The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Handgun Hunting 460 S&W Hardcast or Jacketed on BuffaloGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| Moderator |
Guys, guys, just hang on. I'm waiting to hear back from Webster as to whether or not versatile has been redefined. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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| one of us |
first let me say im no expert on the 500 smith. I just dont care for them but alot of people dont like the guns i like. If i was to take one on a truely big game hunt or dangerous game hunt it would be loaded with an @500 grain lfn cast hard and pushed to between 1300 and 1400 fps or better yet a punch bullet doing the same. Any more speed then that and a cast bullet wont hold up well so you might as well do the heavy thing and get some real penetration. | |||
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| Moderator |
Lloyd, This discussion is concerning the .460 S&W, not the .500 S&W. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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| one of us |
sorry then id say the same thing but with a 320-350 grain hard cast bullet. | |||
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| Moderator |
Just trying to moderate and keep the topic on subject. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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One of Us |
You mean you don't have an ignore list like Jeffeosso?
http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/2571000821/p/3 _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Moderator |
Thanks, for looking out for our best interests, Mr. Moderator.  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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simple as charged!  | |||
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| one of us |
What a bunch of pansy's, here is my 2000 yard buffler gun and if it fails I whip out my .38 S&W.  | |||
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| One of Us |
well, it certainly is big and loud whitworth, then again, none are exactly quiet but i know what ya mean. versatility has not been redefined....if you look at range of loads available, both in cartridge, 45 colt, 454 casull, and 460! then, factor in the wide range of weights, velocities and bullet types and.................well you get most versatile, gun isn't that big. i do understand if some of the elder statesmen here find it exhausting. some of us can handle the weight without thinking twice.  i guess that's why there's a market for 6 pound rifles, to some one weighing 8-10 pounds is just toooooooo much.  | |||
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| Moderator |
Once you get away from the niche of 200 grain bullets at high velocity there is not that much difference between what the .460 can do versus the .454. Additional velocity between what the two cartridges can deliver does not deliver the "knock-down" as hyped nor does the additional kinetic energy give an advantage. The revolvers are large for the performance one gets. If I am going to pack a handgun of that size, I'll go with a Contender. Now this is my opinion of the revolver and cartridge. As I've said before, if others like it; that's great - more power to you. Just don't get upset if we all don't share your enthusiasm. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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| One of Us |
Eaxactly how is the 460 "more versatile? It is bigger in size and weigh and offers, "what advantage?" None IMHO and Experience over a 454 which is more compact and lighter. If one needs a bigger handgun why not get one with an advantage in the field? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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yep, well we will once again agree to disagree on this one. if you don't see the diff b/w using a 200 grain velocity x bullet on antelope and deer with a very very flat trajectory for a pistol and a 360 grain hardcast and the ability to go heavier handloaded then i can't help you. i would and will use a 275 xpb on elk/buff and it has great affect. and no.....it's not waaaaay faster in all loading than the casull but trajectory IS a difference in the field and as i have said numerous times in the past i have not seen a difference b/w the casull and the .500's the .475. they all have killed anything shot with them, however it sure was super nice hunting deer with the kids this christmas and having my long barreled casull which carried quite nicely but so does the smith's imho. anyway, the ability to not have to adjust my sights at all out to over a hundred yards sure did help and resulted with a nice axis buck with one of the most impressive exit wounds i've ever seen courtesy of a barnes 250 grain xpb which performed well above the expectations of such a light bullet and at it's velocity. i guess the real source of disagreement sometimes is not everyone agrees that a hardcast at 1250 fps is the greatest thing since sliced bread. i've had several failures on hardcast in the past and i get much better results with premium expandables with no probs with penetration. also, once again, the ability to shoot 3 different cartridges, 45 colt, 454 and 460 is ignored as making something versatile, well over 90 factory loadings can be shot from that pistol compared to less than 10 for a 500 linebaugh and 13 for a 475 at last count. that does indeed get included in the "versatility" category. | |||
