jwp, been hunting plenty long, in fact, plenty long enough to have had many many pics taken with a regular camera. i'm pretty sure that we've had this conversation before on a few occasions and you start challenging credentials whenever someone disagrees with you. it's quite the irritating trend you have and i'm pretty much gonna say this once, i've shot several buff and and on each hunt were anywhere from 2 to 5 friends along mostly with handguns or large bore leverguns. despite the fact that i had not shot them, it didn't mean my ability to make observations and base opinions on those observations suddenly went away, good thing to, since i do treat people in the ER for gunshots and knife wounds fairly regularly and i didn't shoot them either. i've also shot many many hogs and get to dispatch large cattle at my relatives ranch when one needs to be put down for being or a broke leg or whatnot or in a couple occasions a cranky ole' bull. these were bigger than any wild buff outside of a seladang which i'm pretty sure you haven't shot. don't have photo fest for hogs and deer nor do i do so for cattle that are dispatched, i've posted, or had whitworth post for me a few pics of buffalo taken. anyway, i would've taken a bunch of photos and taken the time to dig apart gut piles if i knew i was gonna be talking to a pissy ole' man with a tendency to act the way you do whenever someone disagrees with them on a computer. that said, as i slowly get my own ranch going perhaps i will gain enough experience for even an elite level hunter here such as yourself.

it's like posting photos of targets, animals or whatever, for all i know they're all at 10 yards and the animals shot are with a 458 win mag.

Now jwp, you need to quit being a "pissy ole' man" and asking if someone is working from experience or observation.

I've observed my wife deliver all but one of my children; still wouldn't call myself competent to give birth, despite the fact that I had not given birth to them, it doesn't mean my ability to make observations and base opinions on those observations suddenly went away .

i'll get some pics of various mounts at the house taken and posted. ms hitman, this has been touched on several times in the past, the point isn't what your little question was about acting from experience but the fact he's thrown this out and been answered before and i've had a few pics posted before. this is done every time someone is not in agreement with him. bfr shooter, whitworth and most here will discuss observations, hunting experiences etc. very few get so snippy and derogatory as has been my experience with jwp. it's like the big bore forums where a ph posts his experiences and a few members start questioning how many he shot vs how many he saw other people shoot. the results are quite easy to see no matter who shot them. delivering a baby is kind of a silly analogy. that said, would you listen to someone that shot 5 cape buff or a ph that was in on the shooting of 100. well how about someone that had shot 5 or 6 buff or someone that shot 4 and was present and in on the hunting of 15 or 16 others? what is the limit of minimal experience one has to have to have enough experience to speak or dare disagree with jwp?


it's silly to begin with, my best friend's dad has hunted the world over and with a little advanced photoshop i could easily be posting photos of cape buff, elephant, lions, and a few grizzly bears and claiming them as pistol kills, however, i'm just discussing and giving my observations based on actual hunts i have been on. i have no idea if that pic in his avatar is him, or if it was created. i could question it's legitimacy completely and never be convinced unless i was there but choose to take him at his word.

I have had scoped Contenders.

And I have had a scope on my FA 475, mainly to allow me to get in into South Africa, and thus to Zim.
I took the scope off when I got to Zim...

But one thing some of my Handgun hunting buddies on AR, it seems, fail to see, is that if you are hunting Primairly with a Handgun [scoped or otherwise] the packability of it changes.

None [well at least not many IMHO ] of these BIG scoped handgun guys are carrying their handguns while RIFLE hunting...

Now even the BIGGEST scoped handgun, esecially in a holster, is easier to carry than a rifle...

The scoped handgun hunter is like a muzzle loader hunter or an archery hunter or a rifle hunter in that the scoped handgun is his Primary hunting "device".

When I hunted bear with my FA 475, and it was not even scoped, I still carried a "handy" handgun, same as I carry a "handy" handgun when I MZ or bow hunt...

I always carry a "Packable Pistol", no matter what my Primary hunting gun is...

Also there is nothing wrong with using a "Packable Pistol" as a Primary hunting gun.

