I have a .44 Remington Magnum in a Ruger Super Blackhawk that I carry on my hip when in the backcountry of Wyoming and Idaho. I have always kept it stoked with 300 grain Nosler bullets, but am wondering if I shouldn't be using something different. In rank order 1 - 3 what would be your preferred bullet if self defense from a mountain grizzly was your concern?

Thanks.

First off, I will say that I have never shot a grizzly. That said, you want lots of penetration which in the case of a handgun means a heavy, flat-nosed hardcast bullet. Expanding bullets don't penetrate realiably enough for my taste. It would be your last ditch gun, so I would go with a 300 - 320 WFN of some sort........

If my life was on the line I would want Belt Mountain Bullets.

Grizzly Cartridge loads them in short and long versions to fit all guns.


http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/-strse-11/44-MAG-%28long%29-300/Detail.bok
http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/-strse-12/44-MAG-%28short%29-300/Detail.bok

Hard cast from 300 to 320 gr. So I guess I would be seconding Whitworth again...

I agree a heavy hard cast bullet.
In "factory ammo" Garretts, Buffalo Bore, Cor-Bon, and Federal 300gr Cast Core, Grizzly Cartridge, all would be a good choice.

I load a 315 gr gas checked from a lee mold dropped in a 5 gallon bucket of water. A couple of freinds of mine have shot black bears with this load and beg for more ammo. I shot a 350 lb hog with dropped him on the spot.

I like because it cheap and works well

Heavy wide flat point hard cast is the ticket.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Heavy wide flat point hard cast is the ticket.

I do believe that we have a unanimous decision.......

I agree with the others but will add that what your allready using would probably work also.

For the most part, inland grizzlies are about the same size as large black bears. They aren't 1000# coastal brown bears. For defensive purposes, I have no problem with those that want to use heavy WFN or LFN cast bullets. I have no problem with using jacketed softnose or JHP .44 Magnum bullets. Any of them will turn a bear, and any of them in the hands of a cool shooter will kill the bears we're talking about in defensive situations, armchair theory aside.

Having said all that, my bear HUNTING handguns are .475 Linebaughs.

The only thing I might add to the above is, if it was me, I would want a double action revolver instead of the single action.

Just a preferrence. I want it to go "bang" every time I pull the trigger when the adrenalin is flowing.

I wouldn't be worried carrying what you now carry, the 300 grains Nosler Partition round.

If you want a good hard cast, go to www.beartoothbullets.com and look at their gas check LBTs. I've used them in .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, and .45 Colt. They perform flawlessly.

L.W.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Heavy wide flat point hard cast is the ticket.

I do believe that we have a unanimous decision.......

Now that we have a consensus, let me expand the question a little.

When confronted with a defensive shooting situation, the range will be close and the bear pointed directly at you. What should be your aiming point and what do you intend for the terminal ballistics?

Lost Sheep

dont worry. If it ever happens you surely not going to be thinking about where your placing your bullet. If you can do that your a better man then me.

Shoot where the bear is. Hitting big parts is better than hitting small parts.

quote:

When confronted with a defensive shooting situation, the range will be close and the bear pointed directly at you. What should be your aiming point and what do you intend for the terminal ballistics?

Think lead in the head

In a handgun for defensive purposes with a bear I am looking for a heavy bullet that will not deform or deflect when hitting the hardest and largest bones at an angle and continue to go straight while giving the most penetration to hit vitals at any angle. Thus the belt mountain bullets. If a bullet is $5 or 25 cents will it matter if you are being charged? Shoot cheap bullets for target and use bullets like I described when your life MAY depend on it.

I've lived in this particular home for just over two years. For the first time, about 2-1/2 weeks ago, a grizzly was two houses down and across the street -- perhaps 40 yards away. Through my binocular it was fearfully imposing.

I suggest your biggest problem will be fear. I have 480 Rugers and 475 Linebaugh FA. I gotta tell yuh, at the time of viewing, these were not enough gun. Neither were my 45-70 or 348 WCF. I've begun making inquiries regarding cost of 475 Turnbull and 50 Express.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
In a handgun for defensive purposes with a bear I am looking for a heavy bullet that will not deform or deflect when hitting the hardest and largest bones at an angle and continue to go straight while giving the most penetration to hit vitals at any angle. Thus the belt mountain bullets. If a bullet is $5 or 25 cents will it matter if you are being charged? Shoot cheap bullets for target and use bullets like I described when your life MAY depend on it.

I don't see that much of a difference between the hard cast bullets and the punch bullets, what's a few more inches when a hard cast will almost go head to tail. I will stick to hard cast bullets.

