I'm pretty sure he didn't have time to bleed to death. I probably have that on video someplace. Drop by some time and I'll share it with you.

BFR, back to your point. The posting was for BACKUP guns for BIG BEARS. I think we've highjacked the thread with this other stuff. If I went after the big coastal browns, I don't know if I'd settle for the .338 as a primary. I'd probably look for the .375 H&H. For a "backup" PISTOL, I'd probably take the .454 Casull simply because the Ruger Super Redhawk I'd use has been customized by Jack Huntington into a one-of-a-kind JRH Super Streethawk. It has a short barrel that would make it much easier to wield that the .460 or the .500. Put into a life and death situation, I'd want something I stood a chance of holding on to working for me as well as something that would make a VERY BIG hole.

So in reality, it's not ME you have to convince of anything. If I could just get you to see the differences between arrows and bullets.

You are the one to have claimed to have killed every big game animal in North America.
You are as clueless as it gets. You run your mouth about crap that you apparently know nothing about. You admitt that you are not a handgun hunter, yet you prefess to know things that you are clues about.

Yes an arrow and a bullet both cause massive bleeding of which you claim to not be aware off.


I am a personal friend of Jack huntington and have known him and hunted with him for over 12 years. The fact that you are going to use a handgun of smaller statue than that albatros huge frame S&W shows that you may be getting a clue...

OK now the truth comes out, you just don't like the S&W 460 or 500 Mags, that dammed X-frame....
I own the JHR custom Super Streehawk handgun in 454 Casull that George is talking about. He uses it for his back up and I use my S&W 4 inch 500 Mag. I don't think it is a better choice over my 500 Mag, but as a back up it will work...

I don't have to be personal friends with Jack Huntington or go to a Linebaugh seminar to know how bullets kill.... Unless name dropping helps...

Redhawk, I just went back and found where you stated how fast you are pushing that 575 grain bullet. What powder are you using? What is the case capacity of the .500 Smith? Can you post a picture of the bullet? I would love to see it.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
jwp, I'm truly sorry you feel the need to blow your own horn to prove your battery's not dead.

Perhaps you forgot this old post


{Quote} by george roof
JWP, I've shot and killed every big game animal in North America except the BIG bears and a cougar. {quote}


Tell us some more BS

jwp475,
You question the integrity of a person you don't even know. The only one here with a real problem is you.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Redhawk, I just went back and found where you stated how fast you are pushing that 575 grain bullet. What powder are you using? What is the case capacity of the .500 Smith? Can you post a picture of the bullet? I would love to see it.

Whitworth, I am using Lil-gun. I will see if George will post a pic of the 575 gr. 500 Mag. I load them up for him. I use 370 and 440 gr. hard cast in my 500 Mags. My BFR will not shoot the 575 gr. very well, I get key holes at 25 yards, now Georges S&W 500 Mag will shoot them very well. My 4 inch 500 Mags does good with the 370 and 440 gr. bullets.

As for case capacity, I would have to check with different powders. I use W 296 and H 110 in a lot of my loads.

jwp, your comments have suddenly become scary. Are you mentally stable? First you quote me as saying I'd killed all the North American game animals and then you change it to c&p what I ACTUALLY said and then you're misspelling words. You ridicule me and then post pictures of game farm animals. Geez man, lighten up.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Redhawk, I just went back and found where you stated how fast you are pushing that 575 grain bullet. What powder are you using? What is the case capacity of the .500 Smith? Can you post a picture of the bullet? I would love to see it.

E-mail me and I will send you the pic's of the 575 gr. bullets I loaded for George. He sent me an e-mail with them.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
jwp, your comments have suddenly become scary. Are you mentally stable? First you quote me as saying I'd killed all the North American game animals and then you change it to c&p what I ACTUALLY said and then you're misspelling words. You ridicule me and then post pictures of game farm animals. Geez man, lighten up.

You DIP you can't even remember what you post.... Definately a Paper Hat Member........

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1: E-mail me and I will send you the pic's of the 575 gr. bullets I loaded for George. He sent me an e-mail with them.

Shall do. E-mail 'em to me and I'll post them up.

Ok, bought some Cast Performance 335 gr WFNGC'S today @ Sportsman Warehouse. Anybody got any load data for these heavy things? Something appropriate to the pressure levels my S&W 625-9 can digest w/o indigestion and will spit out to make loooong deeeeep holes in a bear, if needed.

I want to try them since the 265 gr CP's were so accurate. My barrel must like the lead hardness of these things.

Even though I may not agree with all who have posted on this thread, I do appreciate the input.