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| One of Us |
and ONE.......doesn't anything bigger than a .44 mag if you can shoot. so need for bigger doesn't exist. | |||
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Well first let me say I do not have a 460 S&W, most likely never will... But I have to agree with tradmark, that the 460 S&W is versatile. It does exactly what it was designed to to, that MAIN thing being, to be able to make long range killing shots on deer sized game. Deer are the most widely hunted big game in the US. This revolver, and its light weight pointed bullet was specifically designed to do just that. If I remember correctly the S&W has Gain Twist rifling to allow the high speeds and good accuracy. THEN, also it will shoot 454 ammo, including the heavy bullets, as well as 45 Colt. Also since it is a DA S&W it is quick to load, and quick to unload. Just because some of us are not scoped long range handgun kind of guys, does not mean we cannot appreciate the concept, and the tool that does it. Also the gun, if I remember correctly, comes with 2 different muzzle breaks, one for jacketed bullets and one designed for cast bullets, that you can shoot jacketed bullets through as well. Again many of us do not like ported or Muzzle breaked handguns, but if you are shooting out of a DEER blind, reducing the recoil so you do not bang the barrel on the window frame is not a bad idea. So I think IF a person has the NEED, then the 460 S&W is a great choice. After all it is not like a bolt action "handgun" or a Contender, at least it is a REAL Revolver. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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This percieved "long range" advantage of the 460 escapes. So I must ask, how far hae any of you taken game with an "open sighted" revolver? My 2 longest kills with an open sighted revolver was a Carribou at about 150 yards and a pig at 218 yards. I was shooting a 310 grain LBT at 1240 FPS on the Carribou and an LBT 325 grainer at almost 1400 on the pig. IN both cases the bullets exited and put the animals down quickly. IMHO and experience I fail to see the "great" percieved advantage _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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one of us |
That is why it is called an opinion. There is no right or wrong here, but some take it to an extreme.  If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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| one of us |
I guess it depends on what you think versitile means. To me it means a gun that can be loaded to take about any game animal, i could care less about factory ammo or even jacketed bullets a Id never use them in my handguns to hunt with. The gun to be versitile has to be easily carried all day and to me that means something that will holster up in a hip holster. If i have to use slings and sholder holsters ill just carry a rifle thankyou. Handgun hunting has become a passion of mine over the last 15 years. Why? becuase it puts the thrill of hunting like i get bow hunting back into the equation. That means stalking and up close hunting. I could care less if a handgun is capable of killing deer at 200 yards.In my opinion theres not a handfull of the most experienced handgunners in this country that have any bussiness blasting away at live animals at that range anyway. So what does that mean at least for the 45 calibers. A large framed ruger 45 colt will push a 300 grain bullet to 1200 fps easily and that will shoot lenghtwize through a 500 lb animal at a 100 yards and if you increase the velocity of a cast bullet much more and it will do nothing but degrade its performance. I also own a 454 fa and its a nice gun but im not trying to fool myself into thinking its much more then a good heavy 45 colt gun. Ive been around handgunning long enough to know that if you are shooting 200 grain jacketed 45s at 2000 fps your are eventually going to have bullet failure. Ive done it myself in 45 colt carbines. The bullets may expand proplerly way out there but one time your going to get a 10 yard shot and your bullet is going to fail and id bet everything i own that if you take your smith death ray and blaze away at 200 yard deer long enough your either going to admitt to wounding some dear or learn to tell lies to your freinds and as i sit here with my dog at my feet it reminds me that any animal shouldnt be treated that cruely. | |||