I may be crazy but when I was in Yosemite (The wild back country) I got prety close to the biggest black bear I have ever seen. It looked like a grizz it was so big. i would have loved to shoot it. I get focused under preasure. Something about A.D.D. and adrenaline.

here is the pic

If I had a $5000.00 trophy fee on the line, I would certainly use punch bullets, but at the velocities we are driving bullets from our revolvers, good hardcast bullets are very reliable and maintain their integrity. Boomy, these things will break bones and show no real blemishes. There is nothing inherently unreliable about hardcast bullets. If our velocities were higher -- a lot higher, no doubt the Punch would get the nod as being able to handle higher impact velocities.

Yes 99% of the time the hardcast will act flawlessly but it is the 1% that will mess with my mind. I admit it is a mental thing if things that can bite back is on the menu...

But I guess that is why you empty the cylinder

With high SD hardcast from a 45-70 I would not worry so much about tumbling due to deformation of a short bullet.

I have been hunting with a handgun since the 70s and flat point hard cast bullets have worked each and every time 100% perfection

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
I have been hunting with a handgun since the 70s and flat point hard cast bullets have worked each and every time 100% perfection

I could not agree more. Hard to beat a proven method.

Can I get an 'AMEN'?!

Where to aim? "Aim for fur" - any hit is better than no hit.

If you have time, aim for the center of the skull or chest - a head shot that penetrates "might" drop him instantly, a chest shot "might" break a shoulder or punch through the heart, but won't reliably stop him in his tracks.

Nothing will....

I agree a DA would be a better choice for a bear carry gun. I carry a home made Alaskan .480 with hand loaded hard cast 400 gr at 1035 fps. Great penetration, fairly easy to shoot.

John Davies
Spokane WA

I've shot some big animals, including bear, with a 44 mag. Conclusions: I will never use any JHP standard cup and core bullet again, no matter what the hype on it says. WFN 300gr cast style work great, lots of penitration, actually recovered one, after it smashed up both sholders of a small bull moose. I probably could have reloased the bullet...

My varorite though is the 250gr Nosler Partition. The bullet seems to penitrate as well as the WFN cast and seems to make a bigger "mess" inside. Nasty entrance wounds and equally nasty exits, wonderful.

I would be happy with either except that the 300gr at 1225fps produces vile recoil in my 4&5/8 revolver and the 250 at 1325fps is at the limits of managable for me. Also, I have a great >900fps cast load with Trail Boss that produces great accuracy and almost the same POI as the Nosler's. Unfortunately the 300 gr cast bullets hit significantly higher than either the practice load or the Partitions. SO, I chose a hunting load and practice load that are compatable.

Flat point hard cast work to perfedtion

I jsut had one instance where a hard cast bullet did something strange.
I had shot a cow elk with my 06 improved and she was still struggling to get away when I got there , and as her head and neck was not a stable target I shot her again behind the left shoulder with my 45LC loaded with 250 grain hard cast flat nose bullets.
It did the deed but upon skinning her I noticed that her right front leg was broken right above the knee, but the 180 grain partition had been through the lungs and there was no bullet hole in her leg.
So upon skinning her I found half of the hard cast had hit her off shoulder and broke straight in two lengthwise and half had traveled down her leg and broke it above the knee..
Since then I have heard other stories of hard cast bullets breaking.
Has anyone else ever encountered such a thing?

If the bullet is too hard it can break up. Do you know the hardness of your bullet?

Yup, if a hardcast bullet is too hard it can be brittle. But splitting down the middle is awfully strange!

My bro has a casting method that one can see a 'cold' occlusion/fusion line running thru some of the bullets. Shows up on the bigger bullets only. Uncertain the cause but suspect mold/alloy to be on the cool side ~ and what about the ones that are not visible? I no longer load/use his stuff. I wait til he leaves and melt'em down.

Upon rereading what I wrote I made a mistake, it was not that half of the bullet hit her shoulder and split, it was the the bullet hit her off shoulder and split in half.
Too much coffee this morning..

I will have to check in my reloading room to see if I still have some of those bullets, I do remember that they were just a bulk box of 500 that I had bought.
Although I had shot plenty from the same outfit in 44 with no problems I do remember.

And yes what really made me think it was odd was that it did split lengthwise.
I have had hard cast break in two pieces from shooting into a dirt backstop, but never lengthwise.
It certainly must have been caused by being a little too hard, I do recall thinking that it looked like it had just shattered.
It probably did not help that I was very close and I had it loaded to the gills..

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Yup, if a hardcast bullet is too hard it can be brittle. But splitting down the middle is awfully strange!