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
it's silly to begin with, my best friend's dad has hunted the world over and with a little advanced photoshop i could easily be posting photos of cape buff, elephant, lions, and a few grizzly bears and claiming them as pistol kills, however, i'm just discussing and giving my observations based on actual hunts i have been on. i have no idea if that pic in his avatar is him, or if it was created. i could question it's legitimacy completely and never be convinced unless i was there but choose to take him at his word.

Yes. you could question the avatar photo and never be convinced of its legitimacy. Many people were never convinced the world is round and went throughout their lives believing they would fall off the edge. No need to talk in circles or trying to change the direction of the discussion. You have either gotten "bloody up to the elbows" determining the damage these bullets do on game or you haven't; simple as that.

I for one will vouch for jwp being absolutely legitimate and credible.......

From this post

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
tradmark, how much big game with a handgun have you acctualy taken? Post a few pictures and tell us about the bullets used and how they performed.

If you watched the Lynn Thompson video it appeared that he consistently hit high shoulder which means the spine was disrupted and or taken out.

Very curious about your BIG game experience

The forum got this reply

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
jwp, been hunting plenty long, in fact, plenty long enough to have had many many pics taken with a regular camera. i'm pretty sure that we've had this conversation before on a few occasions and you start challenging credentials whenever someone disagrees with you. it's quite the irritating trend you have and i'm pretty much gonna say this once, i've shot several buff and and on each hunt were anywhere from 2 to 5 friends along mostly with handguns or large bore leverguns. despite the fact that i had not shot them, it didn't mean my ability to make observations and base opinions on those observations suddenly went away, good thing to, since i do treat people in the ER for gunshots and knife wounds fairly regularly and i didn't shoot them either. i've also shot many many hogs and get to dispatch large cattle at my relatives ranch when one needs to be put down for being or a broke leg or whatnot or in a couple occasions a cranky ole' bull. these were bigger than any wild buff outside of a seladang which i'm pretty sure you haven't shot. don't have photo fest for hogs and deer nor do i do so for cattle that are dispatched, i've posted, or had whitworth post for me a few pics of buffalo taken. anyway, i would've taken a bunch of photos and taken the time to dig apart gut piles if i knew i was gonna be talking to a pissy ole' man with a tendency to act the way you do whenever someone disagrees with them on a computer. that said, as i slowly get my own ranch going perhaps i will gain enough experience for even an elite level hunter here such as yourself.

it's like posting photos of targets, animals or whatever, for all i know they're all at 10 yards and the animals shot are with a 458 win mag.

Never got a reply as to bullets used and how they perform. Since you continuely advocate light for caliber bullets at very high speeds. It is a reasonable request to ask how many head of game shot and how they performed. Most of us started our carreiers in the hunting fields that way and eventualy gravitated to heavier bullets for the largest game.

Then we get this post that again does not address the question

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
i'll get some pics of various mounts at the house taken and posted. ms hitman, this has been touched on several times in the past, the point isn't what your little question was about acting from experience but the fact he's thrown this out and been answered before and i've had a few pics posted before. this is done every time someone is not in agreement with him. bfr shooter, whitworth and most here will discuss observations, hunting experiences etc. very few get so snippy and derogatory as has been my experience with jwp. it's like the big bore forums where a ph posts his experiences and a few members start questioning how many he shot vs how many he saw other people shoot. the results are quite easy to see no matter who shot them. delivering a baby is kind of a silly analogy. that said, would you listen to someone that shot 5 cape buff or a ph that was in on the shooting of 100. well how about someone that had shot 5 or 6 buff or someone that shot 4 and was present and in on the hunting of 15 or 16 others? what is the limit of minimal experience one has to have to have enough experience to speak or dare disagree with jwp?


it's silly to begin with, my best friend's dad has hunted the world over and with a little advanced photoshop i could easily be posting photos of cape buff, elephant, lions, and a few grizzly bears and claiming them as pistol kills, however, i'm just discussing and giving my observations based on actual hunts i have been on. i have no idea if that pic in his avatar is him, or if it was created. i could question it's legitimacy completely and never be convinced unless i was there but choose to take him at his word.

Of course attacking the person that asked the question and then making physcological evaluations over the internet, does not and has not answer the original question

jwp, told ya i'd get pics of some up with the bullets used. i've already done so which was part of my answer in some of the above posts you put up. and it still won't change the fact you ask the same question time and time again when someone disagrees with you, on some issues.