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What I don't understand is some will pack a 10 pound rifle all day hunting elephant and not bitch. Some will get a 7 lb. 300 Winchester Magnum and then bitch about the recoil. Now we have people bitching about the weight difference between a 460 S&W and stuff like 454 Casull or 45 Colt. Really now, I can't see the problem with packing even a 5 or 6 lb. handgun on the hip. Get a good holster and belt and it should pack just fine. Do ya'll know what the weight difference is between a S&W 460V with a 5 inch barrel and a Freedom Arms 83 with a 6 inch barrel? WAY less than a pound and, by my scale, each less than 5 lbs total weight. If a couple of pounds is that critical, I would suggest losing a few around the middle; most of us could lose even more with significant health benefits accrueing. Regarding the gain twist in S&W revolvers; it's there because the torque without it was too hard on scopes. The twist on S&W revolvers ends up at 1:20 at the muzzle while that of Encores is 1:16. I've shot 200 gr. bullets meant for 45 Autos in an Encore with gives higher velocities than that obtainable in a revolver with no problems of shed jackets, etc. | |||
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| One of Us |
A lot us people see a handgun as a weapon of opertunity, a smaller package of lighter wieght with enough power to git-r-done will be on you while doing camp chores or any other activity and not be a obtrusive. I am of this camp if the gun is to be considered "versitile" I shot the Grizz that came in on us while working a Moose kill, because my rifle was proped against a tree. The converted Ruger in 475 Linebaugh was on me when I neede it despite the fact that I working on the Moose. The revolver was not a problem while working and was there when I needed it. I also slept wit the 475 on my chest in my sleeping bag in case a Grizz wanted in my tent. A larger frame revolver would be more difficult to do these things with and may not be available when needed. Now that is "versitile" IMHO _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
I have no dought about this but, you have no barrel cylinder gap to transition either _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
For me, a 460V with a 5 inch barrel is very packable all day. In fact, once my Milt Sparks holster get here I'll probably be packing mine around the farm all day. As for the no barrel to cylinder gap; I've shot the 45 Auto bullets in both the Encore and the revolver. | |||
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| One of Us |
Be carefull about driving them too fast in a`revolver _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| Moderator |
Please post the photos when you crack the forcing cone from overdriving those jaceted bullets. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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| One of Us |
I would also like to see the pictures as well 454's shooting light bullet at max velocity have cracked the forcing cones, the 460 can only be a worse offender with its increased speed and powder capacity 460, More Versitile, not to my or in IMHO _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| Moderator |
This is the deal breaker for me:  Is that a Model 36 below the XVR? Why no, it is a 6.5-inch Model 29 (-3)....... You can call it what you want, but it is no packable revolver. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Will do. | |||
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| One of Us |
yeah, what you described lloyd is a 454 casull. very very versatile and does ALMOST everything as well as the 460 but packable. it's tremendously nice to be able to have a good trajectory, esp when you have no range finder and have unknown yardages. i still don't get what a 500 or 475 will do that a .454 or 460 won't. the 454 has taken EVERYTHING that walks the earth and done so EASILY, where's the logic the 460 wouldn't. AND the barnes 275 grain loadings have produced wound channels 2nd only to the largest 500 smith barnes loads. very very impressive round. i sold the .475 and kept the casulls and purchased the 460 based on the versatility. not knocking any calibers, they're all fun, but versatility is a fairly easily defined term. mine, and all my friend's 460's do fine and haven't had any issues at all. you want a big hardcast then go for the 395 grain hardcasts or middle of the road 360's. great expandable loads, piece of cake they're all there. great gun, if it's too much gun as far as size, fine. | |||
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| one of us |
tradmark im not a real fan of the 454. I own one in a fa gun but dont shoot it much. I feel that a cast bullet, and there about all i shoot, do there best with a 1300 fps ceiling and a 6 shot ruger 45 will get you there with a 320 grain bullet. 45 bullets heavier then 350 grain become hard to get to shoot well. Most barrels just arent twisted for them. With a 475 i can easily push a 420 grain bullet to 1300 fps and do it with alot less pressure then a 454 is operating at. That will usually result in less muzzle flash and although not less recoil, less of a sharp recoil. It also is eaiser on brass and guns. A 500 is more of the same. Where a 454 runs at over 50000psi a 475 is running at about 450000 and a 500 is running at around 30000. Another advantage to the bigger guns is in a 475 you can use an lfn bullet design that still has as big of a meplat as a 45 wfn bullet so usually they will hold accuracy out to longer ranges. Another advantage is in my experience anyway the 475 and 500 are less finiky to load for and easier to find accurate loads. I guess my main point is that if im going to put up with heavy recoil i see not one advantage to using a smaller bore gun at higher velocity over a larger bore at lower velocity. | |||