A common failing with bullets that are too hard from too much Linotype. It happen to a frined of mine on an Eland. Wayne made his bullets for the 500 Maximum with Linotype and the bullet split. 1/2 of the bullet hit the heart and did thrick, always use "enough bullet", but better yet use the proper bullet of proper hardness and perfection is yours

I have used Buffalo bore's 340 gr and Garrett's 310 & 330 and I would trust any of these loads to do the job. My Ruger SRH Alaskan's cylinder is always full of BB's 340's and my 4 5/8" Ruger SBH is always topped off with the 310 Garrett's. Any of them will exit a good size hog from any angle....that much I do know!

The Garrett 330 doesn't group too well in my Alaskan but their 310 is good in all my revolvers. Most folks get good groups with the 330 though.

BTW, the Buffalo Bore 340 & Garrett 330 feel like .454's when you touch'em off. There is a BIG difference in recoil between them and ANY .44 mag load that I've shot. Since firepower control could be a big issue in a bear defense situation, the Garrett 310 gr load may be the best option as it's more controllable. You may have to shoot one handed!! I can empty my RSR Alaskan nearly twice as fast with the 310's as I can the 330 or BB 340 loads. I have no experience with Garrett's reduced defence load but it seems too light for use on big bears IMO.

You may want to try the Punch bullets too if you have the $$$$. They ain't cheap but they penetrate very well.

Best of luck!

quote:

Originally posted by srshooter:
I have used Buffalo bore's 340 gr and Garrett's 310 & 330 and I would trust any of these loads to do the job. My Ruger SRH Alaskan's cylinder is always full of BB's 340's and my 4 5/8" Ruger SBH is always topped off with the 310 Garrett's. Any of them will exit a good size hog from any angle....that much I do know!

The Garrett 330 doesn't group too well in my Alaskan but their 310 is good in all my revolvers. Most folks get good groups with the 330 though.

BTW, the Buffalo Bore 340 & Garrett 330 feel like .454's when you touch'em off. There is a BIG difference in recoil between them and ANY .44 mag load that I've shot. Since firepower control could be a big issue in a bear defense situation, the Garrett 310 gr load may be the best option as it's more controllable. You may have to shoot one handed!! I can empty my RSR Alaskan nearly twice as fast with the 310's as I can the 330 or BB 340 loads. I have no experience with Garrett's reduced defence load but it seems too light for use on big bears IMO.

You may want to try the Punch bullets too if you have the $$$$. They ain't cheap but they penetrate very well.

Best of luck!

Good advice, srshooter!

Punch bullets are expensive but are actually cheap insurance. They CAN NOT FAIL. Cast bullets can. If you cast your own you can control some things that cause failure but if your buying them your at the mercy of the bullet caster and many times its a 18 year old kid casting for minimum wage. As to the differnce in penetration. Ive tested lots of bullets for Kelly and youd be amazed at how much better then penetrate. Especially if your pushing your cast bullets over 1300 fps. In a rifle at rifle velocitys theres just no comparison between the two. They can be as much of an improvement as cast is over jacketed. If i was hunt deer, elk, moose or buffalo id have to agree that there probably not nessisary but if im going to face something dangerous with a handgun that is underpowered (all handguns are underpowered for that purpose) the 3 bucks or so that he charges for a bullet is pretty cheap insurance. A hard cast bullet and i dont care who casted it or what its casted out of can deform if it hits a big bone at an odd angle. A punch bullet will never deform. Ive yet to shoot one into anything softer then steel that couldnt have been reloaded and shot again if it was recovered. It doesnt take much deforming to cause a cast bullet to do funny things in penetration testing and if and when i was facing a bear i dont care if there is a one in a million chance that bullet is going to dive out of an animal i dont want it happening. A guy can buy enough of them for a couple hundred bucks to last a lifetime if you only use them when there really called for and i guess i have to chuckle at someone that will spend a couple grand on a custom sixgun but balks at spending a couple hundred bucks to optimize his setup. to me its about like spending 2 grand on a gun and leaving a 5 lb trigger to save 200 bucks.

I think that a bit of nose expansion on a GOOD cast bullet could be helpful. None of the loads I mentioned will fail to get to a charging bear's vitals. I'm confident in saying that.

That said, if your goal is to find the best penetrating .44 mag around....the BMB Punch Bullet is probably the best bullet I know of.

Consider that...... People used to kill bears and other dangerous beasts with front stuffers and they were happy because their fathers used a bow and arrow.

Before that people killed bears with a bow and arrow and were glad because their poor old dads used a spear.

So on and so on.... Today we quibble about a couple inches of penetration, 100 fps velocity, and the superiority of one cartridge/firearm over a dozen others that are nearly identical and with all being capable of shooting through a big bear from nearly any conceivable angle.

Use a spear and get back to basics....better yet just RASSLE the joker to death!!!

Just having some fun!

With so many good choices out there today, it might be harder to find a bad choice than a good one.