A description of the performance of the bullets used is a great start. You know wound channel, depth of penetration, etc.



Here is the exit wound in the offside rib cage from a 440 grain wide meplat hard cast from the 500 JRH at 950 FPS muzzle velocity

I am holding a 300 win mag for size comparison






Not sure how a light for caliber faster bullet would have been more effective

1) my buff -- weighed about 1100-1200lbs. shot with BB 325 grain loads at 1525 fps clocking out of my 10" model 83 at just under 1600fps. i just got this back from FA getting an incredible trigger job done. ran to the range and quickly got the bb resighted in and took it for the hunt. anyway, first shot was right at around 45 yards quartering away and shot on the right wide just in the rib cage and through the opposite shoulder, the buff jumped and came down turned the other way and i put a matching hole through the left side and out behind the opposite shoulder. next shot the gun went off a touch early due to the new trigger which i need more familiarity with, but it happened while was getting center on the buff and missed slightly to the left as the buff was now about 50 yards away. (i'd always needed to two stage the trigger due to alot of creep and i guess it was a little bit of muscle memory on that one. the buff then went down and i decided to spine him right where the spine meets the skull and he took a look to the left spewing blood out of his nose and gave me the perfect angle so i hit him in the neck finishing the job. total elapsed time of shots was apporximately 40 seconds. the last one was at about 30 yards as we walked up.

upon cleaning the buff the first shot traveled about 3 feet of buff due to the quartering angle and blew the front shoulder to pieces. the guide had thought i missed due to the bullet skipping off like it hadn't slowed going through the buff at all. no bullets were recovered as they all just blew through the buff. second shot just punched through the ribs hitting no big bones and the third about completely crushed and vaporized the vertebra hit from the side. it was in about 100 pieces. the shoulder was not shot through the scapula in was in the leg bone just above what would be the elbow/knee joint. it was shattered in about 30 pieces.

2) another in our group shot his which went about 800lbs with a guide gun with BB 430gr hardcast at 1935 fps. two shots through the shoulder at about 70 yards about an inch apart and the buff was down and dead in about 20 seconds. the same big leg bone was hit by one of the bullets on the way in and it was blown to bits. the size of the entrance and exit wounds in the rib cage were much much bigger than .45 caliber. the entrance wounds were about the size of a nickel and the exit the size of a quarter.

3) another one shot with a .375 HH in the shoulder and the buff finished in another couple of seconds with a neck shot. no bullets recovered. used 260 grain noslers in it and they expanded big time and put holes through the rib cage about the size of the .45/70. no difference in the reaction of buff or how long it took to go down but just wasted alot more meat from the shoulders. no saving those for anything. bullet in the neck vertebrae nearly vaporized the vertebrae but there were bullet pieces from the jacket mixed with the bone fragments. no finding the bullet base either as that had passed through.

4) the last of our group was my brother who came and he is in a wheelchair but still wanted to handgun hunt a buff with a pistol and used a 629 .44 mag. being in a wheelchair he had consented to using a rifle and we thought he'd use the guide gun but when after waiting for hours in some brush one of the buff came into range of his pistol and one problem. i had only brought hornady leverevolution .44 mag bullets for my son to use on a ram or axis. no hardcast. he had resigned to the rifle and left his .44. after a little begging i handed him my son's .44 and the hornadays. first shot went throught perfect quartering away, two more and the buff was down. he shot great and i had expected to finish the buff off with the guide gun when the hornaday's failed but on cleaing the buff the first shot went through breaking the opposite shoulder and took out the lungs and the buff's aorta as well. was perhaps a total of a minute for the shots as one of the other bulls milled around in the way trying to get it up. the bullet recovered in the offside hide and the exit wound had bone fragments blown out through it. the bullet began life as a 225grain bullets with the polymer tip. i weighed it today and it weighed 210 grains. surprising performance from those and i'd not hesitate to use them on deer and say a cow elk. the hardcast obviously would've exited but i'm not sure they'd have worked better. btw,this buff weighed almost 1500lbs.