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| One of Us |
good statement lloyd, i've never had probs getting my loads to shoot well out of my casull, never really noticed a big diff b/w that and the .475, however, experiences differ. never really had a prob getting even factory wfn to shoot accurate. if all one ever wants is to shoot cast at 1200-1300fps then you are right, however, i want more. though i've not had problems with the 325 360 grain hardcast shooting a bit faster, in fact i've had great results. now, as far as the original question goes, i digressed a touch, but the 460 can get large bore i.e 45 cal ballistics with it's case and so the best loads to me, are the jacket loads in premium bullets that expand and hold together and with that velocity do a tremendous amount of damage. remember lynn thompson's buff hunts with .44 mag jacketed bullets. double the M.E. and use larger tougher bullets and the results are quite awesome. | |||
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| Moderator |
Hang on a second, tradmark, Lynn Thompson's outfitter told us that they experiences little if any expansion from the 300 grain XTPs, thereby allowing them to act as solids. So they really never acted like "expanding" bullets. They obviously worked well because they had enough penetration to reach the vitals -- don't know if they would have if Lynn had been shooting something faster and designed to open up violently. I have to also note that Hornady actually rates the 300 grain .44 mag load at only 1,150 fps velocity at the muzzle. So, their impact velocity (obviously varying) is quite low. I shot a large sow with that load about a month ago, and the hog didn't even react to the shot despite being centerpunched in the heart. That load IMO is not designed to shock anything, but to penetrate well. Maybe not the best example. You didn't just mention ME now did you??????  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| one of us |
I have said this before, so I will say it again. When it comes to hunting, rifle or handgun hunting not enough penetration has caused far more problems, than lack of expansion. Exansion is great IF you still have enough penetration. The problem with handguns, is on tougher game it is hard to get enough penetration, with any measureable expansion. With the exception of game like elephants, heavy for calibre cast bullets do a great job, at a lot less expense and barrel wear. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Bravo, Bravo, very accuratre and to the point    _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| Moderator |
Very well said. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| One of Us |
no i discussed the bullets with him as well and he said, many of them did not open up and acted like solids, whether they did or not...1) they held together 2) they still knocked the buff senseless better than i've seen with rifles in many instances. there were several buff taken with them and they opened, though perhaps not like flying trashcans. they also don't have the nose profile as a solid to actually help penetration the way the lbt style do yet still had adequate penetration and did adequate damage. | |||
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| One of Us |
and if i couldn't get adequate penetration with a barnes load, i'd have to say it'd be elephant, rhino, or hippo, and if you don't use punch bullets on those you're not real sharp. anything with high antimony, or that are from cast performance i'd keep speed down, use A2 alloy or beartooth bullets and they do well up to 1500-1600fps. | |||
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tradmark, how much big game with a handgun have you acctualy taken? Post a few pictures and tell us about the bullets used and how they performed. If you watched the Lynn Thompson video it appeared that he consistently hit high shoulder which means the spine was disrupted and or taken out. Very curious about your BIG game experience _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| Moderator |
Maybe, just maybe one day there will be a cartridge that will be able to cook game upon impact; as most of the highly touted muzzle energy is converted to thermal energy upon impact. The fact that the muzzle energy hype has been developed to sell larger and newer cartridges to the uninformed shooter and novice nimrod continues to be worthy of mention. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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http://24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...r_WFN_GC#Post3909605 _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| Moderator |
Well it's obviously been a brilliant marketing strategy judging by the amount of discussion (not to mention band width) wasted on these forums. And, as useless (M.E.) as rollerskates on a boar hog -- I might add. But I do like the idea of a round that cooks meat -- you could plan all of your hunts around meals....... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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