5) last one was another guy needed a follow up as he had shot his with a 300mag two days later. evidently he had lost confidence in his hornady sst's. (poor choice on a buff) he used my friend's guide gun and BB to finish the job. only shot he got was a running texas heart shot on the buff and the bullet entered in the left ham and was found just shy of the right ear in the hide. it traversed the buff and crushed about 4 feet of vertebrae before it rested in the hide behind the ear. bullet quite deformed but not broken apart. weighed it today and it weighed 370 grains. i honestly believe that load at another 200fps less would've exited as bullet deformation would've been less but nonetheless, good results. bull dropped like a sack of taters.


here's the post from last years buff hunt. i've actually got wound channel pics from that hunt and can post some, somewhat limited as my camera and skill is not what some here is.we also shot a couple of the buff when down on the ground for penetration tests which were interesting. then there was this years hunt which we did not do much photographing due to the driving rain in which the hunt took place in and we couldn't get good pics in the dark skinning shed and meatlocker.

The bullet choices that you used and the performance follow what I would have expected and your evaluation is valid in my IMHO and experience

trademark

Was that 350gr Buffalo Bore load their jacketed Hollow Point? [If so I am pretty sure it is a Hawk bullet].

i've also got pics that will show an elk, also shot in mild rain unfortunately which show the results of my bud shooting a 45/70 with a detuned load we use in our 45/70's and with a cast performance 420 grain bullet at 1360fps avg chrony velocity. the first shot which was into the cow elks left shoulder blew into a thousands pieces and took out one lung. need a second shot which performed perfectly and put her down for good which showed a wound channel as a good big bore hardcast should. interesting b/c it was a reduced load from the BB load at 1950 fps which chrony'd out of the guide gun around 1840fps which worked well. just simply a bad batch and brittle bullets.

on the casull load in is a 325gr lfn and on the guide gun 45/70 it's a 435 lbt but appears a touch like a keith bullet/lbt combo.

well, i'll get the pics posted soon, also a pic of a cow elk hunt i had in 2000 shot with an .06 and bullet failure and finished with a hornady 300gr xtp on the run at about 70 yards. ko'd nose first, but more on that later. i'm gonna hold off on more posts. 60 hour shift in the ER this weekend and no sleep getting cranky and obviously was so with some of my posts, my apologies.

bad week this week as well, running reaaaaaly low on patience but unfortunately not patients. haha.

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
on the casull load in is a 325gr lfn and on the guide gun 45/70 it's a 435 lbt but appears a touch like a keith bullet/lbt combo.

Sorry when I saw BB 350gr I was thinking of the 475Linebaugh as I have some of his 350 JHP loads.

those work like a champ on hogs and elk, wouldn't hesitate on buff.

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
those work like a champ on hogs and elk, wouldn't hesitate on buff.

Which one, the LFN or the Hawk? I don't particularly care for Hawk bullets. They tend to be really soft and I have seen the cores separate on way too many occasions. I think there are better options than Hawk bullets if one absolutely insists on using an expanding bullet. Maybe they have improved their designs.......

not hawk bullets, i don't like'em. no the hardcasts are great, but i have really come to prefer the wfn 360 grain out of the casull. that said, i also wouldn't hesitate with the softpoints in the .475 if they're like the ones they use in the .454 they're basically the same as the ones freedom arms used to use, the pics i'm sending has a pic of a large bull elk shot in the gila by a friend with his 83 454 casull with those bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
not hawk bullets, i don't like'em. no the hardcasts are great, but i have really come to prefer the wfn 360 grain out of the casull. that said, i also wouldn't hesitate with the softpoints in the .475 if they're like the ones they use in the .454 they're basically the same as the ones freedom arms used to use, the pics i'm sending has a pic of a large bull elk shot in the gila by a friend with his 83 454 casull with those bullets.

The WFN or the WLFN? Both are good choices, I have used the WLFN the most by far and realy like it in the 454 as well

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
not hawk bullets, i don't like'em. no the hardcasts are great, but i have really come to prefer the wfn 360 grain out of the casull. that said, i also wouldn't hesitate with the softpoints in the .475 if they're like the ones they use in the .454 they're basically the same as the ones freedom arms used to use, the pics i'm sending has a pic of a large bull elk shot in the gila by a friend with his 83 454 casull with those bullets.

The Freedom 300 grain jacketed flat-points were great bullets -- Wincheste later used the same bullet but unfortunately discontinued them.